S/O.......requiring APs for a college bound high school diploma

[8filltheheart]

I am really perturbed by this this morning. While I have nothing against AP exams, goodness my 10th grader is taking 2 APs this yr, I am more than flummoxed at the notion that a college bound student MUST be capable of college level work in high school in order to be even eligible to earn a college-bound diploma.

 

I'm curious about how many states require APs for a college-bound diploma. This is the first I have encountered it.

 

I also wonder why? Why not require more stringent high school level standards? Why cripple students that may not perform well on tests? (I really can't imagine a sr taking AP exams w/the pressure that if they don't make 3s they won't receive a college bound diploma.) Our 17 yod is definitely college-bound material, but she would choke under that kind of pressure. It wouldn't phase our ds. I just can't believe that all "quality" college bound students are like our ds.

 

Does this just make any sense at all? Or am I off in lala land? How many of you are gearing your students this way? (I can tell you that very few here are!! I have an academic-oriented support group for moms that want high standards and I only have a handful of moms interested and even then, none of them are going the AP route b/c they all use the CC.)

 

ETA: Kathy in Richmond clarified that I did misinterpret KY's laws. Their pre-college diploma does NOT require the APs, but their Commonwealth diploma does. (even so, I am still shocked that any diploma requires non-high school level achievement. It is a high school diploma for pete's sake.)

Edited December 1, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[creekland]

Our state (PA) certainly doesn't require APs. If they did, no one from my high school would get a college bound diploma.

 

I also don't agree with requiring either those or DE credits. I think AP (preferably) or DE should be offered, but not required for a high school diploma (even college bound).

[choirfarm]

Yes, you know it is interesting. My dh took NO honors courses in high school. None. He still graduated in the top 10, which would have been impossible in my school since you got extra points. His SAT score was marginal 1100, I think or something like it. But he graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Baylor...only made 2 B's. He then went on to make honors society in med school. He graduated near the top of med school. He has aced all of his board tests. But he admits that he probably wouldn't be able to get into medical school in the current era. Some of these requirements don't take late bloomers ( He made AWFUL grades in early elementary. His birthday is at the end of August.)

[Melissa B]

I was going to say not in Florida, but I checked online first and now in order to get the three-year college prep degree:

 

1All courses earned toward the 3-year/18-credit College Prep Program must satisfy admission requirements for the State University System (SUS). To determine which courses meet State University System admission requirements, please use the Comprehensive Course Table or see high school counselor for assistance. At least 6 of the 18 credits must be in courses that include dual enrollment, Advanced Placement (AP), International Baccalaureate (IB), and Advanced International Certificate of Education (AICE), or are specifically listed as rigorous by the Department of Education.

 

 

 

So, you do have to do AP or DE level classes for the three-year college prep diploma. But the four-year college prep diploma still does not require any college level classes.

[creekland]

Yes, you know it is interesting. My dh took NO honors courses in high school. None. He still graduated in the top 10, which would have been impossible in my school since you got extra points. His SAT score was marginal 1100, I think or something like it. But he graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Baylor...only made 2 B's. He then went on to make honors society in med school. He graduated near the top of med school. He has aced all of his board tests. But he admits that he probably wouldn't be able to get into medical school in the current era. Some of these requirements don't take late bloomers ( He made AWFUL grades in early elementary. His birthday is at the end of August.)

 

Hubby and I were talking about this this morning too. His high school had no AP courses, but did have Honors. His SAT was marginal. He didn't even have a great first year in college, but he graduated as an Engineer and has had a successful business for 12 years now (plus worked for others before then).

 

We've had doctors (profs?) at top med schools tell us they don't think they'd make the cut to get into their own med schools if they had to qualify using today's standards. One said he'd be lucky if he were the janitor cleaning up the mess afterward. It makes me wonder how much talent is going to waste.

[Julie in MN]

I feel like all these rules are not only trying to make high schoolers be college students (and wasting the opportunity to explore more in high school), but are making colleges run like high schools -- i.e. everyone must be the same, creating a cookie-cutter student body.

 

I imagine that some of what I read on these boards is about states where "everyone" now expects to go to state universities, and those schools must weed out these kids somehow, because of the tax expense?

 

I personally would not want to attend a university that didn't accept students from all walks of life. Even if the state was paying for me, I wouldn't value that education. Even if riches were promised, I wouldn't spend my life on that track. And from my son's experience at least, I know that good careers can still be had without that extreme kind of marching in line.

 

Julie

[snowbeltmom]

According to the information listed on our local public school website, the public schools in the state of Ohio can issue one of two diplomas: regular diploma or honors diploma. While all students must pass the five sections on the Ohio Graduation Test, neither diploma level requires any AP tests.

