A question about belief in how God works and the nature of prayer

[JenniferB]

I'm sorry you had to deal with such a shortsighted woman. I'm sorry you've had to deal wtih having an ill child. You have my best wishes for your dd.

 

I have also encountered her type too many times - I came to the conclusion they hold to the position of "if you only had-faith/were-more-righteous you wouldn't ____. . . " becasue they think they have faith/are-more-righteous so they will be spared hardship. (and more importantly - if bad things can happen to "faithful/righteous" people, bad things might happen to them. -gasp!) I believe that deep down, their faith is actually weak. It takes far more faith to walk that hard road than to take the bypass. (not saying that the bypass is unwelcome when it comes)

 

She probably hasn't read Job recently either.

 

Just reading a teesy, tiny bit of Church History would erase that idea right away. The righteous throughout time have suffered greatly.

[gardenmom5]

Just reading a teesy, tiny bit of Church History would erase that idea right away. The righteous throughout time have suffered greatly.

 

first, I am a deeply religious person.

 

I suggested it was the woman who told Tara if she prayed and had faith her daughter would be "cured" hadn't read Job. (and needed to). It was the woman proclaimng her own daughter was "cured" because she had faith and had prayed who was clueless about "righteous people throughout time suffering greatly".

[JenniferB]

first, I am a deeply religious person.

 

I suggested it was the woman who told Tara if she prayed and had faith her daughter would be "cured" hadn't read Job. (and needed to). It was the woman proclaimng her own daughter was "cured" because she had faith and had prayed who was clueless about "righteous people throughout time suffering greatly".

 

Yes. :iagree:

[AvasMom]

I'm in the middle of reading C.S. Lewis' "The Problem of Pain." Best book I've ever read on the topic and it's only about 100 pages long. Definitely a must read and will answer a lot of your questions FAR better than I ever could.

[justamouse]

I am a Hindu and pretty agnostic right now. But even when I was strongly theistic I did not think of God as a someone sitting and tuning in to prayers and granting wishes as s/he pleased.

 

I do not believe God intervenes in people's lives. Our lives are directed by the choices we make. Our perceptions of good and bad are just that - perceptions. What we see as misfortune is not always so. One of my favorite stories is the one about the Chinese farmer who lost his horse.

 

Our joy and our pain is pretty real to us and it is therefore only natural that we define the nature of existence through our eyes. But if you think about it, we are but just a speck and the world moves around oblivious to our existence.

 

I love that story, too. And the poem by Mitzua Masahide

 

Barn's burnt down

 

 

Barn's burnt down --

 

now

 

I can see the moon.

 

 

[Ginevra]

This has been banging around in my head for a little while, and I'm still not entirely sure I even have my questions straightened out, so please bear with my incoherence and forgive me if accidentally offend. I don't mean to, truly.

 

Do you believe God answers prayers? Do you believe he (or she, or however you may refer to an almighty consciousness) pays attention and can directly intervene when he so chooses? If you do, why do you suppose he answers some prayers and not others? Small prayers and not big ones? Why do some families full of kind and caring people seem to have a great deal of misfortune that they don't deserve while others have good fortune that they don't seem to deserve?

 

TIA for your thoughts on this. I don't mind if you ramble on :D

 

I am in limbo. I don't know what I can believe. This very question has been important to me for several years.

 

One of the last things to push me back away from Christianity was realizing that it didn't make any sense to have a God who would help *this* person find her missing car keys and let *that* person's baby die.

 

[right around the time I was asking some big questions of my own, a family lost their 14 month old to some kind of asthma type thing..]

 

It just.. doesn't make sense. (and neither do all of the explanations that involve "well, God works in mysterious ways" and stuff.)

 

Yes, this is the sort of thing that has troubled me. In one famous incident, shortly after my daughter died at birth, my mother bragged to me about how my sister's dog miraculously survived Parvo. I was raw at the time and most of my filters were gone, but I cried, "Does God save dogs and let babies die?!"

 

I'm not really okay with it, no matter how many awesome books and lovely people have tried to give me a rational, faithful way of understanding this conundrum.

 

One of the reasons that I never became Christian (despite the best efforts of people too numerous to mention or count who tried to convince me to accept Christ) is that the whole prayer idea never made sense to me.

 

I was once in a weird and, looking back on it, horrifying conversation with a woman who adopted a child who was diagnosed with the same chronic, life-threatening (and currently incurable) condition my dd has. When the child arrived from overseas, it was found that she did not, in fact, have this condition. The woman who adopted her spent quite some time explaining to me how god had answered their prayers by healing their child. She was completely unwilling to even consider the idea that her dd had been misdiagnosed and had never, in fact, had the condition. Although she did not come right out and say it, she strongly implied that, were I Christian and were I to pray hard enough, god would "heal" my child as well. Um ... sure.

 

Tara

 

:grouphug: I had a very similar internal reaction to a friend who told me how she went into labor early because God knew the baby needed to be out, because the cord was wrapped around the baby's neck...blah, blah, blah. How can I interpret this any way except, "Hmm. God did me no such favors. Didn't He 'know' my baby needed to come out earlier to avoid death in labor?" It felt like an insult. Also, I was a fervent pray-er at that time; my baby was covered in prayer before she was even conceived. But it made no difference in the end.

 

There is never a "reason" that will make it acceptable that my daughter died. Whatever good may have come from it, whatever unseen "puzzle pieces" I don't know about - they are not worth it. I would rather have my Lydia.

[Aquinas Academy]

The nature of prayer is communion with God.

Prayers reflect what we believe about God. I've stopped telling God what He ought to be doing and have started asking for His mercy, reflecting that His love for me and those I love is better than my own.

 

A Catholic saint, Maximillian Kolbe, who offered his life in stead of another doomed to the Nazi gas chamber, said that God offers us each what we need to bring ourselves in closer relation to Him. For some, that is a feast of milk and honey; for others, it is the dry crust of bread. What this means to me is that I should stop asking for the obvious request--milk and honey--and instead be asking for the union with God that He will give me if I let Him...regardless of whether I eat dry crusts the rest of my days.

 

In Orthodoxy, the definition of a theologian is "one who prays." It's not about what you know; it's WHO you know. :0)

:iagree:Wonderfully said.

[LuvingLife]

I believe God answers prayers. I believe there are a variety of reasons why we might not get the answer we want, including but not limited to:

 

(1) God doesn't force people to do things, so if I pray for my husband to get a new job, for example, God won't force someone to hire him.

 

(2) Sometimes God knows that the thing we are asking for is not in our best interest, analogous to a child asking for our permission to jump off a building for fun.

 

(3) Sometimes our faith is tested by lack of answer and/or answer we don't like.

 

(4) Sometimes life in a fallen world just stinks, in ways God can't/won't/doesn't choose to fix.

