Singapore is Causing Tears

[taffnus]

OK....we're in SM 3 and have used only that since SMEB. DD8 is very bright but also very lazy. She doesn't like to think unless she wants to. When she WANTS to do math, she finds it quite easy. The problem is, she wants to do math increasingly rarely. She's very quick, visual and doesn't like or need lots of repetition. To me, it seems like SM should be a decent fit. When we get to the workbook, she complains and throws herself around and then her brain completely shuts off making it next to impossible to get her to do her work. If I'm right next to her, reading the problem, walking her through step-by-step, she will usually follow along (while complaining). As soon as I ask her to do it herself, you'd think I was asking her to read Chinese while poking her eyes out (yes, it's pretty intense).

 

I don't know my next step. Should I just drudge through this? I know she's capable. Should I try another program? I loathe to do this. Should I stop and do something like Math Mammoth for a couple months and then come back to this?

 

Does anyone have any wisdom for me? :confused:

[MusicMama]

I don't have experience teaching math at this age, but have found that the parents of my piano students underestimate the age that a student can become self sufficient. Around 8, the parents tend to want the child to be able to self mange, and practice all by themselves. Very few 8 yo's can do this, and need a parent close by to encourage and direct practice. When the student is left to themselves, progress comes to a screaming halt and all (parent, teacher, student) become very frustrated. I would suggest that you continue to sit beside her, and wean her off of your help slowly. Leave for brief intervals to change laundry, check on dinner, etc, then s-l-o-w-l-y lengthen the interval over the course of a year. Of course, introducing a new topic will increase her need for you, and easier ones she will be able to self manage. It just sounds like she needs you more than you want/are able to give right now. Maybe there is another math program that is less teacher intensive, bu I would be wary of a math program that is completely self directed at that age. My .02 :)

[EKS]

Things that have worked here:

 

Using a small whiteboard for all practice problems

Just doing the textbook problems

Using a timer and when it goes off, math is over for the day

A good attitude about math is required for screen time later in the day

[eewaggie99]

Everyone has given you great answers above. It doesn't sound likes it's an issue with the curriculum. My ds9 has just started doing his workbook problems independently; we still go through the textbook problems together. Even then, I have to keep him in eye sight or his attention will wander. He also requires frequent prompting to get the independent work done. I'd encourage you to try assigning half the problems. It gives your child an incentive to complete the work correctly. If my ds sees a page full of problems, he tends to zone out, considering the amount of work insurmountable. Sometimes, it can take a bit of coaxing to get him down off his math ledge; reducing the problems and requiring 100% accuracy makes the task easier for him.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I don't have experience teaching math at this age, but have found that the parents of my piano students underestimate the age that a student can become self sufficient. Around 8, the parents tend to want the child to be able to self mange, and practice all by themselves. Very few 8 yo's can do this, and need a parent close by to encourage and direct practice. When the student is left to themselves, progress comes to a screaming halt and all (parent, teacher, student) become very frustrated. I would suggest that you continue to sit beside her, and wean her off of your help slowly. Leave for brief intervals to change laundry, check on dinner, etc, then s-l-o-w-l-y lengthen the interval over the course of a year. Of course, introducing a new topic will increase her need for you, and easier ones she will be able to self manage. It just sounds like she needs you more than you want/are able to give right now. Maybe there is another math program that is less teacher intensive, bu I would be wary of a math program that is completely self directed at that age. My .02 :)

 

:iagree:

 

Try offering half (or even less) of the practice problems. If she gets them right she doesn't have to do the other half (it's ok to tell her that). If she gets any wrong have her do the rest the next day.

 

That is what I did and I found out my son didn't need the repetition. Things went more smoothly after that.

 

If that doesn't work then I'd assume that maybe she is not understanding things and you might have to back up a bit.

 

:iagree:

 

DS8 used to be the same way.

 

DD8 is very bright but also very lazy. She doesn't like to think unless she wants to. When she WANTS to do math, she finds it quite easy. The problem is, she wants to do math increasingly rarely. She's very quick, visual and doesn't like or need lots of repetition.

 

Your DD sounds a lot like my DS and what looked lazy was actually boredom because the material was not interesting enough. Not only did he not need the repetition (he despises repetition), he actually performed better when I gave him more challenging problems. Now he mostly does the IP and CWP. At the end of every unit, I just give him the review from the WB.