[lewelma]

I met an Indian man here in New Zealand who moved here because there was just too much competition in India for his sons to ever be successful. You could have a child who was 1 in a 1000, but then you would have 1000's of them applying for entry into university because there are just so many people. So, in India the expectations have ratcheted up year after year after year until they are just crushing for young people. I am seeing this happening in America, and this thread just reinforces my observations. It is so sad and frustrating, and I don't think it is going to stop.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Jen the RD]

I am really perturbed by this this morning. While I have nothing against AP exams, goodness my 10th grader is taking 2 APs this yr, I am more than flummoxed at the notion that a college bound student MUST be capable of college level work in high school in order to be even eligible to earn a college-bound diploma.

 

I'm curious about how many states require APs for a college-bound diploma. This is the first I have encountered it.

 

WHAT?? You are not in lala land and I, too, am scratching my head. What is the rationale for these types of requirements??? I live in GA, and I don't think this is a requirement; at least not yet.

 

We've had doctors (profs?) at top med schools tell us they don't think they'd make the cut to get into their own med schools if they had to qualify using today's standards. One said he'd be lucky if he were the janitor cleaning up the mess afterward. It makes me wonder how much talent is going to waste.

 

creekland, I couldn't agree with you more. Wasted talent is just the tip of the iceberg. I see more far reaching ramifications in terms of a teen's confidence, self-worth, and hope for any future. With other pressures from society, how can this not set a depressing mood for these young people.

 

Kids mature at different rates and the teen brain is still developing. There is so much scientific evidence to support this from the academic community, yet THEY overlook their own science. I just don't get that! OK, off my soapbox now....

 

Jennifer

[Lang Syne Boardie]

:lurk5:

[Chez J]

At risk of beating everyone on the head with the Texas requirements, I'll discuss those in this post. It is germane to the post.

 

Texas currently has three different diploma programs: minimum, recommended, and distinguished. Recommended is pretty much the standard for any state school admissions. However, with the "top 10" law, anyone outside of that top 10 should probably go for the distinguished. The easiest way to accomplish that is with 4 AP tests or PSAT score.

 

1.What is the Distinguished Achievement Program?

The Distinguished Achievement Program requires high performance beyond that usually expected of students in high school. In addition to specific course requirements, the Distinguished Achievement Program requires that all students successfully complete any combination of four advanced measures that focus on demonstrated student performance at the college level or work equivalent to that done by professionals in the arts, sciences, business, industry, or in community service. These measures are judged by external sources of evaluation.

 

2. What are advanced measures?

Advanced measures are those items that meet the standards included in 19 TAC §74.13(a)(3). They reflect student performance at a college or professional level and are assessed by external evaluators. The items adopted by the State Board of Education as meeting those standards are as follows:



Original research and/or project that is:

o

judged by a panel of professionals in the field that is the focus of the project; or

o

conducted under the direction of mentor(s) and reported to an appropriate audience; and

o

related to the required curriculum set forth in §74.1 relating to the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills (TEKS).



Test data where a student receives:

o

a score of three or above on a College Board Advanced Placement examination;

o

a score of four or above on an International Baccalaureate examination; or

o

a score on the PSAT that qualifies a student for recognition as a Commended Scholar or higher by the National Merit Scholarship Corporation, as part of the National Hispanic Scholar Program of the College Board, or as part of the National Achievement Scholarship program for Outstanding Negro Students of the National Merit Scholarship Corporation. The PSAT score may count as only one advanced measure regardless of the number of honors received by the student.



College courses: college academic courses, advanced technical credit courses, and dual credit courses with a grade of 3.0 or higher.

Students must earn at least four advanced measures and may do so in almost any combination. For example, one student may receive a score of three or higher on four Advanced Placement examinations. Another may have a score of three or higher on two Advanced Placement examinations, complete a project in a mentorship program, and achieve an "A" or "B" in a community college dual enrollment course. A third student could take two college courses for high school credit, produce a portfolio of exemplary work in a specific field, and be recognized as a National Merit Finalist. The only state limitation on acceptable combinations of advanced measures is that no more than two (2) may be earned through original research projects, though local districts may have additional requirements.

[TechWife]

Here AP's are not a high school graduation requirement. However, some state schools will tell you that they like to see "one or two SAT II or AP score's on a home school application."

