No amount of spelling teaching

[DawnM]

will help my poor speller.

 

I am just at the end. We have done AAS and now A&Ps. He still spells the same as when we started both.

 

He will spell the same word 3 different ways on an essay. He will spell the same word differently if asked to spell it 10 minutes later.

 

Sigh. And thank God for spell check because this kid will NEED it.

 

Dawn

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Crimson Wife]

One of my brothers is like that. He has a horrible visual memory for how words are spelled. His mistakes always make sense from a phonetic standpoint so a rules-based program like AAS wouldn't have helped. He just cannot for the life of him remember which vowel team to use, which vowels to use in unaccented syllables, which words have silent or doubled letters, and so on. He relies on spell-check and other people to proofread what spell-check misses.

[FairProspects]

Yup. Co-writer, spell check, and proofreaders are essential here. We still keep plugging away at spelling though. :tongue_smilie:

[merry gardens]

yup.

 

 

waste of time all that stupid AAS, tho I do think it helped my scrabble game.

:lol: All those years of Barton has helped my scramble game too.

[fiddle]

We just recently decided to forego Barton because my dyslexic dd could NOT remember the spelling rules and we were just barely into level 4, with many more rules to come. Her reading is way above grade level, though- go figure. Different skills decoding versus encoding. I'm finally researching and learning a lot about this- and the whole visual part of it (which we are going to have her tested for this summer).

 

We're trying Sequential Spelling this year and we'll keep trying different things. But I think my husband and I understand that our dd just may always be a horrible speller. Much like the stinking math facts, we have already decided not to hold her back conceptually (i.e. her writing process) due to poor spelling or grammar. These things can be edited and fixed either by software or an editor;)

 

Hang in there. The great thing for our kids is that there IS a spell checker. Greatest thing ever for dyslexics or others with LDs affecting this area.

 

Paula

[sweetpea3829]

DH is a horrible speller...unfortunately for him, spell check would be of no use, given that he doesn't spell phonetically. You've got to be somewhat in the neighborhood of correct spelling for spell check to know what word you're using. *sigh*

 

I've heard good things about Barton. Haven't tried it here, but I know many HSers that have had good results with it. Then again, it won't work for everbody.

 

What about LiPs?

[Shay]

Agree with everything said. I teach middle school (ps) kids and although many (most?) have never had an intense program like Barton or AAS, I saw with the few I actually did Barton with for a year , they STILL are lousy spellers. The good thing about those few is that they read better now...as if a barrier was removed. Spell check (Ginger) is our friend. I even did a research project with my students and their writing/spelling in compositions (for a graduate course in research and stats) and Ginger performed significantly better for some students, but there were a few who had the same performance with regular spell check. Most kids preferred the ginger format.

[Lecka]

My son did not do formal Lips but he did that general type of speech therapy and it was amazing for him.

 

I think if kids spell poorly b/c they are unable to segment words and put their sounds down as they segment, that would really help.

 

But then if kids are doing that, but not putting down the correct spelling pattern for the sound, I don't see Lips helping that.

 

My son is slow, slow, slow to learn his spelling patterns for reading, but I see that he is able to retain spelling words he has worked on, that could be spelled in more than one way. So, he has spelling problems, but I think they can be helped by instruction, and he does actually remember some words from seeing them often.

 

So my perspective at this point is -- if kids are like my son was before he had that speech therapy and phonemic awareness, and they are like he was, without any place to begin for spelling or reading, then I think Lips would help.

 

But if they have been through Barton and don't remember what spelling to use, despite spelling a word correctly phonetically, I don't think Lips would help.

 

I still have hope for my son doing AAS and benefitting from it in the future, but I also think he might remain a not-great speller. He is still putting just the wrong consonant down sometimes -- like that is the sound he heard when he segmented. He can do that and then get correct the "ow" or the "a_e," when they might have been spelled "ou" or "ai." It doesn't happen a lot but it happens.

 

At this point I think my son's issues are almost all auditory.

 

But anyway -- we are still early, he is 7 now.

