question for EO and RC Christians (cc, obviously)

[ElaineJ]

I don't really have people I can ask this of in real life without running the risk of unintentionally confusing or alienating someone, so I was wondering if you wise women of the Hive would be willing to give me some insight on this question. I believe that Protestant, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox believers are all Christians, and therefore would have no problem going to church with, praying with or studying with anyone from any of these churches as a sister or brother in Christ. I have long been aware that this perspective is not held by all Protestant Christians, but I am recently noticing that this way of thinking might be considered incorrect and disturbing to RC and EO believers as well. Is that indeed the case? If a person joined the RC or EO church, would they have to renounce this way for thinking? I guess I'm kind of wondering if I "fit anywhere" with this belief or if I either have to change my mind on this or remain kind of an outsider in all places. I'm really not trying to "stir the pot", just wanting to hear the perspectives of others. Thanks!

Elaine

[*lifeoftheparty*]

I don't know the answer, but I feel the same way :)

[Avila]

I believe that Protestant, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox believers are all Christians, and therefore would have no problem going to church with, praying with or studying with anyone from any of these churches as a sister or brother in Christ. I have long been aware that this perspective is not held by all Protestant Christians, but I am recently noticing that this way of thinking might be considered incorrect and disturbing to RC and EO believers as well. Is that indeed the case? If a person joined the RC or EO church, would they have to renounce this way for thinking?

Elaine

 

Catholics have no issue calling other people who follow Christ Christians. We refer to them as our separated brethren: brothers and sisters in Christ who are not currently unified with us inside the Catholic Church. We would love for the entire Christian community to be unified, but unified or not, we still see and respect other believers as fellow Christians.

 

Catholics are required to attend Catholic Mass on Sunday (or Saturday vigil) each week. A non-Catholic worship service is not a Catholic Mass and does not satisfy this obligation. A prayer service or Bible study or non-Catholic worship service would be fine for me to attend, as long as those things do not interfere with my Catholic faith and are not intended to lead me away from it. As a Catholic, I am obligated to know and understand my own faith, and I am called to defend, protect and nurture it. Regularly participating in other formal services and studies may interfere or lead me away from my own faith, and therefore I choose not to participate in them.

 

Participating in personal prayer with friends is fine, and prayer is always encouraged.

[justamouse]

Where's Chucki? I think that's a many shades of gray question that I may not know so well.

[Sugarfoot]

Catholics have no issue calling other people who follow Christ Christians. We refer to them as our separated brethren: brothers and sisters in Christ who are not currently unified with us inside the Catholic Church. We would love for the entire Christian community to be unified, but unified or not, we still see and respect other believers as fellow Christians.

 

Catholics are required to attend Catholic Mass on Sunday (or Saturday vigil) each week. A non-Catholic worship service is not a Catholic Mass and does not satisfy this obligation. A prayer service or Bible study or non-Catholic worship service would be fine for me to attend, as long as those things do not interfere with my Catholic faith and are not intended to lead me away from it. As a Catholic, I am obligated to know and understand my own faith, and I am called to defend, protect and nurture it. Regularly participating in other formal services and studies may interfere or lead me away from my own faith, and therefore I choose not to participate in them.

 

Participating in personal prayer with friends is fine, and prayer is always encouraged.

 

Well said! Our priest will refer to "our protestant brothers and sisters" when speaking of other Christians.

[simka2]

I don't really have people I can ask this of in real life without running the risk of unintentionally confusing or alienating someone, so I was wondering if you wise women of the Hive would be willing to give me some insight on this question. I believe that Protestant, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox believers are all Christians, and therefore would have no problem going to church with, praying with or studying with anyone from any of these churches as a sister or brother in Christ.

I think the above statement is a bit confusing. I am not sure what you mean by it. EO pray very specific prayers, it may be a bit akaward to pray with Protestants, in the free flowing form used by many. That is not to say that EO do not pray in a freeflowing manner. They just do so at a specific time within the structured prayers.

 

The going to church bit is going to vary with the Priest. I know some who have little issue with and some who have issue. This gets tricky, one can believe that a certain branch is Christian without completely agreeing with their form of worship or theology. There are no hard and fast rules that you cannot attend a special Christmas service with your relatives, weddings, funerals.

