HFClassicalAcademy Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I'm trying to get others perspective on this. How do you define a rigorous/strict/tough curriculum? And if you have one, is this a bad thing for dc? I have been going over this in head too many times. How do you know when you are being rigorous enough to produce positive results, but not too rigorous that you will eventually burnout your kids? What does burnout look like? Can a tough curriculum be fun? :confused: Sorry if this question is a little "out there" for some. I just can't come to peace with it and really would like to know what others think. BTW, I want to be rigorous with our homeschooling...but I also want to be fun! Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tristangrace Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Excellent question . . . really hard to answer! My goal is to lean more toward "thorough, but gentle and fun" through fourth grade, and then to lean more toward "rigorous and challenging." If it seems like my kid is applying herself but still not mastering her lessons over a reasonable period of time, then my assumption is that the material is inappropriately difficult or the presentation is faulty. The tricky thing is that there are so many components that go into this sort of evaluation! How do I know if my child is applying herself to the fullest? How does one define "mastery"? What is a "reasonable" period of time? I don't think any of those factors can be expressed in hard-and-fast rules--it's MUCH more of an art than a science, as far as I can tell. But again, my goals for the early years are different than for fifth grade and on. I do want my kids to thoroughly master the basics of reading, writing, and math in the early years, and I want them to be engaged and enchanted by learning. I expect to have to "push" my younger kids in order to help them good habits, but I don't intend to "push" them with anything related to curricula--they can set their own pace in the early years. Then, once they have a firm, comfortable grasp on the basic tools, AND have had a reasonably enjoyable school experience up to that point, ramping up the challenge level will HOPEFULLY result in more excitement than frustration (for all of us). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhondabee Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I'm not sure how to define rigorous. I think it is mastery, rather than exposure. If a curriculum or method is rigorous, then (in my mind) my dc will leave my house well-read, able to comprehend others, and able to reason logically for themselves. It is almost learning for the joy of learning - not because it will get me a job, but just because it's so *cool* to no longer be as ignorant as I once was. I think rigorous can mean different things to different people, and certainly every dc should walk his own path. But, ideally rigorous is the creme de la creme, and will not always be attainable (either by me or my kids). But, we can always choose to challenge ourselves - which is where toughness comes in. Tough is me having to be a teacher rather than a facilitator of a schedule. (And, I agree with Ria when she says, "Students need teachers.") It means my dc will not comprehend the material adequately on his own, nor will he be able to fake his way through it. It will meet him where he is, but it will push him way beyond that point as well, and I must help him. Tough is tough on me, but shouldn't push my dc to tears. Strict, on the other hand, is up to me, not the curriculum. I try not to be strict. Strict leaves no room for errors and re-dos. Strict is no flexibility, no wiggling, no talking, and as Brian Regan says, "NO MORE HAPPINESS!" A curriculum can be tough, but if I am there helping and coaching and looking for progress rather than perfection, then it's not really so bad. Fun isn't really tied to curriculum around here - some of that is me being an un-crafty person who hates to clean up messes, and some is out of deference to my very pragmatic boys (that may change when dd is on the scene). But, for now, school is school - we do it. But, we are still "we". We have inside jokes (see Brian Regan above), we laugh, we talk, we discuss, we read, sometimes we cry, we pray, we read R&S Exercises in our hill-billy voices, we make up songs and rhymes for our memory work, we rap and dance to our Latin chants, we read some more, we cook, we watch my dd dance to classical music during lunch, we eat popcorn alot - and sometimes we watch a movie, we look at art (we look at art! I never looked at art when I was growing up! - how cool is that?), we share science experiments and glimpses of wildlife in the backyard, we write and read it out loud to each other, and call Dad and share it over the phone - in short, we live! And, that is fun. :001_smile: Rhonda ps - If you've never heard SWB speak, I highly recommend her CD's. Her personality simply sparkles in a way that WTM just never captures, and you just know from listening to her that the journey will be fun as well as rigorous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I think this can have so many answers, but for me it comes down to my individual inclinations which are a result of my own education, my genes, my past and present environment.....and I am the filter of all that to provide an education for my kids. Its so subjective. While i am sure there are classical purists who will argue for some sort of objective rigorous education for most able children, I am not of that camp, really, although