Sue G in PA Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 First of all, I'm so entirely sick of the attitudes around here. I ask my dc to take a placement test b/c I need to know where to place them next year and what do I get? C-R-A-P. Major attitudes, "why do we have to do this?, whining, complaining and yes, even tears. Tears! So, after I completely lose it and "explain" why it needs to be done (basically b/c I SAID so!), they settle in to do it. 10 problems. That's IT! So, dd11 complete the Saxon placement test that MFW has on their website b/c I'm just not sure if she's ready for Alg. 1/2 or should be in 8/7. Well, I'm not sure how to even score it b/c her "mistakes" were all careless. She rushed. When questioned, she KNEW the answers and how to do the problem! So HOW do I score THAT? Just mark them wrong? Put her in 8/7 b/c she's obviously not ready to tackle higher level problems if she's making such careless errors? Then, ds10 takes the Singapore placement (2A thinking it'd be easy for him). NOT! We took the last 2 months of the school year to go through MUS Alpha and cement his addition/subt. facts. Well, in that time he has completely forgotten how to add multiple digit numbers w/ regrouping and subtract multiple digit numbers w/ borrowing! Ugh! We've gone backwards! I'm just so frustrated. I told him to just stop taking the stupid test. He's obviously not ready for anything above 2A for Singapore and he's going into 5th GRADE! Can I scream? This child will be the death of me. He is so bright, but just doesn't apply himself in anything academic. Reading, math, anything. He might have vision tracking issues but guess what? My insurance won't pay for a specialist! Hah! So, he might have these issues but we can't afford to get him therapy! So, I guess I deal w/ this junk forever. I'm just at my wits end. I'm ready to just send them to school and let somebody else deal with this misery. If these attitudes don't improve, I AM sending them back to school. And on top of that...baby has been colicky ALL.DAY.LONG. He is STILL screaming as I write this. Okay, vent over. Thank you for allowing me that. If you have any suggestions on what to do math-wise or otherwise...I'd be much appreciative! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonesloonybin Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 :grouphug: Sorry you are having a sucky day. I am not much help because my dd is the same way when it comes to math. She will just FREAK out and give up and then you just can't do anything. I hope someone has some good advice for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Dominion Heather Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 I think it is pretty normal for a kid just going into Singapore to place in 2A. I wouldn't worry too much about that. Likewise with the Saxon thing... I would let her do 87. There is lots of uper level math in there. She'll do better in Algebra 1/2 later next year. About the attitude, I'd start a check list and tell them that if the behavior/attitude doesn't improve, back to school they go. ETA: I'd place ds in 2a and let him move through quickly, luckily the workbooks are inexpensive. Definitely get the Challenging Word Problems books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Oh Sue, sounds like you need a major break! Make some homemade pizza tonight and take it easy. Can somebody else take the baby for a while and give you a break? If you put your dd in 8/7, it will solidify her, make for an easier year for you (which it sounds like you could use), and be a win/win. I'd go with the placement test and do it. I say that because sometimes what we think they know isn't that they know well enough to do in their sleep, kwim? With your ds, are you sure Singapore is a good match for him? It wouldn't have been my first suggestion with a remedial student, especially where you're going to have to place him so far behind his age/grade. I'd get him into something with some serious spiral, something relatively independent (maybe CLE?) and cheap. In fact, I know it's none of my business, but that's what I would do in general, look for the cheaper curriculum options so you can save money for his vision therapy. I know it's expensive and I feel for you. Just seems to me like dealing with that will help everything get better. I really don't think Singapore makes sense for a remedial older student, not with it's lack of spiral, need for explanation (more time from you on top of baby), etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice in NJ Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Sue, Sending warm, warm hugs! Your concerns about your children's education show that you are serious about doing a good job in educating them. But I suspect that today is not the day to make any big decisions. Give yourself a break. Talk to your husband. And wait to make these decisions. I've had plenty of disaster days in hsing. It is those days that I try, try, try to dig in my heels, turn, face the thousands of balrogs, and roar with my boldest Gandalf impersonation, "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!!!!!!!" ...sometimes I do/did that. Sometimes I just went into my room and bawled like a baby. ;) ... or acted less than June-Cleaver-like to my kids. Either way, it was NO day to make any big-n-bold decisions. Sending hugs though - and sincere hope that bright, sunny, good-decision-making days are heading your way. Peace, Janice Enjoy your little people Enjoy your journey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Re. your dd 11; yes, imho it would be wise to keep her in Saxon 