 

(5) Sometimes we just don't know.

 

But I have faith that God _hears_ every single prayer, even if the answer isn't immediate and/or what we wanted.

 

:iagree: Amen to this!! I feel He answers every prayer that is sent up to Him, He answers everything in due time. This isn't a religion it is a Faith, you either believe or you don't, but just because one bad things happens to you doesn;t mean God isn't there. It is a test of Faith, and you have to praise God in the good times just as much as you praise Him in the bad.

 

This is what I believe and no one can tell me otherwise.

[gardenmom5]

:grouphug: I had a very similar internal reaction to a friend who told me how she went into labor early because God knew the baby needed to be out, because the cord was wrapped around the baby's neck...blah, blah, blah. How can I interpret this any way except, "Hmm. God did me no such favors. Didn't He 'know' my baby needed to come out earlier to avoid death in labor?" It felt like an insult. Also, I was a fervent pray-er at that time; my baby was covered in prayer before she was even conceived. But it made no difference in the end.

 

.

you have my condolences on the death of your daughter.

 

considering how many babies have nuchal cords and are born just fine - I would interpret it as a flaky girl overreacting to things she really doens't undertand. I'd be rolling my eyes.

[Ginevra]

Tara, :grouphug:

 

There really is no good answer to your question. I did for some reason though feel like I needed to respond since I do have kind of a unique perspective on your question.

 

First, I will start by saying that I am a Christian but I myself have asked the very question you have asked.

 

My son was diagnosed with Leukemia is 2002 and underwent 3 years of chemotherapy. He had to go through 21 spinal taps, 10 bone marrow aspirations, thousands of venipunctures, multiple hospitalizations, extreme sickness, etc. etc. I often found myself questioning why God would let my child suffer through that. Sometimes, honestly, I still do. ;)

 

I can tell you though that my sons life was dramatically changed BECAUSE of what he went through. He just turned 13 this year and for the first time he is truly understanding what it means to be a Leukemia survivor. He understand his own mortality and BECAUSE of what he went through he values not only his life, but the lives of others on a much deeper level than he ever would have had he not walked that road.

 

Today he is an honored hero for the Leukemia and Lymphoma Societies "Team in Training." He is a living, breathing, inspiration to other families and children suffering with Leukemia. He visits children in the hospital who are in the thick of their battle and he offers them hope and support.

 

Let me tell you, back when my son was first diagnosed, do you know what it would have meant to me to have had a healthy, vibrant, young man come visit him in the hospital and give us a hug and let us know that there is hope? Back then I didn't know if my son would live or die and being given the chance to meet a young man that not only survived but is thriving would have meant the world to me!!

 

My son is now that hope for others. He uses the trials he has faced for good. He is not like normal kids. He WANTS to use what he went through to help others. He even says he wants to be a Pharm D when he grows up so that he can research the pharmacology side of cancer treatment.

 

I always joke with him that he has the wisdom of a 60 year old man in a 13 year old body. (At least in some things. :lol:) He also volunteers for The American Cancer Society. He also seems to have a heightened amount of sympathy for others. He volunteers at our regional food bank and goes to feed the homeless every month.

 

Illness, hunger, poverty, unjustice, etc. are things that he advocates very strongly against. I am certain that it is BECAUSE of what he went through that made him have such a passion for those things at such a young age. Had he never faced those trials I don't think he would have grown up into the young man he is today. I honestly have never met a kid like him. My own daughter is more like a "typical" kid and tends to have the "it's all about me" mentality.

 

Not my son. He is attuned to others hardships and fears. He advocates for the needy and offers advice and support to the sick.

 

Anyway, back to your original question. Because of how my son turned out, I have often wondered if God allowed him to go through those years of hell in order to change his heart and lead him to the place that would make him into the wonderful young man he is today. I know my son would never have had a passion for all of the things so near to his heart if he had not lived though those tragic experiences himself. It has made him have a unique understanding of what children with Leukemia are going through so now he offeres hope and support to them because he understands and has been there.

 

Does that makes sense?

 

I still can't answer your question and I wouldn't even try. I can only offer you a glympse into what having a child that has suffered through an illnees has meant to our family and what it has meant to our son. I don't know why God lets some suffer and not others. I don't know why God allowed my son to go through what he did. I can tell you though that 10 years later (my son is now a 10 year survivor) I am seeing something not only positive but truly amazing come out of it. I am seeing a child that went through unimaginable hell, grow up into a caring, empathetic, and honerable young man because of what that experience taught him.

 

Am I thankful for his sickness? Heck no!!! I would have to be psycho to be thankful my son went though that. It does make me wonder though if God really did "see" the bigger picture and knew that he wanted my son to be the kind of man that gave to others. It has allowed me to accept that perhaps what I wanted for my son wasn't what God wanted for him. Perhaps my son needed to travel that road in order to end up at the destination that was meant for him.

 

Anyway, it's just something to think about. I do believe in God and personally, I do believe that God had a plan for my son and that his battle with Leukemia was part of that plan. I don't know exactly how my son's future will map out but I am certain that because of what he went through, he will use his experiences for the good as long as he lives. That's the only justification I have for his suffering. I believe it helped mold and shape my son into the person he is today. At least that belief gives me peace.

 

:grouphug:

 

 

mommyrooch,

 

Your son sound truly wonderful, and I have no doubt that some of that wonderfulness bloomed in the wake of the horrors he and your family went through.

 

I hope this will not sound like a discredit to that; it's not what I mean at all. But what bugs me sometimes when people have been to hell and back is that they are back. They do have hope and a future. They survived. They made it through. It's relatively easier to accept that you went through horrors if it comes right eventually.

 

It is harder to find that silver lining when The End did actually come. When the accident happened and there's a missing dinner plate at the table or the baby's crib sits empty or any other final outcome. It is harder (to me, pretty much impossible) to accept that God Said No - not later, not maybe, not it will be hard for a while, but in the end you'll be better for it - Just NO. You're done. The End.

 

That is what is so painful for me.

[Kari C in SC]

I am in limbo. I don't know what I can believe. This very question has been important to me for several years.

 

 

 

Yes, this is the sort of thing that has troubled me. In one famous incident, shortly after my daughter died at birth, my mother bragged to me about how my sister's dog miraculously survived Parvo. I was raw at the time and most of my filters were gone, but I cried, "Does God save dogs and let babies die?!"

 

I'm not really okay with it, no matter how many awesome books and lovely people have tried to give me a rational, faithful way of understanding this conundrum.

 

 

 

:grouphug: I had a very similar internal reaction to a friend who told me how she went into labor early because God knew the baby needed to be out, because the cord was wrapped around the baby's neck...blah, blah, blah. How can I interpret this any way except, "Hmm. God did me no such favors. Didn't He 'know' my baby needed to come out earlier to avoid death in labor?" It felt like an insult. Also, I was a fervent pray-er at that time; my baby was covered in prayer before she was even conceived. But it made no difference in the end.