I like to learn from them. What is a rigorous education for my son is different from for my daughter. What stretches my son to his limits is very different for what stretches my daughter to hers. If she can handle a rigorous education (someone else's standard) fairly easily, then it's not rigorous for her, and ditto for ds if he cant handle the same material at the same age- less is rigorous for him. And they vary subject to subject. A rigorous education for 4 hours a day that really, really pushes a child is different from one they are doing 8-10 hours a day by highschool. I think its about personalizing the education for each child, to some extent, and treating the child as a whole person rather than just a mind to be filled., a being to be educated well from an academic perspective. And a whole person needs balance in their life- they need respect and consideration for their unique personality, they need time for other things than academia, they need space to grow individually. I have been searching for this balance every since I started homeschooling...how to maintain a high academic standard without burning us out, without destroying their love of learning, without taking over their lives with my ambitions for them to really excel. I am sure the tweaking will continue, but I ended up coming back to a Charlotte Mason approach, because it is a very high standard that is very respectful and wholistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targhee Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I'm not sure how to define rigorous. I would not use rigorous, strict, and tough as synonyms either. To me rigorous is like a great work-out - cross-training that gets your heart rate up and produces results. Tough is something that is suited to a higher level, but expected of someone not at that level yet (going with my workout metaphor, this would like weight lifting, only trying to do repetitions at your max-out weight). And strict just means inflexible and unwilling to adapt to a situation. I believe schooling should be rigorous, but not tough (this is the point you are demanding/expecting/pushing too much) nor strict. Strict is like what public school is - generally there is one way to do things and if you don't do it that way you won't succeed. Back to the original question. I think it is difficult to know. The obvious thing to say would be something like "I know it is too tough when my student is very frustrated and unable to do the task" but that could also be because of the teaching method, the teacher-student relationship, and a number of other things. I do think a rigorous curriculum can be fun, and hopefully is. I think only you as the parent/teacher can tell when it is "rigorous enough to produce positive results." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I think it is all in your family dynamic. We instill a thirst for learning from a young age and model it, which makes "burnout" much less likely. We can then challenge dc with a rigorous curriculum and schedule, and they thrive. We are one of those geek families in which rigorous IS fun. We vacation at historical spots, we have "in jokes" about science, we discuss grammar over dinner... I agree with Rhondabee, too, that a challenging curriculum means that it takes a lot from ME. I teach my dc, and I believe that enables them to attain a lot more. It also changes the dynamic from me piling work on them, to us learning and figuring things out together. Much nicer! I used to define rigorous as just more difficult than the norm, just going down the same path but at a faster pace, but I heard a great talk about rethinking your educational goals, and we have since "left the path" and set our own goals to reach. Now rigorous here is about always having something new to think on, about working really hard toward goals that are just this side of not possible... It goes along with our family philosophy - if you're here, why not give it your all. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HFClassicalAcademy Posted June 21, 2008 Author Share Posted June 21, 2008 I am so glad I asked this question! You have given me new perspectives on things and this is something that I'll definitely be thinking more about!!! Thanks for the insights, Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathie in VA Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 ... How do you define a rigorous/strict/tough curriculum? And if you have one, is this a bad thing for dc? ...How do you know when you are being rigorous enough to produce positive results, but not too rigorous that you will eventually burnout your kids? What does burnout look like? Can a tough curriculum be fun? :confused: ...Liz Interesting question! I think I'd say a rigorous curriculum is one that will really work the user to achieve it's educational goals. I agree with the person who referred to a mastery of the material by the end of the curriculum. This can be boring or fun, that would depend on how well the curriculum, student, and teacher all view the methods, assignments and assessments included inthe curriculum. A strict curriculum? hmm. I guess that would be one that stays close to a set of goals. Thus all of the assignments can be linked back to an intended goal. I think sometimes curriculums want to be seen as fun so they include assignments just for 'fun'. I don't agree with this. We can make most things fun; but we prefer not to feel like we are waisting our time on an assignment just for fun! There are other things we can do just for fun! However