 

edit: I am saying this b/c, on one hand, I believe there are kids who truly just don't remember things like that, and I don't want to say "just try one more thing." But also, if there are kids who have some things in common and are not helped by AAS, I like to try to figure out what those things are. If someone reads and says "AAS is bad" then that might make them not try AAS, when AAS might be worthwhile for them. But if everyone just says "no, AAS is good" then that doesn't help people who need another option. Not that that is what people are saying, but I used to condense things that way before I realized that different curriculums worked for different issues.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Lecka

[Heathermomster]

I've never seen these programs, so I'm asking here. Are the kids instructed to close their eyes and table write or write in the air or close eyes and write on a chalk board during spelling practice? Do you incorporate clapping or singing when spelling? Do these programs add a kinesthetic element?

[Lecka]

I have looked at samples of A and P on their website.

 

I have used AAS. The kinesthetic things I have seen are: sliding letter tiles, and scribbling out a misspelling or circling a part of a word that is hard to remember. Or, I think erase and re-write only the mistake part of a misspelling. Also, to finger write on a variety of surfaces (I think -- it is something we did while we were using AAS anyway).

 

I don't think it incorporates the other things.

 

Where I am right now -- the different colors for vowel teams or whatever could have multiple spellings helps a lot. He is likely to remember the letters that were written in a different color, that he picked out (with my guidance) as something that he needs to remember. He does fairly well with that.

 

To add to your list -- I have read about having kids imagine a picture in their mind of a spelling word, and then spelling it backward. It has not helped here, but I have read of it helping kids. I have also done some with having him march around and say his words, or bounce, and have seen playing catch and saying a letter with each throw and catch. Those are fun practice but I don't think they are a way to start for my son. Like flashcards for him -- if he already knows it it is good review, but he does not learn from flashcards that I can see.

 

B/c my son has trouble with his handwriting I don't think motor memory is going to help him at this point. But he is able to segment pretty reliably now and visually the different colors help him.

 

He is still young...... I am hoping he can improve with age, and not fall apart as the words get more and more complicated.

 

Also, we used Abecedarian level B, which I liked, and I understood it to say that the act of writing a word as it was sounded out was considered kinesthetic. I can see that on one hand, but on the other hand I think that is very weak. But right now I don't think the kinesthetic is so important to my son, b/c he did do good with Abecedarian.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Lecka

[rafiki]

.

[LaughingCat]

I think A&P is very visually and repetition based - the only kinesthetic element would be actually writing the words (and of course most generic spelling methods include having the child write the words anyway :lol:).

 

I haven't tried AAS (so can't speak to any kinesthetics) but my reason for not trying is the memorization of the rules. This is SUCH a weakness here that I can't see using any program where that is the "base" system.

 

For DD9, clapping/ball throwing/singing etc would not help her learn how to spell the word but would be a good way to see how automatic the word is -- as Lecka said (paraphrased) "not a good way to start but good for review".

 

As an aside, sometimes the ways I see listed as kinesthetic seem to be just "tacking on" movement while learning (the above clapping/ball throwing for example). I'm sure there are people that just need to move in order to learn (or people that just need a sensory component such as chalk or finger paint) but that definition of kinesthetic seems to leave out people like me - I am definitely a "jump in and do it" learner but I don't learn better by just adding in an unrelated body movement (and I'm certainly not a natural athlete or needs to be moving kind of person) - I just learn best by actually "doing" whatever it is that needs done (and fwiw, if someone asks me to spell a hard word for them, I have to write it down to "know" how to spell it).

 

For a learner like me, I can see air writing or paint writing more - they are exaggerating the actual movement. But then where is the "doing" part for looking at the word and deciding if you spelled it correctly or not? Since seeing someone talk about Sequential Spelling and having the child self correct, I've been thinking about adding something like that to our A&P spelling. Not sure how I will implement it though. I do already (pre-hearing about sequential spelling) go back through the sentences and tell her to read her written sentence as I retell it to her - and see if she can find her mistake.

[hsmomma]

This is such a good thread on spelling. It's amazing the level of expertise we acquire while trying to help our children learn. You all really blow me away.

The only thing I can add is that writing the words on note cards and with picture words for each spelling word has really helpped my Ds. The technique is Dianne Crafts' and you also but the card at arms length in the air for them to take a picture of the word. We have tried tons of programs but this has been the most helpful.

[ElizabethB]

yup.

 

 

waste of time all that stupid AAS, tho I do think it helped my scrabble game.

