High School math...having a nervous breakdown and messing up dd....

[Robin in DFW]

I have posted quite a few times before about our high school math troubles.

 

My dd15 is currently working through Saxon Algebra 1 after starting and dropping several other programs. I am NOT mathmatically inclined and really can't offer her much help.

 

We have tried Lial's Intro Alg (she couldn't get through the long lessons and really struggled). We have used Teaching Textbooks (she thought this was completely opposite Lial's and was too easy). So after all these wasted efforts, we finally got a Saxon Algebra 1 set with the new teaching cd-rom. She is doing "okay". Not great, but decent. But...it's been a struggle to really get the new material down because of the incremental method. I think this method makes a subject harder for some kids. I'm wondering if she needs to do something that focuses on one topic at a time, aiming for mastery.

 

I do have another college algebra book my oldest dd had to use. It is called Beginning Algebra by John Tobey and Jeffrey Slater. It is a regular approach to Algebra with normal chapters. The lessons are shorter than the Lial's book she tried.

 

I am in desperate need of advice. Dd REALLY needs to finish Algebra 1 and move on to Geometry. If necessary, she can do Algebra 1 and Geometry concurrently. I have TT Geometry, which I've heard is better than their Algebra books.

 

I think I am having a nervous breakdown over this. All other subjects seem to be fine and we don't have this trouble. But math...OY!

 

Thanks for your help,

Robin

[langfam]

Have you looked at Chalkdust?

 

Dana Mosely is a superb teacher, in my opinion. I like that he's very organized in his presentation. I like that he's very thorough and does not make assumptions about what a student might/might not understand and therefore does not make leaps in teaching a concept. He's very methodical. He does not skip steps. I like that he might review a concept a little before teaching a new one to refresh the student's memory. He can be quite animated and is therefore not boring.

 

Having said that, the Larson textbook itself will be much like Lial's. I know that are many ladies here who can give you better suggestions.

[Cindy in WA]

Since you said she is doing ok, I wouldn't switch again, unless it was to go back to TT. Starting a whole new program would be frustrating to me if I was the student. If she can get through Saxon, then just keep going. If it is overwhelming her, return to TT.

 

TT seems easy, but if you stick with the program everything is covered quite well. I believe they've done an excellent job simplifying the presentation, but not the material.

 

Cindy

[Tullia]

but I've btdt, and do sympathize. I did not even try to use Saxon for high school because my math knowledge was too stale and their sequence of presenting material was confusing. Is outsourcing/tutoring a possibility for you?

 

If not, what I'd suggest is that you pick the curriculum that works best for you as teacher.

 

Also, do you have time to sit down every day, go through each lesson and work at least a few problems?

 

The thing that helped me more than anything has been going over daily work to analyze wrong answers. It's critical to be able to differentiate whether wrong answers arise from carelessness or lack of understanding.

 

I think, too, that what makes the difference in math understanding/ good test scores is finding ways to go beyond simply doing the minimum daily requirement of one successfully completed math lesson. That's not easy for folks like me who can think of all kinds of ways to get extra mileage out of other subjects, but math. :confused:

[langfam]

Maybe she could do TT Algebra 1 with Geometry. That will keep up her Alg. skills, while doing geometry and she'll be easily prepared for Alg 2. My DD did TT Geometry and would often double up on her lessons because they weren't too long.

[Veronica in VA]

If you feel she needs more practice, maybe look at either the Algebra Survival Guide or Keys to Algebra. My ds had a little trouble understanding factoring. We used keys for just that particular area, and he got it. So you could keep using Saxon, just use of the above for additional problems.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Veronica

[Robin in DFW]

I have gone over different scenarios a bazillion times...my head hurts!!!

 

I have offered to get TT Algebra 1 for her again, but she thinks it is too simplistic. I think it is just the way the material is presented. She actually had problems with TT...she says it moved too slow and she made careless mistakes because it was too easy...I don't know...I see the same kinds of mistakes with Saxon...carelessness.

