I was wondering about "Tiger Moms"

[Mommyfaithe]

After reading here about the level of academics and after school activities in Asian culture...and also some on the suicide rate of kids who are under that pressure, I began to wonder about the parents. At what rate are they burning out, feeling like failures because their kids can not keep up....or even if the kids CAN keep up, what in their own life is suffering.

 

I am not a Tiger.....more of a kitten...lol...but, I am feeling the pull from every end. Granted, most Asian culture families only have one or two children to roar through....but they must also have jobs, family obligations, aging parents, etc. So.....just wondering what the statistics or stories are concerning the Tiger Moms themselves.

 

Faithe

[Mommyfaithe]

Ok...I see this had over 100 views and no one know....

 

How would I research this?? I mean, if the parents have this amazing sense of satisfaction and pride...then maybe I am feeling guilty for not being supermom for a reason....

My kids do stuff....bit not near to what I see portrayed in Asian cultures as shown on a video posted here a week or so ago....or by the Tiger Mom book....

 

So, anyone have any ideas or opinions?

 

Faithe

[Jean in Newcastle]

OK - having grown up in Japan, perhaps I can share some light. The mothers I knew thought education was very important and did pressure their kids. But they were not as hands-on in how they parented. Instead they followed the guidelines set by the school often to the letter even on things like how to spend summer vacation. In Japan, kids are in school for longer hours, including mandatory extracurriculars after school, have less vacation days etc. so the moms don't have direct contact with the kids as much as they do here. They spent a lot of time sending their kids to afterschool cram schools etc. but because cars are not super common due to traffic congestion, the kids tended to walk to these activities in groups (so no soccer moms like we think of them).

 

Also - I knew a lot of depressed Japanese women. They would talk about their feelings and depression with me because I was a foreigner but would then talk about how they had to hide it from every one else. A lot of these moms live vicariously through their kids so there wasn't much of a sense of their own life suffering. But many of the women with children were SAHMs living in a fairly small house (so not so much housework) so they did have some time to take a class, get together for a chat, etc.

 

This doesn't speak to everything you asked about in your post but does shed some like on Japanese moms: http://ecrp.uiuc.edu/v10n1/holloway.html

[Miss Cornelia Snook]

I'm no help at all, but it's a very intriguing question.

[sewingmama]

Well from what I saw in Korea - once the mums have a child they either stay home and give up their job or they stay at work and basically palm the child off onto the grandparents to raise.

 

The kids are in school and extra classes a lot from a very young age. The parents don't tend to drop them at things or stay to watch them - even the 5 yo's walk to school on their own - in and out of traffic. Their parents teach them as soon as they can walk how to be traffic safe. Korea is very, very safe for children (if they can avoid the heavy traffic) - strangers come running if a child cries or needs help - strangers will also feel free to discipline a child if they see it getting into trouble - so the mothers tend to let them wander from one activity to the next on their own. The older kids tend to walk straight from school to various activities and often don't see their parents till they meet up for dinner around 8-9pm.

 

They mostly live in tiny two room apartments which take minutes to clean or they have a cleaning lady come in (very cheap). They do a lot of socialising, cooking and shopping. They look after their MIL's (the girl's responsibility moves to the inlaws after she is married) and do a lot of things to please them. They are very often bored and have affairs (not seen as a big thing over there -it's quite common).

Edited October 24, 2011 by sewingmama

[ebunny]

Well from what I saw in Korea - once the mums have a child they either stay home and give up their job or they stay at work and basically palm the child off onto the grandparents to raise.

 

The kids are in school and extra classes a lot from a very young age. The parents don't tend to drop them at things or stay to watch them - even the 5 yo's walk to school on their own - in and out of traffic. Their parents teach them as soon as they can walk how to be traffic safe.

 

They mostly live in tiny two room apartments which take minutes to clean or they have a cleaning lady come in (very cheap). They do a lot of socialising, cooking and shopping. They look after their MIL's (the girl's responsibility moves to the inlaws after she is married) and do a lot of things to please them. They are very often bored and have affairs (not seen as a big thing over there -it's quite common).