I have long been aware that this perspective is not held by all Protestant Christians,

 

 

Why is this perspective held by some Protestants? IS it because EO and RC are not Christians? If that is where the understanding is coming from than...no, EO and RC do not believe that.

 

but I am recently noticing that this way of thinking might be considered incorrect and disturbing to RC and EO believers as well. Is that indeed the case? If a person joined the RC or EO church, would they have to renounce this way for thinking?

 

 

Which thinking? I do not renounce that my brothers and sisters are anything other than Christian. I believe that EO has a certain "fullness" to it, but I will not presume to say where God is and where He isn't. Does that make sense? :D

 

I guess I'm kind of wondering if I "fit anywhere" with this belief or if I either have to change my mind on this or remain kind of an outsider in all places. I'm really not trying to "stir the pot", just wanting to hear the perspectives of others. Thanks!

Elaine

 

Hmmm...I think you are asking more than one question here ;). I will give it a shot, but I am going to attempt to put the answers in your text to avoid confusion.

 

It is difficult to answer your question. I cannot quite tell if you are asking if we think Protestants are Christian, or if we think all theology is created equal.

 

Maybe the UU would be a better fit if it is the later.

 

:grouphug: Hopefully, someone much wiser than myself with answer you! Blessings on your journey.

[Ellie]

I don't really have people I can ask this of in real life without running the risk of unintentionally confusing or alienating someone, so I was wondering if you wise women of the Hive would be willing to give me some insight on this question. I believe that Protestant, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox believers are all Christians, and therefore would have no problem going to church with, praying with or studying with anyone from any of these churches as a sister or brother in Christ. I have long been aware that this perspective is not held by all Protestant Christians, but I am recently noticing that this way of thinking might be considered incorrect and disturbing to RC and EO believers as well. Is that indeed the case? If a person joined the RC or EO church, would they have to renounce this way for thinking? I guess I'm kind of wondering if I "fit anywhere" with this belief or if I either have to change my mind on this or remain kind of an outsider in all places. I'm really not trying to "stir the pot", just wanting to hear the perspectives of others. Thanks!

Elaine

Most non-Catholic/EO Christians would not step foot in a Catholic or EO church. They would be welcome, but they wouldn't come.

 

Someone who converted to the Catholic or EO church wouldn't "renounce" his beliefs, but he would need to embrace the doctrine of the Catholic or EO church. One of the primary beliefs would be that the bread and wine served at communion is not symbolic but is the actual Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord (EO might phrase that differently than Catholics).

 

Most Catholics (I don't know about EO) would not attend a non-Catholic service because that would imply that they were in full communion with the non-Catholic church, and that would not be the case.

 

Some Catholics do attend Bible studies that are non-Catholic. It can be tricky, though, because of the differences in doctrine. I would hesitate, myself.

 

Catholics would be happy to pray with their non-Catholic Christian friends. :-)

[simka2]

Where's Chucki? I think that's a many shades of gray question that I may not know so well.

:iagree: and Patty Joanna? Antonia? ;)

[ElaineJ]

[quote name=Ellie;3206339

 

Most Catholics (I don't know about EO) would not attend a non-Catholic service because that would imply that they were in full communion with the non-Catholic church' date=' and that would not be the case.

[/b]

Ok, I'm learning how to use the quote function, so hopefully I just bolded the part of your answer I intended to copy. What would it mean to be in full communion with another believer? I think this is probably key to answering my question. Thanks so much for your response.

 

Elaine

[Bluegoat]

Catholics, the Orthodox, and some Anglicans (and to some extent some Lutherans) have a slightly different understanding of the visible and invisible Church than many Protestants.

 

Most Protestants would say that all people and church communities who have faith in Christ and subscribe to some basic beliefs are within the Body of Christ. What connects all these groups is faith in Christ, and so all groups that have that are part of the body, though some may be closer to teaching truth than others.

 

These other groups take a slightly different view. They say that the Church has a quantifiable, visible aspect, aside from/in addition to faith in Christ. They believe that when Christ began his Church, he ordained the apostles to be bishops and priests within his Church. They would pass this visible sign of authority down through laying on of hands in ordination.