 

I'm hoping that we'll get a couple of SAT II's under ds's belt, & there are be some AP subjects he's interested in (Studio Art & 3-D Design, Environmental Science and Human Geography). If his interest continues & he studies well, then I'll find a way for him to take the AP exams. However, I do agree with you that high school students shouldn't be expected to perform at a college level. I think the testing has gotten out of hand in our area w/kids taking 3 or more AP exams. It's crazy.

 

You might be interested in the documentary Race to Nowhere: The Dark Side of America's Achievement Culture.

Edited December 2, 2011 by TechWife

[choirfarm]

At risk of beating everyone on the head with the Texas requirements, I'll discuss those in this post. It is germane to the post.

 

Texas currently has three different diploma programs: minimum, recommended, and distinguished. Recommended is pretty much the standard for any state school admissions. However, with the "top 10" law, anyone outside of that top 10 should probably go for the distinguished. The easiest way to accomplish that is with 4 AP tests or PSAT score.

 

Ok, I don't see how this matters. I'm from Texas and I cannot put minimum, recommended, etc on my transcript/diploma. It doesn't apply to homeschoolers.

[Chez J]

Ok, I don't see how this matters. I'm from Texas and I cannot put minimum, recommended, etc on my transcript/diploma. It doesn't apply to homeschoolers.

 

Why can you not put it if your student meets the criteria?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Well it matters to the extent that heavy coursework in AP is becoming the norm in some areas.

 

I am finding it is not uncommon in my county to have upper level high schoolers who have 5-10 AP courses upon graduation. In fact, there is a bit of a debate at the moment because the only options for US history are regular and AP. There are no longer honors courses in a variety of subjects at most of the high schools.

 

In addition to this, I'm finding many students who are taking a full load of courses at school, plus taking a course or two online (I'm guessing through Virtual Virginia).

 

It matters to me because these are the students that my kids will be competing against for college slots and scholarships.

[creekland]

Well it matters to the extent that heavy coursework in AP is becoming the norm in some areas.

 

...

 

It matters to me because these are the students that my kids will be competing against for college slots and scholarships.

 

This is my concern too.

 

I've been pondering WHY things have increased so much lately (med school, college entrance, etc), then I remembered that the population of the US has increased considerably, but the number of slots out there haven't increased much - if at all. There's simply more competition now. I guess it would drop back down if the population of each particular class decreased. I think that is happening some, but it's definitely not in time for my guys.

[Ester Maria]

Nonsense.

 

The exit exams at one level of schooling should not request the knowledge from the next level schooling, the one the student is about to access. The completion of one level of schooling should not in any way, shape or form be dependent upon the completion of courses pertaining to the next level of schooling. It should not even be the standard recommendation, but a comparatively rare choice of unusually high achieving students.

 

What should be done and promoted instead of this nonsense is the return of dignity to high school level courses as high school, not middle school level courses. Way too many high schools are in the "honors middle school" mode, just like way too many middle schools are in "honors elementary" mode, AND just like many colleges are in "honors high school" mode - one of the reasons for this mess is the absurd recommendation to work at a level above. It starts with academics-heavy kindergartens and ends with degrees that are one educational ladder below their European equivalents (before the reform, as Europe is heading the American way now too on the path of destruction), whereas traditionally in Europe children were playing, letters were learned in first grade, but a first degree had a weight of many an American advanced degree - because everything was fleshed out well and each educational stage had its own logic and criteria, so children were naturally ready for high school after middle school and naturally ready for college after high school, due to nice gradual transition and clear expectations. And NOBODY was doing college in high school (even though, when done well, a traditional lycee is pretty much American college level anyway), because there was simply no need to rush. At 15 you were doing proper lycee work and at 19 you were doing proper college work - all in its season, roughly corresponding to your developmental season anyway.

 

Nowadays, good kids are pretty much forced into APs because there is no solid high school level, so the choice is between "honors middle school" and college level work - to the point that, if you do not choose college level work, whatever high school work you did is underappreciated as high school work, due to the inflation of grades and lowering of standards. Now, we could debate whether all APs are true college level in the first place, but it is still not fair to push them onto kids. Of course, I understand people doing it - and perhaps it IS wiser not to fight the system, however crazy it is, but to adapt yourself to it, as the people who are doing this are the ones your kids will be competing against - but the whole thing is positively insane.

[choirfarm]

I completely understand THIS concern. I guess what I don't get is it isn't like I can or even want to put it on my transcript. I mean, the transcript is just a transcript. Where would a distingued part even go and then if the colleges see that it won't really MEAN anything to them since it is a homeschool diploma and not accredited or anything. My transcript will stand on its own merit. My oldest will have 5 or 6 AP classes by the time he graduates and 6 dual credit courses, so he will be fine. I really don't care whether or not I meet the requiremnts. That said, I think the points you and Creekland bring up are valid.