Excluding the bolded part, ditto for the scenario in India. Most of Asia/SE asia share similar values and beliefs. Edited October 24, 2011 by ebunny
included quotes

[Heather in Neverland]

The Asian mothers i see every day do not work, usually have only 1 or 2 children and they LIVE for that child. Their entire identity is wrapped up in the success or failure of their child.

 

We had to expell a boy for cheating and his mother became distraught and nearly suicidal over the "shame" of it all. It is all on the mothers. The fathers work, often in other countries, and the entirety of child rearing is on the mom.

 

The social pressure in the circle of Asian moms at our school is INTENSE. You should see them standing in a circle comparing their children's report cards. It is crazy.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Reading all this makes me glad to be in the US. It sounds more balanced here.

[FaithManor]

Well, I would imagine that one can't really make any generalizations about Asian cultures because each one is going to have its own customs and traditions.

 

So, all I can add is anecdotal evidence. The LAC I graduated from had quite a few international students. I was friends with two gals, one from Japan, and one from Thailand. Both of them confided that not only did they have "tiger moms", but that they were essentially raised (ie. in the more traditional sense of being physically cared for and nurtured) by their grandmothers who lived in the home since extended families living together is the norm. Their mothers were mostly there to ride them to succeed and institute discipline when they didn't, but were otherwise completely consumed with running the home and what not. It appeared that my friends were more emotionally attached to their grandmothers than their mothers. But, the interesting thing was that both of them had a sibling who didn't turn out well according to their cultural standards. In both cases, their mothers suffered extreme emotional duress and one of them had their father walk out on her mother because his wife had "failed" in his eyes to raise the child properly. Apparently, in their culture, they do not separate the teen or adult child's individual choices from the mother. If the child does something embarassing, it is not because he/she made a poor choice, it is because he/she hadn't been disciplined enough by the mother. Well, that is the impression I got from them anyway.

 

As for dads, these girls acted like they hardly knew their fathers at all and the one that left, goodness...the girl didn't even care. Not.one.little.bit. She felt a little sorry for her mother having to get a job to support her younger sibs and grandmother. But, in her eyes, the dad was a non-influence in her life and his only reason for living and breathing was to earn money. However, I would not assume this is true across Asian cultures. It's just trivial, anecdotal information.

 

Faith

[Jean in Newcastle]

As for dads, these girls acted like they hardly knew their fathers at all and the one that left, goodness...the girl didn't even care. Not.one.little.bit. She felt a little sorry for her mother having to get a job to support her younger sibs and grandmother. But, in her eyes, the dad was a non-influence in her life and his only reason for living and breathing was to earn money. However, I would not assume this is true across Asian cultures. It's just trivial, anecdotal information.

 

 

In the Japanese homes of my friends growing up, this would have been the case. They would have seen Dad at breakfast but that might have been the only time on a school day. Dad would work late and then go out drinking with his friends from work until late. I do know some very involved Japanese dads but it wasn't the norm.

[Mommyfaithe]

OK - having grown up in Japan, perhaps I can share some light. The mothers I knew thought education was very important and did pressure their kids. But they were not as hands-on in how they parented. Instead they followed the guidelines set by the school often to the letter even on things like how to spend summer vacation. In Japan, kids are in school for longer hours, including mandatory extracurriculars after school, have less vacation days etc. so the moms don't have direct contact with the kids as much as they do here. They spent a lot of time sending their kids to afterschool cram schools etc. but because cars are not super common due to traffic congestion, the kids tended to walk to these activities in groups (so no soccer moms like we think of them).

 

Also - I knew a lot of depressed Japanese women. They would talk about their feelings and depression with me because I was a foreigner but would then talk about how they had to hide it from every one else. A lot of these moms live vicariously through their kids so there wasn't much of a sense of their own life suffering. But many of the women with children were SAHMs living in a fairly small house (so not so much housework) so they did have some time to take a class, get together for a chat, etc.

 

This doesn't speak to everything you asked about in your post but does shed some like on Japanese moms: http://ecrp.uiuc.edu/v10n1/holloway.html

 

Thanks for this insight, Jean. I am truly interested in the parent end of this Tiger Mom phenomenon. I will read the link you sent.

I can imagine the sense on pressure and depression among these moms...but from an American standpoint. I know I would be pushed to my very limit working full time and then having to make sure my kids were in a million extra curricula activities.