 

There is never a "reason" that will make it acceptable that my daughter died. Whatever good may have come from it, whatever unseen "puzzle pieces" I don't know about - they are not worth it. I would rather have my Lydia.

 

 

Lots and lots of hugs. I felt every bit of your sadness and pain. Could have written this myself. I try so hard to find the good in the bad things. Even when I can find the good that came from losing my son or losing my sister, I can find so many more AWFUL things that have happened from it. My faith is God is so much in me. I just don't know that I believe all the stuff people tell me. As you know, losing a child is a journey. It takes you to the darkest places of your soul and leaves you questioning every thing. I am so sorry for your loss. I want you to know that when I read about a lost child now whether they are an infant or 60 years old - I take the time to read their NAME and think about the human being they were and how much they meant to somebody. I don't think I did that before I lost my own child, but I do it now. Lydia is a beautiful name.

[Kari C in SC]

mommyrooch,

 

Your son sound truly wonderful, and I have no doubt that some of that wonderfulness bloomed in the wake of the horrors he and your family went through.

 

I hope this will not sound like a discredit to that; it's not what I mean at all. But what bugs me sometimes when people have been to hell and back is that they are back. They do have hope and a future. They survived. They made it through. It's relatively easier to accept that you went through horrors if it comes right eventually.

 

It is harder to find that silver lining when The End did actually come. When the accident happened and there's a missing dinner plate at the table or the baby's crib sits empty or any other final outcome. It is harder (to me, pretty much impossible) to accept that God Said No - not later, not maybe, not it will be hard for a while, but in the end you'll be better for it - Just NO. You're done. The End.

 

That is what is so painful for me.

 

You wrote in a perfect and gentle way exactly what I was thinking. I don't wish losing a child on anyone, but this hurts to read. My son walked the roads of Iraq carrying a gun on over 150 missions. He was put in dangers way and saw awful things. He came back an amazing man only to be killed by a stupid car. Why wasn't he allowed to change the world?

[8circles]

My heart hurts for all of you who shared such pain in this thread.

 

I'm so sorry for your loss. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[JudoMom]

My heart hurts for all of you who shared such pain in this thread.

 

I'm so sorry for your loss. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

:iagree: :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[mommyrooch]

mommyrooch,

 

Your son sound truly wonderful, and I have no doubt that some of that wonderfulness bloomed in the wake of the horrors he and your family went through.

 

I hope this will not sound like a discredit to that; it's not what I mean at all. But what bugs me sometimes when people have been to hell and back is that they are back. They do have hope and a future. They survived. They made it through. It's relatively easier to accept that you went through horrors if it comes right eventually.

 

It is harder to find that silver lining when The End did actually come. When the accident happened and there's a missing dinner plate at the table or the baby's crib sits empty or any other final outcome. It is harder (to me, pretty much impossible) to accept that God Said No - not later, not maybe, not it will be hard for a while, but in the end you'll be better for it - Just NO. You're done. The End.

 

That is what is so painful for me. :grouphug:

 

You know, you're absolutely right and it's ironic that you mentioned that side of it.

 

I didn't mention it in my earlier post because I didn't want everyone to think I was trying to gain sympathy because I'm not but believe it or not, I have lived through that side of it too. That's why I understand what you mean because I have faced the END, FINAL, GAME OVER!!

 

In 1997 my husband and I lost our first son Tanner. We lost him to medical negligance so there was no rhyme or reason to it. Because a doctor screwed up I now have that empty place at my dinner table. I remember like it was yesterday when Tanner crashed and his heart stopped. I remember begging God to not take my son. I prayed with everything I had that he would live but he didn't. He died and now every year on his birthday we go and visit his grave instead of having him here. His picture sits on my entertainment center between my other two children and every day I'm reminded of what is no more. Had Tanner lived he would have been 14 this year.

 

That's why when I wrote to TaratheLiberator it really wasn't just lip service. I'm not one of those people that live with rose colored glasses on. I know first hand that crap happens and there's not a darn thing we can do about it. I learned that at the tender age of 21 when I buried my first son.

 

I was in a really dark place for awhile after Tanner died and I strayed from God. To this day I still don't know why God took him (despite my prayers) but I have finally come to realize that I must have faith and God knew something I didn't. Honestly, it is that faith that has kept me sain. Had I not found my faith again I'm not sure where I would have ended up because I can't justify or explain my son's senseless death. Having no comfort or peace that perhaps there was a purpose for it would be hell on earth.

 

Maybe it is because I did see some good come out of my second son's trials that I was able to finally believe again that a bad thing can have a positive impact. The point is though that I don't have all of the answers. I don't think any of us do. That is why it is called faith. We can either trust our lives to God believing that he knows more than we do or we can choose to not believe. Personally, even after all I have been through (or perhaps because of it) I choose to believe. :)

[Haiku]

In 1997 my husband and I lost our first son Tanner.

 

:grouphug:

 

How much pain can we squeeze into one thread? I'm amazed and touched that people are willing to share such personal, intimate things.

 

Blessings to all of you.

 

Tara

[mommyrooch]

I am in limbo. I don't know what I can believe. This very question has been important to me for several years.

 

 

 

Yes, this is the sort of thing that has troubled me. In one famous incident, shortly after my daughter died at birth, my mother bragged to me about how my sister's dog miraculously survived Parvo. I was raw at the time and most of my filters were gone, but I cried, "Does God save dogs and let babies die?!"

 

I'm not really okay with it, no matter how many awesome books and lovely people have tried to give me a rational, faithful way of understanding this conundrum.

 

 

 

:grouphug: I had a very similar internal reaction to a friend who told me how she went into labor early because God knew the baby needed to be out, because the cord was wrapped around the baby's neck...blah, blah, blah. How can I interpret this any way except, "Hmm. God did me no such favors. Didn't He 'know' my baby needed to come out earlier to avoid death in labor?" It felt like an insult. Also, I was a fervent pray-er at that time; my baby was covered in prayer before she was even conceived. But it made no difference in the end.

 

There is never a "reason" that will make it acceptable that my daughter died. Whatever good may have come from it, whatever unseen "puzzle pieces" I don't know about - they are not worth it. I would rather have my Lydia.

 

:grouphug: I am so sorry to hear about your daughter. I too lost my son so I understand your pain. A parent should never endure loosing a child. It was the hardest thing I have ever had to endure. I'm so sorry you too had to live through that. I would never wish that kind of pain on my worst enemy. :grouphug:

[Kari C in SC]

In 1997 my husband and I lost our first son Tanner.