 

I do grade her work and look at what types of mistakes she makes. Usually, they are just careless mistakes. Some of them are due to lack of enough practice on a topic, ocassionally it is due to lack of understanding...her answers will be way off...not even in the ballpark of the solutions manual. I have her correct everything she misses and she is able to find her mistakes, but geez...getting through the lessons is SO tedious and she does have to flip back A LOT to refresh her memory. This just seems like such a painful way to learn something that really shouldn't be THAT hard.

 

In looking over the Beginning Algebra book I have on hand, these lessons seem almost easy compared to Saxon. I guess because it is presented one topic at a time rather than all willy-nilly like Saxon. I have to say that scatteredness really bothers me. I am an overly orderly person and like to have all my ducks in a row, IYKWIM.

 

I don't really want to switch programs again, but I just don't think she is really understanding some of the things Saxon is teaching, even with the new cd-rom teacher. I personally don't think it is all that great, but she says it's okay.

 

I hesitate to go back to TT because of all the bad publicity the program gets here on these boards. That bad publicity is why we switched AGAIN a few months ago. I'm so scared she won't have the appropriate textbooks listed on her transcripts...

 

Thanks,

Robin

[langfam]

I don't have any advice, just sharing my experience. DS #2 really struggled with Saxon Alg. 1/2, so we moved him to Jacob's Algebra in 8th and he hit walls too, but was way less frustrated than when he was using Saxon.

 

At any rate, we stopped Jacob's and have been working through Key to Algebra and he's doing well with it. He is going to redo Alg 1 in 9th grade using Chalkdust.

 

I don't know if this quote from Dana Mosely of Chalkdust will help you, but it helps me to put things in perspective:

 

Lack of retention is not an unusual condition and it is quite often age related; that is, it goes away remarkably quickly once the child reaches some elusive and unpredictable level of maturity. Don't be too concerned if your child can't remember how to solve a simple linear equation after knowing the concept just two weeks ago.

It is true that math is generally foundational in nature; that is, concepts in an early chapter will likely be used to some degree in later chapters, so retention is certainly desirable. But too much emphasis on knowing all previous material can actually contribute to the problem. The way to deal with it is to test frequently and when previous information is needed but forgotten, simply review it without making a big deal out of it.

On a larger scale, lack of retention is the main reason for using the spiral approach in teaching. If you are unfamiliar with the spiral approach, it involves the use of previously learned material to develop new material. An example in Algebra 2 is the topic of factoring. Factoring in Algebra 2 includes methods learned in Algebra 1 plus a couple of more advanced methods.

The spiral approach in teaching from one grade level to another is nothing more than review in a wide time frame, a time frame so wide that students are expected to forget. Why should we expect complete retention in tighter time frames. What is the magic time frame for complete retention? The answer is, it depends on the student, and it changes with age.

 

[MaryM]

Okay, I am only going by what you said in your post and what my own experiences have been BUT maybe it's not as horrible as it seems!!

 

If her mistakes are not reflecting an inability to grasp the conceptual parts of the material and they are those pesky careless arithmetic things, then you are not in dire straits, imho. I think that sometimes, kids who can grasp the material conceptually rather easily need to be pushed past the point of comfort before they start taking seriously the arithmetic mistakes or so it was with our dc. The "clue" was that she said she finds TT slow and tedious; I've heard that in this house too. We didn't go with it because of that BUT there is no reason to bag the program if she can work through the book more quickly without the DVD, let her do it. But, just make her start correcting her won work if she isn't already and then MAKE her redo everything where she made an arithmetic mistake. She will soon tire of having to do that, I suspect and take the time upfront to do it right. But, I'd also suggest setting the bar high or higher and then giving two "grades" for the assignment showing what she got flat out and then what she got ignoring the arithmetic mistakes. Forget about how long it takes and start your day with math. However, make her do the corrections on her own "free time".

 

Sign her up for the daily SAT questions too! And, have her take a practice test, math only maybe with one of the online prep sites that are free (number2 or something like that - others will know the correct name...)

 

It's a risk to say this but I think she sounds fully capable of doing the work but has fallen in to some bad mental habits. Mix up her schedule or pattern a tad and see what you get. She is likely tuning in to some of your anxiety over this as well so mask that as best you can and just become the task master for awhile. It's worth a shot and changing programs seldom improves a student's math performance, imo. Sticking with it and grinding it out does though.