 

I still have to sit with him though. :lol:

[kristinannie]

I had a similar problem. My son was crying every time I took out MCP phonics. I got him ETC instead and still tears. I got First Start Reading and he likes it (but it is mostly handwriting for him since he knows CVC words). A couple of weeks later, he was asking to do MCP phonics again and now he loves it. Maybe you could give her a couple of weeks off from math and see how that goes. It doesn't seem like it is a bad fit for you so I wouldn't switch. It could be a character issue. She could also just need more handholding in math.

[Candid]

What if you sit by her but don't help?

 

And consider giving her a time limit with a reward if she finishes early.

 

Some of this is the age and depending on the child it will go on for a while.

 

My youngest is 12 and working in NEM 1 the first middles school book in Singapore math. He was cruising along learning to multiply something on the outside of an expression into the expression, handling 4x(2 + 3y) or 5(2 + 3y), but when they slipped in fractions, 1/4(2 + 3y), at the end of a problem set, you'd have thought he'd been asked to walk to China, peeling off the ceiling time. Why? Why? Why? :glare::001_huh::rolleyes::banghead:

 

Wish I knew why, but I can say I do have vague memories of his older brother doing the same thing. Now, he's self teaching their Additional Math program. So they do eventually stop.

[taffnus]

Thank you all so much. I don't mind giving her the time one-on-one. She's my oldest so gets more time than my youngest. I feel like I do half of a problem, taking it to the point I KNOW she can then finish. I don't leave the table. I try to stay composed and speak encouraging words. She still wants more.

 

Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm not teaching her in a way she enjoys but I get tired of having to make things interesting. :001_unsure: Can't we just get it done so I can go do laundry??? :001_smile: I have really been feeling lately that she's just wasting my time. That gets so tiring after a while. I know she can do it.

 

She's always struggled with frustration and perfectionism and that fuels this. If she doesn't feel like something is going to be easy or that she may have to work at something, she doesn't even want to try and she makes us all miserable as I try to coerce her, convince her and/or force her. I could tell her I'd give her a handful of candy if she completes it and she'd do it without a problem but I can't make a habit of that. ARGHHH!!!! I know she can do this but I'm getting really tired of fighting her and I hate the fact that she's modelling this to my 5yo (who, mind you, LOVES school and is compliant with her work). :001_smile:

[Tracy]

Maybe you can take some time off of Singapore and do something that you can get for free online (e.g., MEP or CSMP) and then go back to Singapore later.

[Halcyon]

Here's my suggestion:

 

You say that she moans and groans if she has to "work" at a problem, yet your feeling is that she is capable of doing the work (we have to assume you're right, since we don't know your daughter). Why not tell her this--give her a few "harder" problems and tell her "if you can solve these on your own, without my help, you'll be done for the day. If you get more than one wrong, I am going to give you double the number of easier problems." Something like that might work. For example, you can have her do 5 challenging word problems, and let's say she gets 4 out of 5 right. That gives her a "pass" for math for the day. If she gets only 2 right, or moans and says she needs your help, then one of two things is at work: 1) she simply wants to complain and doesn't want to apply herself, so she can just do extra math so she understands that complaining doesn't mean she gets to do LESS 2) she really CAN'T do the problems, so doing a bunch of "easier" problems will benefit her either way.

 

Good luck.

[StephanieZ]

*This* is exactly why I loved combining Miquon with SM.

 

When my kids hit a "I don't want to" moment in SM, I just had them do Miquon until it passed. Sometimes it took a day, sometimes a week, but it always passes. it was so great to have a kid-led program they could go to when they didn't want to deal with mom teaching, or they didn't want to struggle on whatever particular concept was getting their goat in SM.

 

I guess it is a bit late to start Miquon, but, honestly, your dd is still young. . . I'd consider getting it, letting her fly through Miquon pages for a while.

 

The way I assigned it was "2 Miquon pages or 2 SM exercises a day or one each". It was awesome for that age b/c the kid could always chose to do Miquon if s/he felt like it. Made them fly through both programs. :)

[black_midori]

I love the teaching method out of RightStart - very painless & tear-free! :) However, I use Math Mammoth as a supplement because I feel that he needs some repetition (RS basically does none - learn it & move on) - and we have the same whiny problem! Laff. So I don't feel like switching to something similar but different would be much help with the problem - unless you went TOTALLY different like RS & didn't add a supplement. Changing the attitude is better, if possible! My 7yo CAN do the work, and when he is on a roll he does it beautifully... but when he wants to dawdle, WOW can he!