 

There just aren't any words. I try to understand why some of us have such trials and others not so much. Then I just give up and let it all go. Hugs to you for all that you have been through. I know all to well that it takes everything we have to keep on moving ahead.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

..

Edited October 14, 2011 by wy_kid_wrangler04

[mommyrooch]

:grouphug:

 

How much pain can we squeeze into one thread? I'm amazed and touched that people are willing to share such personal, intimate things.

 

Blessings to all of you.

 

Tara

 

Thank you Tara! :grouphug:

 

I just wanted Quill to know that I was in no way trying to diminish anyone's tragedies. My heart broke for her when I read that she too had lost a child. I was only trying to offer some reasoning into why God "might" allow tragdy to occur. I never in a million years wanted it to come across that good will always come out of bad. I was only offering an example of how sometimes it "can" Not that it always will. That's why I shared with her the fact that I too had lost a child. I wanted to assure her that I too had felt that kind of pain and have also faced my own demons in regards to trying to answer the ultimate question of... WHY?

 

I didn't want her to think that I believed the world was always rosy. I can't imagine anyone praying for anything as hard as I prayed for my son to live but my prayers, like Quill's, never came to pass. As I mentioned earlier, perhaps that is why I NEED my faith because without it I would face an anger and a darkness that I know I can't combat. I know because I was at that place after Tanner died. I lived with that anger and that darkness. I can't go back there again so that is why I hold on to my faith. For me, it is the only thing that has given me at least a hope that my son's death wasn't for nothing. Does that make sense?

[Kari C in SC]

Thank you Tara! :grouphug:

 

I just wanted Quill to know that I was in no way trying to diminish anyone's tragedies. My heart broke for her when I read that she too had lost a child. I was only trying to offer some reasoning into why God "might" allow tragdy to occur. I never in a million years wanted it to come across that good will always come out of bad. I was only offering an example of how sometimes it "can" Not that it always will. That's why I shared with her the fact that I too had lost a child. I wanted to assure her that I too had felt that kind of pain and have also faced my own demons in regards to trying to answer the ultimate question of... WHY?

 

I didn't want her to think that I believed the world was always rosy. I can't imagine anyone praying for anything as hard as I prayed for my son to live but my prayers, like Quill's, never came to pass. As I mentioned earlier, perhaps that is why I NEED my faith because without it I would face an anger and a darkness that I know I can't combat. I know because I was at that place after Tanner died. I lived with that anger and that darkness. I can't go back there again so that is why I hold on to my faith. For me, it is the only thing that has given me at least a hope that my son's death wasn't for nothing. Does that make sense?

 

It makes perfect sense.

[mommyrooch]

You wrote in a perfect and gentle way exactly what I was thinking. I don't wish losing a child on anyone, but this hurts to read. My son walked the roads of Iraq carrying a gun on over 150 missions. He was put in dangers way and saw awful things. He came back an amazing man only to be killed by a stupid car. Why wasn't he allowed to change the world?

 

Kari, :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I am so sorry to hear about your son. Like Tara, I'm wondering how much pain and tragedy can be squeezed into one thread.

 

Thank you also for your kind words. They really mean a lot to me. :grouphug:

[Ginevra]

You know, you're absolutely right and it's ironic that you mentioned that side of it.

 

I didn't mention it in my earlier post because I didn't want everyone to think I was trying to gain sympathy because I'm not but believe it or not, I have lived through that side of it too. That's why I understand what you mean because I have faced the END, FINAL, GAME OVER!!

 

In 1997 my husband and I lost our first son Tanner. We lost him to medical negligance so there was no rhyme or reason to it. Because a doctor screwed up I now have that empty place at my dinner table. I remember like it was yesterday when Tanner crashed and his heart stopped. I remember begging God to not take my son. I prayed with everything I had that he would live but he didn't. He died and now every year on his birthday we go and visit his grave instead of having him here. His picture sits on my entertainment center between my other two children and every day I'm reminded of what is no more. Had Tanner lived he would have been 14 this year.

 

That's why when I wrote to TaratheLiberator it really wasn't just lip service. I'm not one of those people that live with rose colored glasses on. I know first hand that crap happens and there's not a darn thing we can do about it. I learned that at the tender age of 21 when I buried my first son.

 

I was in a really dark place for awhile after Tanner died and I strayed from God. To this day I still don't know why God took him (despite my prayers) but I have finally come to realize that I must have faith and God knew something I didn't. Honestly, it is that faith that has kept me sain. Had I not found my faith again I'm not sure where I would have ended up because I can't justify or explain my son's senseless death. Having no comfort or peace that perhaps there was a purpose for it would be hell on earth.

 

Maybe it is because I did see some good come out of my second son's trials that I was able to finally believe again that a bad thing can have a positive impact. The point is though that I don't have all of the answers. I don't think any of us do. That is why it is called faith. We can either trust our lives to God believing that he knows more than we do or we can choose to not believe. Personally, even after all I have been through (or perhaps because of it) I choose to believe. :)

 

You're a much better woman than I. I am glad it isn't just lip service you pay. I am so sorry for the loss of Tanner and the hardships of Leukemia with your second son. It's really more than one person should bear.

 

About the part I highlighted: I did think this way in the first year or so after my baby died. But it changed; I see it differently. It is easier to accept that junk happens because junk happens, then it is to accept that God could have done differently, but didn't. It's easier for me to reconcile that biology doesn't always work perfectly; some babies die, others (most) don't.

 

See, for me there is a disconnect between what Christians usually say they believe about God and prayer and what they actually do. Most recognize that God does not have any obligation to heal their mother from cancer, or help dh find work or protect the kids from bad influences. Yet, they pray for it anyway. Even I do, if I'm desperate enough. When a child is sick, the urgent call goes out to pray for the child. Of course everybody wants the child to live, to heal. But most Christians will agree that a prayer is not answered simply because more of them are going up, yet they will activate a prayer chain to get lots of people praying anyway. So, people say that good may come of it if God does not heal their child, but they (of course!) want their child healed anyway. Nobody (that I know of) prays, "God, if I will be a better person in the end, please go ahead and let my child die."

 

I feel like I'm rambling now, but I'm just trying to get all my scrambled thoughts down about this torturous topic that has nagged me for ages.

[Mimm]

THIS is exactly what I have had to do with prayer. I have spent 16 months asking WHY? Why did God allow my child to die? And 8 years before that... WHY? Why did God allow a wonderful Christian homeschool mom (my sister-in-law) to be stabbed to death by her adopted son? WHY? Did we not pray for them? Did we not do what was good and right and especially in my sister-in-law's case - biblical?