 

Faithe

[Mommyfaithe]

Well from what I saw in Korea - once the mums have a child they either stay home and give up their job or they stay at work and basically palm the child off onto the grandparents to raise.

 

The kids are in school and extra classes a lot from a very young age. The parents don't tend to drop them at things or stay to watch them - even the 5 yo's walk to school on their own - in and out of traffic. Their parents teach them as soon as they can walk how to be traffic safe. Korea is very, very safe for children (if they can avoid the heavy traffic) - strangers come running if a child cries or needs help - strangers will also feel free to discipline a child if they see it getting into trouble - so the mothers tend to let them wander from one activity to the next on their own. The older kids tend to walk straight from school to various activities and often don't see their parents till they meet up for dinner around 8-9pm.

 

They mostly live in tiny two room apartments which take minutes to clean or they have a cleaning lady come in (very cheap). They do a lot of socialising, cooking and shopping. They look after their MIL's (the girl's responsibility moves to the inlaws after she is married) and do a lot of things to please them. They are very often bored and have affairs (not seen as a big thing over there -it's quite common).

 

Well, that does explain a lot. So, they are not the primary entertainment committee, cleaning woman, teacher, disciplinarian, hot wife all rolled into one. Hmmmmmmmm......that is interesting. That could be the reason for so many activities too.....keep them busy until bedtime.........interesting.

[Mommyfaithe]

The Asian mothers i see every day do not work, usually have only 1 or 2 children and they LIVE for that child. Their entire identity is wrapped up in the success or failure of their child.

 

We had to expell a boy for cheating and his mother became distraught and nearly suicidal over the "shame" of it all. It is all on the mothers. The fathers work, often in other countries, and the entirety of child rearing is on the mom.

 

The social pressure in the circle of Asian moms at our school is INTENSE. You should see them standing in a circle comparing their children's report cards. It is crazy.

 

Tell me more about this. I am intrigued. I see some really intense, competitive moms around here. Seriously!! But, what you describe knocks it up a notch. I have seen homeschool moms here compare the rigor ( or adversely the unschoolishness) of their home schooled kids as if it is a contest or something....:tongue_smilie: Blech.

Faithe

[Mommyfaithe]

Well, I would imagine that one can't really make any generalizations about Asian cultures because each one is going to have its own customs and traditions.

 

So, all I can add is anecdotal evidence. The LAC I graduated from had quite a few international students. I was friends with two gals, one from Japan, and one from Thailand. Both of them confided that not only did they have "tiger moms", but that they were essentially raised (ie. in the more traditional sense of being physically cared for and nurtured) by their grandmothers who lived in the home since extended families living together is the norm. Their mothers were mostly there to ride them to succeed and institute discipline when they didn't, but were otherwise completely consumed with running the home and what not. It appeared that my friends were more emotionally attached to their grandmothers than their mothers. But, the interesting thing was that both of them had a sibling who didn't turn out well according to their cultural standards. In both cases, their mothers suffered extreme emotional duress and one of them had their father walk out on her mother because his wife had "failed" in his eyes to raise the child properly. Apparently, in their culture, they do not separate the teen or adult child's individual choices from the mother. If the child does something embarassing, it is not because he/she made a poor choice, it is because he/she hadn't been disciplined enough by the mother. Well, that is the impression I got from them anyway.

 

As for dads, these girls acted like they hardly knew their fathers at all and the one that left, goodness...the girl didn't even care. Not.one.little.bit. She felt a little sorry for her mother having to get a job to support her younger sibs and grandmother. But, in her eyes, the dad was a non-influence in her life and his only reason for living and breathing was to earn money. However, I would not assume this is true across Asian cultures. It's just trivial, anecdotal information.

 

Faith

 

Wow! I can see it though. I think American families also feel the " what did we do wrong" when an older child or adult child goes awry. Maybe not to the extreme of suicide or depression, but certainly it is there in the back of their heads....and gnaws on them, at least in my experience. I know my mother had that feeling with my brother until the day she died. It did sadden her greatly...AND she was responsible for many of his problems....oy.

 

This parenting thing is difficult no matter what culture you come from, isn't it???