 

I think for next year I will keep RightStart and use ALEKS online for supplement, as I understand that it uses artificial intelligence to determine what areas need work and only focuses on them.

[Crimson Wife]

Have you tried using the Intensive Practice book in lieu of the regular workbook? I find that it is actually less of an issue getting my DD to finish the harder problems in IP than the easier ones in the textbook. With the textbook, I get grumbling that it's "boring" but she calls the IP book "fun math".

[Dmmetler]

I agree with the above. 3A/3B is where Singapore adds more practice problems to the text itself, to the point that the workbook becomes very redundant unless the child NEEDS a lot of practice. Add that most of the concepts are ones that were covered in 2A/2B, only at a higher level, and if you have a child who is at all mathy, it can get frustrating fast. Adding the practice in at a higher skill level makes a big difference.

[MissKNG]

Have you tried using the Intensive Practice book in lieu of the regular workbook? I find that it is actually less of an issue getting my DD to finish the harder problems in IP than the easier ones in the textbook. With the textbook, I get grumbling that it's "boring" but she calls the IP book "fun math".

 

 

:iagree::iagree: IP all the way!!!!!!!!!

[Momling]

My daughter at 8 sounded exactly like that. It didn't matter which math program we tried, my daughter just got frustrated and tearful about it.

 

What helped was consistency and an extra year. At 9, things are much more stable and my daughter isn't nearly so emotional about math. Also, for both of my kids, being absolutely consistent about math helps. We do one SM lesson (until the pencil indicating the workbook pages) together at a certain time every weekday. And then they do the workbook on their own. I don't add in extras, I don't negotiate... If it's an easy and short lesson, that's okay... If it's a long and tedious lesson that they already understand, I might skip it or combine it, but I make certain that I keep up my side of the agreement of one lesson and workbook section per day. It really helps them to know that no amount of complaining will change the fact that we do math. And it helps them to know that I won't surprise them with extra work. And so they don't complain.

 

I have tried the IP and CWP, but it got to be too much. My girls are smart kids, but they are perfectionists with a low tolerance for frustration.

[almondbutterandjelly]

Eww... we hated SM 3. Levels 1 and 2 were great. But 3, man, that was painful for both child and teacher! After dealing with the pain for a couple of months, we tried out Teaching Textbooks, and we're in LOVE! My dd is very visual, and she adores TT. Maybe check out the sample videos. Give both of you a break.

[JadeOrchidSong]

I agree with the above. 3A/3B is where Singapore adds more practice problems to the text itself, to the point that the workbook becomes very redundant unless the child NEEDS a lot of practice. Add that most of the concepts are ones that were covered in 2A/2B, only at a higher level, and if you have a child who is at all mathy, it can get frustrating fast. Adding the practice in at a higher skill level makes a big difference.

 

We do either the exercises in the textbook, or the workbook exercise, combine the two, but cut each to half. I am bored myself having ds take so long to do all of both.

[KarenNC]

This is probably not the answer you want, but I was in a very similar situation and the answer for us was to drop Singapore and go to Saxon. We also did Singapore from Earlybird-2B in US edition, went to 3A-4A in Standards. I got balking, crying, "I hate math, I'm stupid at math" types of issues, though she seemed capable of the work. She is also very visual, very quick to understand, doesn't like a lot of repetition though she kept dawdling, pitching fits, and making "careless" errors of things she could do if I went through them step by step along with her or that she had done last week. I tried IP, I tried skipping problems she seemed able to do, I tried accelerating. Things got worse.

 

Her issue wasn't boredom, it was that the material went faster than she was really ready to do, even if it didn't look like it on the surface. She actually needs more repetition over a longer period of time to help things cement, rather than less or to move more quickly, which makes the incremental approach of Saxon a good fit. I didn't want to give up Singapore because "everyone" said that "it's the only curriculum to use with a bright student." Saxon seemed like failing because "everyone" said it was "drill and kill." We tested through Saxon 6/5 to find holes where the programs varied, and are now contentedly doing Saxon 7/6 along with Life of Fred. Her retention is great, no more drama, life is good. We actually spend less time doing Saxon than we did with Singapore because we don't have the drama, even when we had cut the number of problems in Singapore down a good bit or stretched them over a couple of days.