 

While my son was in Iraq, we prayed for his safety. Then he came home and I will admit... I stopped praying for his safety as much. Afterall... he wasn't in a warzone. Part of me wanted to blame myself for not praying for him - no war - no prayer for safety. Then he gets in a car with a inexperienced driver and he is dead. I spent months with head games from what Christianity teaches. I tormented myself. Was he in heaven because he wasn't "saved", was he gone because I didn't pray - over and over and over. Then I realized that I believe in God with all my heart. I have since as early as I can remember. I believe in FAITH. I tried to NOT pray because what was the point. I kept going back to prayer because it was normal for me. These days I pray for peace in my mind. I pray for strength to do what I need to do. I have a friend that has a child in surgery today. I am praying for her, but not in the sense of please heal this child. More in the sense of God - I am thinking about this little girl. Please hold her family with you and help them along whatever path this will take. So, prayer to me is like sharing what is on my mind with God. Sometimes when I talk with him - good things happen as an outcome. Sometimes they don't. I don't think it really has all that much to do with whether or not I prayed for it. I think it just pleases God that I share my life with him, so I continue to pray or have that conversation.

 

I'm so sorry you lost your son. That's just horrifying and of course you aren't to blame. :( :grouphug:

[nono]

See, for me there is a disconnect between what Christians usually say they believe about God and prayer and what they actually do. Most recognize that God does not have any obligation to heal their mother from cancer, or help dh find work or protect the kids from bad influences.

 

Thank you for rambling. You've summed up why I rarely pray. I think a lot about religious/spiritual things and ideas, but I don't really pray for things to change here, esp. in my life.

 

Yes, I think I am Christian. Heck, I think I'm Catholic, probably to the dismay of some folks. ;)

[mommyrooch]

You're a much better woman than I.

 

No!! Believe me, I'm not! Any human being that has to endure tragedy and survives are heros and warriers in my book!

 

I am glad it isn't just lip service you pay. I am so sorry for the loss of Tanner and the hardships of Leukemia with your second son. It's really more than one person should bear.

 

Thank you. I appreciate your kindness.

 

About the part I highlighted: I did think this way in the first year or so after my baby died. But it changed; I see it differently.

 

Isn't it amazing how people cope differently? It was during the first year after I lost Tanner that I couldn't accept that perhaps there might have been a reason. That was my darkest time. It was only after I put my faith back in God that I was able to dig myself out of that pit.

 

It is easier to accept that junk happens because junk happens, then it is to accept that God could have done differently, but didn't. It's easier for me to reconcile that biology doesn't always work perfectly; some babies die, others (most) don't.

 

Sometimes, yes, it is easier. I completely agree! For me however, easier didn't equal better. It was never "easy" for me to accept that perhaps God had a reason for allowing my son to die. (I know you didn't mean that by the way. ;)) In fact, it was probably one of the hardest things I have ever had to work through. To this day, I still struggle with it and it's been over 10 years since Tanner died. However, I came to a crossroads in my life that I knew I couldn't keep living with the hate and the bitterness I was carrying around with me everyday. I knew I would never find the answer either way, at least not in this lifetime, ;) so I made the very difficult decision to put my faith back in God.

 

It would have been much "easier" to continue to hate, but for me, it seemed like carrying around that hatred made Tanner's death an even greater tragedy. It was like part of me died with him. It also cheapened his very existence to me. That hatred and bitterness took from me any joy that his life had offered me. For my sake, and for his memory, I just had to make a change. That's when I turned my life back over to God. I have never regretted that decision.

 

See, for me there is a disconnect between what Christians usually say they believe about God and prayer and what they actually do. Most recognize that God does not have any obligation to heal their mother from cancer, or help dh find work or protect the kids from bad influences. Yet, they pray for it anyway. Even I do, if I'm desperate enough. When a child is sick, the urgent call goes out to pray for the child. Of course everybody wants the child to live, to heal. But most Christians will agree that a prayer is not answered simply because more of them are going up, yet they will activate a prayer chain to get lots of people praying anyway.

 

Of course! At least for me, I am under no illusions that my prayers "will" do any good. I know that I ultimately have no control. My son Tanner's death taught me that lesson.

 

However, I do believe that God "can" heal and save. My second son's survival taught me that lesson. Again, for me it is the "hope" that God will answer my prayer that keeps me praying. It isn't the assurance that he will. For me, without the hope, I have nothing. With no hope what else is there left to fight for or live for? I need that hope so I pray. I pray with the belief that God does have the power to save. Now that I think about it, perhaps that's another positive that came out of my second son's trials. Had my son not have gotten cancer and survived I'm not sure that I would have ever really believed in the power of prayer again. I had lost all faith in it because I had prayed for one son and he died anyway. However, I found my faith again because I prayed for my second son and he lived.

 

So, people say that good may come of it if God does not heal their child, but they (of course!) want their child healed anyway. Nobody (that I know of) prays, "God, if I will be a better person in the end, please go ahead and let my child die."

 

No, I would never pray for God to take my child. However, I would pray that God do what's best for my child. Even if that meant that they not make it. To me, that prayer is one of unconditional love. Prayer for what is best for them, not what's best for me. Believe me, it's NOT easy to say that prayer. Especially in sight of knowing full well how it feels to loose one. However, it boils back down to trust. My trust that God knows more than I do. I have a very limited view of the future. (non existent by the way ;)) so I trust that God, in his wisdom, will do what is best.

 

For example, when Tanner crashed they worked on him for 58 minutes. I have often wondered what would have become of him had he lived. Would his life had been more tragic than his death? Would he have been brain dead because of having gone without oxygen for so long. Would he have lived a life of pain and suffering? You see, I don't think God took my son. A doctor's mistake took my son. Crap happening "took" my son. I don't believe that God "made" Tanner die. I believe that God "allowed" Tanner to die. For me, there is a monumental difference!

 

You could add the same argument into your theory of biology just not working the way it should in some cases. For me, it's easier to accept that God allowed death in wake of a break down in biology than it is to believe that God is a malicious tyrant that takes innocent babies. Does that makes sense? Perhaps God "allowed" Tanner to die because he knew more than I did and was actually saving him from a life of pain and suffering. I don't know but that's the point. I don't know, so I choose to have faith that God does and I put my trust in him.

 

I feel like I'm rambling now, but I'm just trying to get all my scrambled thoughts down about this torturous topic that has nagged me for ages.

 

Danielle, :grouphug: I hope that you can find the answers you seek. It really is a difficult topic and one that I certainly don't have the answers to. We must each walk our own roads and find our own way. The only things I can offer you are my own personal experiences in hopes that they might help you somehow. I can also offer you my friendship and support. I offer those completely! :grouphug:

 

BTW. I'm sorry this became so long. My hubby would tell you that once you get me started it's almost impossible to shut me up. :lol:

[Ginevra]

mommyrooch,

 

I had a long and well-thought out reply, but I just lost it and I don't have the energy to rewrite it.

 

Thanks so much for caring. I think I am a hopeless case.