8/7 if she is still making careless mistakes. Algebra requires discipline in solving problems, showing all the steps, etc. My oldest never struggled with concepts in algebra, but inevitably would have to rework several problems due to carelessness~~making mistakes that his 9 y.o. sis would have caught! Your dd is young enough that there is just no reason to put yourself or her through that. If you're feeling frustrated now, trust me, you'll be wanting to pull your hair out later. I'm sorry about your baby!! My 2 y.o. was my only colicky baby. Until he was born I had no idea what other moms were talking about when they mentioned colic. Well, I know now!! I wish I had a solution for you, it seemed like time was the only thing that really helped. One day I realized he wasn't screaming endlessly anymore. That was a beautiful day ;-). Hugs, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbie Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Totally know where you are coming from. My dd finished fifth math a couple of months ago. We rcd. Pre Alg yesterday and she does not remember any of her basics. So I thought, okay time for refresher. Lets play games online. And she says , duh. So I guess each pre alg lesson, I have to take one step forward and two steps back. By the time these two are twenty I am going to be a wreck. Jet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudreyTN Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Well, in that time he has completely forgotten how to add multiple digit numbers w/ regrouping and subtract multiple digit numbers w/ borrowing! Ugh! We've gone backwards! I'm just so frustrated. My daughter was having problems with this, and I just purchased Math Mammoth for her. It's only $4 for the eBook. It looks really good, we'll start on Monday. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 I have a question for you.... Were they *expecting* to take a placement test or was it sprung on them? If my kids aren't in school mode or math mode or thinking-with-their-brains mode, they go running for the hills when I spring something like this on them (yes, I've done it a number of times). I FINALLY learned to prepare them ahead of time, even if it's just a quick, "hey guys, listen up. I need to order next year's math, but I don't know what level to put you in. You have to take a placement test. Would you like to take it now or tomorrow? It's only 10 questions." If they say something ridiculous like, "Can it wait until next month?" I let them know that I need to get things settled quickly, so no. Today or tomorrow (or monday or whatever works for YOU). Other than that, I agree with the other advice you received: a day shall come when all math decisions must be made; books must be ordered, children must be placed. But it is not this day! (Janice already did Gandalf; I figured I'd throw in some Aragorn) ;) Hope your day gets better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacy in NJ Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 I have a question for you.... Were they *expecting* to take a placement test or was it sprung on them? If my kids aren't in school mode or math mode or thinking-with-their-brains mode, they go running for the hills when I spring something like this on them (yes, I've done it a number of times). I FINALLY learned to prepare them ahead of time, even if it's just a quick, "hey guys, listen up. I need to order next year's math, but I don't know what level to put you in. You have to take a placement test. Would you like to take it now or tomorrow? It's only 10 questions." If they say something ridiculous like, "Can it wait until next month?" I let them know that I need to get things settled quickly, so no. Today or tomorrow (or monday or whatever works for YOU). Other than that, I agree with the other advice you received: a day shall come when all math decisions must be made; books must be ordered, children must be placed. But it is not this day! (Janice already did Gandalf; I figured I'd throw in some Aragorn) ;) Hope your day gets better! Yep. My two usually cooperative kiddos would freak out if I sprang a math test on them without first preparing them. Honestly, you do sound highly stressed. Although it may feel like your dkiddos are causing your stress; could it be that you are contributing to the negative "vibe" with impatience and poor planning? I don't mean to contribute to your difficult day. Just wanted to throw that out there.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
langfam Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 "Lack of retention is not an unusual condition and it is quite often age related; that is, it goes away remarkably quickly once the child reaches some elusive and unpredictable level of maturity." This a quote from Chalkdust's Dana Mosely that always puts things in perspective for me. I've had three dc go through Alg 1/2 after 7/6. It was a bear to get through each time. Once you hit the lessons in the 50s of Alg 1/2 there's a big hump they have to get over. Also, the computations in Alg 1/2 can get pretty complicated. One ds would get so lost in the computations (no calculator) that he would forget where he was going with the concept. HTHs:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3lilreds in NC Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 (((Sue))), your house sounds like my house! Except for the colicky baby. :) With my oldest, especially, there would be much weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth over such a placement exam. You are not alone. I am looking at putting my two girls, who will be 