 

YMMV

[taffnus]

I've received so much good advice. Thank you everyone!!

 

Have you tried using the Intensive Practice book in lieu of the regular workbook? With the textbook, I get grumbling that it's "boring" but she calls the IP book "fun math".

 

I haven't tried IP. Up til this year we used the tests which she loved. I took it out this year in lieu of CWP because she needs work on that. We're using SM3A and CWP2. I'll take a look at the IP samples.

 

This is probably not the answer you want, but I was in a very similar situation and the answer for us was to drop Singapore and go to Saxon.

 

This does go against the grain. When I was choosing math curricula when DD was 5, I had narrowed it down to SM and Saxon. I looked at both at our convention and I couldn't believe the size of the Saxon kindergarten IG. I picked it up, saw about 20 pages explaining the calendar, put it down and never went back. I am a VERY detail-oriented person and knew immediately that I'd be bogged down with so much detail. SM was so much more doable at the time. Now, that's been a long time ago and my perspective has changed so, I'd be willing to look at it again but...the thought of a 3" IG makes me cringe. :-)

 

 

At this point, I'm going to research some of the recommendations from this post and see where that leads me. We're on bar graphs now. I may see if I can skip this and move on in SM. If so, I'll give her a couple months and come back to bar graphs. Maybe that will help.

 

Thank you for your help!!

[KarenNC]

This does go against the grain. When I was choosing math curricula when DD was 5, I had narrowed it down to SM and Saxon. I looked at both at our convention and I couldn't believe the size of the Saxon kindergarten IG. I picked it up, saw about 20 pages explaining the calendar, put it down and never went back. I am a VERY detail-oriented person and knew immediately that I'd be bogged down with so much detail. SM was so much more doable at the time. Now, that's been a long time ago and my perspective has changed so, I'd be willing to look at it again but...the thought of a 3" IG makes me cringe. :-)

 

If you look at my post, we didn't use Saxon until last year (6/5) and I've been told that the early grades of Saxon are very different. From what I've read, the switch happens at 5/4. Having had no reason to look at them, I have no idea. For 6/5 and 7/6 we have a textbook, answer key and a test booklet---that's it. There is no instructor guide that I know of (we have the 3rd edition).

 

Our lessons now take about 10 minutes of explanation (going over the page or two in the textbook) followed by her doing the problem set independently (maybe 30-40 minutes--it's 30 problems). At present we aren't doing the practice problems unless I see a specific area of need during the lesson. After every 5 lessons there is a test and a few times a year there's an investigation instead of a lesson. Instead of the written facts practice, I'm having her do xtramath.com daily, which takes another 10 minutes or less.

[taffnus]

For 6/5 and 7/6 we have a textbook, answer key and a test booklet---that's it. There is no instructor guide that I know of (we have the 3rd edition).

.

 

That sounds very different. Thanks for clarifying. It's certainly worth a look. Thanks! I just had her do today's math online with ALEKS. She loved it. Of course, she loves change and she loves the computer so I don't know if it would be a long-term love or not. I'm still working through a long-term solution. Thanks, again.

[Mrs Twain]

What helped was consistency and an extra year. At 9, things are much more stable and my daughter isn't nearly so emotional about math. Also, for both of my kids, being absolutely consistent about math helps. We do one SM lesson (until the pencil indicating the workbook pages) together at a certain time every weekday. And then they do the workbook on their own. I don't add in extras, I don't negotiate... If it's an easy and short lesson, that's okay... If it's a long and tedious lesson that they already understand, I might skip it or combine it, but I make certain that I keep up my side of the agreement of one lesson and workbook section per day. It really helps them to know that no amount of complaining will change the fact that we do math. And it helps them to know that I won't surprise them with extra work. And so they don't complain.

 

I agree with the above. If you change programs or decrease the amount of work required just because your dd is complaining, then I think you will be setting a dangerous precedent. If the program were causing her trouble because it was a bad fit or too difficult, that would be a different story. Maybe I am old fashioned, but I think that kids need to develop some degree of self discipline, which may involve learning how to get themselves to finish the math lesson in the appropriate amount of time.

 

If I think my kids are not doing their work in a reasonable amount of time, I often tell them that they can just do it for "homework," meaning during their free time after school when they would otherwise be playing with friends, doing sports, or some other fun activity. So far that strategy has been a success.