[Ginevra]

Heh. Should have known that last post would nail the coffin shut on this thread. :tongue_smilie: Let me try again, but I will just stick to two important points.

 

 

However, I do believe that God "can" heal and save. My second son's survival taught me that lesson. Again, for me it is the "hope" that God will answer my prayer that keeps me praying. It isn't the assurance that he will. For me, without the hope, I have nothing. With no hope what else is there left to fight for or live for? I need that hope so I pray. I pray with the belief that God does have the power to save. Now that I think about it, perhaps that's another positive that came out of my second son's trials. Had my son not have gotten cancer and survived I'm not sure that I would have ever really believed in the power of prayer again. I had lost all faith in it because I had prayed for one son and he died anyway. However, I found my faith again because I prayed for my second son and he lived.

 

 

This fits into why I am going back to having serious doubts. For a long time, I looked for God to do something that would redeem my daughter's death. I expected it. Something like: we would adopt a child/children that had no parents, put a big checkmark in the "love wins" column. Or whatever way it would come. But it has not come. I'm pretty much at the place now where I have to give up my fantasies that something will make it right. God has not ridden in on a white horse and amazed me with what He can do. I am in fact, stuck at the point you say you would be if your second son did not have cancer and live. What if he had died also? Could you have salvaged your faith? (You don't have to answer that; it's just food for thought.)

 

For example, when Tanner crashed they worked on him for 58 minutes. I have often wondered what would have become of him had he lived. Would his life had been more tragic than his death? Would he have been brain dead because of having gone without oxygen for so long. Would he have lived a life of pain and suffering? You see, I don't think God took my son. A doctor's mistake took my son. Crap happening "took" my son. I don't believe that God "made" Tanner die. I believe that God "allowed" Tanner to die. For me, there is a monumental difference!

 

 

First, I totally get the bolded part. I had asked myself this question, too. Suppose the doctors had been able to immediately cut me open and rescue my girl. I cannot be sure that the outcome would be better. My body may have been irreparable for future children. She may have died anyway. She might have been damaged from lack of oxygen in a way that would be more difficult than her death. So, I have no illusions that if only XYZ had happened, everything would have been fine. We live the life we live and there is no way to know what would have happened in another scenario.

 

But- the "allowing" vs. "causing" - that has troubled me. It's not comforting to me if God "allows" horrible things he could have prevented. Is a negligent parent excusable where a malicious parent is not? If a parent lets their toddler wander around outside and they fall in the pool and drown, is that much better than the parent who holds her child under water till they drown? We still punish parents for criminal neglect. They may not be as despicable as the Andrea Yates mothers, but we don't love them, either.

 

Biblically, do we not see ample evidence that God does cause death and harm? Who killed the Egyptian firstborns? Who destroyed Soddom and Gommorah (sp?)? And even where we see evidence of God "allowing" death and hardshp (Job), is that comforting? It isn't to me.

[mommyrooch]

This fits into why I am going back to having serious doubts. For a long time, I looked for God to do something that would redeem my daughter's death. I expected it. Something like: we would adopt a child/children that had no parents, put a big checkmark in the "love wins" column. Or whatever way it would come. But it has not come. I'm pretty much at the place now where I have to give up my fantasies that something will make it right. God has not ridden in on a white horse and amazed me with what He can do.

 

Your statement above just made me shiver. I am so very concerned that you really think that something like the unimaginable suffering my second son when through, and survived, would somehow make your daughter's death "right" for you and would redeem it. Please believe me when I tell you that you do NOT want God to show you what he can do if it comes at the price I paid watching my son battle cancer! The suffering he went through and the scars it left him, I, and our family with are anything but the fantasy you seek.

 

I can still remember when he was about 4 and they were holding him down during one of his many spinal taps. He was screaming in fear and pain. All of a sudden, my little boy stopped crying and looked over at me with eyes that haunt me today and said in a deperate whisper "Mommy, why are you letting them do this to me?" I fell to my knees in anguish. All my little boy saw in that moment was that those people were hurting him and I was allowing them to do it. How could I explain to him that Mommy was trying to save his life. :confused:

 

This was just one of the many examples of the horrors our family faced as we battled our son's cancer. Believe me, the price was too great and you do NOT want to live through something like in order to "redeem" your daughter's dealth.

 

And please take my word for it that NOTHING will ever make it right and NOTHING can ever redeem it! My son battling cancer did not set right the death of my first son. Nothing will ever do that. And even if it could have, I would never have wanted my second son to go through what he went through just to find justification for my first son's death. It just wasn't worth it and the only way to truly understand that is if you really did have to go through that battle like I did and he did. Then and only then could you clearly see just how high a price your other child had to pay.

 

I am in fact, stuck at the point you say you would be if your second son did not have cancer and live. What if he had died also? Could you have salvaged your faith? (You don't have to answer that; it's just food for thought.)

 

No worries! I'd love to answer it. ;) Yes! I would have been able to salvage my faith even it my second son had died. I would have eventually found my way back again. I have no doubt in my mind. You know why? Because I see God in everything around me. Not just in my son's survival. I see him and hear him in my daughter's laughter. I feel him in my husbands touch. Remember, my husband has walked down this difficult road with me. In everything we have shared and overcome, good and bad, I am able to find God. But you know what? I was looking for him. and I still actively seek him. That makes all the difference in the world! If you remember, I clearly pointed out that I didn't want to live in that pit of hatred and despair. I needed out of it so I was desperately seeking a change. At the time, I wasn't aware it was God I was seeking but looking back, I know it was.

 

My son's battle with cancer did help me find my way but my faith is not built on his survival alone. In fact, because of loosing Tanner, it is quite the opposite. I have no illusions as to the mortality of my family. I KNOW I could lose both of my children tomorrow. My husband could easily get killed in a car wreck on his way to work. Yet, I also know that I am at a place in my faith that I would not turn from God should either of those happen. I wasn't at that place when Tanner died. That is why I fell away from him for awhile. However, even at my lowest point, I was able to find my way back because deep down I wanted to. Period. Final!

 

I know you're not there yet. Perhaps you never will be but you will never find God unless you choose to make that change. That is why I said that we must each walk our own roads. Some find their way back to God. Others don't. It is a very personal choice that each person has to make on their own. You will never see the good that God might be offering you unless you are trying to find it. You have to want to see it or it will get lost among the darkness. In life, it is easy to only see the bad. It is monumentally harder to see the good.

 

 

But- the "allowing" vs. "causing" - that has troubled me. It's not comforting to me if God "allows" horrible things he could have prevented.

 

See, this is where my faith comes in. I can only see through my very limited eyes so how am I to know for sure that the tragedy is truly horrible?

