Here's what I don't get about the "keeper of the home" thing

[Reya]

Here's my 2 cents -

 

I think the "keeping" of the home is a lot like day care - other people can watch my kids and they'll likely be safe - but they're not being "raised" and grown and loved. Other people can clean my house and cook my meals - but it's not my home being kept and there isn't the same level of love in the job. It's the difference between being a "home - maker" and someone who's "just home". I think the calling of a keeper and mom are important and should be taught, encouraged and highly regarded from birth - just like being a doctor or astronaut. I want my daughters to be well prepared for both and to let God do the calling.

 

You have to ask yourself--does your husband really care who is scrubbing the floor, or is it just you?

 

Now, I've been the primary keeper of my home for most of my marriage. At first, I wasn't making money with my work. Then it became an issue of scrimping for that start in life--first house, debt-free cars, etc. I don't LIKE cleaning the house, really, though I do like a clean house! I don't have a "bad attitude" about it, either. If it needs to be done, I do it. I just don't ROMANTICIZE it. It's laundry. It needs to be washed, folded, and put away. There is nothing the least bit superior about me doing it versus hiring it all out and working the same number of hours to pay for it. NOTHING. There is no rosy glow of love that hovers around my freshly paired socks. It's just more convenient at this point, and I choose to do laundry because that's the only TV watching I get in at this point--while I'm doing laundry. *g* I do all the cooking, too--from scratch. But I am a keeper of my TIME as well as the house, and I cook in huge quantities and freeze so that I tend to cook about once to twice per week.

 

Ironing? Yeah. I did that when we first married. Ironed every one of DH's work shirts every week. Then I realized that DH didn't give a flying flip about having ironed work shirts. What he wanted was my time, and I was stealing that from him by making myself feel like a "good wife" and ironing his shirts. It really was a pointless task, with his job--at it is with most modern workers. After that, we bought only no-iron clothes, and I pick up an iron about twice a year at this point.

 

I see SO many women maoning about how they slaaaaave away and their husbands and children just don't APPRECIATE them. Some of that is being honestly taken for granted. (In our family, DH was the one who was absolutely clueless about all things living related. Though I spent no time "learning" it growing up, I can see how much I did learn from what he didn't!) But a lot of what women want to be appreciated for doesn't deserve appreciation. Who cares if you bake all the bread yourself? Your kids would rather have a hug and a game or a story. Your husband would rather have a romantic movie or a back rub. I bake bread, but I do it for fun, and I *put it on my list of priorities* as such. It isn't a duty. Cheap bread costs less than $1 a loaf. Homemade bread costs about $.50 a loaf. You're working at a rate of $.50-1 an hour. Really, now, how can that be justified as a duty? As more important than being with your family? Even if YOU are cleaning houses for $10/hr, it makes more sense to spend an hour cleaning someone else's house and buy bread and other such time-consuming, low-yield tasks. Too many women fill up their days with activities that make them feel like "keepers at home" but that have little to no real value as such, and then they expect to be taken as seriously as if they WEREN'T doing these tasks to make themselves feel good but because there is some real need.

[Tami]

I find science, Greek, and other academic pursuits MUCH easier than homemaking!!! It is a blessing that it is natural to you. Many of us are challenged in the homemaking dept. :blink:

[Danestress]

I find science, Greek, and other academic pursuits MUCH easier than homemaking!!! It is a blessing that it is natural to you. Many of us are challenged in the homemaking dept. :blink:

 

Well, I find them more enjoyable, probably, though when I was in school full-time, housework felt good for a change. I like having a nice home, not so much the word of getting it there. Though on the whole, I don't really dislike housework. Sort of like I like being thin, but I could take exercise or leave it.

 

If housework seems really hard to you, what part of it, though? Is it hard to discipline yourself? Get organized? Have a schedule? Or is it the technical aspects? Do you find it hard to know how to do a job properly? Or what?

 

My house isn't perfect, but when things go undone, it's not because they were too hard .... it's because I was lazy or distracted. Right now, I am dealing with health issues for my parents, so I am actually finding it hard to get certain things done, but I figure it's temporary.

[Asma_08]

You have to ask yourself--does your husband really care who is scrubbing the floor, or is it just you?

 

Now, I've been the primary keeper of my home for most of my marriage. At first, I wasn't making money with my work. Then it became an issue of scrimping for that start in life--first house, debt-free cars, etc. I don't LIKE cleaning the house, really, though I do like a clean house! I don't have a "bad attitude" about it, either. If it needs to be done, I do it. I just don't ROMANTICIZE it. It's laundry. It needs to be washed, folded, and put away. There is nothing the least bit superior about me doing it versus hiring it all out and working the same number of hours to pay for it. NOTHING. There is no rosy glow of love that hovers around my freshly paired socks. It's just more convenient at this point, and I choose to do laundry because that's the only TV watching I get in at this point--while I'm doing laundry. *g* I do all the cooking, too--from scratch. But I am a keeper of my TIME as well as the house, and I cook in huge quantities and freeze so that I tend to cook about once to twice per week.

 

Ironing? Yeah. I did that when we first married. Ironed every one of DH's work shirts every week. Then I realized that DH didn't give a flying flip about having ironed work shirts. What he wanted was my time, and I was stealing that from him by making myself feel like a "good wife" and ironing his shirts. It really was a pointless task, with his job--at it is with most modern workers. After that, we bought only no-iron clothes, and I pick up an iron about twice a year at this point.

 

I see SO many women maoning about how they slaaaaave away and their husbands and children just don't APPRECIATE them. Some of that is being honestly taken for granted. (In our family, DH was the one who was absolutely clueless about all things living related. Though I spent no time "learning" it growing up, I can see how much I did learn from what he didn't!) But a lot of what women want to be appreciated for doesn't deserve appreciation. Who cares if you bake all the bread yourself? Your kids would rather have a hug and a game or a story. Your husband would rather have a romantic movie or a back rub. I bake bread, but I do it for fun, and I *put it on my list of priorities* as such. It isn't a duty. Cheap bread costs less than $1 a loaf. Homemade bread costs about $.50 a loaf. You're working at a rate of $.50-1 an hour. Really, now, how can that be justified as a duty? As more important than being with your family? Even if YOU are cleaning houses for $10/hr, it makes more sense to spend an hour cleaning someone else's house and buy bread and other such time-consuming, low-yield tasks. Too many women fill up their days with activities that make them feel like "keepers at home" but that have little to no real value as such, and then they expect to be taken as seriously as if they WEREN'T doing these tasks to make themselves feel good but because there is some real need.

 

Well since you presented a utilitarian argument against homemaking, may I ask why you home school. Isn't it more efficient to send your children to school so that you can make even more money?

[Reya]

Well since you presented a utilitarian argument against homemaking, may I ask why you home school. Isn't it more efficient to send your children to school so that you can make even more money?

 

There isn't a school that will give my son the kind of education I consider acceptable for him. To find something comparable, I'd have to hire a bevy of tutors. And frankly, it'd be very, very hard for me to find tutors who can do the kind of job I can. And if I could, I doubt I could afford them!

 

I can also only work 4 hours a day, maximum, because of the nature of my job. It's too mentally taxing for me to handle more. I typically work only 2-3. Many in my job work "full time," but 95%+ of those fill up that time with lots of frivolous stuff that isn't really working! I prefer to WORK when I work and not play at it all day like a lot of people in my profession do. :-)

 

So I can either get a second job--impractical because occasionally my workload does swell to 8+ hours a day--or I can find something else to do with the rest of my time. I choose to homeschool.

 

A clean floor is a clean floor. A mostly clean floor is almost as good as a clean floor. Educations aren't interchangeable. And kids are more important than floors!