2nd and 3rd grade next school year "officially," into MUS Alpha. I tried to do Singapore this year, and did not do it consistently or well, and have come to the conclusion that it's just not going to work for us. My friend who does our end of year testing recommended MUS for us last year, and I went with Singapore because that's what MFW recommended, and it was quite awful. So we're switching to MUS and I think we need to start with Alpha. I'm hoping we can really cruise through it and move on to Beta and get that done by the end of our next school year. Just wanted to let you know that you're not alone with math issues. Sorry for babbling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamom Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 At the beginning of every day's math lesson have them do some review problems each day to help in retaining past material. These problems should be something that they can do on their own but maybe they still make mistakes on them irregularly. As soon as you see they have mastered that type of problem -- just add in that type of problem maybe every 2 to 4 weeks to make sure they have still retained the material. So, maybe starting with 5 problems of review (build up to 10 or so) every day. So your dd would have 5 problems of one kind of problem that she has learned before but is struggling with now (maybe multiplying fractions and decimals for example). Then have her do those problems, check them as soon as they are done, have her correct them and then move on to the regularly planned lesson. The next day you would create a new drill sheet using the same types of problems that she missed and maybe one or two on another topic that she knows but struggles with. Keep doing this for about 10-15 minutes per day and your regular lesson and her retention should stay pretty high. For your ds10 you might want to start with just 5-10 problems with simple addition, subtraction, multiplication and division problems. If he gets them right, the next day add in one or two of the next level problem (keep some the same from the day before) and again, slowly increase the difficulty of the problems. A couple of reminders: * drill problems should be something from the past and fairly easy to do by himself * your child should feel successful after completing the drill even if they have to redo one or two problems. * correct immediately after completing drill and have them re-do those problems * you can print off sheets from various places from on the 'net but I just found it easier to write them on a piece of looseleaf paper so I could more easily personalize the problems I was creating for ds now 15. I had similar struggles when I was homeschooling and drills allowed us to move forward and increase retention. You wouldn't believe how many math programs I went through before I realized that part of the problem was the fact that ds hadn't really internalized the math problems to be able to do them all the time -- in fact mastery was missing. If this is helpful and you need more info just let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue G in PA Posted June 28, 2008 Author Share Posted June 28, 2008 I so appreciate all of your thoughts, everyone. I will try to address specifics that I can remember: I didn't just spring the test on them or I would have completely understood their complaining. Ds10's Singapore placement was rather long. I've had him complete one page each day. So, today was just another day, KWIM? He knew he'd have to do it. Dd11 was warned there would be a placement text sometime this week and she kept putting it off. So, today being Friday (last day of the week), she was at the "end of her rope" so to speak. This is also the child who LOVES math, so I don't know what was up with her. As to my being stressed on my own w/out the dc's added stress...that could very well be. My "perfect little angel baby" has all of a sudden turned colicky and cranky all.day.long. :glare: Where I had a least an hour here or an hour there to get stuff done...I now have NO time whatsoever. Poor planning is what I am trying to AVOID by having them take the test NOW as opposed to later. It's also why I'm getting a bit more stressed b/c I want to have it all planned out before we start. Flying by the seat of my pants doesn't work for me. I need this summer to really plan. Not everything. Not perfectly. But, I must have a general idea of what we are doing week to week, KWIM? Okay, my ds10 doesn't do well w/ spiral (like Saxon). He needs mastery before moving on. He's been using MUS w/ "some" success, but now I'm seeing where these past 2 months off from Saxon (spiral) has caused him to forget concepts he once knew really well! :confused: I was switching to Singapore for him (or at least supplementing w/ Sing.) so he could really start understanding math. Maybe it's not such a good idea. Yes, it was based on the MFW recommendation of Singapore Math. Perhaps I'll check into CLE or Math Mammoth for some supplementation instead. I do need to save money but I fear that it won't even come close to being enough for vision therapy. My dd11 will do Saxon 8/7...thanks for that confirmation everyone who responded. She could use an "extra" year of cementing previously learned concepts. I have 2nd edition 8/7 and Alg. 1/2...would I need to use 3rd edition for 8/7 or would 2nd ed. be okay? Okay, this got long. I'm trying, really I am. Thanks again! Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Lynn Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Okay, my ds10 doesn't do well w/ spiral (like Saxon). He needs mastery before moving on. He's been using MUS w/ "some" success, but now I'm seeing where these past 2 months off from Saxon (spiral) has caused him to forget concepts he once knew really well! :confused: I was switching to Singapore for him (or at least supplementing w/ Sing.) so he could really start understanding math. Maybe it's not such a good idea. Yes, it was based on the MFW recommendation of Singapore Math. Perhaps I'll check into CLE or Math Mammoth for some supplementation instead. I do need to save money but I fear that it won't even come close to being enough for vision therapy. Just a thought about your ds. *If* MUS seems to work well for him (and you may not be sure of that yet) then I wouldn't worry about what he's forgotten from Saxon, but rather trust the process of MUS knowing he will have another chance to master double digit with regrouping, etc, etc. I'm not trying to push you to MUS (as you know, I've wavered on this point quite a bit myself!) - just saying this: you went to MUS because he was struggling, so forgetting how to do something that he hasn't practiced in a couple months might not be so bad. If you did decide to stick with MUS he would have a chance to learn it again and master it. (Okay, if you come back and tell me he already had those lessons in MUS, then forget everything I said, LOL. Or maybe he needs more practice problems than MUS gives? - maybe use the online worksheet generator?) Big hugs for you with a crying baby! Maybe it was just something he/you ate and he'll be back to his sweet, cooing, and sleeping self tonight and tomorrow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
langfam Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35109 If you scroll down to Jann's post she has a good explanation of which 8/7 to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mama25angels Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Sue :grouphug: so sorry you had such a bad day. I could have almost written this post word for word. I want to agree with the other ladies and say take the weekend off and come back to it with fresh eyes and renewed energy on Mon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Oh Sue.....you're a good mom. Sounds like you need a break. I couldn't function AT ALL when I had a colicky baby. You're doing a good job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felicia Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Just one more math suggestion.. Have you looked into Developemental Math? I have a friend whose dd hated math. She took her out of saxon and is now using DM. While math still isn't her dd's fav subject, at least now she said she doesn't mind doing it. She kinda likes it..... I thought wow, I'm gonna check into it. It also has.....dare I say it..... (whispered) placement tests.. http://www.mathplace.com/Developmental/Developmental.asp I am fortunate in that my older two love to do school and in general like math. However, they are having some very basic problems and I think we missed something. So we are doing saxon but I will use this as supplements in the areas that they need reinforcement. I won't be using the whole series. The workbooks are fairly inexpensive also. One more you could try is the Key to... books. Rainbow Resource has them. They are just inexpensive workbooks that cover many different topics including geometry and algebra. http://www.rainbowresource.com/search.php?sid=1214667486-1440242 Just a few suggestions... HTH ((((((((((Sue))))))))))) I've never had a colicky baby but my 3 year old is going through a major whining crying phase. Every single day she can go from happy to mad to sad in like 1.2 seconds......agh! So right now the house is kinda turned upside down.. But I know that this WILL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felicia Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 This will pass......... I somehow cut myself off...... Anyhow, I'll say a little pray today for you and your family and I wish you all the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PollyOR Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 I haven't read all of the replies. My dd (12) was making a lot of careless mistakes. I found out that she knew the material and was bored. I DID move her up to Algebra. Now she's challenged again. Side note: There are days when she completely spaces on her school work. I blame it on hormones and let it go. I know her brain will start functioning again in a day or two. :D My 10 year old girl sounds similar to your son. We are currently using Rod & Staff math. She uses the bee & blossom chart (math facts) every day before starting her math lesson. R&S really cements math facts! We recently started Math 4 even though she would technically be a 5th grader in the fall. Here's a hug. :grouphug:Sue:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testimony Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 I understand how the dc can stress our day,week, or even month. I know that this sounds crazy, but I would take a break. I would take a vacation or go on lots of field trips or nature walks. Sometimes stepping away helps the children think better. I could be wrong. A baby with colic can bring stress. The children not cooperating can bring more. I would be freaking out too. I know that when I am stressed out and overwhelmed, it is time to take a break. The above is my opinion and things that I have done that have worked with my children. Blessings to you on your homeschool journey! :grouphug: Sincerely, Karen http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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