 

Here's an example. I have often wondered if God took Tanner to prepare me for my second son. Let me explain. Tanner very specifically died of medical negligence. Before loosing him I was extremely complacent when it came to medical issues. I knew something was terribly wrong even before he died but I blindly "trusted" my doctor. They were the doctor, I wasn't. Well, I buried my son because of that fatal lapse in judgement. It is something that haunts me daily because I have no doubt that his death could have been prevented. Heck, I could blame myself more as much or more than I could blame God. I know something was wrong and I did nothing. I didn't know what to do so I guess I would be in that negligent category. I blindy trusted my doctor and my son paid the ultimate price because of my negligence.

 

Well, that experience changed me dramatically more than anything else ever could. Because of not only loosing Tanner but because of HOW I lost him I became a completely different person. I no longer blindly trusted doctors. I became a beast when it came to medical issues. I would have NEVER became that kind of person had I not lost Tanner the way I did.

 

I began researching everything, questioning everything and was more than willing to stand up and fight a doctor if need be. Imagine how that new found power came into play when my second son was diagnosed with Leukemia. I would never have been the advocate for my son that I became had I not lost Tanner to medical negligence before him. That's another long story but lets just suffice it to say that as a result of my research and advocating, I got my son's therapy changed to a different regimine because all studies indicated that kids were likely to relapse on the protocol he was originally on. I contacted doctors across the country including St. Jude's, MD Anderson, Children's in New York, UT Southwestern, and John's Hopkins and all agreed that my son needed this particular therapy. I even transferred his care out of state to get it.

 

A few years later studies showed that kids that were on the protocol my son was originally on had very high rates of relapse and death. To this day I can't help knowing that I very well might have saved my second son's life because I fought against his doctors. Tanner might have saved his life because he taught me how to fight against his brothers doctors. Perhaps my second son was the one I was meant to have all along and God knew I needed to go through that to prepare me for the battle ahead. And perhaps that battle was needed in order to mold my second son into the young man he has now become.

 

Heck, I don't know but that's the point. Because I am looking for God and seeking him out I am able to recognize the possibility that God very well could have had a reason for both tragedies in my life.

 

Is a negligent parent excusable where a malicious parent is not? If a parent lets their toddler wander around outside and they fall in the pool and drown, is that much better than the parent who holds her child under water till they drown?

 

In the case of God I don't see it as neglect. Are there not times in all of our lives that experience becomes a MUCH better teacher than mere words? In our daily lives do personal experiences usually have a much greater impact on us than words. Take jobs for example. Can you truly become a master craftsman by simply reading a book or do you need to work at it to become proficient? It is not neglect if the parent is making a conscious decision for the good of the child knowing that the child needs that experience in order get where they need to be.

 

I am living proof of how experiences change a person. Whether I liked the life lessons I got or not doesn't change the fact that I am CERTAINLY a much different person now having gone through those experiences than I EVER would have been had I not traveled those roads. No one can argue that it changed me dramatically. Whether they believe God had anything to do with it or not.

 

Biblically, do we not see ample evidence that God does cause death and harm? Who killed the Egyptian firstborns? Who destroyed Soddom and Gommorah (sp?)? And even where we see evidence of God "allowing" death and hardshp (Job), is that comforting? It isn't to me.

 

Honestly, it isn't always to me either. Those are the times that I have to work extra hard to find God in the midst of those hardships because ultimately, I believe he does care and that he does love us. I have to just be willing to trust him. That's sometimes something others are never able to do though. :grouphug:

[Kari C in SC]

 

For example, when Tanner crashed they worked on him for 58 minutes. I have often wondered what would have become of him had he lived. Would his life had been more tragic than his death? Would he have been brain dead because of having gone without oxygen for so long. Would he have lived a life of pain and suffering? You see, I don't think God took my son. A doctor's mistake took my son. Crap happening "took" my son. I don't believe that God "made" Tanner die. I believe that God "allowed" Tanner to die. For me, there is a monumental difference!

 

You could add the same argument into your theory of biology just not working the way it should in some cases. For me, it's easier to accept that God allowed death in wake of a break down in biology than it is to believe that God is a malicious tyrant that takes innocent babies. Does that makes sense? Perhaps God "allowed" Tanner to die because he knew more than I did and was actually saving him from a life of pain and suffering. I don't know but that's the point. I don't know, so I choose to have faith that God does and I put my trust in him.

 

 

 

It took me awhile to believe as you do too. At the beginning I would cry to God for taking him away. Then I began to believe that God didn't do it - He just allowed it.

 

At this very moment, my son's unit is in the Kandahar province in Afghanistan. They have lost 18 men since May. When my son was in Iraq he saw a little girl beaten brutally because he gave her a piece of candy. It haunted him to the point that he couldn't sleep hardly ever. He also had a close call with an explosive. Those things shook him and gave him anguish. Sometimes I wonder if God didn't allow him to die - so that he wouldn't have to go back to war. We had said since he was a little boy that he had a sweet heart. A soft, gentle heart - not that of a warrior. Then he chose his path. So my husband and I wonder - if there really is a heaven - did God let him leave the pain of this world behind and go to a place without pain. I hope so and that is what gets me through my really dark moments.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Kari C in SC

[mommyrooch]

It took me awhile to believe as you do too. At the beginning I would cry to God for taking him away. Then I began to believe that God didn't do it - He just allowed it.

 

At this very moment, my son's unit is in the Kandahar province in Afghanistan. They have lost 18 men since May. When my son was in Iraq he saw a little girl beaten brutally because he gave her a piece of candy. It haunted him to the point that he couldn't sleep hardly ever. He also had a close call with an explosive. Those things shook him and gave him anguish. Sometimes I wonder if God didn't allow him to die - so that he wouldn't have to go back to war. We had said since he was a little boy that he had a sweet heart. A soft, gentle heart - not that of a warrior. Then he chose his path. So my husband and I wonder - if there really is a heaven - did God let him leave the pain of this world behind and go to a place without pain. I hope so and that is what gets me through my really dark moments.

 

Kari, :grouphug: It is a really hard place to get to isn't it? Some people never make it there or can never find their way back. I'm greatful everyday that I finally did because as hard as it is to remember what I have lost, I believe it would be much harder if I had to live with it without God.

 

What a powerful, yet tragic story you have. I'm so sorry that you lost your son. He sounds like he was truly an amazing young man. :grouphug:

[Clear Creek]

This has been banging around in my head for a little while, and I'm still not entirely sure I even have my questions straightened out, so please bear with my incoherence and forgive me if accidentally offend. I don't mean to, truly.

 

Do you believe God answers prayers? Do you believe he (or she, or however you may refer to an almighty consciousness) pays attention and can directly intervene when he so chooses? If you do, why do you suppose he answers some prayers and not others? Small prayers and not big ones? Why do some families full of kind and caring people seem to have a great deal of misfortune that they don't deserve while others have good fortune that they don't seem to deserve?