Faithe

[Mommyfaithe]

In the Japanese homes of my friends growing up, this would have been the case. They would have seen Dad at breakfast but that might have been the only time on a school day. Dad would work late and then go out drinking with his friends from work until late. I do know some very involved Japanese dads but it wasn't the norm.

 

Sounds kinda familiar! My dh makes a concerted effort to be a part of our kids lives, But growing up I remember most of our dads left in the morning, came home at dinner time, then we went to bed. Not much time for relationship. I see many more dads now making the effort to spend time raising their kids...but that is really only in the last 15 years or so. When I had my older kids....I remember their friends dads were much more hands off than the dads of my little ones. My dh has become much more hands on with our last 2 kids than he was with our older ones. He now makes a great effort to be part of their lives and they are soaking it up...enjoying him...but when they were little, I was the main parent, and he was that fun guy who was here on the weekends sometimes..if he wasn't working. Sigh.

 

Faithe

[butterflymommy]

I think it has more to do with being the children of success-driven immigrants than asian culture per se. I'm sure there are plenty of slacker students in asian countries-- probably not to the degree you see here, but I doubt every asian student in every asian country is a type A perfectionist.

 

I am the child of immigrants (not asian though) who were very academically and financially driven. I had HUGE academic and career pressure put on me my whole life. My sister too. There was this constant sense of "We [my parents] grew up with nothing and look at our success, now it's your turn to have everything-- and you better do amazingly well."

 

Not to go into lurid detail, but we both cracked... we did do well academically and both graduated from ivy league colleges, but today we are both just housewives with a host of "issues." She has worked a few odd jobs for the town where she lives but no career to speak of. My sister could have been an engineer, she is brilliant. We had other issues in the home, but the pressure we were constantly under was crushing. It made us go in the opposite direction. Neither of us has many regrets but we do find it ironic that after all the indoctrination, we both veered away from career and academia.

 

I really don't want to do that to my kids, but, I do find myself relentlessly emphasizing academics and study even when I try not to. I'm too unorganized to be a tiger mom but I push them and am critical when they slack off. I still don't know if I'm doing a good or bad thing here with them...? :confused:

[Mommyfaithe]

I think it has more to do with being the children of success-driven immigrants than asian culture per se. I'm sure there are plenty of slacker students in asian countries-- probably not to the degree you see here, but I doubt every asian student in every asian country is a type A perfectionist.

 

I am the child of immigrants (not asian though) who were very academically and financially driven. I had HUGE academic and career pressure put on me my whole life. My sister too. There was this constant sense of "We [my parents] grew up with nothing and look at our success, now it's your turn to have everything-- and you better do amazingly well."

 

Not to go into lurid detail, but we both cracked... we did do well academically and both graduated from ivy league colleges, but today we are both just housewives with a host of "issues." She has worked a few odd jobs for the town where she lives but no career to speak of. My sister could have been an engineer, she is brilliant. We had other issues in the home, but the pressure we were constantly under was crushing. It made us go in the opposite direction. Neither of us has many regrets but we do find it ironic that after all the indoctrination, we both veered away from career and academia.

 

I really don't want to do that to my kids, but, I do find myself relentlessly emphasizing academics and study even when I try not to. I'm too unorganized to be a tiger mom but I push them and am critical when they slack off. I still don't know if I'm doing a good or bad thing here with them...? :confused:

 

Thanks for posting this. My parents were both first generation Americans....and they seemed to lack the go get'um attitude of many of their siblings. Their siblings were financially successful...and their children, my cousins, became doctors, nurses, lawyers and teachers. My parents were content being paycheck to paycheck, never owning a home, never graduating from school, never pushing us to do anything we didn't feel like doing.

I was gifted, brother is very mechanical and has run his own successful business for 25 years. I did well in school....was totally dissuaded about college, but went to CC for 18 months and earned my AAS in accounting with a 4.0. I only had enough money for 3 semesters...so I squished in 20+ credits a semester! When I graduated...they were happy. NOW I could get a JOB and help pay the bills.

 

Now, I don't want to stunt my kids...but I don't want to lay back either. Being poor is hard work! Dh and I have worked our way out of that, make a comfortable living, our older kids are either graduated from college or are in college earning good grades, yet....something still feels off kilter...iykwim.