 

Well it matters to the extent that heavy coursework in AP is becoming the norm in some areas.

 

I am finding it is not uncommon in my county to have upper level high schoolers who have 5-10 AP courses upon graduation. In fact, there is a bit of a debate at the moment because the only options for US history are regular and AP. There are no longer honors courses in a variety of subjects at most of the high schools.

 

In addition to this, I'm finding many students who are taking a full load of courses at school, plus taking a course or two online (I'm guessing through Virtual Virginia).

 

It matters to me because these are the students that my kids will be competing against for college slots and scholarships.

[Chez J]

I completely understand THIS concern. I guess what I don't get is it isn't like I can or even want to put it on my transcript. I mean, the transcript is just a transcript. Where would a distingued part even go and then if the colleges see that it won't really MEAN anything to them since it is a homeschool diploma and not accredited or anything. My transcript will stand on its own merit. My oldest will have 5 or 6 AP classes by the time he graduates and 6 dual credit courses, so he will be fine. I really don't care whether or not I meet the requiremnts. That said, I think the points you and Creekland bring up are valid.

 

Disclaimer: my dd is not in high school yet. So, take what I'm suggesting with a huge grain of salt. ;)

 

But, if your student takes 4 AP tests and gets a 3 or above score, that gives him/her the status of distinguised achievement. I don't remember what it said about DE. Don't cheat your child out of this accolade because of a "form design" issue.

 

I would find a way to label the transcript as such! Make the title read Distinguished Diploma Transcript or some such wording. I'm operating with the expectation there are check-boxes that admins complete. I want all possible check-boxes completed. :D If that means typing Distinguished as a heading, so be it. Make a category or section on the transcript such as Accomplishments for Distinguished Merit: and list the criteria. Itemize the four AP tests and scores. Or, document the special research project.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I completely understand THIS concern. I guess what I don't get is it isn't like I can or even want to put it on my transcript. I mean, the transcript is just a transcript. Where would a distingued part even go and then if the colleges see that it won't really MEAN anything to them since it is a homeschool diploma and not accredited or anything. My transcript will stand on its own merit. My oldest will have 5 or 6 AP classes by the time he graduates and 6 dual credit courses, so he will be fine. I really don't care whether or not I meet the requiremnts. That said, I think the points you and Creekland bring up are valid.

 

Ah, that part I can agree with. I think that putting an adjective on a diploma or on a course when is no real academic buffet might be seen as suspicious.

 

I was pretty much on honors track in high school and hope to provide the same or similar to my kids. But I don't know that I will put "honors" on a transcript that only applies to one kid.

 

Though I reserve the right to change my mind. For example, last year ds #1 applied to a stem camp. There were boxes to check if courses were honors, AP or IB. Now I think that their AoPS algebra is pretty demanding and I think their AMC scores may bear that our.

[choirfarm]

But, if your student takes 4 AP tests and gets a 3 or above score, that gives him/her the status of distinguised achievement. I don't remember what it said about DE. Don't cheat your child out of this accolade because of a "form design" issue.

 

I would find a way to label the transcript as such! Make the title read Distinguished Diploma Transcript or some such wording. I'm operating with the expectation there are check-boxes that admins complete. I want all possible check-boxes completed. :D If that means typing Distinguished as a heading, so be it. Make a category or section on the transcript such as Accomplishments for Distinguished Merit: and list the criteria. Itemize the four AP tests and scores. Or, document the special research project.

 

Ok.. think about it from a college admission officer who is looking at thousands of applicants. They see homeschool on the admission and the word distinguished or whatever has no meaning whatsoever. I'm having a hard enough time keeping the transcript to one page. They really don't want a section where you then have to describe what distiguished is. Plus, it will still come across as a mommy grade. It just will. I'm hoping his test scores will speak for themselves. So far a 5 on AP Stats and 730 on Am His SAT II. This year AP Chem and Gov, possibly Lit. Next year AP Calc, Physics and Economics. Surely that will speak for itself. The designation of distinguished is meaningless.

[Roadrunner]

My friend took 10 AP classes in high school. She did manage to go to an Ivy. She isn't sure she would get admitted if she were to apply today. It has gotten that competitive and this is over the past 8 years.

I think schools need to put a limit on a number of AP classes a child is allowed to take in HS. I agree with improving standards for Honors classes and I don't mind HS kids taking and competing with SAT subject exams to show proficiency.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My friend took 10 AP classes in high school. She did manage to go to an Ivy. She isn't sure she would get admitted if she were to apply today. It has gotten that competitive and this is over the past 8 years.