[dangermom]

If housework seems really hard to you, what part of it, though? Is it hard to discipline yourself? Get organized? Have a schedule? Or is it the technical aspects? Do you find it hard to know how to do a job properly? Or what?

 

I do find it difficult to get organized and do all the jobs that need doing. If I do the amount I think is adequate, I'll turn around and the house will be trashed, because things get dirty faster than I realize they need cleaning. I have a lovely schedule, but since I also educate my kids and have little friends over and take everyone around town and I like to sew and read and spend time on the Internet--well, it's easy to let the housework get squeezed out of a busy day.

 

Also there's a lot of things that I just don't realize need cleaning! I'm getting better over time as I make each discovery, but especially when we first moved into our home, it was perfectly possible for me to realize one day that, say, windowsills have to be washed every so often--and here they are, really gross because I wasn't even looking at them.

 

Some of the trickier things I do have to look up to figure out how to do them. I was quite nervous about pulling the fridge out to vacuum the dust out of the coils.

 

Actually I have now gotten to the point that I would be okay with hiring someone to help me with the housework; I'm about at the limit of what I can reasonably accomplish in a day. But the money is a drawback--we've had a lot of serious financial drains this year (like, we have to go buy a car, and the shower had to be replaced, stuff like that). Maybe in the fall, though.

[Fourmother]

Well since you presented a utilitarian argument against homemaking, may I ask why you home school. Isn't it more efficient to send your children to school so that you can make even more money?

 

I'm not speaking for Reya, but I don't get the impression from her post that she is making a utilitarian argument against homemaking. The impression I get from her post is, "Get over yourself. It's just bread. Bake it if you want, or not. Just don't beat yourself up over it or expect a Nobel Prize." What I take from this is a warning to avoid getting so busy with the minutia of homemaking that you don't have time to enjoy the actual home.

[Georgie]

I don't agree that being a keeper at home is the exclusive domain of women. Times have changed, and I feel men need to know how to keep house just as well as women. My oldest boy is 21, and I taught him to "keep house" the same way I will teach my only daughter who is 4 yo. I don't know when or if my sons will marry. I don't assume that when they do marry their wives will do all or most of the house work. And I certainly don't plan to have let them live at home with me doing all the house work until they marry. :lol:

 

 

 

:iagree:vvEveryone should help out with all the chores. It doesn't matter if you are a boy or girl, husband or a wife. We all pitch in with all of the chores.

[Reya]

I'm not speaking for Reya, but I don't get the impression from her post that she is making a utilitarian argument against homemaking. The impression I get her her post is, "Get over yourself. It's just bread. Bake it if you want, or not. Just don't beat yourself up over it or expect a Nobel Prize." What I take from this is a warning to avoid getting so busy with the minutia of homemaking that you don't have time to enjoy the actual home.

 

Yep. Also, it's an argument for choice. If you LIKE housekeeping--the bits that HAVE to be done, like laundry and vacuuming and scrubbing and dishes and all that--then DO them, by all means, no matter how much money you could be making otherwise! But if you do have the money, realize you're doing them by choice and are giving up other things by choice, too. There are times when I get great satisfaction from a dust rag. *g*

 

If you can't hire the chores out and don't like them, then do 'em anyway. You don't have to love them and you're not a morally inferior person if you don't but you should still have a good attitude because they do have to be done.

 

If you don't like them and can hire them out, hire away! Don't feel for a second like you're less of a "keeper of the home" because someone else sweated over getting that bathtub gleaming. It's just a BATHTUB. It has no idea how much love went into getting it clean. No one has ever declared that all men should be auto mechanics or all women should be teachers and if they don't like it, there's clearly something wrong with them. Cleaning house is no different.

 

If you like the other, frilly bits (I like some of them, too!), do them, too, but PRIORITIZE them correctly--as frilly bits!--and don't make them into something more important than the are. If you don't like the frilly bits, DON'T DO THEM. Really! Don't let your Heloise-cum-Martha-Stewart-cum-prayer-warrior neighbor guilt you into believing that have to do these things to be a good homemaker. You don't. The only person who really cares about these things is usually the wife and, too often, judgmental "friends". Don't let them supplant more important things--like your living, breathing family!

 

Everyone needs to know how to keep house because A) you're probably going to have to do it at some point, no matter what you major in; and B) if you don't know how to do it, you can't direct it effectively, either. So you've got to know what you're doing even if you're paying to have it done for you.

[nmoira]

 

Well since you presented a utilitarian argument against homemaking, may I ask why you home school. Isn't it more efficient to send your children to school so that you can make even more money?

The underlying state of my floors will not change depending who mops them. My shower walls can go years without having soap scum scraped off with a razor blade, nor will they care if it is myself, DH, or hired help who does the job. Neglect or outsourcing will not fundamentally alter the underlying state of the shower walls. My children are people who are in the process of growing, developing, forming into unique individual adults. I cannot go to Home Depot to replace them. I am in charge of their education, and, in this case, it makes a huge difference. I am unapologetic about placing a higher priority on providing my children with the best possible start in life than on the state of my toilet bowls.

[Kathleen in VA]

I've been reading these threads with interest because I have never been able to understand why it seems to so often be presented as this either/or situation. I have an older dd who has moved out (attending college and working). She is perfectly capable of running a home. Yet, I never taught it. It was just simply part of living in this household. She had chores, she worked alongside me. It happened. While I had to teach math, writing, grammar, I never felt we had lessons for housekeeping. Keeping the house never took time away from her academics. What little time was spent on explaining the steps of mopping a floor or scrubbing a toilet is hardly even worth mentioning compared to the amount of time we spent on algebra.

 

As for attitude, I don't believe this is something that can be taught. You can't force a proper attitude. It comes from the heart. And here I believe example is the best teacher, and that will be the mom primarily. If mom has a rotten attitude about keeping the house, girls can certainly pick it up. Again, this doesn't take time away from academics; it's part of everyday. While doing lessons, completing chores, etc.

 

Working moms still have tasks to do around the house in the evening or on weekends. Not much different from the children being in school. I went to school but was able to learn how to keep a house from watching my mom and doing my chores in the evening and on weekend. My mom had a fairly decent attitude about it - probably better than mine - so I can't blame her for my snarky moments. Just my personality.

 

So I don't set aside time for learning the skills of housekeeping, nor do I set aside time to teach attitude. For us, it's just part of living.

 

Janet

 

 

That works fine for people who had good examples to follow. My mom had wonderful housekeeping skills. She was a wonderful cook. I always came home from school to a clean house, clean clothes and good food. She neglected to pass any of that on to me as she considered my schoolwork to be my "job." She wouldn't allow me in the kitchen - too much of a pest I guess. It's great that your daughter has you to follow and I suppose if my mom had allowed me to follow along behind her I would be better equipped now. Not all of us have had that blessing.

 

The main thing about being a keeper at home has to do with prioritizing one's responsibilities. The main idea - the crux - is that your house/family comes first - not your job. These ideas come from the Bible, so if you are not a Christian I don't suppose reasoning about these ideas from scripture is really worthwhile.

 

The Bible clearly teaches in Titus 2 that women are to be "keepers at home." This is not an oppressive, "men are smarter than women" sort of notion. Rather, homemaking is to be seen as a vital part of the fabric of any nation. When folks do not have a refuge from the world to come home to, life becomes a frazzled, unsettling sort of existence and the ramifications spread to the rest of society. Homes are important and therefore need guarding and keeping and nurturing. God, in His word, entrusts this responsibility to women - He made them to be particularly suited to the task. Nothing should take priority over this job.

 

Why not just pay someone else to do it? Well, I suppose it would be possible to hire out some of the jobs - especially if there were illness or some other reason to do so - but, much of homemaking is rooted in the love we have for our family. Your ability to homeschool your children comes from your love for them.