 

You can do it! Good luck and please feel free to totally ignore any of this post as well!!

 

Mary

[Chris in PA]

I hesitate to go back to TT because of all the bad publicity the program gets here on these boards. That bad publicity is why we switched AGAIN a few months ago. I'm so scared she won't have the appropriate textbooks listed on her transcripts...

 

Robin,

I too have math struggles with my dc and am no expert. I posted here this past weekend about my oldest. She is my mathy kid and has been doing Saxon. My middle dd is not a math kid. She can do it but is more creative and loves writing and art. We started TT last year with her (prealgebra) and it has been great for her. No more crying about math. I tried TT Algebra 2 with my oldest and she hated it (too wordy for her). What I am trying to say is take the words of wisdom on this board with a grain of salt. I am learning to do that. Does your dd want to pursue a math or science career? If not then TT may be fine for her. I am planning on using the Chalkdust SAT math prep for all my dc. I understand that SAT math is very different. If your dd felt TT was too easy maybe doubling up Algebra I and Geometry as was suggested might be more challenging for her. You could also supplement with problems from Lial's.

 

HTH

[Robin in DFW]

Thanks for asking about dd interests...

 

At this point she is interested in Veterinary Medicine. The thing is "medical" math is very different from say...engineering math or other more math intensive science fields (physics comes to mind).

 

My older dd19 is going to be a nurse and her math classes are nothing mind-boggling. As math "stupid" as I am, I could get through these math classes.

 

I think dd15 could probably get by with a less...okay here it comes...rigorous math program based on her older sister's experience with nursing. I personally wish she would just finish up TT Algebra 1 and do their geometry concurrently. Then do TT Algebra 2 in 11th and the PreCalc in 12th. This was our original plan, but because I have these panic episodes and I cave to math peer pressure (LOL) we are now behind and will have to double up the Alg 1 and Geom. no matter what.

 

Dd15 will not finish Saxon Alg 1 until Thanksgiving. She does 1 lesson a day M-F...she has a very intense soccer schedule, so working on weekends is out. We are this behind with the Saxon because of all the switching. And now I am having fears about even getting through the Advanced Math since everyone says this book is nearly impossible to complete!!!

 

Maybe like several of you have suggested, using the TT Alg 1 and Geom. at the same time would be a bit more challenging and would work.

 

Right now I am very dissappointed in myself for not being more firm in my decisions and for reading the posts about TT a few months ago. I know this is the only forum where TT gets a bad rap, but everyone here seems so capable and knowledgeable that I take their opinions probably too much to heart. I am just about ready to cry. It's been a trying few months.

 

I appreciate all your suggestions.

Robin

[langfam]

:grouphug:

Maybe you shouldn't worry too much about what others say on these boards about TT. I believe many kids have done fine with it.

[mama25angels]

:grouphug: believe me when I say I understand

[Chris in PA]

I think dd15 could probably get by with a less...okay here it comes...rigorous math program based on her older sister's experience with nursing. I personally wish she would just finish up TT Algebra 1 and do their geometry concurrently. Then do TT Algebra 2 in 11th and the PreCalc in 12th. This was our original plan, but because I have these panic episodes and I cave to math peer pressure (LOL) we are now behind and will have to double up the Alg 1 and Geom. no matter what.

 

Why not go back to and stick with your original plan? It sounds like a good one to me? I think you would feel much better. Don't let other opinions sway you from your original plan. I have come to the place where I know that there are folks on this board who have dc who are extremely gifted, those with dc who struggle to lean basic math facts and all of us in between. You need to do what is right for your family and your dc.

 

Dd15 will not finish Saxon Alg 1 until Thanksgiving. She does 1 lesson a day M-F...she has a very intense soccer schedule, so working on weekends is out. We are this behind with the Saxon because of all the switching. And now I am having fears about even getting through the Advanced Math since everyone says this book is nearly impossible to complete!!!

 

My dd15 really struggled this year getting through Saxon Algebra 2. We are doing TT geometry in the fall. I am terrified of their adv. math. I am actually considering making a switch to Chalkdust for precalculus. I think she hit a wall with Saxon this past school year.