I think schools need to put a limit on a number of AP classes a child is allowed to take in HS. I agree with improving standards for Honors classes and I don't mind HS kids taking and competing with SAT subject exams to show proficiency.

 

Why should there be a limit on AP courses? Just to make it fair?

 

Not sure I buy that.

 

But I don't think that we should make AP courses the mainstay of high school for college bound students. I really think that the high number of AP courses in high schools indicates that AP courses and exams are not quite college level (or are entry level), not that such a vast number of high schoolers are ready for college level work.

[Chez J]

Ok.. think about it from a college admission officer who is looking at thousands of applicants. They see homeschool on the admission and the word distinguished or whatever has no meaning whatsoever. I'm having a hard enough time keeping the transcript to one page. They really don't want a section where you then have to describe what distiguished is. Plus, it will still come across as a mommy grade. It just will. I'm hoping his test scores will speak for themselves. So far a 5 on AP Stats and 730 on Am His SAT II. This year AP Chem and Gov, possibly Lit. Next year AP Calc, Physics and Economics. Surely that will speak for itself. The designation of distinguished is meaningless.

 

Yeah, I guess the admissions person might miss that section.

 

I fully intend for any AP class we have to be an accredited AP class - either through an outside program or by my submitting to the approval. So, Mommy grade wouldn't apply in those classes. My class would be listed in the registry sent to universities. At least that's how I understand it.

 

But, isn't there a place where those AP tests are listed on the transcript? Don't people include SATs on the transcript? In a regular high school, don't students who graduation Magna or Summa Cum Laude have that listed on the transcript?

 

I've seen plenty of transcript templates that include tests on it. That's where the distinction can be shown. Least that's how I see it. Again, I'm not there yet, so I'm still thinking about all this.

 

Texas universities know what distinguised is. * with a footnote would work, right?

[Roadrunner]

Why should there be a limit on AP courses? Just to make it fair?

 

 

Fair ? I am not sure I understand.

 

I think because bunch of kids are popping pills to stay awake and cram in studying. I don't think kids should be surviving on 4-5 hours of sleep just to make it to the Ivy. One of my friend's sons just made it to Princeton using that method.

I understand that this isn't a widespread problem, but for those competing for top schools, it's out of hand.

Isn't high school for high school level classes? Honors for top students and regular for the rest? If a child can handle 10 AP classes, maybe that kid shouldn't be in high school, but college. Early graduation?

[Roadrunner]

Yeah, I guess the admissions person might miss that section.

 

I fully intend for any AP class we have to be an accredited AP class - either through an outside program or by my submitting to the approval. So, Mommy grade wouldn't apply in those classes. My class would be listed in the registry sent to universities. At least that's how I understand it.

 

But, isn't there a place where those AP tests are listed on the transcript? Don't people include SATs on the transcript? In a regular high school, don't students who graduation Magna or Summa Cum Laude have that listed on the transcript?

 

I've seen plenty of transcript templates that include tests on it. That's where the distinction can be shown. Least that's how I see it. Again, I'm not there yet, so I'm still thinking about all this.

 

Texas universities know what distinguised is. * with a footnote would work, right?

Taking IP classes without taking IP exams doesn't mean much. A kid needs to score 4 or 5 on AP exam to make it count. I think anybody who gets that score proves his knowledge and colleges will see those scores.

[regentrude]

I think because bunch of kids are popping pills to stay awake and cram in studying. I don't think kids should be surviving on 4-5 hours of sleep just to make it to the Ivy. One of my friend's sons just made it to Princeton using that method.

I understand that this isn't a widespread problem, but for those competing for top schools, it's out of hand.

 

But nobody HAS to go to an Ivy. There are plenty of fine schools for students who do not wish to participate in this craziness, and they get a good education. I see nothing to be upset about.

 

Isn't high school for high school level classes? Honors for top students and regular for the rest? If a child can handle 10 AP classes, maybe that kid shouldn't be in high school, but college. Early graduation?

Compared to high school in other parts of the world, the typical US high school course is very easy, and doing well in a course like this does not tell a selective school anything about the applicants academic quality. What is AP here, is standard course level for a college bound high school student elsewhere - so I do not think anything wrong with a selective university wanting to see AP level work in order to find out who are the best students.

A standard high school course is geared towards the standard, average student. A school who wishes to select from the top 5% needs a measure that can distinguish - the "high school level" class does not cut it.