 

:lol: All those years of Barton has helped my scramble game too.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

My years of tutoring helped my scrabble game so much that I added a page on my website about how to use phonetic spelling rules and patterns to improve your scrabble game:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Spelling/scrabblespelling.html

[DawnM]

We use Apples and Pears.

 

When he writes I have him correct his spelling, but he has NO IDEA how things should be spelled.

 

He has non-specific LD. That is all they could tell me. I don't know how to test for more than what they gave me????

 

She told me that some words he spelled more than one way on the same paper. So, she would tell him to write in sequence, how to brush your teeth.

 

He would spell a word like "mirror" into different spelling: meerer, mearr, and mirer. Usually none would be correct.

 

Dawn

 

Wait, how is his spelling in isolation? Being able to spell while writing or being able to detect spelling mistakes in his writing are separate issues.

 

If he struggles with spelling in isolation, then if you haven't already - rule out vision issues (through a COVD) and auditory issues (he may be spelling words as he hears them in his head - with my son everything sounded like he was underwater, but he didn't know that wasn't normal).

 

If it's "just" mechanical/detail errors - does he struggle with executive functioning or ADHD or Spectrum issues that would involve EF'ing? If that is the case, he needs taught strategies to compensate for that weakness as it will likely, and unfortunately, always be a hurdle for them.

[Walking-Iris]

I love Sequential Spelling. Some don't have much luck with it, but I think it all depends on how effectively you teach it. It has lists of spelling words to learn based on phonetic patterns. I usually start by wring the pattern we'll be working on in a certain color and then when I give the word with definition or in a sentence my ds repeats the word back to me and then attempts to spell it by sound. If he stumbles then I spell the word using different colors for each part of the word and then he spells it and we move on. There's a list of rules in teh back of the TM but really the point is not to memorize the rules but to use phonetic patterns to spell and eventually the rules become second nature. There's also words that deviate from the rules or phonetic spelling somewhat and those are in the spelling lists at appropriate places. The change in sound from mean to meant for instance.

 

I highly recommend SeqSpell. i won't use anything else.

[DawnM]

I tried that too!

 

He would remember the pattern for THAT lesson but if it would be brought up again in a few months, he would long have forgotten it.

 

Dawn

 

I love Sequential Spelling. Some don't have much luck with it, but I think it all depends on how effectively you teach it. It has lists of spelling words to learn based on phonetic patterns. I usually start by wring the pattern we'll be working on in a certain color and then when I give the word with definition or in a sentence my ds repeats the word back to me and then attempts to spell it by sound. If he stumbles then I spell the word using different colors for each part of the word and then he spells it and we move on. There's a list of rules in teh back of the TM but really the point is not to memorize the rules but to use phonetic patterns to spell and eventually the rules become second nature. There's also words that deviate from the rules or phonetic spelling somewhat and those are in the spelling lists at appropriate places. The change in sound from mean to meant for instance.

 

I highly recommend SeqSpell. i won't use anything else.

[Walking-Iris]

I tried that too!

 

He would remember the pattern for THAT lesson but if it would be brought up again in a few months, he would long have forgotten it.

 

Dawn

 

One of the things I do to help with retention is activities with the words. Look up unfamiliar ones in the dictionary, use them in sentences, orally quiz at random times. Also SeqSpell suggests repeating lessons. There have been times I've gone back to a list months after to review. You could also print out the words in large font and cut them apart like a puzzle. Give the child a pattern like ent and have them list as many words with that phonetic sound.

 

One of the ways SeqSpell can fail is if the teacher just gives the words and then moves on without any reinforcement. The tricky thing about it though is it leaves the actual teaching and extra activities completely up to a teacher's creation.

 

If my ds forgets a pattern or how to spell a word when it's reviewed later I just reteach it and move on. But if it's a consistent thing then I would go back and do that lesson again and again.

 

The thing about SeqSpell is it's advanced. So the words aren't exactly grade level. My dh has said that his middle schoolers couldn't spell some of the words in the 1st book. So for users of SeqSpell you have to take that into consideration. It's not grade leveled. I used the 1st book for two years.

 

But for spelling issues I believe that whatever program you use the words need to have a relation to phonics. For me anyway, that is key.

[EKS]

I found that my son's spelling improved significantly when I allowed him to keyboard and use a spell checker for just about all written work, meaning that over a period of a few years, he started spelling most words correctly the *first* time.