 

TIA for your thoughts on this. I don't mind if you ramble on :D

 

 

I believe that God hears my prayers and knows the desires of my heart, but that does not mean that He will grant everything that I ask. God is not a vending machine. I can't put in a prayer and pull out a <insert whatever I want>. That would put me in control, and that is definitely not the way things work!

 

As far as the question as to why some people have fortune and others have misfortune...we are not blessed/punished in this world because of our sins or our good deeds. It is completely unrelated. No one gets what they deserve. There are orphanages around the world that are full of children who are not getting what they deserve. There are countless murderers roaming free, not getting what they deserve. That just isn't the way things work. It would be nice, but it isn't...it is all chance. Things will be peachy in heaven, but this isn't heaven. This place is meant to make us long for heaven.

 

I had a miscarriage, and it broke my heart. I had already had two healthy babies, so it was very unexpected. I was SO mad at God for taking my baby. Then I realized something. God was not mad at me, He was not trying to teach me a lesson, He wasn't trying to make me mature in some way, there wasn't some grand scheme that I couldn't see that would make it all better in the end...God used the situation for good, but that was not why it happened. Know why it happened?

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Because everybody dies. Some are old, some are young, some are somewhere in between, but everybody dies at some point. That is why my baby died before I could ever hold it in my arms. That is why my Grandpa died. That is why my sister's friend died in elementary school. None of us are so special that our loved ones will be kept from death. I can't realistically say that if God loved me then He wouldn't let any of my loved ones die...everybody dies at some point. And it always hurts, no matter how young or old they are. Like I said, the point of this world is to make us long for heaven. If I didn't believe in heaven, then I would have to admit that life is pretty dismal and any God that only had this present life for us (and nothing in the future) was a pretty sorry being. But I have faith that the best is yet to come. :001_smile:

[Ginevra]

Your statement above just made me shiver. I am so very concerned that you really think that something like the unimaginable suffering my second son when through, and survived, would somehow make your daughter's death "right" for you and would redeem it.

 

No, no, no; now I feel you're misunderstanding me. In no way do I think the undoubtedly horrible experience of battling cancer would, for you, redeem the death of Tanner. What I mean is that your second son's survival gave you hope, you said so yourself. It made you say, "Okay, maybe God does care." I have wanted - expected, even - for something like that to happen in my life. That is what I meant. That if we adopted a little girl who had been "thrown away," for example, that it would be redemptive. Here is a living child, who was not wanted, that we can give love to; it redeems the dead child that was wanted, that we could not raise. This may not be something people can really understand. It's not that anything could erase the sorrow of losing Lydia. It's just that if something lovely happened that we would not have pursued otherwise, that would feel like God cared; that would have given me hope.

 

All of a sudden, my little boy stopped crying and looked over at me with eyes that haunt me today and said in a deperate whisper "Mommy, why are you letting them do this to me?" I fell to my knees in anguish. All my little boy saw in that moment was that those people were hurting him and I was allowing them to do it. How could I explain to him that Mommy was trying to save his life. :confused:

 

:grouphug: I am so sorry; I have heard of similar things from other mothers whose young children had serious illnesses.

 

I have no illusions as to the mortality of my family. I KNOW I could lose both of my children tomorrow. My husband could easily get killed in a car wreck on his way to work.

 

Yeah, I get that. I feel the same way.

 

Perhaps you never will be but you will never find God unless you choose to make that change.

 

I agree that you have to choose to go back to God. I've lived it. It's not that I'm deciding on Christianity vs. Atheism. I believe in God. But I have doubts about the Christian tenants and the Christian understanding of God that are so extensive that at times (like now) I don't know why I strive to keep that label.

 

Well, that experience changed me dramatically more than anything else ever could. Because of not only loosing Tanner but because of HOW I lost him I became a completely different person. I no longer blindly trusted doctors. I became a beast when it came to medical issues. I would have NEVER became that kind of person had I not lost Tanner the way I did.

 

I understand this completely, but this would be true for you even if you were not a Christian. Drastic situations do hold the potential for drastic growth and change, but it does not make it acceptable to lose a child in order to learn the lesson, kwim? So, if you did not think God had anything to do with it, this would still be true. You suffered the ultimate sorrow because you didn't do things that might have saved your son. It's logical that you would be different with subsequent children's medical issues. It's completely true for my experience, too. There are things that haunt me that I brushed off in my pregnancy. I brushed them off because I never lost a baby before. I brushed them off because I did not think this or that could be an important sign that all was not well. My midwives brushed them off for the same reason. I definitely did not brush things off with my subsequent pregnancy. I got all the medical care I could possibly get. My paradigm on birth changed 100%. Now I could not care less how "natural" and "non-intervention" a birth is. I vote for living baby.

 

I'm babbling now, but what I'm saying is I don't accept the idea that God allowed me to lose Lydia so I would be vigilant in my subsequent pregnancy with Mason. If it works for you as an explanation, then - have at it; I make no judgements about what others find satisfactory to explain God. I'm just saying it doesn't work for me.

 

The thing about trust is that we trust those who continue to prove trustworthy, do we not? If you fall back and I don't catch you, why would you fall back again? That's how it feels for me. It's not only the fact of Lydia's death; there's a whole very long story about other things that make me feel that I was kicked to the curb by God - if He has any role at all. It is simpler to say He had no role at all than to say, Yes, he had everything to do with every step along the way, but he let me fall for his own "mysterious reasons" that I must accept were good without evidence. It's really just not working for me right now.

[Marylou]

Nobody (that I know of) prays, "God, if I will be a better person in the end, please go ahead and let my child die."

 

I feel like I'm rambling now, but I'm just trying to get all my scrambled thoughts down about this torturous topic that has nagged me for ages.

 

Not a better person, but one who clings more to God in trust that He doesn't make mistakes, I think many do pray that. I wish I did more often.

 

I'm very sorry about the loss of your precious daughter.

 

 

 

"Bring The Rain"

 

I can count a million times

People asking me how I

Can praise You with all that I've gone through

The question just amazes me

Can circumstances possibly

Change who I forever am in You

Maybe since my life was changed

Long before these rainy days

It's never really ever crossed my mind

To turn my back on you, oh Lord

My only shelter from the storm

But instead I draw closer through these times

So I pray

 

Bring me joy, bring me peace

Bring the chance to be free

Bring me anything that brings You glory

And I know there'll be days

When this life brings me pain

But if that's what it takes to praise You

Jesus, bring the rain

 

I am Yours regardless of

The dark clouds that may loom above

Because You are much greater than my pain

You who made a way for me

By suffering Your destiny

So tell me what's a little rain

So I pray

 

Holy, holy, holy

Is the Lord God Almighty

 

[Marylou]

This article made me cry last night.