The point of being a selective school is that you can take applicants who have studied at AP level in high school, so that you can teach them at a higher level at the university. If this was not the case, what would be the point of trying to get into these schools in the first place?

 

I think schools need to put a limit on a number of AP classes a child is allowed to take in HS.

REALLY???

As it is, already a gifted student is not challenged in the US public school system. Some students would need all AP classes, starting from 8th grade on, to be even a little bit challenged. Limiting access to these classes will water down the education even more. Let's all march to the beat of the slowest drummer, so no child is left behind - by not letting any get ahead.

Thanks for reminding me why we homeschool.

Edited December 2, 2011 by regentrude

[regentrude]

I am really perturbed by this this morning. While I have nothing against AP exams, goodness my 10th grader is taking 2 APs this yr, I am more than flummoxed at the notion that a college bound student MUST be capable of college level work in high school in order to be even eligible to earn a college-bound diploma.

 

I also wonder why? Why not require more stringent high school level standards?

 

I understand the "systematic" problem of requiring a college level class for a high school degree. OTOH, the AP level of work is pretty much what is considered high school level work for a university bound student in my home country (students not wishing to attend the university do not have to perform at this level).

(This also means that the level of introductory classes at the university can be of a more challenging level than it is here.)

The more stringent high school level standards for university bound students which you and I would love to see would be AP standards in my opinion. I agree that the test format leaves to be desired.

[Roadrunner]

I understand the "systematic" problem of requiring a college level class for a high school degree. OTOH, the AP level of work is pretty much what is considered high school level work for a university bound student in my home country (students not wishing to attend the university do not have to perform at this level).

(This also means that the level of introductory classes at the university can be of a more challenging level than it is here.)

The more stringent high school level standards for university bound students which you and I would love to see would be AP standards in my opinion. I agree that the test format leaves to be desired.

 

I would agree about public schools. The standards are horrible. I guess I am thinking about college prep private schools and for what I have seen with my friends kids, Honors classes are truly challenging honors classes and AP classes are truly good level college classes. I think we were making different assumptions. I do afterschool for the reason that PS standards are horrible, and I do agree (I also come from a different country) that first two years of college classes in HS average college was covered in HS. I guess I would advocate making PS standards higher across the board and making college classes trully college classes. Otherwise, why are we even calling it college.

[kiana]

I would agree about public schools. The standards are horrible. I guess I am thinking about college prep private schools and for what I have seen with my friends kids, Honors classes are truly challenging honors classes and AP classes are truly good level college classes. I think we were making different assumptions. I do afterschool for the reason that PS standards are horrible, and I do agree (I also come from a different country) that first two years of college classes in HS average college was covered in HS. I guess I would advocate making PS standards higher across the board and making college classes trully college classes. Otherwise, why are we even calling it college.

 

Because then we would have to face up to the fact that not everyone can complete a college-prep diploma.

[Ester Maria]

Because then we would have to face up to the fact that not everyone can complete a college-prep diploma.

C'est la vie. It is what it is. Different people have different strengths and different paths in life to take. If college prep school is not somebody's thing, it is not the standards that should be changed to appease somebody, rather, the person who cannot handle the work is to be redirected to another path.

[tex-mex]

I would agree about public schools. The standards are horrible. I guess I am thinking about college prep private schools and for what I have seen with my friends kids, Honors classes are truly challenging honors classes and AP classes are truly good level college classes. I think we were making different assumptions. I do afterschool for the reason that PS standards are horrible, and I do agree (I also come from a different country) that first two years of college classes in HS average college was covered in HS. I guess I would advocate making PS standards higher across the board and making college classes trully college classes. Otherwise, why are we even calling it college.

It used to be decades ago, AP classes were challenging the gifted in public schools. A novel concept. But soon many public schools offered AP classes and in some people's opinion, it became watered down. Now, everyone can take AP if they are college bound.

 

Now the latest in public schools to gear up academically is the International Bacculaureate program or IB. Many magnet public schools offer this program and if the student passes the IB exam, they get sophomore standing in college with an IB diploma. However, it is a rigorous program and not all students earn the IB diploma.

[tex-mex]

C'est la vie. It is what it is. Different people have different strengths and different paths in life to take. If college prep school is not somebody's thing, it is not the standards that should be changed to appease somebody, rather, the person who cannot handle the work is to be redirected to another path.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[kiana]

C'est la vie. It is what it is. Different people have different strengths and different paths in life to take. If college prep school is not somebody's thing, it is not the standards that should be changed to appease somebody, rather, the person who cannot handle the work is to be redirected to another path.