 

I taught in both public and private schools before I had any children and I guarantee you that I did not love any of those children like I love my own. Yes, they were dear and I did "love" them - but not to the depth I love my own. True homemaking requires this kind of love.

[Danestress]

I just realised that my reply may have sounded snotty...it wasn't meant to (here's the target on my back ;) and thank you for replying back so graciously).

 

 

 

Not at all! In my real life circle of friends, women have different ideas and make different choices, and it doesn't feel threatening at all - when you actually know people, you know more the quality of their character and their relationships so it doesn't feel like there is animosity like a board can sometime feel. I just assume people posting to me are great friends:)

 

I find the whole discussion really interesting. I don't wish my mother had really taught me more about housekeeping, I don't feel handicapped. But I do wish that my parents had prepared me more to think about the choices I would make in my life. I wish they had said upfront that they would be proud of me if I were a wife and mother and that I could spend all their money on private schools like I did and not feel obliged to have some fabulous income to justify it.

 

My father was *so* negative about women not working or having "women's jobs" like nursing or teaching. I really felt that the only way to make him proud would be to get professional degrees. I am glad I have them and LOVED school so no sweat. But I wish I had known as a young woman that my father would be my biggest fan when I was homeschooling and just parenting. I would have felt much freer. I realize now that my Dad would be proud of me pretty much no matter what I did as long as I did it well. And I hope my children will always know that - but they don't need to do something impressive or lucrative. They need to do something very very well.

[Reya]

The Bible clearly teaches in Titus 2 that women are to be "keepers at home." This is not an oppressive, "men are smarter than women" sort of notion. Rather, homemaking is to be seen as a vital part of the fabric of any nation. When folks do not have a refuge from the world to come home to, life becomes a frazzled, unsettling sort of existence and the ramifications spread to the rest of society. Homes are important and therefore need guarding and keeping and nurturing. God, in His word, entrusts this responsibility to women - He made them to be particularly suited to the task. Nothing should take priority over this job.

 

Wow. This is some serious confusion of an industrial Victorian home with the economic unit that a preindustrial household was.

 

Look to Proverbs 31 to see what a preindustrial woman DID in "keeping a home." The household was a major business. In fact, the vast majority of MEN also worked at "home." Titus 2 is an admonition to women to be industrious contributors to the family, not warm-and-fuzzy refuge-makers. The money-making business of women (and most men, BTW) was centered around the home. Women who shirked these tasks lurked in doorways and at the well to gossip with friends and flirt with men--and THAT'S what Titus 2 is concerned with. A wealthy woman of the past would NOT have cooked food for her husband with her own hands except as a special occasion. She did not clean her own house. She often enough wasn't the primary person responsible for her own children's upbringing! Instead, she was the manager and supervisor of a small industry centered around (typically) spinning and weaving, real estate, possibly some workshops, and farming.

 

Did you know that a common grounds for divorce in the Ancient Near East was that a woman was not upholding her ECONOMIC contribution by not running her household as an efficient unit of production? Any excellent housekeeper defined in Victorian terms would have been a TERRIBLE ancient wife. Her husband would have been very bitter against her as an economic parasite rather than a contributor. And, yes, he'd have had grounds for divorce!

 

Times change. But you shouldn't get confused by those changing times by applying standards that would have been simply bizarre to the people to whom something was originally addressed.

 

Scrubbing floors can be an act of love. I'd rather show my love by actually, say, playing with my kids, though.

[anewday]

Or they could just work (PT, FT, whatever) and HIRE someone. That'd be a lot closer to the Biblical ideal, after all. None of the wealthy women in the Bible every scrubbed a single floor. There's no need or moral imperative for your daughters to, either, if they can afford not to. If they work a job that pays $30/hr and pay a housekeeper $10-15/hr (today's money, of course), then it only make SENSE to work a little extra and gain that time with the extra income to be with the kids and husband. No one's telling husbands that they must be mindless low-skill manual workers and that if they don't like it, they have a problem with their "hearts." Why are women different?

 

Even relatively well off two-income people today don't often have outside help because they want to use every cent for "fun" things. They want to buy the absolute biggest house they can afford, for example, rather than setting aside some money to hire someone to help maintain a slightly smaller one. But SOMEONE'S got to clean it, and if you don't set aside that money, then the only person that's left is very often YOU! Women don't see the costs of their own time clearly enough to keep from overburdening themselves these days.

 

When I say "I want better for my daughters" what I mean is a work ethic that is based on serving God in whatever they do. I don't want them to be lazy. And I do want them to have a servants heart - to be willing to do those things that aren't "fun" or "glamorous".

 

And I have no problem with college for them if that is what God calls them to. :)

[mommaduck]

I'm a SAHM -- not because it is my duty or obligation, but rather because it made the most sense in our family dynamic given that we were committed to homeschooling and DH made 3x my income. I know too many SAHD's and couples that manage to divide home and work responsibilities to think that the role must be fulfilled by a woman in like circumstances.

That's your opinion and you have a right to it. But for others, it is seen as the duty and obligation of the wives.

 

 

One the subject of "hobbies"...yes, those women may have added those chores in a hobby like manner, but there is also a purpose for them. We never know when our children (male or female) are going to be in a position where those skills and that knowledge becomes a necessity in their lives. Teaching them now will make it easier for them than most of us had in the learning.

[anewday]

When I say "I want better for my daughters" what I mean is a work ethic that is based on serving God in whatever they do. I don't want them to be lazy. And I do want them to have a servants heart - to be willing to do those things that aren't "fun" or "glamorous".

 

And I have no problem with college for them if that is what God calls them to. :)

 

Yes, I'm quoting myself! :tongue_smilie: I wanted to add to this - it's more the norm than not that God's will is for a woman to marry and, I believe, to keep house (which can include making an income). This is a role that I do believe scripture to teach (one of the wife and mother being a keeper at home) and inherently involves self sacrificial service. Men don't have "better jobs" because they generally fill a different role (provider). They involve self sacrifice too.

 

All that said, my original comment was just that homemaking is more than just physical labor. For me, that's not the particularly hard part, rather my heart attitude is. So when I train my daughters to be keepers at home, I am more interested in their HEARTS than the work. And if they never marry and go into the workplace, this is a character quality that will serve them in that capacity as well. I want my son to have the same attitude - a willingness to give and be spent for the sake of others.

 

Ramble ramble ramble...LOL.:D

[mommaduck]

Not at all! In my real life circle of friends, women have different ideas and make different choices, and it doesn't feel threatening at all - when you actually know people, you know more the quality of their character and their relationships so it doesn't feel like there is animosity like a board can sometime feel. I just assume people posting to me are great friends:)

 

I find the whole discussion really interesting. I don't wish my mother had really taught me more about housekeeping, I don't feel handicapped. But I do wish that my parents had prepared me more to think about the choices I would make in my life. I wish they had said upfront that they would be proud of me if I were a wife and mother and that I could spend all their money on private schools like I did and not feel obliged to have some fabulous income to justify it.

 

My father was *so* negative about women not working or having "women's jobs" like nursing or teaching. I really felt that the only way to make him proud would be to get professional degrees. I am glad I have them and LOVED school so no sweat. But I wish I had known as a young woman that my father would be my biggest fan when I was homeschooling and just parenting. I would have felt much freer. I realize now that my Dad would be proud of me pretty much no matter what I did as long as I did it well. And I hope my children will always know that - but they don't need to do something impressive or lucrative. They need to do something very very well.