 

So to these groups, to be fully united to the Church on earth means being united to these successors of the apostles as well as faith in Christ and correct teaching of whatever are considered essentials. Just like in Christ God became united to physical humanity, or in the Eucharist God becomes physical so we can be physically united, the Church is understood to have both a spiritual and a physical aspect.

 

Generally, the EO consider their group is the only group that has this authority, Catholics would consider themselves and also the EO to some extent.

 

So while they would say that those outside the Church may be united to Christ invisibly through faith, and a real Christians, they are missing being visibly united to the physical church which is protected in a direct way from error, and also which is able to offer the sacraments such as the Eucharist.

 

As such, there could be danger in certain types of ecumenical interactions, for example of praying prayers that teach error. This is particularly a concern to the EO and some Anglicans as they have a strong emphasis of the didactic role of liturgy. Even attending a church regularly which is separated from the apostolic Church would be a bad idea, as one would be separated from the sacraments and the body of the visible Church.

 

So members of these groups are very carefully about the ways and situations that they attend other group's churches, or that they pray with other groups. It isn't totally forbidden, but it is something to be considered in a careful way.

[Crimson Wife]

My mom's family is Anglican/Episcopalian (depending on how theologically conservative or liberal they are). As a Catholic, I am welcome to visit their services but I am not to receive Communion there. That would be seen as condoning the A/E doctrine on consubstantiation (that the bread and wine are simultaneously both Christ's body & blood and their original substances).

 

Catholics view EO's differently from Protestant Christians so I don't know if there is an official ban on the Catholic side on receiving Communion in an EO church. But it's a moot point because an EO priest wouldn't allow a non-EO to receive. I've heard from EO friends that when they travel, they need to bring a letter from their priest verifying that they are in good standing to show the priest at the church they are visiting.

[ElaineJ]

Thanks for your thoughtful answer, Simka2! Yes, I think some Protestants believe that EO and RC believers are not truly Christian. It sounds like the EO church does not hold that perspective about Protestants and Catholics, then, just thinks of their theology as incomplete?

Elaine

[simka2]

Thanks for your thoughtful answer, Simka2! Yes, I think some Protestants believe that EO and RC believers are not truly Christian. It sounds like the EO church does not hold that perspective about Protestants and Catholics, then, just thinks of their theology as incomplete?

Elaine

Yes, in a very basic sense. I really like Bluegoat's post. Part of the problem is the different way RC/EO view The Church compared to many Protestant groups. So when someone who is RC/EO says they are cautious about attending a Protestant church, it isn't necessarily the same as Protestant's hesitation about RC/EO. (Please know I am well aware that there are Protestant exceptions to this. I am not trying to make blanket statements about ALL protestants)

 

It is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

 

PS, I am not going into all the Anglican/Episcipal sides of things simply because I am not well versed enough and they were not brought up by the op.

[milovany]

Thanks for your thoughtful answer, Simka2! Yes, I think some Protestants believe that EO and RC believers are not truly Christian. It sounds like the EO church does not hold that perspective about Protestants and Catholics, then, just thinks of their theology as incomplete?

Elaine

 

Theology and practice. In EO, we believe that the fullness of the faith as described in Scripture is found within the Church that Christ started, so that the fullness of the sacraments are there. As Simka said above, it's not that we think of those who are not Orthodox as non-Christian. Not at all. But we just want to be where the fullness is. Which brings us to why we don't usually go to services at other churches. Not so much because we have an aversion for them, or some such reason, but because we want to be where the fullness of Christ is given the opportunity. Hope that makes sense.

 

Good questions.

Edited October 5, 2011 by milovaný

[Ellie]

 

Most Catholics (I don't know about EO) would not attend a non-Catholic service because that would imply that they were in full communion with the non-Catholic church, and that would not be the case.

 

Ok, I'm learning how to use the quote function, so hopefully I just bolded the part of your answer I intended to copy. What would it mean to be in full communion with another believer? I think this is probably key to answering my question. Thanks so much for your response.

 

Elaine

Well, the short story would be that you agree with the non-Catholic church's doctrine. That would not be the case.