 

Ester Maria, *I* agree with you. It is the system who does not agree with you (witness the administrators in Florida who wished to ban middle school post-algebra classes, because of the racial divide within them -- or the administrators who chose to stop using Singapore Math and switch to Everyday Math, because although Singapore Math raised the scores of the dullest kids, it raised the scores of the brightest kids MORE -- whereas Everyday Math flattened the scores of the brightest kids and raised the scores of the dullest kids.)

[Ester Maria]

Ester Maria, *I* agree with you. It is the system who does not agree with you (witness the administrators in Florida who wished to ban middle school post-algebra classes, because of the racial divide within them -- or the administrators who chose to stop using Singapore Math and switch to Everyday Math, because although Singapore Math raised the scores of the dullest kids, it raised the scores of the brightest kids MORE -- whereas Everyday Math flattened the scores of the brightest kids and raised the scores of the dullest kids.)

[bold emphasis mine]

THEY WHAT?!?! Somehow I did not hear about that particular story as I rarely follow what goes on with math teaching, but having seen Everyday Math...

 

Are they out of their mind?!?!

 

Human stupidity really is endless, isn't it? :confused: No wonder schools are a mess if they are guided by political correctness at the expense of learning.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Teachin'Mine]

Nonsense.

 

The exit exams at one level of schooling should not request the knowledge from the next level schooling, the one the student is about to access. The completion of one level of schooling should not in any way, shape or form be dependent upon the completion of courses pertaining to the next level of schooling. It should not even be the standard recommendation, but a comparatively rare choice of unusually high achieving students.

 

What should be done and promoted instead of this nonsense is the return of dignity to high school level courses as high school, not middle school level courses. Way too many high schools are in the "honors middle school" mode, just like way too many middle schools are in "honors elementary" mode, AND just like many colleges are in "honors high school" mode - one of the reasons for this mess is the absurd recommendation to work at a level above. It starts with academics-heavy kindergartens and ends with degrees that are one educational ladder below their European equivalents (before the reform, as Europe is heading the American way now too on the path of destruction), whereas traditionally in Europe children were playing, letters were learned in first grade, but a first degree had a weight of many an American advanced degree - because everything was fleshed out well and each educational stage had its own logic and criteria, so children were naturally ready for high school after middle school and naturally ready for college after high school, due to nice gradual transition and clear expectations. And NOBODY was doing college in high school (even though, when done well, a traditional lycee is pretty much American college level anyway), because there was simply no need to rush. At 15 you were doing proper lycee work and at 19 you were doing proper college work - all in its season, roughly corresponding to your developmental season anyway.

 

Nowadays, good kids are pretty much forced into APs because there is no solid high school level, so the choice is between "honors middle school" and college level work - to the point that, if you do not choose college level work, whatever high school work you did is underappreciated as high school work, due to the inflation of grades and lowering of standards. Now, we could debate whether all APs are true college level in the first place, but it is still not fair to push them onto kids. Of course, I understand people doing it - and perhaps it IS wiser not to fight the system, however crazy it is, but to adapt yourself to it, as the people who are doing this are the ones your kids will be competing against - but the whole thing is positively insane.

 

:iagree:

[Teachin'Mine]

It used to be decades ago, AP classes were challenging the gifted in public schools. A novel concept. But soon many public schools offered AP classes and in some people's opinion, it became watered down. Now, everyone can take AP if they are college bound.

 

Now the latest in public schools to gear up academically is the International Bacculaureate program or IB. Many magnet public schools offer this program and if the student passes the IB exam, they get sophomore standing in college with an IB diploma. However, it is a rigorous program and not all students earn the IB diploma.

 

From talking with those in the IB programs, it's brutal. They do a huge amount of schoolwork and get little sleep, let alone recreation. That's a heavy price to pay IMO.

 

I had envisioned high school being so different from what it has become. To me, there's so much more to a good high school education than just academics. But no matter what I think it should be, we have to deal with how it is. And as has been said, our students will be competing with these other students for the seat in the class, or the scholarship.

[Chez J]

Because then we would have to face up to the fact that not everyone can complete a college-prep diploma.

 

C'est la vie. It is what it is. Different people have different strengths and different paths in life to take. If college prep school is not somebody's thing, it is not the standards that should be changed to appease somebody, rather, the person who cannot handle the work is to be redirected to another path.

 

:iagree:

 

It is sad that in Texas, starting 2015, ALL students in high school will be required to take the load associated with our recommended diploma. If a student is not capable of that, they have to GET PERMISSION to get a minimum standard diploma.

 

They are now saying that all high school students will take the college-prep level.

 

This is not going to raise the intellect of the worst students. This is going to dumb down the college-prep courses in junior and senior years.