 

My stepfather and mother were the same. When listing her children to a cousing (my grandmother overhearing my mother's conversation), my mother mentioned first her oldest son, the degree he earned, the job he had, the sports he played, etc. Then her 2nd son, the disabilities he has, the work she does with him, the horseback riding club she helps with because of him, etc. Then she says, "oh, and have a daughter, your oldest cousin, she's married and has x number of kids" (the end). All as though I have done NOTHING to make her proud. I've worked in my life. Nothing ecstatic (yet! ;) ) unless you count the work I did for an author and the establishment of a bookstore/cafe I took part in. I am making plans for my "second life" (after kids). But how my children turn out, I think is something to be looked forward to and to take pride in. If my girls become wives and mothers, I want them to know that I'll be proud of them simply for that...that they don't have to have that ladder climbing career to make me proud. To simply see that they can have a happy marriage and raise their children to be decent humans is something to be proud of. All the other is just icing and icing means squat if the cake is missing ingredients, kwim? We teach our children that though we are making certain they have a good education, we will be proud of them if they become a doctor or a trucker. The world needs a bit of everything to make it go round.

 

And you are so right...boards are not the best forms of communication. Thank you for being so understanding. :)

[mommaduck]

I find science, Greek, and other academic pursuits MUCH easier than homemaking!!! It is a blessing that it is natural to you. Many of us are challenged in the homemaking dept. :blink:

AMEN! :lol: I'd so much rather be reading or in college myself. But, I have time for that after my children are grown. I won't always have my children.

[mommaduck]

Fourmother, I appreciate your response. Please know that many who teach their daughters to be keepers at home also teach their sons the same skills. You never know if your son is going to be a bachelor or have a sick wife. Also, I believe my future daughter in laws will appreciate having husbands that are willing and able to help around the house ;) My husband has had to help and can admittedly cook better than me. The same goes with why I want my girls educated well and am not against a college education for them. I don't know what their future may hold. But I also want them to know why we view things the way we do.

[HRAAB]

That works fine for people who had good examples to follow. My mom had wonderful housekeeping skills. She was a wonderful cook. I always came home from school to a clean house, clean clothes and good food. She neglected to pass any of that on to me as she considered my schoolwork to be my "job." She wouldn't allow me in the kitchen - too much of a pest I guess. It's great that your daughter has you to follow and I suppose if my mom had allowed me to follow along behind her I would be better equipped now. Not all of us have had that blessing.}

 

I was writing in response to the women on this board. From what I've read, they don't seem to be neglectful in the act of passing on homemaking knowledge as your mother was. They seem to take the task of Keeper of the Home seriously, and I was wondering why they felt they needed to 'teach' it since they were already doing it. It seemed to me that most of them were already mentoring their daughters, so I wondered why I kept coming across this idea of 'teaching these skills'. I see this wasn't the case in your upbringing, but it seemed to apply to most of the women here.

 

[The main thing about being a keeper at home has to do with prioritizing one's responsibilities. The main idea - the crux - is that your house/family comes first - not your job. These ideas come from the Bible, so if you are not a Christian I don't suppose reasoning about these ideas from scripture is really worthwhile.]

 

I've re-read my message, and I don't see anything in what I wrote that would lead you to think I'm not a Christian. I was discussing what I saw as forced teaching vs. learning naturally.

 

[The Bible clearly teaches in Titus 2 that women are to be "keepers at home." This is not an oppressive, "men are smarter than women" sort of notion. Rather, homemaking is to be seen as a vital part of the fabric of any nation. When folks do not have a refuge from the world to come home to, life becomes a frazzled, unsettling sort of existence and the ramifications spread to the rest of society. Homes are important and therefore need guarding and keeping and nurturing. God, in His word, entrusts this responsibility to women - He made them to be particularly suited to the task. Nothing should take priority over this job.]

 

I had no idea my message was going to lead to a sermon. I did not at any point write anything such as 'men are smarter than women'. And I didn't think I criticized homemaking.

 

[Why not just pay someone else to do it? Well, I suppose it would be possible to hire out some of the jobs - especially if there were illness or some other reason to do so - but, much of homemaking is rooted in the love we have for our family. Your ability to homeschool your children comes from your love for them.

 

I taught in both public and private schools before I had any children and I guarantee you that I did not love any of those children like I love my own. Yes, they were dear and I did "love" them - but not to the depth I love my own. True homemaking requires this kind of love.

 

I don't think this is in response to my message because I never said anything about hiring out work. Although, if I had the financial resources, I would consider hiring a high school or college girl to help with some of the housework. Homeschooling on top of caring for a home and making it a refuge from the world is a huge responsibility. In my days, there are only 24 hours, and I'm a person who needs 8 hrs. of sleep or I don't function well. The remaining hours have to be split between caring for and educating my children, nurturing and caring for my husband and marriage, shopping and feeding a family of 6 on a tight budget, housework, running children around, and in the summer tending a large garden and orchard (my dh helps much with this in the evenings). Since I'm not superwoman, something usually has to give, and it's usually one of the housework tasks such as mopping the floor or scrubbing the shower. I have to prioritize my tasks, and those are usually less important than ensuring my children's education, being their mother, and being a wife and friend to my husband. Cooking, dishes, shopping, making beds, and right now the garden, come in front of making sure the floor is spotless. So if I could hire a young girl, perhaps helping her save some money for college, I would do it in a heartbeat.

 

My oldest has moved out, my next oldest is finishing up her last year of high school and working part-time to save money for college. When they were younger, they helped me a lot with the more mundane chores. That doesn't happen now. I have a 10 yr old and 7 yr old twins. The 10 year old is a big help, the twins are getting better. :001_smile: They learn as we do the work in the keeping of our house. I guess if I had hired help, then I might have to make a point of showing them how to mop, etc. So maybe my girls are blessed that I can't afford any.

 

Janet

 

P.S. I have not figured out how to do the multi-quote thingy yet.... Some of my responses are inside the quote box. Oops.

[Tami]

Well, I find them more enjoyable, probably, though when I was in school full-time, housework felt good for a change. I like having a nice home, not so much the word of getting it there. Though on the whole, I don't really dislike housework. Sort of like I like being thin, but I could take exercise or leave it.

 

 

I don't have the energy to go into this now, but you sound like quite a woman. Your dh is really blessed!

[Kathleen in VA]

I don't think this is in response to my message because I never said anything about hiring out work. Although, if I had the financial resources, I would consider hiring a high school or college girl to help with some of the housework. Homeschooling on top of caring for a home and making it a refuge from the world is a huge responsibility. In my days, there are only 24 hours, and I'm a person who needs 8 hrs. of sleep or I don't function well. The remaining hours have to be split between caring for and educating my children, nurturing and caring for my husband and marriage, shopping and feeding a family of 6 on a tight budget, housework, running children around, and in the summer tending a large garden and orchard (my dh helps much with this in the evenings). Since I'm not superwoman, something usually has to give, and it's usually one of the housework tasks such as mopping the floor or scrubbing the shower. I have to prioritize my tasks, and those are usually less important than ensuring my children's education, being their mother, and being a wife and friend to my husband. Cooking, dishes, shopping, making beds, and right now the garden, come in front of making sure the floor is spotless. So if I could hire a young girl, perhaps helping her save some money for college, I would do it in a heartbeat.

 

My oldest has moved out, my next oldest is finishing up her last year of high school and working part-time to save money for college. When they were younger, they helped me a lot with the more mundane chores. That doesn't happen now. I have a 10 yr old and 7 yr old twins. The 10 year old is a big help, the twins are getting better. :001_smile: They learn as we do the work in the keeping of our house. I guess if I had hired help, then I might have to make a point of showing them how to mop, etc. So maybe my girls are blessed that I can't afford any.

 

Janet

 

P.S. I have not figured out how to do the multi-quote thingy yet.... Some of my responses are inside the quote box. Oops.

 

A lot of what is in the part that says it is my quote I did not write. I think there are some quotes within quotes there - just for the record.