 

(To format text: Select the text, and click on the little B, I, or U up there. Voila! Text that is bold, italicized, or underlined. :) )

[simka2]

Elaine, I will tell you a story my Priest recently related to me.

 

His daughter is in Highschool and her best friend is Baptist. Many EO families do evening prayers at the family altar on a daily basis. These are structured, beautiful prayers.

 

The family would gather as was their custom and he would tell his dd's friend (who was in her bedroom with the door shut) that she was welcome to join them. She never did and would stay in the Priest's dd's room.

Eventually, he thought to himself, "How is this right? She is our guest and is obviously uncomfortable."

 

Now, they do not do the structured family prayers when she comes over. They still pray on their own, but they go out of their way to make her comfortable. Anyway, I thought it a very interesting expression of Christian charity and lack of judgment on the part of the EO family.

[Bluegoat]

My mom's family is Anglican/Episcopalian (depending on how theologically conservative or liberal they are). As a Catholic, I am welcome to visit their services but I am not to receive Communion there. That would be seen as condoning the A/E doctrine on consubstantiation (that the bread and wine are simultaneously both Christ's body & blood and their original substances).

 

Catholics view EO's differently from Protestant Christians so I don't know if there is an official ban on the Catholic side on receiving Communion in an EO church. But it's a moot point because an EO priest wouldn't allow a non-EO to receive. I've heard from EO friends that when they travel, they need to bring a letter from their priest verifying that they are in good standing to show the priest at the church they are visiting.

 

Anglicans don't really have a doctrine of consubstantiation. Some may believe that, but it isn't required, and it isn't always considered a great way to describe those people who might say they hold it. Many believe in transubstantiation, but again it is not a dogma.

 

In fact, consubstantiation was originally a term that the Catholic Church coined to try to describe Lutheran beliefs, but it isn't really clear that they, at that time, had a very clear grasp of the Lutheran teaching. Lutherans tend to avoid the term these days.

 

To be really accurate we would probably say that the EO, CC, nglicans and Lutherans all affirm the real Presence. Ideas like transubstantiation and consubstantiation, and some others, are subsets under that idea. The Catholic Church is very specific in how they talk about it, whereas the other groups prefer not to be dogmatic beyond the real presence.

[Crimson Wife]

Anglicans don't really have a doctrine of consubstantiation. Some may believe that, but it isn't required, and it isn't always considered a great way to describe those people who might say they hold it. Many believe in transubstantiation, but again it is not a dogma.

 

In fact, consubstantiation was originally a term that the Catholic Church coined to try to describe Lutheran beliefs, but it isn't really clear that they, at that time, had a very clear grasp of the Lutheran teaching. Lutherans tend to avoid the term these days.

 

Interesting. My mom and my Anglican deacon uncle always use the term to describe their beliefs.

[ElaineJ]

Thanks to all for your gracious replies and explanations. This gives me good starting places for thinking through this a bit more. I appreciate all of you joining the conversation.

 

Elaine

[aggieamy]

Regularly participating in other formal services and studies may interfere or lead me away from my own faith, and therefore I choose not to participate in them.

 

Participating in personal prayer with friends is fine, and prayer is always encouraged.

 

This really sums up how I feel. I've been invited to attend Bible studies and such with friends that aren't Catholic before but attending those never makes me feel closer to my faith. It's nothing that they do but Catholicism has such a "culture" to it that I can't really get involved in a non-Catholic religious activity without feeling like it's not for me. I don't do religious activities to just be social - I want to feel like I'm building my faith.

[8circles]

I don't really have people I can ask this of in real life without running the risk of unintentionally confusing or alienating someone, so I was wondering if you wise women of the Hive would be willing to give me some insight on this question. I believe that Protestant, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox believers are all Christians, and therefore would have no problem going to church with, praying with or studying with anyone from any of these churches as a sister or brother in Christ. I have long been aware that this perspective is not held by all Protestant Christians, but I am recently noticing that this way of thinking might be considered incorrect and disturbing to RC and EO believers as well. Is that indeed the case? In my understanding it is not the official teaching of RC/EO that non-EC/EO are not Christian, but IMExperience this will vary by person just as it does for Protestants. If a person joined the RC or EO church, would they have to renounce this way for thinking? I guess I'm kind of wondering if I "fit anywhere" with this belief or if I either have to change my mind on this or remain kind of an outsider in all places. I'm really not trying to "stir the pot", just wanting to hear the perspectives of others. Thanks!

