Just the Messenger...You Can Drink Alchohol While Pregnant.

[twoforjoy]

Some of us cannot drink alcohol while pregnant because of our own problems with alcohol: addiction, allergies to alcohol etc. It might be safe for some moms and fetuses but not for all.

 

Of course, but that's probably the case for anything. A mom with a food sensitivity might need to completely avoid certain foods during pregnancy that other mothers can eat safely. If somebody knows that they cannot have only one drink, or that drinking in any amount will cause a reaction, then they obviously shouldn't drink.

 

The problem is with issuing blanket recommendations that are based not on the science but on a mistrust of women. That's what this seems to be. It seems like everybody aware of the research knows that 1-2 drinks per week is safe, but they are afraid to tell women that, out of fear that either women with problem with alcohol will take that at a license to start drinking or that women will think that if 1-2 drinks a week are fine, then 3-4 per day are probably fine, too.

[WishboneDawn]

Am I the only one who saw the thread title and thought "kill the messenger!"?:D

 

 

Some of us cannot drink alcohol while pregnant because of our own problems with alcohol: addiction, allergies to alcohol etc. It might be safe for some moms and fetuses but not for all.

 

Yup. That's a good point.

 

My aim was not to endorse heavy drinking or to say every mother should drink alcohol, just to express some relief that that blanket warnings I have heard about not touching it were wrong and that the 1/4 glass of wine I had at my parents wasn't going to be a devastating, life impacting event for my child.

 

As with everything, we have to apply our own reason when making the decision to have a drink. If it's an emotional issue, if there are allergies or addictions, one probably shouldn't drink.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Of course, but that's probably the case for anything. A mom with a food sensitivity might need to completely avoid certain foods during pregnancy that other mothers can eat safely. If somebody knows that they cannot have only one drink, or that drinking in any amount will cause a reaction, then they obviously shouldn't drink.

 

The problem is with issuing blanket recommendations that are based not on the science but on a mistrust of women. That's what this seems to be. It seems like everybody aware of the research knows that 1-2 drinks per week is safe, but they are afraid to tell women that, out of fear that either women with problem with alcohol will take that at a license to start drinking or that women will think that if 1-2 drinks a week are fine, then 3-4 per day are probably fine, too.

 

Most women I know do their own research and make up their own minds on these things. I read many pregnancy books and baby books but did not do every single thing listed in them. Some of the things I did were things that worked for my baby but were not mainstream: like taking my baby off of solids when he started to show serious allergies and exclusively breastfeeding him until he was 1 years old. Does any one give that much weight to all the blanket recommendations out there?

[Aelwydd]

:iagree:I can not imagine drinking while preg. WHY! is your selfishness so strong that you can not give up a couple of drinks a week to insure your childs safety. What if in 3,5,15yrs they 'decide' that they were wrong once again and the damage can never be undone. Believe me, I have seen and worked with FAS kids. Sad!

 

Ok, well, by your logic laboring women should be denied much more potent substances, such as fentanyl and other opioids. These drugs are considered "safe" to use during labor, even though there is a real risk of these causing injury or harm to the baby. I've known women and babies harmed by the use of the drugs. That doesn't change my opinion that these drugs should continue to be made available to those women elect to use pain relief.

 

I drank about a 1/4 cup of wine, mixed with ginger, a 1-2 times a week when I was pregnant with my son, to help settle my stomach. I threw up so much that I was losing weight I didn't have to spare. My doctor approved the use of alcohol and even shared the story about how his 8 month pregnant wife competed in a horse show in dressage.

 

I wasn't about to compete in a horse show at 8 months pregnant. However, I took his point that everyone weighs risk differently, and when you don't have a large body of evidence from which to draw conclusions, you go with your best judgment.

 

The is a large body of evidence that shows that heavy drinking definitely increases the risk of FAS. There is not much evidence (or little to none) to show that very limited amounts of alcohol pose a significant risk of FAS. In fact, there's more evidence to show that epidurals pose risks to baby and mother, than there is that a glass of wine a week is dangerous.