 

I bet this will force state schools to start insisting on AP classes for admissions. UT Austin already requires three APs for admissions to engineering and architecture.

 

Why is it so hard for Americans to admit that not everyone can be an accountant? It is OKAY for someone to work at a restaurant and learn restaurant management. Then get PROMOTIONS. We don't need degrees for some of these jobs!

[creekland]

[bold emphasis mine]

THEY WHAT?!?! Somehow I did not hear about that particular story as I rarely follow what goes on with math teaching, but having seen Everyday Math...

 

Are they out of their mind?!?!

 

Human stupidity really is endless, isn't it? :confused: No wonder schools are a mess if they are guided by political correctness at the expense of learning.

 

Everyday Math has made a mess out of our school district's math learning. However, our elementary and middle school meet state standards, so it evidently isn't super bad... compared to... CPM Math which we use from Pre-Alg on. Our high school is well under state standards. I was in for a math teacher yesterday and had Alg 1B (second year of Alg 1 that's now required of ALL students since they can't get it all in one year), Geometry, and Pre-Calc. I was so frustrated with math skills yesterday that, if I had another opportunity for $$, I'd give up trying to help. I had kids in Pre-Calc who were so helplessly lost and couldn't even tell me that 1/0 was undefined or how to figure out (1/1)/(1/10). Their copying skills were good (copying from the calculator to their paper), but that was it. Of course, they also couldn't tell that an asymptote on the calculator sort of shows a line intersecting, but their brain is supposed to tell them it doesn't. No, they just drew it exactly as their calculator had it. It must be that way, after all. Zooming in changed a couple of minds, but I had to tell them to do that.

 

Alg 1B was horrid. They were doing quiz corrections. Almost all had dismal scores and that's WITH the test being horrendously easy AND the teacher allowing partial credit - even for wrong answers (the part he gave credit for still had the wrong answers on some of the tests - small errors, but nonetheless errors - like leaving an extra 'x' in the equation or a + sign instead of a - sign). When I was trying to help them I had to back up way farther than they were supposed to be at in order to get a little bit of knowledge.

 

Geometry was the best, but they were taking a team test. They needed hints on how to do problems on it. At first I resisted (it's a test after all), but then groups were saying they would just wait until he was there as he would give them hints (these were believable kids). So, I gave them a few hints, but nothing too horrid. Some still chose to wait. A couple kids in this class refused to take the team test as they didn't want the other members of their team leeching off them. They flat out told me they do all the work and try while their team members talk and goof around. I let them work by themselves, but I cautioned them that I wasn't doing grades, so didn't know how the teacher would respond to it. One of those did a fairly decent job, but there were still serious gaps in his ability - and he was trying in class. Most aren't. They'll pass anyway, but they won't pass our state test, because, of course, the state test is too unreasonable and doesn't fairly show learning... (so I'm told).

 

 

 

They are now saying that all high school students will take the college-prep level.

 

This is not going to raise the intellect of the worst students. This is going to dumb down the college-prep courses in junior and senior years.

 

I bet this will force state schools to start insisting on AP classes for admissions. UT Austin already requires three APs for admissions to engineering and architecture.

 

Why is it so hard for Americans to admit that not everyone can be an accountant? It is OKAY for someone to work at a restaurant and learn restaurant management. Then get PROMOTIONS. We don't need degrees for some of these jobs!

 

:iagree: Our school doesn't offer much in AP (only AP European History I believe). Where will that leave our kids?

 

I've suggested having honors math classes so those who wanted to really learn math could go into more depth, but it was turned down. "Alg 1 is Alg 1 and it can't really be changed to fit honors or not." We all know that's hogwash - except for those in charge at my school. So, we get the senior who needs to pass Algebra because the state can't recognize that they are better suited in a non-academic field in the same class as the future engineer wannabe. Both suffer. And I'm totally frustrated and wondering what my options are.

 

Did I mention that I agreed to take a long term sub position for an 8th grade math teacher going on maternity leave? I don't know what I was thinking - other than $$ with the economy being down. I don't like full time. I hate our curriculum. I prefer high school to middle school. But now, if I change my mind I've left the school in a bind... and we can use the $$, so... UGH! Hopefully her classes are well-behaved. That would be a start.

 

ps The school's main reservation about having me on the job? That I might not be a "team player" since they know how I feel about the book we use. How can I be a "team player" when I see so many kids get shortchanged???

 

There are a lot of thoughts going on in my mind right now - can you tell?

 

What do I really want? To escape... Hawaii would be nice. Palm trees, beaches...