 

Right now I am very dissappointed in myself for not being more firm in my decisions and for reading the posts about TT a few months ago. I know this is the only forum where TT gets a bad rap, but everyone here seems so capable and knowledgeable that I take their opinions probably too much to heart. I am just about ready to cry. It's been a trying few months.

 

Please don't cry. You can do this. Make a decision and then stay the course. I know my dc have a complaint about everything we use.

 

 

For what it's worth, my dd13 never used the CDs for prealgebra. She worked through the text at her own pace. She tends to make silly arithmetic mistakes but I have discovered that she is a right brain learner and she may always make "silly" mistakes. We just go over the problems where gets the wrong answer. She will usually say "oh, I know what I did. I meant to..... and I .....".

 

HTH

[dtsmamtj]

Well, you won't hear anything negative from me or our oldest daughter. This past year we had no tears and she LEARNED her math with confidence and success. I will take that over a specific curriculum name on her transcript any day. When we switched I had her test out of about the first 1/3 of the book finish the rest of the assignments and she was very excited yesterday when TT Algebra 1 came in the mail. She finds it much easier to "understand" than Abeka or Saxon.

 

T

[Kimberly in Sedona]

Sometimes I think they are just not ready. It is not always the program(s) as much as just not being ready.

 

Two of mine were not ready for Algebra I the first time we tried it....and we did try many programs over the course of a year with the oldest...took a step back and decided to take a math break. Eventually it all just clicked....and she went on to do fine in college math courses.

 

That being said, finding the "right" math program for your child is an adventure and a blessing when you do find it!!

 

Best wishes!!

[JenGeorgia]

We also tried several programs (Videotext, Abeka, Chalkdust--hadn't heard of Teaching Textbooks three years ago or I probably would have tried that!) and finally returned to Saxon because I liked it best. In desperation (and to give myself a break) after stumbling through most of Algebra 2, I had him do Aleks for four or five months.

 

He was frustrated with it at first because his "careless" mistakes meant he didn't master things very quickly--and he had to work until he had X number of things completed each day! Finally, he learned he couldn't cheat the system and he buckled down and began applying all of the rules (signs, order of operaton, etc.) he was either to lazy or too in a rush to apply and he made serious headway.

 

When we went back to Saxon a while later, instead of missing half of the problems because of making careless errors he was getting 90% or better on the lessons! Whew!

[Tullia]

I ruled out some curricula solely because I could not teach from them effectively. Then I chose from among those that I could use based on what would work best for my son's particular issues.

 

I would not place too much stock on the bad publicity about TT on these boards. No curriculum is perfect for all people, all situations, or all individual goals. I know people whose children are/have done well with TT. Results vary. Not all of those people hang out here. Some who do are afraid to speak up. I try to stay out of curriculum wars because most folks who post in contentious curriculum threads tend to offer subjective impressions which may or may not apply to you.

 

All curricula have downsides. The key is knowing what they are and being aware that you may have to compensate down the road. I do know this; I'd rather have a student learn a less rigorous curriculum well than have a poorly mastered rigorous textbook on the transcript. One of the good things about standardized testing is that it can serve to validate you curriculum choice.

 

All that said, the biggest thing in my son's turnaround came from outside the math curriculum itself. He loved chemistry, but struggled with the math at first. It was his desire to excel in Chemistry that helped him more than anything that we did about math curriculum. I liked the suggestion about the SAT question of the day. My son does not care for SAT math because he thinks it's tricky, but your dd might like the challenge. Things can turn around. Math is still my son's weakest subject, but he's doing so much better than a couple of years ago when I was in tears almost daily about math. We're still trying to figure out how to get him able to work quickly enough to demonstrate what he does know on those pesky standardized tests.

[Robin in DFW]

I really appreciate all the support and suggestions. I have presented the various options to dd. She and I are both thinking things over.

 

Another reason for my panic has been our fear of not having the appropriate textbooks for NCAA approval. Dd plays some serious soccer and according to her club coaches WILL play college soccer.

 

After reading all your helpful replies, I called NCAA. Guess what??? TT products are ALL on the approved NCAA textbook list. This also helped calm me.