Elaine

 

 

Most non-Catholic/EO Christians would not step foot in a Catholic or EO church. They would be welcome, but they wouldn't come.

 

 

Not questioning any personal experience you've had, but this is not my experience at all. I actually don't know any Protestant who would fit this category & most of the Protestants I know actually have attended a Catholic or EO mass/service. Even the most evangelical/conservatice ones. Generally speaking, (IME) Protestants don't hold the view that attending religious services of religious groups with whom we don't agree doesn't in any way hurt or contaminate our faith or our practice of it.

 

Having said that, I'm not sure that anyone can say for certainty what "most Protestants" believe & as such, anything I post is anectdotal.

[Ellie]

Not questioning any personal experience you've had, but this is not my experience at all. I actually don't know any Protestant who would fit this category & most of the Protestants I know actually have attended a Catholic or EO mass/service. Even the most evangelical/conservatice ones. Generally speaking, (IME) Protestants don't hold the view that attending religious services of religious groups with whom we don't agree doesn't in any way hurt or contaminate our faith or our practice of it.

 

Having said that, I'm not sure that anyone can say for certainty what "most Protestants" believe & as such, anything I post is anectdotal.

I did not attend non-Catholic churches that were actively anti-Catholic, but I have no doubt that the majority of the non-Catholics I knew over the last 35 years would never dream of going to a Catholic Mass.

 

And the text I bolded is true. With over 10,000 non-Catholic groups, it would be difficult to speak for all of them. ;-)

[Violet Crown]

Anglicans don't really have a doctrine of consubstantiation. Some may believe that, but it isn't required, and it isn't always considered a great way to describe those people who might say they hold it. Many believe in transubstantiation, but again it is not a dogma.

 

In fact, consubstantiation was originally a term that the Catholic Church coined to try to describe Lutheran beliefs, but it isn't really clear that they, at that time, had a very clear grasp of the Lutheran teaching. Lutherans tend to avoid the term these days.

 

To be really accurate we would probably say that the EO, CC, Anglicans and Lutherans all affirm the real Presence. Ideas like transubstantiation and consubstantiation, and some others, are subsets under that idea. The Catholic Church is very specific in how they talk about it, whereas the other groups prefer not to be dogmatic beyond the real presence.

That's a very good, helpful, and erudite summary. Thank you!

 

An Episcopalian acquaintance (a theology student) once observed that the place where the rubber really hits the road in distinguishing views of the Real Presence is in asking, Does your theology of the Real Presence allow you to worship the Eucharist?

[asta]

My mom's family is Anglican/Episcopalian (depending on how theologically conservative or liberal they are). As a Catholic, I am welcome to visit their services but I am not to receive Communion there. That would be seen as condoning the A/E doctrine on consubstantiation (that the bread and wine are simultaneously both Christ's body & blood and their original substances).

 

Catholics view EO's differently from Protestant Christians so I don't know if there is an official ban on the Catholic side on receiving Communion in an EO church. But it's a moot point because an EO priest wouldn't allow a non-EO to receive. I've heard from EO friends that when they travel, they need to bring a letter from their priest verifying that they are in good standing to show the priest at the church they are visiting.

 

Milovany, is this true?

 

If it is, I would find it to be so sad. I can't even fathom that people who travel would be suspected of "cheating", if that is the correct word.

 

 

a

[WishboneDawn]

Most non-Catholic/EO Christians would not step foot in a Catholic or EO church. They would be welcome, but they wouldn't come

 

I think the exception would be Anglicans but some Anglican services can be very close the Catholic ones. I've been very comfortable with the Catholic services I've attended.

[milovany]

Milovany, is this true?

 

If it is, I would find it to be so sad. I can't even fathom that people who travel would be suspected of "cheating", if that is the correct word.

