LisaKinVA Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Where does this idea come from (philosophically-speaking). In a conversation regarding formal science studies recently, another mom who does not believe in formal science programs before high school suggested that my oldest dd, who is in beginning algebra skip high school science completely and just "get college-level textbooks" and have her "go at it." Do you agree or disagree with this sentiment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I think it's simply that if a child can handle the higher level of depth, often the lower levels don't hold much for them. Elementary science texts are usually either trivially easy or just plain full of trivia. I do think there are some good middle and high school ones, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar7709 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I agree, to an extent. Some kids are going to want the slightly easier information in a high school text. But IMO, because college texts (at the first-year level anyway) also start at the beginning and don't really require previous knowledge of a subject, an interested, bright high schooler could handle an first-year level college textbook just fine. I will say that even within college first year textbooks they are at a range of difficulty. I have four first-year geology textbooks next to me on the shelf. The one used at our local community college is definitely simpler than the one used at the selective four-year university. For a high schooler, I'd probably recommend the one used at the community college. If that high school student eventually takes the same course at a four-year university using the more difficult textbook, they will really be well prepared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 I would agree, that a high schooler will probably be ready for a college level text, but when it's your accelerated 10yo doing Algebra, would you still thrust the college-level science text at them? Her point seemed to be, if they were in Algebra (regardless of their age), they are ready for college-level science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Again, I think it depends on the college text. They're not all created equal. My favorite music appreciation textbook when teaching any student who can handle reading it, is a college text usually used for non-majors because it's better written and more engaging than anything I've seen marketed for high school students. My 7 yr old has read it and enjoys it. Having said that, the one textbook that my Chemistry professor father suggests most for DD7 (and for any child who needs higher level content without necessarily having the math yet) is the ACS Chemistry in the Community high school course. It's not as mathematically intense as most high school chemistry curricula, but goes into more subtopics of chemistry and more just plain useful in everyday life scientific literacy than most. It's very accessible to a student with a strong reading level who hasn't had or is just starting Algebra, while most high school and beginning college chemistry texts assume completion of at least Algebra II. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I think it would depend on the child's interest in science. I might try the college text if the child loved to read lots of science books and desired more information. I wouldn't equate math knowledge with science. I have a kid doing the opposite (harder science than his math level). He is a science nut and has learned a bunch of math through reading science books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar7709 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I would agree, that a high schooler will probably be ready for a college level text, but when it's your accelerated 10yo doing Algebra, would you still thrust the college-level science text at them? Her point seemed to be, if they were in Algebra (regardless of their age), they are ready for college-level science. Oh! I missed that she's 10! Yeah, that might be a little much. I think it's a rare 10 yo indeed, that would be ready for college textbooks. Stranger things have happened, though. At that rate my son is going devouring astronomy material, I can't at this point rule it out for him as a possibility... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 It would depend on the text. My Biology and Chemistry 101 classes in college were WAY easier than my high school classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanM Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Again, I think it depends on the college text. They're not all created equal. :iagree: Personally, I would think that a good high school text, or even a strong middle school text, would probably be more appropriate, unless the student had a strong interest in that particular science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Disagree First, if your daughter is not in high school yet, I would advise you not to use college level texts. They are simply not as engaging as a younger student needs/should have. I do feel that many homeschoolers stress "formal" sciences too much in the early years. I'm much more into exploration and hands-on learning for the elementary years. Around junior high, I would add in more structured learning, but still with a huge amount of exploration and hands-on. There are some excellent programs out there that do a great job in junior high without needlessly boring a student. Junior high should be the time to familiarize your student with the vocabulary of science, the mathematics of science, and the scientific method (esp. a basic lab report). Then in high school the student is ready for a good, solid structured program - even then, though, I would hesitate to recommend college level texts. There are some excellent high school programs available. Save college for college :) (or at least dual enrollment) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Mathematics ability and science reasoning are not the same thing. One of the interesting things on the ACT is the science reasoning section. For most students it is usually the lowest score. Many students score very high on the math section only to be mediocre on the science section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 (edited) The main problem with intro college texts is that they are too long for a 10 year old to get through well if you are doing them in a 9 month period. Plus, of course, only the good text books are actually readable -- you have to choose carefully. My ds(11) is reading the university-level Tarbuck. But this is not the same as doing a university-level science course. We have adapted it by: 1) doing only 2/3rds of the textbook, 2) helping him write up the answers to the review questions, 3) doing only a small portion of the investigation book, 4) not testing him, so there is no stress, just passion for the topic, 5) focusing on an investigation based on his interests. There is a difference between scientific comprehension and scientific reasoning. My ds can easily understand what the text book has to say, but when it comes to his investigation he struggles to interpret difficult data without guidance. Science has 2 clearly different parts, and when a someone is in a hurry to get through the content, scientific thinking gets left behind. It takes time and experience to develop the ability to interpret difficult data, design an appropriate experiment, recognize assumptions etc. You just can't zip through it. So if a student is far advanced in science, I would spend the time on a serious investigation rather than just reading through university text books. The investigation my ds(11) is working through right now is equilvalent in effort and complexity to the one I did as an undergraduate. The main difference being that he is doing it *with* me, not on his own; and that there will be no literature review, statistical analysis, or 20-pg write up. However, the learning, oh, the learning that is happening at our house right now! I have been describing it here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361740 Point being, harder textbooks are not the only way to accelerate science. Ruth in NZ Edited May 11, 2012 by lewelma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 (edited) I agree the college texts tend to be wordier, longer, and go faster, but I'm never in a hurry so I see no problem with taking whatever time is needed. If a kid is 10 and needs 2 years to get through Intro to College Chemistry I'm not seeing the problem. :iagree: However, not everyone gets this. I have discussed with more than one individual on this board that a student does not have to finish a 1-year university textbook in 1 year for it to be counted as a middle school or high school level course. Some people feel that the just HAVE to finish the book in a year for it to "count." If there is limited time, it is really a question of goals: deep or wide. Just something else for the OP to consider. Edited May 11, 2012 by lewelma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillyMama Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I think it would depend on the child's interest in science. I might try the college text if the child loved to read lots of science books and desired more information. I wouldn't equate math knowledge with science. I have a kid doing the opposite (harder science than his math level). He is a science nut and has learned a bunch of math through reading science books. :iagree: I think sometimes people remember, either through their own experiences or that with their kids, that the hardest part of science is the math. So people tend to say, "Hey, if you can do algebra, you'll be fine in Chemistry." I can remember trying to take an engineering level Chemistry class before I'd taken advanced calculus or physics, and that was challenging for the first few weeks. So I can kind of see where they are coming from. My problem with this are the things that aren't math-heavy. I was always a whiz at math, Chemistry and Physics, but the worst grade I ever got in my life was in Zoology my freshman year of college. There's no math in that, just lots and lots of data. I hate memorizing and I STRUGGLED. Because of that, I like doing elementary animal studies with my kids, as I feel like I can teach them some basics that I had wished I'd heard before. I think it just depends on your child's strengths and weaknesses, and what people mean by "science." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I agree the college texts tend to be wordier, longer, and go faster, but I'm never in a hurry so I see no problem with taking whatever time is needed. If a kid is 10 and needs 2 years to get through Intro to College Chemistry I'm not seeing the problem. :iagree: To me it also saves money. If I purchase an older edition college text and use it for several years it adds up to big savings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 (edited) Where does this idea come from (philosophically-speaking). In a conversation regarding formal science studies recently, another mom who does not believe in formal science programs before high school suggested that my oldest dd, who is in beginning algebra skip high school science completely and just "get college-level textbooks" and have her "go at it." Do you agree or disagree with this sentiment? I disagree. What a strange suggestion from the other mom. I think the prudent question is, "What are my science goals and expectations for my students?" Dd9 is doing extremely well in alg currently and is appropriately stimulated with middle school/high school science content. She takes an inquiry-based chem class this month with a tutor who is tailoring the program for her and one other student. She is solid on scientific notation which came up a few times in class today. By week 4 they will be doing high school chem. Only 2 advanced students registered this session so they will move at double speed through material. Here is the 4-session class summary. I would not want a college text for her despite the fact that she knows alg. I want a heavy inquiry-based hands on approach (in conjunction with other resources at our disposal). The point is....Each student is different. For some a college text may be ideal. Is it for your dc? Edited May 12, 2012 by Beth in SW WA typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Again, I think it depends on the college text. They're not all created equal. My favorite music appreciation textbook when teaching any student who can handle reading it, is a college text usually used for non-majors because it's better written and more engaging than anything I've seen marketed for high school students. My 7 yr old has read it and enjoys it. oooo - care to share? I just need to buy another book :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Completely disagree, because the college text will assume the student has completed a college prep high school course. I used to work as a departmental tutor for the human biology core sequence at my college. One of the girls I tutored was an Inuit who had grown up in some very poor Alaskan village. She was extremely bright but her lousy high school had left her completely unprepared for college level science coursework. She was failing the class and it threatened to derail her dream of becoming a pediatrician with the Indian Health Service. With a lot of hard work and intensive tutoring, she did manage to pass it with a C, but I really think had she attended a high school like the one I did with a strong honors sequence including AP Bio, she could've gotten a significantly higher grade (possibly even an A). I don't know whether she ever became a doctor (I tried looking her up in the alumni directory once but there were several women with the same first name and a plausible graduation year & I couldn't remember her last name), but it angers me that someone with so much potential had such an uphill climb due to her poor K-12 education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TippyCanoe Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 oooo - care to share? I just need to buy another book :tongue_smilie: Listen by Joseph Kerman. It's in the 7 th edition now, but the older ones would work as well. (I've used it since the 2nd). It's a fairly expensive book, especially with the CD's, although there is an streaming audio option for the newest edition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 thanks dmmetler! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RanchGirl Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I am struggling with this too. My eldest (now 12) did algebra at ten. He loves math but doesn't care for science, other than computer science. He will be continue with his advanced math, he just started programming which he loves. But he really only puts up with his science classes because he has to. He can take a typical honors/AP science track and do well, but I am not sure how much to make him focus on that when it's just not his passion. His goals are math/programming type things. I think he might really going to enjoy physics and I am considering have him start that next fall instead of biology. Since the second one just *has* to be different, he is also advanced in math, doing algebra at ten, but loves loves loves science. Wants to do something "science-y in the ocean" as a career. Scores off the charts in science reasoning on Explore. Happy to do science all day long, though he also has a love for math and geography. What do I do with him?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted May 13, 2012 Author Share Posted May 13, 2012 (edited) I am struggling with this too.... Since the second one just *has* to be different...loves loves loves science. Wants to do something "science-y in the ocean" as a career. Scores off the charts in science reasoning on Explore. Happy to do science all day long, though he also has a love for math and geography. What do I do with him?? Both of my older two children love science, just different sciences. Oldest loves Physics/Chem, younger dd loves Life Science. Our plan for the oldest is to take Biology next year (using a less intense high school text, with videos & internet links). I haven't yet decided if we're going to count this as his high school Biology class, or if he'll take a college-level Biology class, too. He's just not into it -- but he could take Physics, Chemistry, Engineering and technology classes all day long. I know putting him into a college level class or text *right now* especially in a course he has no interest to be in, is the absolute wrong call. His personality is also such, that he has to warm up to things. We have college-level Chemistry & Physics here, but the level of math required is off-putting to him. He needs to be stretched...gradually. Throw this kid into the deep end and he'd