 

I think we will go back to TT and follow it to the end. I think WE will be most success with this. It is manageable.

 

Thanks again,

Robin

[sabrina]

How far along into Saxon are you? I have found that it is very random feeling at first but after a while you start seeing the logic in the order. You just sort of come full circle over and over again. My ds really seems to hate all the practice and repetition of saxon but just this year something seems to have clicked in him.

At some point he discovered that the odd answers were in the back of the book. He thought that this was great until I discovered where he had erased his wrong answer and placed the right answer in it's place with no work to support it. When he realized that that was not going to float in our home he realized that checking his answers could help him with those silly math mistakes. He now checks every other problem and goes back and finds where his mistake is. I find him really trying to figure out what he did wrong and fixing it independently. He is taking less time to go through his mixed practice and seems to almost enjoy it.

If you are very far into the program I would not give up on it. It may not be a fun way to do math but the curriculum is very sound mathematically. I would actually recommend Jacob's for an algebra text and Saxon if you struggle with math.

Another thing to consider is the fact that Geometry is not a seperate course in Saxon - it is mixed in with the Algebra Texts. If you stick with Saxon you will be doing Geometry at the same time.

Try to find a mentor or tutor for your child. Sometimes you just need someone to explain things to you in person. I hope this was helpful.

[langfam]

I think we will go back to TT and follow it to the end. I think WE will be most success with this. It is manageable.

 

:thumbup: Glad you've found some peace!

[mama25angels]

:thumbup: Glad you've found some peace!

 

 

me too

[Robin in DFW]

Dd is on lesson 42. I know...she is already 1/3 of the way through the book. It seems so stupid to change back and the more I think it over, the more I am inclined to just stick it out. Plus, I don't have the dough to get yet another program (I had sold our TT Algebra 1 in order to buy the Saxon stuff).

 

I know in my previous reply I said I was going to have her do TT, but guess what??? After much discussion, we have decided to stick it out.

 

I am also not sure about doing a separate Geometry program or not. I have TT Geometry, which dh wants her to use, but if Saxon TRULY does cover the appropriate amount of Geometry, then I don't see the point.

 

I just want to make sure she has enough Geometry to do the PSAT and then SAT with success.

 

Thanks for your help,

Robin

[newbie]

I have posted quite a few times before about our high school math troubles.

 

My dd15 is currently working through Saxon Algebra 1 after starting and dropping several other programs. I am NOT mathmatically inclined and really can't offer her much help.

 

We have tried Lial's Intro Alg (she couldn't get through the long lessons and really struggled). We have used Teaching Textbooks (she thought this was completely opposite Lial's and was too easy). So after all these wasted efforts, we finally got a Saxon Algebra 1 set with the new teaching cd-rom. She is doing "okay". Not great, but decent. But...it's been a struggle to really get the new material down because of the incremental method. I think this method makes a subject harder for some kids. I'm wondering if she needs to do something that focuses on one topic at a time, aiming for mastery.

 

I do have another college algebra book my oldest dd had to use. It is called Beginning Algebra by John Tobey and Jeffrey Slater. It is a regular approach to Algebra with normal chapters. The lessons are shorter than the Lial's book she tried.

 

I am in desperate need of advice. Dd REALLY needs to finish Algebra 1 and move on to Geometry. If necessary, she can do Algebra 1 and Geometry concurrently. I have TT Geometry, which I've heard is better than their Algebra books.

 

I think I am having a nervous breakdown over this. All other subjects seem to be fine and we don't have this trouble. But math...OY!

 

Thanks for your help,

Robin

 

I feel for you. Our biggest fights are over math. Like you I have one more sem. of Alg and a Geometry, hope thats easier.

 

Good luck,

Jet

[sabrina]

Dd is on lesson 42. I know...she is already 1/3 of the way through the book. It seems so stupid to change back and the more I think it over, the more I am inclined to just stick it out. Plus, I don't have the dough to get yet another program (I had sold our TT Algebra 1 in order to buy the Saxon stuff).

 

I know in my previous reply I said I was going to have her do TT, but guess what??? After much discussion, we have decided to stick it out.