 

Anyway, I began addressing your comment and then went on to address some other comments without making that clear. Sorry about that.

 

I don't have a problem with hiring out tasks. I would hire someone to scrub my tubs in a heartbeat, as you say. It's not so much who does what task. It is who manages it all - who is ultimately responsible to overseeing that every task gets done. That makes me think of the housekeeper in a large manor house, for instance, and how she was in charge of all the staff and made sure everything got done.

 

I'm only saying that this running of the household - no matter who is the actual person or machine who/that performs each task - is something that needs doing and that it needs to be a priority for the sake of the family. There are always exceptions to every rule. Circumstances effect us all in different ways.

[Kathleen in VA]

Wow. This is some serious confusion of an industrial Victorian home with the economic unit that a preindustrial household was.

 

Look to Proverbs 31 to see what a preindustrial woman DID in "keeping a home." The household was a major business. In fact, the vast majority of MEN also worked at "home." Titus 2 is an admonition to women to be industrious contributors to the family, not warm-and-fuzzy refuge-makers. The money-making business of women (and most men, BTW) was centered around the home. Women who shirked these tasks lurked in doorways and at the well to gossip with friends and flirt with men--and THAT'S what Titus 2 is concerned with. A wealthy woman of the past would NOT have cooked food for her husband with her own hands except as a special occasion. She did not clean her own house. She often enough wasn't the primary person responsible for her own children's upbringing! Instead, she was the manager and supervisor of a small industry centered around (typically) spinning and weaving, real estate, possibly some workshops, and farming.

 

Did you know that a common grounds for divorce in the Ancient Near East was that a woman was not upholding her ECONOMIC contribution by not running her household as an efficient unit of production? Any excellent housekeeper defined in Victorian terms would have been a TERRIBLE ancient wife. Her husband would have been very bitter against her as an economic parasite rather than a contributor. And, yes, he'd have had grounds for divorce!

 

Times change. But you shouldn't get confused by those changing times by applying standards that would have been simply bizarre to the people to whom something was originally addressed.

 

Scrubbing floors can be an act of love. I'd rather show my love by actually, say, playing with my kids, though.

 

Well, I think you have some serious confusion about what I said:).

 

Just because I said homemaking, being a keeper at home, is vital to society does not mean that I believe mom has to be the only one who contributes to that cause. I don't scrub my floors - my 19yo son does. I have six surgical screws in my back that prohibit me from doing any kind of scrubbing. If we could afford it I would hire a maid.

 

My point is that homemaking (which includes contributing financially - either by bringing in income or managing the existing finances so well that there is plenty) is a woman's first priority, no matter how much she decides to delegate to others. The Proverbs 31 woman is an excellent example of a keeper at home. Her home was her top priority. By home I do NOT mean her house - although that was certainly part of it. I am referring to the atmosphere of the home which is affected by its being clean, orderly, financially sound, etc. as well as "warm and fuzzy."

[Reya]

I don't have a problem with hiring out tasks. I would hire someone to scrub my tubs in a heartbeat, as you say. It's not so much who does what task. It is who manages it all - who is ultimately responsible to overseeing that every task gets done. That makes me think of the housekeeper in a large manor house, for instance, and how she was in charge of all the staff and made sure everything got done.

 

I'm only saying that this running of the household - no matter who is the actual person or machine who/that performs each task - is something that needs doing and that it needs to be a priority for the sake of the family. There are always exceptions to every rule. Circumstances effect us all in different ways.

 

THIS I would agree with! I'd also keep in mind what the entire "running of a household" meant and means, and I would not restrict it to the (bizarre and quite new industrial/post-industrial) idea that "home" and "economic endeavors" are different spheres.

 

Every time someone talks about home as a "refuge" is going straight to Victorian ideals. These words have no place in a discussion of Biblical intent. A "refuge" might be nice, but it is completely unbliblical as the idea of a place where no public or economic endeavors take place. The Biblical ideal is a place of great orderliness but also productive industry.

 

I don't believe 99% of those who say "Well, who knows what my DD might need in the future, so I need to teach her to bake bread and sew clothes!" really mean it. If they truly believed that such an economic collapse were likely enough to hedge against,t hey would be raising heritage lines of wheat in their back yards, which their sons would plant and reap, and would have their own mills, raise all their own food, learn blacksmithing, etc. If something happens that is SO drastic that it becomes once again cheaper to make clothes than to buy them and that baking break would REALLY save money, THAT is the level of economic disruption that would have to occur. (Mending is another story, of course. But still...) The real motivation is nostalgia, plain and simple. If you like it, fine, share it as a hobby. But it is a HOBBY. Really. There is no other justification for it--not even the collapse of the world's economic structures.

[Tracey in TX]

I consider myself a "stay at home mom" and "educator", not a homemaker. I despise the term b/c it demeans all that goes into 'making a house into a home'.

I would prefer to hire help for menial tasks and I take care of the loving and essential elements of our children and home.

[3lilreds in NC]

I have a rule about buying things. :-) First, I imagine where they would go and what I'd have to do to maintain them. Then, I think of what practical purpose they'd serve. I have very, very few decorative items, and almost all were inherited!

 

I go through EVERYTHING in the house at least yearly and prune, too. I have a basket that lives in the hall closet for donations and another in the study on a bookcase for items to be eBayed. When they get full, I eBay or donate. I looked at FlyLady once, but if I went through a drawer and threw away 10 things, they'd all be things I need and use! I don't let clutter build up. It helps immensely because I can FIND everything that I want to. I can put my hand on just about anything in my house within 5 minutes of needing it. That's GREAT.

 

And...I hire someone for heavy cleaning once every other week. :-) I have to get everything to the point where scrubbing can easily take place, but it saves me from messing with chemicals while pregnant. I want to get a couple more books out there this time and move up to more regular housekeeping service, but we'll see.

 

Right now, the kitchen is my ongoing nightmare, but since there is 3' of usable counter space total and NO DRAWERS, I'm working with what I've got while I've got it.

 

See, I've learned to be a lot more careful because the clutter is driving me mad. That, and dh put me on a cash only monthly budget so it's much easier to resist the temptation to buy "stuff." ;)

 

I don't go through things yearly; mostly I muddle around in my house, not really seeing the mess until someone wants to come over. I totally identify with the FlyLady CHAOS - Cant Have Anyone Over Syndrome - and am mystified by the organized, clutter-free homes I've been in. I *know* there is something wrong with me. And yet, I don't seem to be able to fix it by myself.

[Reya]

Well, I think you have some serious confusion about what I said:).

 

Just because I said homemaking, being a keeper at home, is vital to society does not mean that I believe mom has to be the only one who contributes to that cause. I don't scrub my floors - my 19yo son does. I have six surgical screws in my back that prohibit me from doing any kind of scrubbing. If we could afford it I would hire a maid.

 

My point is that homemaking (which includes contributing financially - either by bringing in income or managing the existing finances so well that there is plenty) is a woman's first priority, no matter how much she decides to delegate to others. The Proverbs 31 woman is an excellent example of a keeper at home. Her home was her top priority. By home I do NOT mean her house - although that was certainly part of it. I am referring to the atmosphere of the home which is affected by its being clean, orderly, financially sound, etc. as well as "warm and fuzzy."

 

Her HOUSEHOLD was. But that's different from "home" in the narrow, modern sense. I think my biggest beef is that people confound an ancient idea of household with today's idea of "home." As a real estate wheeler and dealer, she was hardly confined to the walls that made up her and her husband's house, for example. And you better believe that Lydia didn't have the dye vats anywhere near her house--they reeked! *g* There are actually far more admonitions to men than there are to women in the context of household. And that's something I'll wholeheartedly get behind--for both genders.