drown - not because he can't swim, but because he doesn't think he can swim and is overwhelmed by the thought. My younger daughter has no fear of "the deep end," and has her sights set on a Marine Biology major. Every text I have looked at requires a good foundation in Biology, and college seems to require some Chemistry. She has already devoured elementary texts (and a lot on the internet) for this subject, and wants to get a more systematic study going. HOWEVER, we still have to cover the pre-recs. For her, that means Earth/Space and Biology before attempting Apologia's Marine Biology course, then Chemistry and Physics, and Advanced Biology, Chemistry and Marine Biology/Environmental Science. She requested more difficult courses than what her brother is currently using -- and she's up for that. And, then there is me. I need a systematic-planned course to feel comfortable. They can add all they want, but I need a solid framework. In early elementary, I'm fine with books and investigations, but when they reach upper elementary (or show greater interest), doing more (I feel), is beneficial. So essentially, we've done it this way -- lots of "living books" and investigations in K-4, with Apologia added in grades 2-4 -- and then they will "track" based upon their interests. My son did Earth/Space in 4th, Life Science in 5th, Physical Science in 6th, then Biology, Chemistry and Physics (that's all the firm planning we've done) My 10yo dd will do Earth/Space in 5th, Biology in 6th, Marine Biology in 7th, Chemistry in 8th and Physics in 9th. My younger son -- I have no idea yet. He's doing Apologia happily right now. He loves all things science (Human Anatomy, being his favorite overall), and will probably get to do Hakim's Story of Science in addition to other things (My older son and dd will probably do Story of Science, too, just more on the side). The other mom's suggestion of skipping high school science simply threw me. It wasn't so much about content depth (or speed through a program, even), it was more that the content usually assumed previous experience with a subject. I understand that there are differences between texts (as I've learned here), but for our goals, right now, I'm pretty comfortable with the plans we have through 9th grade. I feel like it is easier for me to "add more" to those subjects (with projects, experiments, videos, etc.), than to water down a college text -- especially when the questions may require a depth of thought for which one or more of my children aren't quite ready for. Maybe I'm a science wuss, just copping out because I don't want to have to tackle wading through the college texts with my kids in elementary/middle school...but I'm okay with that. I have 5 kids who need me, and a full time job -- I can't do everything. Sometimes, good enough is what is best. Edited May 13, 2012 by LisaK in VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillyMama Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Since the second one just *has* to be different :lol: This just made me laugh! I am a second child myself and now my second, my daughter, is just like me. We second children just don't really like or need to follow the rules of expectations. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RanchGirl Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Both of my older two children love science, just different sciences. Oldest loves Physics/Chem, younger dd loves Life Science. I wonder if my older would enjoy chemistry. I think I will give it a try with him this summer and see if anything sparks. Younger asked to do earth science in addition to life science so we'll see how much science he can pack into a day! oh did I mention I don't care for science at all lol??? I will have to get on board with this like I did math. I firmly believe God gives you the kids that will stretch you where you need to grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RanchGirl Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 :lol: This just made me laugh! I am a second child myself and now my second, my daughter, is just like me. We second children just don't really like or need to follow the rules of expectations. :D :D Unfortunately some of us parents are barely figuring things out with the first, second has to come along and blow me out of the water... could you second children not have a little sympathy for your poor mothers?? ;) My second is like you describe, a free spirit, blazing his own trail. His dad and I are both first children. We are completely in over our heads here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I wonder if my older would enjoy chemistry. I think I will give it a try with him this summer and see if anything sparks. Younger asked to do earth science in addition to life science so we'll see how much science he can pack into a day! oh did I mention I don't care for science at all lol??? I will have to get on board with this like I did math. I firmly believe God gives you the kids that will stretch you where you need to grow. Look into Ellen McHenry's chem programs and also the new Mr. Q Advanced Chemistry. Much more engaging than the typical science textbooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumto2 Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Ellen McHenry made even me like chemistry!!!. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Ellen McHenry made even me like chemistry!!!. :iagree: I definitely plan to use her chemistry program. We are using her English one this year and it has been a big hit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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