 

I am also not sure about doing a separate Geometry program or not. I have TT Geometry, which dh wants her to use, but if Saxon TRULY does cover the appropriate amount of Geometry, then I don't see the point.

 

I just want to make sure she has enough Geometry to do the PSAT and then SAT with success.

 

Thanks for your help,

Robin

 

From my understanding - because Saxon puts geometry throughout their texts - you actually get a lot of it earlier than if you do it as a stand alone subject in another curriculum. Take a look at your table of contents and see where it comes up. Compare that to your TT Geometry table of contents to see how far into geometry you are getting with each Saxon algebra text.

[sabrina]

I feel for you. Our biggest fights are over math. Like you I have one more sem. of Alg and a Geometry, hope thats easier.

 

Good luck,

Jet

 

Jet,

The good news is that if a child loves algebra they usually hate geometry and vice versa. If algebra is a struggle then geometry should be much easier.

[newbie]

Woo hoo!!!

 

Jet

[langfam]

I am also not sure about doing a separate Geometry program or not. I have TT Geometry, which dh wants her to use, but if Saxon TRULY does cover the appropriate amount of Geometry, then I don't see the point.

 

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, just want you to be aware that to get all the geometry your dc needs she'll have to finish Advanced Math.

This quote is from the Saxon website:

 

 

The treatment of geometry is integrated throughout the entire series and is most heavily concentrated in Algebra 2 and Advanced Mathematics. Students who complete both Algebra 2 and Advanced Mathematics will have completed one full year of Euclidean geometry.

 

Hope I'm not making things more confusing for you.

[BeckyFL]

A tutor can make a big difference. I've seen high school students who are struggling get a tutor and end up reporting that math is their favorite subject. You might look for a college student to come in once a week and go over any problem areas. Just an idea. I tutored a girl from a private school this past year and she want from D's to an A with just one hour per week.

[Missouri Mama]

I've used a variety of Alg curriculum because I too had a dd that had difficulty grasping the concepts, particularly with Saxon. Here's my humble opinion. I don't think the opinions of others should rule our thinking, but rather, they should serve as tools to help us make wise decisions. If the objective is that your dd grasp the concepts, then I say you should go with whatever assists her in doing so. You may need to forsake a prescribed time table as some children may need more time or a less rigorous program to accomplish that goal. If TT appears too easy, why not allow her to take the chpt tests & move quickly through the familiar material? That's what I did with my ds. As for careless errors, I've found that my kids respond well to a reward system of sorts with programs like Saxon. I would have them do the even or odd numbered problems. They had to do 2 additional problems for any problem done incorrectly. That generally motivated them to be more precise. They tended to work more carefully through less problems.

[tibbyl]

We are Video Text (VT) algebra loyalists.

 

It follows the mastery method so algebra 1 & 2 are "combined." Thus, you cannot arbitrarily separate neatly into segments 1 & 2, but you certainly can take 2 years to go through it. Student watches a short video, then rereads explanation in worktext, works through some sample problems, and then does either even or odd numbered homework problems. VT advises checking each answer in solution manual as soon as problem is worked.

 

However, I do work through the algebra with the students since I consider it a more critical subject than say... geography. I just feel the need to make sure the student stays on top of it.

 

They have telephone support for the original purchaser, but we've used it only once.

 

It is pricy but commands a good resale value. Plus there are absolutely no prohibitions on reselling.

[sarah in tenn]

I finally put my son in Kumon math after trying several different maths for Algebra. It is tutoring service that is timed with mastery. I had to take myself out of the equation, and it has been the best for both of us.

sarah

[sweetbaby]

We had struggled with Saxon also because of the incremental method. We are using MUS now which is mastery and much better.

[mom2abcd]

I haven't read all the posts, but from the first page, it sounds like you need to hire a private tutor and make her stick with whatever program the tutor chooses. OR... go back to TT and tell her to be glad it's easy and require her to stick with it.

 

Sometimes a kid needs success with "easy" in order to gain the confidence and joy in the subject needed to continue. And sometimes they need us to stick to our guns. Like I said, I don't know the whole story and I didn't read everything. HTH.