 

 

a

 

I know that it happens (and I've done it myself), but it's not required in any way. It's done, I think, partly out of consideration for the priest, so he doesn't have to the go into personal interview mode while serving the Eucharist (asking if we're Orthodox and which parish we attend, etc). So, if we can, we try to let visiting priests know ahead of time that we're coming (whether by bringing a letter, or emailing/calling). If no contact is made ahead of time, we would expect to be asked some questions when we get to the chalice. Hope that made sense. It's not about catching "cheaters" as much as it's about protecting the chalice/Eucharist.

Edited October 5, 2011 by milovaný

[knit247]

Catholics are required to attend Catholic Mass on Sunday (or Saturday vigil) each week.

 

I am sorry if this is a hijack, but could you tell me if the Saturday service is called Mass or not? I just started RCIA and I have been calling the Sat. service Mass, but noticed you called it Vigil. Is there a difference, or do they both mean the same thing? Thanks so much!

[Parrothead]

Catholics have no issue calling other people who follow Christ Christians. We refer to them as our separated brethren: brothers and sisters in Christ who are not currently unified with us inside the Catholic Church. We would love for the entire Christian community to be unified, but unified or not, we still see and respect other believers as fellow Christians.

 

Catholics are required to attend Catholic Mass on Sunday (or Saturday vigil) each week. A non-Catholic worship service is not a Catholic Mass and does not satisfy this obligation. A prayer service or Bible study or non-Catholic worship service would be fine for me to attend, as long as those things do not interfere with my Catholic faith and are not intended to lead me away from it. As a Catholic, I am obligated to know and understand my own faith, and I am called to defend, protect and nurture it. Regularly participating in other formal services and studies may interfere or lead me away from my own faith, and therefore I choose not to participate in them.

 

Participating in personal prayer with friends is fine, and prayer is always encouraged.

:iagree:I really can't add anything to what Asenik said.

Where's Chucki? I think that's a many shades of gray question that I may not know so well.

I suppose I see these threads when I'm meant to see them. I was on all morning and never saw this.

 

Theology and practice. In EO, we believe that the fullness of the faith as described in Scripture is found within the Church that Christ started, so that the fullness of the sacraments are there. As Simka said above, it's not that we think of those who are not Orthodox as non-Christian. Not at all. But we just want to be where the fullness is. Which brings us to why we don't usually go to services at other churches. Not so much because we have an aversion for them, or some such reason, but because we want to be where the fullness of Christ is given the opportunity. Hope that makes sense.

 

Good questions.

I could easily substitute EO/Orthodox for RC/Catholic in the above it would describe what a Catholic feels about going to RCC.

 

I am sorry if this is a hijack, but could you tell me if the Saturday service is called Mass or not? I just started RCIA and I have been calling the Sat. service Mass, but noticed you called it Vigil. Is there a difference, or do they both mean the same thing? Thanks so much!

Mass is said every single day. Any mass said after 4p intending to count for the next day's mass attendance is called a vigil mass.

[Little Nyssa]

It's not so much about "cheating". It's that the priest needs to be sure that everyone who is receiving the Eucharist is prepared for it by a Christian life= living a life of repentance and faith. You know the verse about eating and drinking judgement on yourself. He needs to prevent that. A person should only approach for Communion from a place of deep faith and personal relationship with God. The person's own priest at their own church should know this because he knows the person, but if they are visiting the local priest won't know. Hence the letter, or, I like to call ahead & just say we'll be visiting.

 

Now, about sharing with other Christians. I, as EO, have no problem attending other Christian (trinitarian) services, or praying with friends, or even a Bible Study, and I like to. Not all EO will agree with me on that, though. I can always learn something from other Christians, I have enough humility to know that. But I don't have time for everything, and the problem is, that I find the other services to be... unfulfilling. For me, the depth is not there. So, I stick to Orthodox services because I don't want to miss anything there. Now, I searched around a LOT and belonged to several different kinds of churches, for years each, not just "church-hopping," before I became EO 16 yrs ago, so I know what I'm talking about. And, I don't want to be offensive or unkind.

 

Other Christians are welcome to visit EO churches, of course, and pray with us, but the sacraments are only for the Orthodox.

[Violet Crown]

I am sorry if this is a hijack, but could you tell me if the Saturday service is called Mass or not? I just started RCIA and I have been calling the Sat. service Mass, but noticed you called it Vigil. Is there a difference, or do they both mean the same thing? Thanks so much!