[Reya]

See, I've learned to be a lot more careful because the clutter is driving me mad. That, and dh put me on a cash only monthly budget so it's much easier to resist the temptation to buy "stuff." ;)

 

I don't go through things yearly; mostly I muddle around in my house, not really seeing the mess until someone wants to come over. I totally identify with the FlyLady CHAOS - Cant Have Anyone Over Syndrome - and am mystified by the organized, clutter-free homes I've been in. I *know* there is something wrong with me. And yet, I don't seem to be able to fix it by myself.

 

Um. I helped declutter my neighbor's house. It may be an illness. ;-) *g* I can let my house get pretty filthy in the space of a week or two, but I HAVE to get it clean between. And I loathe clutter!

 

I set the budget, though, with DH's approval. I do almost all the shopping, so it makes sense. We just sold our other house (thank goodness!), and I splurged by buying DH a flat screen TV and a sound system not inherited from my relatives! It was a belated B-day present.

[Reya]

When I say "I want better for my daughters" what I mean is a work ethic that is based on serving God in whatever they do. I don't want them to be lazy. And I do want them to have a servants heart - to be willing to do those things that aren't "fun" or "glamorous".

 

And I have no problem with college for them if that is what God calls them to. :)

 

A lot of things in the professional world aren't "fun" or "glamorous," either. There's no special moral quality to taking care of a home versus doing filing at work. Both need to be done by someone, and if you're the one to do it, both should be done without resentment or a bad temper.

[HRAAB]

A lot of what is in the part that says it is my quote I did not write. I think there are some quotes within quotes there - just for the record.

 

Anyway, I began addressing your comment and then went on to address some other comments without making that clear. Sorry about that.

 

I don't have a problem with hiring out tasks. I would hire someone to scrub my tubs in a heartbeat, as you say. It's not so much who does what task. It is who manages it all - who is ultimately responsible to overseeing that every task gets done. That makes me think of the housekeeper in a large manor house, for instance, and how she was in charge of all the staff and made sure everything got done.

 

I'm only saying that this running of the household - no matter who is the actual person or machine who/that performs each task - is something that needs doing and that it needs to be a priority for the sake of the family. There are always exceptions to every rule. Circumstances effect us all in different ways.

 

I'm sorry about my response ending up inside what I quoted from your message. I'm technically challeneged and can't figure out the multi quote button.

 

Anyway, I agree with your last paragraph. The household needs to be managed, and it needs to be a priority. It's just that dang kitchen floor that keeps getting missed.:001_huh:

 

Janet

[Tami]

Jumping back in really quick here.

 

Training our daughters to be keepers at home is not about scrubbing floors. It is about keeping her heart and a majority of energy at HOME, not primarily at a job, during the childbearing years. So many moms are missing in action from the home today. Keepers at home save a majority of their time and energy for their husbands and children. The home atmosphere and needs come FIRST. Yes, others can vacuum or scrub a shower, but nobody can be your hunny's Wife and your babies' Mama. I will encourage my daughter to get a college education, but also encourage her to have her heart at home while her children are there and need her. Everything has a season, and most of us just can't DO IT ALL.

 

When the kids are grown, some Keepers find the energy an inclination to work full time or part time. Others enjoy being a queen of their home and doing volunteer work, hospitality ministries, teaching, etc.

 

If your heart is at home, and you are busy living your heart, you are a keeper at home. This will look different in each home, because God has made us all differently. Some moms are busier playing games with their children, others delight in preparing gourmet meals. One mother may love nature walks with her kiddos, and another sewing doll clothes. Some mothers may love giving her family the gift of a beautifully decorated, spotless home. The point here is that the primary commitment of time and energy is toward the family, not an outside career. It's not a One Size Fits All deal, and it's not about scrubbing toilets. :D

[Kathleen in VA]

See, I've learned to be a lot more careful because the clutter is driving me mad. That, and dh put me on a cash only monthly budget so it's much easier to resist the temptation to buy "stuff." ;)

 

I don't go through things yearly; mostly I muddle around in my house, not really seeing the mess until someone wants to come over. I totally identify with the FlyLady CHAOS - Cant Have Anyone Over Syndrome - and am mystified by the organized, clutter-free homes I've been in. I *know* there is something wrong with me. And yet, I don't seem to be able to fix it by myself.

 

Me, too, Beth. I am overrun with clutter and most of it fell in my lap. My mom and both grandmas died within about 2 years of each other. I inherited all of there stuff as I was the only relative within 1000 miles. I threw a whole lot of it away (the boxes marked "pieces of string too short to save"), gave a lot of it away and still have more than I can really use. I feel guilty about getting rid of it because I feel like I should hang on to some of it to pass on to my children when they have families of their own. They probably won't want it:). At the time all this was happening I was on bedrest with my fourth child, injured my back, had back surgery, then another and was completely swallowed by my house and its clutter - I even had two refrigerators in my kitchen at one time!!)

 

Then, we are the "poor" family in our church. Not the poorest, actually, but definitely in the bottom five percent. We are not poor mind you, just relatively speaking. My dh is blue collar and we live in a community of white collar government workers and nuclear scientists and such. This seems to make us the obvious choice for all hand me down bags and other items that might otherwise have ended up at Goodwill. I'm not complaining really as there is usually something very useful and often needed in these donations. It is just that I am often overwhelmed by the sorting and decision-making involved.

 

We live in a 1000sf house (4 adults - me, dh, and two older dss, and 3 children 9-15) There is no basement. We need a bigger house but the market has dried up and we'd have to move two hours into the boonies to find anything we could afford. The increase in gas would make that kind of moot.

 

We don't buy our kids Christmas presents but somehow between all the relatives they still get inundated. For birthdays we try to buy things that are consumable or for the outside.

 

Somehow, it still keeps piling up. DVDs, CDs, books, junk mail, clothes, dss stuff, etc. And all I can do is try to think of what the ding-dong I am going to make for dinner.

 

I come to these boards to escape - not the brightest thing to do, but sometimes I do find a good idea or two or three.

[anewday]

A lot of things in the professional world aren't "fun" or "glamorous," either. There's no special moral quality to taking care of a home versus doing filing at work. Both need to be done by someone, and if you're the one to do it, both should be done without resentment or a bad temper.

 

 

I don't disagree with that. Again, I'm speaking to the self sacrificial service that home keeping involves, not that one job is more worthy than another.

[Kathleen in VA]

I'm sorry about my response ending up inside what I quoted from your message. I'm technically challeneged and can't figure out the multi quote button.

 

Anyway, I agree with your last paragraph. The household needs to be managed, and it needs to be a priority. It's just that dang kitchen floor that keeps getting missed.:001_huh:

 

Janet

 

I, too, cannot figure out that multi-quote thingy. No problem - just wanted to clarify for other readers.

 

Also, I did not mean to suggest that you were not a Christian - just that for anyone reading this thread, if they are not a Christian, it wouldn't be useful to try to quote scripture as a defense of my position. Clear as mud? (Again, I had gone on to other things and had failed to point that out.) I was just trying to say that my comments were and are directed to Christians as I am using scripture to back up my "argument."

[LisaKinVA]

I've read a lot of interesting replies here -- some very inspirational.

 

I have to admit, my opinions of the "keeper at home" movement have been formed by a limited number of people I've met, who actually said things to me about an education for their girls not being important, since they were learning to be "keepers at home." They were being prepared to care for children and husband.

 

Some of it is a resentment I had of their being "girl jobs" -- although I had to learn to do the "boy jobs" too (just not vice-versa). Cleaning the bathroom after three very messy boys, being responsible for picking up their dirty underwear, scrub the nasty dishes they squirrelled away under their beds made me feel like their slave rather than their sister.