strict education, class, or school makes me think more of the teacher than the curriculum. This is where I need to decide if the current assignment should be done, if it should be accepted late, if my kids should stop school before getting their work done because their friends are available for play. I'm strict when I stick to the rules and flexible otherwise. A tough curriculum? This would be one that is actually hard for the student to work through, not impossible but one that will take time, energy and thought. This curriculum will require the student to work at their ability and a bit beyond what they are used to doing. Now this can be fun. That would depend on the student's learning styles, the teacher's teaching style, whether or not prep work for the lesson was done, and of course how these styles line up with the assignments. I don't think a rigorous, strict, tough curriculum is bad for anyone. I think that it is just very hard to find one that lines up well with the teacher's teaching preferences/style, the student's learning style, and can be balanced with the other requirements like cost, teacher prep time, teaching time, student time, plus balancing other kids into the curriculum or leaving time for their curriculum to also get done. Then there is also the scheduling of this one curriculum with the rest of the curriculum you might want your dc to do (unless the first one includes all the subjects). However when you do find some that fit well within your family at this point in time, it can be very fun... at least that's my hope. I think burnout is when you really just don't want to get started and you just can't get past that attitude. I guess this is beyond just needing a short break, a drink or some exercise. I'm looking forward to reading other's responses on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M&M Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I'm trying to get others perspective on this. How do you define a rigorous/strict/tough curriculum? And if you have one, is this a bad thing for dc? I have been going over this in head too many times. How do you know when you are being rigorous enough to produce positive results, but not too rigorous that you will eventually burnout your kids? What does burnout look like? Can a tough curriculum be fun? :confused: Sorry if this question is a little "out there" for some. I just can't come to peace with it and really would like to know what others think. BTW, I want to be rigorous with our homeschooling...but I also want to be fun! Liz Why do you ask? What I mean is what are your goals for hsing? My goal is to raise our children in our faith and to help guide them in what God has called them to be. In that there will be discipline, rigor, fun etc. I looked over your blog and I think that what you are doing is amazing!! Your children are beautiful and they look very happy. Have you read Real Learning by Elizabeth Foss? http://www.amazon.com/Real-Learning-Education-Heart-Home/dp/0971889511 She is a Catholic Charlotte Mason hser. Here is her blog http://ebeth.typepad.com/ I am not Catholic and I tend to lean more classical than CM, but I have learned a lot from her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I'm trying to get others perspective on this. How do you define a rigorous/strict/tough curriculum? And if you have one, is this a bad thing for dc? I have been going over this in head too many times. How do you know when you are being rigorous enough to produce positive results, but not too rigorous that you will eventually burnout your kids? What does burnout look like? Can a tough curriculum be fun? :confused: Sorry if this question is a little "out there" for some. I just can't come to peace with it and really would like to know what others think. BTW, I want to be rigorous with our homeschooling...but I also want to be fun! Liz :lurk5: I look forward to hearing these responses. I go through the same thing in my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M&M Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Post deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I hope you don't mind, but I went to your blog to "get to know you" a little bit before answering this question. I think that so much depends on who you are as a mother/teacher, what your own interests and limits are, who your children are, and where your children are developmentally. From your blog I see that you have a Lapfull of Littles. Your children seem happy, healthy, and are ABSOLUTELY ADORABLE! They are gifts from God. It also seems that you are a thoughtful, prayerful, loving mother, one who truly wants to provide the best for your children, to satisfy their souls and minds with all good things. Other posters have discussed what is rigorous, what is tough, and what is strict, so I will not reiterate all that. Instead, I just want to remind you that you have the Holy Spirit to guide you, to shape your mother's heart, and to give you wisdom in all things. Your love for your children shines through in the smiles on their faces and the sparkle in their eyes. They are well-loved children! You as the mother/teacher will walk a fine line at times, between setting up a healthy structure for your children and perhaps pushing a bit too much. For example, I read your blog article about choosing a curriculum for a three year old. I completely agree with you that some young children just do better with some planned "work." My 3.5 year old daughter is definitely one of them! If all she did was "free play," she would not be satisfied/fed