Up until the Second Vatican Council, a "vigil" meant liturgy on the day before a feast day--sometimes involving Mass, sometimes not--and more generally, it just meant the day before a feast day. Fasting was a common aspect of a vigil. Even if it involved a special Mass for the vigil, however, that Mass was not considered to be the same as the Mass of the feast day following, and so assisting at that Mass would not fulfill the obligation to assist at the Mass of the feast day.

 

After Vatican 2, the "Vigil Mass" for Saturday evenings was introduced, as a way to accommodate those whose work schedule didn't permit them to attend Mass on Sunday. That Mass fulfills the obligation for Sunday Mass attendance. Attendance at the Saturday Vigil Mass in order to fulfill the Sunday obligation is controversial among more traditionally minded Catholics, especially since the original purpose--attendance at the Vigil Mass only when Sunday Mass attendance was impossible--has quietly disappeared.

 

ETA: Fun trivia: Since a Vigil had a liturgy in its own right, you couldn't have a Vigil on the same day as a major feast day. So when you had two such days in a row, the Vigil for both was combined on the day before the first one. So the Vigil for All Saints (which is Nov. 1) and for All Souls (Nov. 2) is on the same day--Oct. 31--and that's why you get an All Souls folk celebration (e.g. Day of the Dead) on the Vigil of All Hallows (=Saints) Day.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Sharon in Austin

[imagine.more]

That's a very good, helpful, and erudite summary. Thank you!

 

An Episcopalian acquaintance (a theology student) once observed that the place where the rubber really hits the road in distinguishing views of the Real Presence is in asking, Does your theology of the Real Presence allow you to worship the Eucharist?

 

 

Ooh, good way to phrase it! My husband, like most Lutherans, is wary of using the term consubstantiation, but he will use it in discussions when needed just because it is the most accurate and simple way to explain the difference to people.

 

On the topic of Roman Catholics attending other Christian worship services, we're in a unique situation, but I have permission from my priest to participate in communion at my husband's church on three conditions 1) I understand it's not a valid eucharist 2) I receive valid eucharist from my Catholic church (basically that I'm not substituting the lutheran communion for the catholic one) and 3) I'm not causing scandal by doing so. So I take those 3 conditions very seriously and go about participating in my husband's church while being fully Roman Catholic. Some might disagree with this, but it's the advice I've been given more than once.

 

On the original question, as a Catholic I see anyone who affirms the holy trinity as a Christian, but non-Catholics would be separated brothers and sisters in Christ. There are lots of similarities so praying together personally is great and I'm even okay participating in certain worship services (Lutheran and I'd imagine Episcopal) because their prayers are not an issue, they're set prayers and fairly orthodox or so vague as to be unobjectionable by anyone. However, I do (and I think many RC's do) get uncomfortable in free-form prayer with people I don't know well or non-denominational churches where I'm not sure what they believe. Mostly I just don't want to be participating in a group prayer and suddenly realize the person speaking the prayer is saying something I can't agree with. I've lead and participated in bible studies with non-RC Christians but it does feel limited in many ways for me because I will see a great connection and not feel I can share it in a way the other people will understand because they don't hold that doctrine. I did a James bible study with several friends, mostly Baptist and Non-Denom, and it was wonderful, very affirming and encouraging and challenging, but there were verses that pertained to things like confession that really convicted me to actually go to confession and the other people didn't quite read the same thing into it, lol! Catholics believe we have the fullness of truth, not that nobody else has any truth, so I guess that's how I'd best sum up the idea of how we view our Protestant brothers and sisters.

[Teachin'Mine]

Have you ever been to an ecumenical service? Many RC churches participate in these at Thanksgiving and sometimes at other times during the year. Typically the location for the service rotates between the RC church and other Christian churches locally. Obviously it's not a Mass, but a service. And all the prayers, songs and other forms of worship are appropriate for any Christians to participate.

 

The RC Church, led by Pope Benedict, is working towards a unification of all Christians. I truly believe that this will happen some day. Prayer is so important for all people of faith and I think it's beautiful when we pray together.