 

That leaves your own judgment. I don't have a problem with women who choose to abstain. What I have a problem with is other women making a moral judgment about me in regards to alcohol, as if I can't be trusted to make a good decision when weighing my well being against that of my baby.

[twoforjoy]

That leaves your own judgment. I don't have a problem with women who choose to abstain. What I have a problem with is other women making a moral judgment about me in regards to alcohol, as if I can't be trusted to make a good decision when weighing my well being against that of my baby.

 

I mainly worry about the unnecessary fear it causes in women. I realized, after I said I drank on two occasions total during my two pregnancies, that that was drinking when I knew I was pregnant. With my first, I had two drinks the week before I found out I was pregnant. We decided to take a few months off from trying, and I got pregnant on our first "off" month. I was in grad school and it was September, so we had a few back-to-school parties. I had a cosmopolitan at one and a beer at another.

 

I almost never drink, so I felt horrible about having drank when I was pregnant. I was extremely worried, because the message I'd gotten about drinking in pregnancy basically boiled down to "Don't do it, ever, because it will cause your child serious harm." My OB assured me that my child would be just fine, and that I could continue to have a drink or two during pregnancy and my child would still be just fine. I only had one more drink the whole pregnancy, and I was still a little worried, but when I looked at the research to reassure myself I realized that I didn't have anything to worry about.

 

Anyway, I've known other women who've had anxiety their whole pregnancy about the potential damage they think they did by having a few drinks before they knew they were pregnant. That's unnecessary stress, and if we were honest about the risks, it wouldn't happen.

[WishboneDawn]

Ok, well, by your logic laboring women should be denied much more potent substances, such as fentanyl and other opioids. These drugs are considered "safe" to use during labor, even though there is a real risk of these causing injury or harm to the baby. I've known women and babies harmed by the use of the drugs. That doesn't change my opinion that these drugs should continue to be made available to those women elect to use pain relief.

 

I drank about a 1/4 cup of wine, mixed with ginger, a 1-2 times a week when I was pregnant with my son, to help settle my stomach. I threw up so much that I was losing weight I didn't have to spare. My doctor approved the use of alcohol and even shared the story about how his 8 month pregnant wife competed in a horse show in dressage.

 

I wasn't about to compete in a horse show at 8 months pregnant. However, I took his point that everyone weighs risk differently, and when you don't have a large body of evidence from which to draw conclusions, you go with your best judgment.

 

The is a large body of evidence that shows that heavy drinking definitely increases the risk of FAS. There is not much evidence (or little to none) to show that very limited amounts of alcohol pose a significant risk of FAS. In fact, there's more evidence to show that epidurals pose risks to baby and mother, than there is that a glass of wine a week is dangerous.

 

That leaves your own judgment. I don't have a problem with women who choose to abstain. What I have a problem with is other women making a moral judgment about me in regards to alcohol, as if I can't be trusted to make a good decision when weighing my well being against that of my baby.

 

That's part of Twoforjoy's larger point too. That when we're presented with messages about what to do during pregnancy, we're not presented with the actual science, we're given a managed message meant to sway the least trustworthy of us. In effect, we're all treated like the least trustworthy ones, like children to be scared into good behaviour.

[Joker]

I didn't drink any while pregnant but I was so sick that alcohol was the last thing I wanted. My mil drank a few glasses of wine while pregnant with dh (no one told her it wasn't ok) and he is gifted (and tall so it didn't affect his growth either). I wouldn't care about a pregnant woman having a glass of wine ~ it's the ones drinking hard liquor or having a few beers that bother me.