with this. If it's not about "the curriculum," but more about feeding and nourishing this particular child, then there is nothing to apologize for! You don't feel bad about feeding your children nutritious food, or even making them eat some of it, so don't worry too much about putting good "mind food" and good "soul food" on the menu. :001_smile: (BFIAR is wonderful!) You have to trust your own mother's heart for them, that as you ask God for wisdom, He will give it to you, and you will know what is best. You will know what is "too much" or "not enough" for each of your children. You will find the path each morning, because God has promised that you will! The Bible says in James 1:5, "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." And in James 1:17 we read, "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights." Proverbs 9:10 states, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." May you be encouraged and strengthened in your mothering today, and may you be richly rewarded with children who arise and called you blessed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M&M Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I'm wondering if I've somehow offended you by my "lurking" post, since you put my reply in quotes and because of your above quoted reply, but I'm not sure...I put that popcorn "lurking" icon in there, as a reply to the OP, just as a sign that I am "lurking" to read the great answers everyone is giving. I thought it was an interesting thread, and I look forward to the answers. So I'm :lurk5: for all of them. :) Your post is under my post so it looked to me like you were answering my question. I will delete. I shouldn't have posted, I am not having the best day (stressed out mommy) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Atl Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I think challenging can be fun. Bored kids don't learn! Many equate rigor with sitting in a desk reciting times tables till ones eyes pop out; that to me is not rigor. Rigor is giving kids challenging word problems in which they must use all their skills to solve. Sometimes it's out of a bk, other times it's at Home Depot! Many underestimate what kids can do, both in learning "life skills" as well as academic skills. I know what I am doing is working, because each time my kids take an outside class (like art camp), the teacher will comment that my kids ask questions, they are curious and want to learn. Others in the class often tend goof off and see the class as time to hang friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Your post is under my post so it looked to me like you were answering my question. I will delete. I shouldn't have posted, I am not having the best day (stressed out mommy) Just discovered this post after PMing you...I hope you have a better afternoon! :) I also went back and clarified my lurking popcorn post, just so it's clear for general readers. :) Now back to the interesting discussion at hand.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I think challenging can be fun. Bored kids don't learn! Many equate rigor with sitting in a desk reciting times tables till ones eyes pop out; that to me is not rigor. Rigor is giving kids challenging word problems in which they must use all their skills to solve. Sometimes it's out of a bk, other times it's at Home Depot!:iagree:My rule of thumb for math is that if child isn't making occasional mistakes (real mistakes, not computational ones) or having to occasionally stop and THINK, the material is too easy. We need to stretch ourselves to reach our potential, and the biggest difference philosophically between our homeschool and my public school experience is that we revel in finding mistakes, getting right down to the bottom of them to figure out where things went wrong. Forensic math is fun. If DD were concerned about "keeping up her grades" she wouldn't have this mindset, and, truth be told, it's sometimes difficult for me to pull off. Ah, but I'm getting better every day. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kay in Cal Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 :iagree:My rule of thumb for math is that if child isn't making occasional mistakes (real mistakes, not computational ones) or having to occasionally stop and THINK, the material is too easy. We need to stretch ourselves to reach our potential, and the biggest difference philosophically between our homeschool and my public school experience is that we revel in finding mistakes, getting right down to the bottom of them to figure out where things went wrong. :) I agree! I think that rigorous material will be a little bit "tough"--if it is so easy that there is no effort involved then there is no opportunity to develop either to full potential or develop a work ethic. My older ds is constitutionally inclined to give the least effort possible--he comes by this honestly, as I struggle with giving "least effort" when not challenged. Since academics come easy for him, I have to be proactive in supplying curricula that are challenging. Nothing should be impossible, but I don't see the value in using teaching materials that don't call my children to actually LEARN. And I believe that real learning can indeed be fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildiris Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 The most valuable result of all education is to make you do the thing you have to do, when it ought to be done, whether you like it or not. ~THOMAS HUXLEY Education is knowing where to