 

I do like the attitude, expressed by many here, though, which encourages daughters to seek God's plan for their lives... which don't de-value an education, but places wife and motherhood on equal footing (and potentially greater long-term value) than sole-focus on a career.

 

My 6yo daughter wants to grow up to be a mom... I want to encourage that attitude, and we talk about what that means a lot.

 

My daughter is also a wholly different personality than I am -- she is much more hands-on, and I am more like a cat... ;)

 

Thank you for giving me some additional perspectives -- and the knowledge that not "everyone" who talks about training girls to be "keepers at home" is what I have heard and witnessed from the few people I've met expressing that mindset.

[3lilreds in NC]

Me, too, Beth. I am overrun with clutter and most of it fell in my lap. My mom and both grandmas died within about 2 years of each other. I inherited all of there stuff as I was the only relative within 1000 miles. I threw a whole lot of it away (the boxes marked "pieces of string too short to save"), gave a lot of it away and still have more than I can really use. I feel guilty about getting rid of it because I feel like I should hang on to some of it to pass on to my children when they have families of their own. They probably won't want it:). At the time all this was happening I was on bedrest with my fourth child, injured my back, had back surgery, then another and was completely swallowed by my house and its clutter - I even had two refrigerators in my kitchen at one time!!)

 

Then, we are the "poor" family in our church. Not the poorest, actually, but definitely in the bottom five percent. We are not poor mind you, just relatively speaking. My dh is blue collar and we live in a community of white collar government workers and nuclear scientists and such. This seems to make us the obvious choice for all hand me down bags and other items that might otherwise have ended up at Goodwill. I'm not complaining really as there is usually something very useful and often needed in these donations. It is just that I am often overwhelmed by the sorting and decision-making involved.

 

We live in a 1000sf house (4 adults - me, dh, and two older dss, and 3 children 9-15) There is no basement. We need a bigger house but the market has dried up and we'd have to move two hours into the boonies to find anything we could afford. The increase in gas would make that kind of moot.

 

We don't buy our kids Christmas presents but somehow between all the relatives they still get inundated. For birthdays we try to buy things that are consumable or for the outside.

 

Somehow, it still keeps piling up. DVDs, CDs, books, junk mail, clothes, dss stuff, etc. And all I can do is try to think of what the ding-dong I am going to make for dinner.

 

I come to these boards to escape - not the brightest thing to do, but sometimes I do find a good idea or two or three.

 

Oh, my goodness - let's not even THINK about what will happen when my inlaws decide to downsize in a few years (thank you, God, that the economy in Michigan is such that they cannot sell their house right now. I'm sorry to all you Michiganders for what you're going through.) - they have more cr@p than anyone I've ever met. They have kept so much stuff from their grandparents, their parents...... all of it super special family heirloom stuff, you know, so we will pretty much have to take it and figure out where on earth we will keep it. We already got our share when dh's grandmother passed away before the girls were born.

 

They've already told me about all the stuff they've kept of dh's in case a boy was born - Legos, big Tonka trucks, clothing (lederhosen - oi). This is on top of the stuff they've already dumped on my of dh's that he doesn't seem willing to part with. It's just wrong.

 

I had two or three friends who handed down a TON of baby boy stuff for the Snort. I am so grateful, but you would not believe how many pairs of shoes I have for one tiny boy! And sadly he outgrew most of the clothing before he could wear it. That's another big pile o' stuff.

 

Add that to my own personal clutter issues and you have one big MESS. I come here to escape too and I often find good ideas! At least I can usually scam a dinner idea or two. :D

 

Now I know that I need to get a grip. I have an 1800sf house, and only 5 of us live here. Still no basement (what is wrong with the south, anyway, that there are no basements?) but we do have an attic for some stuff. It's just that I'm overrun in the space we have, which should be PLENTY.

 

OK - my girls are supposed to be cleaning their room and I should probably go help them, in the name of reducing the household mess. Gosh it feels good to talk about this with someone who understands. Thanks Kathleen!

[Kathleen in VA]

 

They've already told me about all the stuff they've kept of dh's in case a boy was born - Legos, big Tonka trucks, clothing (lederhosen - oi).

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

Glad to be of service;).

[Reya]

Training our daughters to be keepers at home is not about scrubbing floors. It is about keeping her heart and a majority of energy at HOME, not primarily at a job, during the childbearing years. So many moms are missing in action from the home today. Keepers at home save a majority of their time and energy for their husbands and children. The home atmosphere and needs come FIRST. Yes, others can vacuum or scrub a shower, but nobody can be your hunny's Wife and your babies' Mama. I will encourage my daughter to get a college education, but also encourage her to have her heart at home while her children are there and need her. Everything has a season, and most of us just can't DO IT ALL.

 

 

This is a middle class Victorian ideal (with the division of "home" and "job" that would have baffled any ancient person), not really a Biblical one. If those are the values you want to pass on, okay, but don't claim Biblical authority for them!

 

I only agree to some extent--to the extent that a man is also a father and husband and should be more oriented toward his family than his work, as well. Nobody else can be your children's father or your husband, either. That kind of making of a family isn't a special burden on women alone.

[Reya]

I don't disagree with that. Again, I'm speaking to the self sacrificial service that home keeping involves, not that one job is more worthy than another.

 

But I'm saying there's nothing unique or special about home keeping. You're putting it on a pedestal where it really doesn't deserve to be. If some aspect of home-keeping "sacrificial," you should make sure your sacrifice is needed, not that you're doing it just for the sake of sacrificing.

 

Way too many mothers work themselves to the bone doing things FOR others that others would, as often as not, rather that they not do. (My MIL, who is not Christian, is a PRIME example of this. Christian women just couch it in pious words.) It makes them feel good, but it's often at best neutral and often enough a negative in the family dynamic.

 

My aunt is another example of this. Very sweet woman. Very giving. But she does things FOR people and not WITH them, and she chooses the FOR from her own desires, not from the real needs and wants of those she intends to "serve." She's going to be so confused and hurt when she discovers that none of her kids valued what she did for them.

 

It's only a true "home-making" activity to spend hours sewing baby doll clothes if baby doll clothes are actually REALLY appreciated. Ditto for gourmet meals--if you spend hours in the kitchen every day and DH and the kids would just as soon have 5-minute meals, you're doing it for you. If that floats your boat, okay. But always keep aware of what really matters to the family and what just makes you feel good. And if you're one of those women who only feels good when she's making herself miserable through sacrifices--ayiyi! Find something ELSE to do, because it will only be a source of friction in your family as you try to push "sacrifices" onto other people that no one but you wants done in the first place!

[paula j]

I so agree with you, it didn't come easily for me either. My mother worked full time, when I got home from school around 4 pm I got to see her for about a half hour before she went to work and then she was gone till midnight. Our home was always spotless but I was never involved in the process. My mom had me at 42 and my brothers and sister were already married with dc of their own so my job was just to entertain myself. When I got married I thought I was being a good wife because I made toast for breakfast.:001_huh: I was quickly informed differently as dh's dm always made him a big breakfast of eggs, bacon or sausage, and biscuits and gravy.

 

As someone who struggles to figure out the homemaking thing, even after 13 years, I envy you that it comes easily.

 

The reason that things like FlyLady exist is that there are those of us for whom being neat and organized does not come naturally. My mom is a fabulous woman, but fabulous housekeeper, she is not.

 

My problem is not a lack of ability or willingness (OK, the thought of cleaning floors doesn't flip my skirt, but I can do it well). It's the clutter that I don't seem to be able to get a handle on. Therefore, cleaning anything takes a LOT longer because I have to pick up and deal with so much stuff first.

 

I'm working on it. I'd like to think I'm getting better. But it does not come easily to me.