 

Anyway, by looking at cultures that highlight success....encourage people to be their best....look to climb that ladder....I am hoping to find a place of happy medium. To be happy when my kids find something they love to do, do push when a push is needed....to hold back and say nothing when that makes more sense....

 

So, my curiosity is aroused....and since I am in another pain flare- up...where moving hurts, I figure I can research something until my brain hurts too.:D

 

Faithe

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think it has more to do with being the children of success-driven immigrants than asian culture per se. I'm sure there are plenty of slacker students in asian countries-- probably not to the degree you see here, but I doubt every asian student in every asian country is a type A perfectionist.

 

 

 

In Japan (which is the only Asian culture that I'm intimately acquainted with) that's sort of a yes and a no. Personality wise, of course not everyone is a Type A personality. But there is a lot of outside pressure - from parents, the community and the school - to buckle down in school.

 

The main reason is because life is pretty tracked there. Everyone starts out the same in elementary school but sixth graders are under tremendous pressure to study for their junior high exams. Depending on your grades on your junior high entrance exam, you go to Junior High A or B. Junior High A is better. Some kids commit suicide at this time.

 

At the end of junior high (8th grade), there is tremendous pressure again - for the high school entrance exams. Students from Junior High A who do well get to go to High school A. Students who don't do well go to High School B. Students from Junior High B who do well go to High School C. Those who don't go to High school D. (Or something like this. There might be a slight bit more variation now since it's been a number of years since I was there.)

 

Then there is pressure again at the end of high school for the college entrance exams. Students who do well, go to the best universities. Some of those who don't, go to college cram schools. I taught at one and some of these kids were on their second or third year trying to get into a better college. Some of the ones who don't do well on their college entrance exams, come to the US to study. Many of my students at the college cram school were students with families who didn't have the money to send them overseas.

 

Those from the best colleges go to the best jobs. That's the prize at the end of the rainbow. Many students pretty much blow off their university studies after they get in. All the university students I knew were incredulous that I actually studied long hours in university. (I didn't know any in Pre-Med though!)

 

There are some private schools in Japan (mostly Catholic) but I don't know if they track or how that works. None of the kids from my neighborhood went to them.

 

I did know kids who were junior high and high school troublemakers. They got into stuff like huffing and smoking but then went home and studied.

[Laura Corin]

In Japan (which is the only Asian culture that I'm intimately acquainted with) that's sort of a yes and a no. Personality wise, of course not everyone is a Type A personality. But there is a lot of outside pressure - from parents, the community and the school - to buckle down in school.

 

The pressure on pupils is intense. The one-child policy has exacerbated this: one child feels the pressure of two parents and four grandparents, as well as the wider culture. Often those grandparents' education was disrupted by the Cultural Revolution, so they want their grandchildren to have all the success that they were denied.

 

Laura

[angela in ohio]

Everyone who expects more than you is going to end up personally unfulfilled with suicidal dc who can't function on their own or handle failure. Anyone who does less is a big slacker who is failing as a parent. ;) That's what you're likely to hear. :lol:

 

I just wanted to recommend the book Top of the Class if you want more insight into the Asian immigrant parenting style.

 

All I have is anecdotal evidence in this country, which isn't much help. We run in circles (math competitions and orchestra) with many Asian families. I personally think they are well off because they have community. They have a group of others who are on the same path as they are, and they stick together closely. Imagine raising academic dc and having it be mainstream in your culture rather than a constant fight up stream!

 

Seriously, the radically different culture would make any comparison difficult.

[jennynd]

I grew up in Taiwan,

It was many years back so things might change a bit. But I have to pass a high school entrance exam to go to the top "public" high school. which only about 10-15% can get in. The rest will go either the private high school which is consider 2nd stream or technical/business school (3yrs or 5 yrs) . By going technical/business type high school. You basically are not going to college. And then the big national entrance exam for college. which at my time, only about 20-30% of the people who goes to the public/private high can get in. And that is not even talk about the top universities (national university) So, yes, the competition is tough and if you want to go to top university, it generally means study hard, cram school ....etc.

Some people tried multiple times to get in, but still fail.

[TechWife]

Imagine raising academic dc and having it be mainstream in your culture rather than a constant fight up stream!

 

 

I'm going to start another thread from this idea - come play, everyone! I'd love to hear your thoughts:).