find what you want. ~WOODROW WILSON I wonder is rigorous, tough, strict, challenging, etc. more a product of the parent mind-our projection both on a curricula and our desires for our child's success than what goes through the student's mind. ????? I also wonder at your definition of rigorous, tough, and strict curriculum. Does this mean the curriculum you've chosen requires the student the exercise a greater amount of self-discipline and independence, or does it require a greater amount of monitoring by the parent correcting, grading, and interaction? Perhaps I missed something, but I thought one of the beauties of home education was to work at the child's level, become attuned to their needs and encourage them to become the best they can be in all of their endeavors. Making mistakes is how we learn and better ourselves. Making mistakes is one of the ways we deepen our understanding of things; it encourages us to ask the hows and whys of a problem and stimulates the what if questions. One of the other beauties of home education is that if your curriculum path misses its mark, you can modify it suit your current needs, or abandon some or all of it until later. For example, I chose a vocabulary program meant for advanced, accelerated learners. I thought my DD was this advanced student and purchased the program only to find the words were much too advanced and we slogged through only a few pages before putting it on the shelf for a later date. Another example, DD loves fantasy, mystery fluff reading. While it is reading, she doesn't read "good" books. By good I mean books that challenge her thinking on a topic and expand her understanding of what it means to be human. Only on a desert island would she read such a book. This is a place that I push unrelentingly. We listen to books on CD, we read books together, discuss and argue from our different points of view. I think burnout occurs when the student isn't engaged in learning. They come up with questions like "What's in it for me? Why do I need to know algebra anyway." An aside: I heard a young professor who had terminal cancer on the radio the other day. While I didn't hear all of his good-bye lecture to his students, I did hear him say that one can never have too much fun in life. With the time he had remaining and while his health was still good he was going to have fun and laugh. Life seems way too short for our children not to have fun and learning at the same time. Wildiris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titianmom Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 A good curriculum is one where the child is learning and is still willing to get up in the morning and hit the books. If it's a fight to get them up in the morning, then there is something wrong with the curriculum, probably. Have a good talk with the kids. If they're done in 15 mins, then it's too easy for them, LOL. You know your child. You know what they can produce. You know when they are't giving you their best. You know when they aren't feeling well, when the weekend has been too busy, etc. Don't worry about it. I keep ref'ing Core Knowledge "what your child should know" series, just to make sure that we're on the right path. I think this series is a very good gauge. Find a gauge out there somewhere that you have confidence in, and use it to judge where your little students are at, AND RELAX. They're probably doing better than you think. If for no other reason, they have a personal tutor and probably cover twice as much as the schools do. Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in MA Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Who's to say that school can't be rigorous and fun? I'm more interested in what everyone's definition of "fun" is! Does fun imply that no effort is involved? Does fun mean that we're always laughing and giggling while doing our work? Can "fun" be defined as being interested in what you're learning, working at the best level you can and experiencing the rewards of that? It's not play time, it's an education. I often think there's way too much emphasis on education being "fun" these days anyway. I guess I'd rather have my kids come away feeling good about working hard on things and succeeding; proud of what they've accomplished. If, ten years from now, all they can say about their homeschooling experience is that is was "fun", I'd feel I'd not done a very good job. As far as rigorousness, the only thing I can say is that I'm constantly amazed at the level and rigor that my girls are able to achieve. I never would have known that if I didn't push them. The main reason we pulled out of ps was I felt they weren't being pushed at all. Nor were they having fun, for that matter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanie Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 Can "fun" be defined as being interested in what you're learning, working at the best level you can and experiencing the rewards of that? Yes! That is what I strive for in my own home. For instance, I wouldn't call learning Latin a laugh riot, but it is deeply satisfying. I despise math, but mastering a difficult (to me) concept gives me a real feeling of accomplishment. That is what I want for my children, and they wouldn't have it if we didn't work on challenging material. I find our homeschool runs best when we don't particularly want to sit down and do lessons in the morning, but a few hours later we're all glad we did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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