[Jami]

I can't say that I have anything particular to add to the discussion. I agree with much of what Reya has said, though I think an argument can be made for the effort to get away from commercial consumption of some products and the return to hand-crafted or small industry items. Reconnecting economics and the marketplace to the home, I guess. So not a return to a Victorian ideal which still promotes a private/public separation of spheres: male/female, business/home, world/spirit, public/private, but a pre-industrial model of the family working as a unit to meet their economic needs.

 

Nancy Pearcy has a great discussion of the development of these separate spheres and re-integrating the family as economic unit in Total Truth for those interested in these topics.

[Call Me Cordelia]

*Hanging head and slinking away, too ashamed to read the thread....* It's not rocket science. But I'm still not great at it.

[anewday]

But I'm saying there's nothing unique or special about home keeping. You're putting it on a pedestal where it really doesn't deserve to be. If some aspect of home-keeping "sacrificial," you should make sure your sacrifice is needed, not that you're doing it just for the sake of sacrificing.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm far from trying to be a "perfect" homemaker (whatever that is). I don't inflict goals upon myself to be some type of "home keeping martyr". :lol: For ME, I struggle with selfishness and I'm in a role that continually challenges me to die to that sin. By it's very nature, home keeping IS a giving and self sacrificing job. My husband's job is not like that, but that doesn't mean I feel my job is "better" than his! Or vice versa! God just has us in different roles that serve different purposes, each just as important as the other.

 

It's 3:30pm. I'm tired. :D So I'll sum up.

 

I believe God calls most wives and mothers to home keeping. It's a biblical norm IMO.

 

Because of this, home keeping is to be valued, as it is valued by God Himself.

 

I don't sew doilies or make fancy meals or churn my own butter or hatch my own chickens (though I have no problem with those who choose to) and it is far from my goal in life to sacrifice for the sake of sacrificing. I'm much too selfish for that. My goal IS however, to see God work in me so that I will have a servant like heart and be other centered in the work He has given me to do.

 

I want my daughters to grow up, marry, have children and be keepers at home. If that means I'm putting a keeper at home on a pedestal, I will gladly accept that charge. ;) However, if this is not the plan He has for them, I want them to follow Him in WHATEVER capacity He calls them to. Ultimately and most importantly, I want to see my girls following the Lord.

[Kathleen in VA]

I can't say that I have anything particular to add to the discussion. I agree with much of what Reya has said, though I think an argument can be made for the effort to get away from commercial consumption of some products and the return to hand-crafted or small industry items. Reconnecting economics and the marketplace to the home, I guess. So not a return to a Victorian ideal which still promotes a private/public separation of spheres: male/female, business/home, world/spirit, public/private, but a pre-industrial model of the family working as a unit to meet their economic needs.

 

Nancy Pearcy has a great discussion of the development of these separate spheres and re-integrating the family as economic unit in Total Truth for those interested in these topics.

 

I LOVE Total Truth by Nancy Pearcey. I actually met her one evening at an AWANA meeting - we were both waiting for our children to finish up. She is very dear.

 

I am so glad you pointed this out as I haven't read the book in a while and I had not made the connection about the Victorians separating the two spheres - mainly world/spirit - which led to all the other separations. I will definitely need to search this out more and see if I have been missing something and have not been interpreting my Bible correctly. It is so easy to just slog along and not really search it out for one's self.

 

I can see how the biblical family - mom, dad, and children - would all need to be more home-centered since society was mainly agrarian then.

 

I do think this also has somewhat to do with the verse(s) in Genesis that say woman was made to be a helpmeet for the man, though - not just the Titus 2 passage. I'm off to my Bible.

 

Thanks for the mind-stretching!

[anewday]

IBy it's very nature, home keeping IS a giving and self sacrificing job.

 

To expand on this, when I think of "home keeping" I am not merely thinking of "keeping the home clean". It is far more than that to me - it encompases that, but also wise planning, management, stewardship, creating an atmosphere of comfort and acceptance, family life, love, service to Go etc. THAT is why it is challenging.

[Jami]

I LOVE Total Truth by Nancy Pearcey. I actually met her one evening at an AWANA meeting - we were both waiting for our children to finish up. She is very dear.

 

I am so glad you pointed this out as I haven't read the book in a while and I had not made the connection about the Victorians separating the two spheres - mainly world/spirit - which led to all the other separations. I will definitely need to search this out more and see if I have been missing something and have not been interpreting my Bible correctly. It is so easy to just slog along and not really search it out for one's self.

 

I can see how the biblical family - mom, dad, and children - would all need to be more home-centered since society was mainly agrarian then.

 

I do think this also has somewhat to do with the verse(s) in Genesis that say woman was made to be a helpmeet for the man, though - not just the Titus 2 passage. I'm off to my Bible.

 

Thanks for the mind-stretching!

 

How neat to have met Nancy P! I heard her speak at a conference on women and society a few years ago, pre-children. And was really challenged and stretched by what she had to say, though I'm sure I've forgotten much of it. I'm not sure what re-integration would look like in most 21st century Christian homes...we tried having dh work from home for a season and it was really hard on his personality, he needs the creative energy that comes with working from others.

 

Jami

[Another Lynn]

I could not disagree more. Almost everyone I know struggles with maintaining their home, especially those who were college educated as they come out with the attitude you just mentioned, housework is menial, beneath them. They have a college degree, they should be out doing something great, not cleaning toilets and endlessly picking up after kids.

 

This is something that I would love to conquer. When I see some of you on here with organized, clean homes I get so jealous. I would love to be a great homemaker but I wasn't raised that way and the years I spent in college really don't help foster an attitude of selfless service to family.

 

 

:iagree:

 

I didn't read all the responses (yet), but this one describes me too! I don't think that it necessarily has to be an either/or proposition... but I definitely think there's more to it than a physical list of tasks and knowing how to complete them. It is heart work! I'm still not there yet! But I need to hurry because my dd won't be in any better shape if I don't become more servant hearted as an example! If homemaking skills and servant heartedness are the priority than college really is a separate issue in my book (right for some, but not all).

[Jami]

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/arn/pearcey/np_familyinamerica.htm

 

Since I mentioned Nancy Pearcey and the pre-industrial model of the integrated home, here are a couple of articles on those topics.

 

Jami

[Jugglin'5]

I find science, Greek, and other academic pursuits MUCH easier than homemaking!!! It is a blessing that it is natural to you. Many of us are challenged in the homemaking dept. :blink:

 

 

:iagree:That is me to a T! The fact is, it does make my husband feel loved when I put down the books for a while, bake him some homemade bread, make sure he has a matching pair of socks, and iron his shirt :). I think Edith Schaeffer's "The Hidden Art of Homemaking" has a lot to offer. I don't bake fresh bread all the time, but there is a reason that real estate agents put that smell or a cinnamon smell in a house they are showing. It smells "homey"! It is not all about saving money, though that helps. I find Reya's approach to be very utilitarian, yet I am not a "prairie muffin", Victorian romantic.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

*Hanging head and slinking away, too ashamed to read the thread....* It's not rocket science. But I'm still not great at it.

 

Me, too. I'm completely ashamed and mortified and frankly very puzzled that I can't get a full handle on it. I'm not completely without intelligence. I can do all the individual components of the job. But all together? Even once a week? Not even close. It boggles my mind to think that people can so very casually say, "That's so simple. What's the problem?" I think it's very cool that they can, but I also think brain surgery is pretty cool. I'm pretty sure I couldn't do that, either.

 

I remember when I first (finally) learned how to get a WHOLE MEAL on the table at one time -- you know, all the food done and warm/hot/ready at the same time, table set, drinks poured, all the burners off. It was an amazing thing. I can do this without thinking very hard about it now, and feel it's pretty silly that I couldn't do it "automatically," but it wasn't easy for me to figure it out.