[WishboneDawn]

I mainly worry about the unnecessary fear it causes in women. I realized, after I said I drank on two occasions total during my two pregnancies, that that was drinking when I knew I was pregnant. With my first, I had two drinks the week before I found out I was pregnant. We decided to take a few months off from trying, and I got pregnant on our first "off" month. I was in grad school and it was September, so we had a few back-to-school parties. I had a cosmopolitan at one and a beer at another.

 

I almost never drink, so I felt horrible about having drank when I was pregnant. I was extremely worried, because the message I'd gotten about drinking in pregnancy basically boiled down to "Don't do it, ever, because it will cause your child serious harm." My OB assured me that my child would be just fine, and that I could continue to have a drink or two during pregnancy and my child would still be just fine. I only had one more drink the whole pregnancy, and I was still a little worried, but when I looked at the research to reassure myself I realized that I didn't have anything to worry about.

 

Anyway, I've known other women who've had anxiety their whole pregnancy about the potential damage they think they did by having a few drinks before they knew they were pregnant. That's unnecessary stress, and if we were honest about the risks, it wouldn't happen.

 

And there are the women who have a child with ADD or some other disability and forever carry guilt, wondering if that drink of rum at Christmas caused it. And that guilt can have long term and damaging effects on both mom and child.

[ktgrok]

Most women I know do their own research and make up their own minds on these things. I read many pregnancy books and baby books but did not do every single thing listed in them. Some of the things I did were things that worked for my baby but were not mainstream: like taking my baby off of solids when he started to show serious allergies and exclusively breastfeeding him until he was 1 years old. Does any one give that much weight to all the blanket recommendations out there?

 

Yes. My sister does. She didn't eat soft cheeses, even the pasturized ones. She read that imported, unpasturized soft cheese could be unsafe, so she better avoid the pasturized domestic ones too...despite the total lack of logic. She refused to let the priest dip her communion wafer in the wine at church when 8 months pregnant. Because the 3 drops of wine on that wafer weren't safe because "there is no safe amount of alcohol in pregnancy." She spent her whole pregnancy like that.

 

She didn't handle the news that I was having a homebirth very well, to say the least :)

 

Oh well. I'm the homebirthing, loves to research everything homeschool mom and she is the by the book public school vice principal.

[Aelwydd]

That's part of Twoforjoy's larger point too. That when we're presented with messages about what to do during pregnancy, we're not presented with the actual science, we're given a managed message meant to sway the least trustworthy of us. In effect, we're all treated like the least trustworthy ones, like children to be scared into good behaviour.

 

Yes, I agree that pregnant women are often treated as semi-dependent adults, who need to be managed for their own good.

 

What's disturbing is the growing support for a legal climate that punishes women who don't make the "right choices" during pregnancy. I refuse to be reduced to little more than a walking incubator held hostage to my uterus.

[ktgrok]

Yes, I agree that pregnant women are often treated as semi-dependent adults, who need to be managed for their own good.

 

What's disturbing is the growing support for a legal climate that punishes women who don't make the "right choices" during pregnancy. I refuse to be reduced to little more than a walking incubator held hostage to my uterus.

 

that quote makes me want to kiss you!

 

As a woman that had to fight to get a VBAC, and deal with all sorts of judgement and criticism for my choice of homebirth, I agree whole heartedly.

 

thank you!

[Joker]

Anyway, I've known other women who've had anxiety their whole pregnancy about the potential damage they think they did by having a few drinks before they knew they were pregnant. That's unnecessary stress, and if we were honest about the risks, it wouldn't happen.

 

This was me! I was actually pregnant when we married and did not know. It scared me to think of the wine I had at our reception and the champagne I had on our honeymoon. I ended up with pre-term labor and thought I had caused it. It was only when I had the same problems with #2 minus the drinking that I realized the drinking didn't cause the issues. There was a lot of guilt I had to cast off.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yes. My sister does.

 

I get the feeling that even if she got the revised memo, that she still wouldn't do it. Some people make their decisions based on fear. The rest of us are more fluid in our decision making. I don't think there is anything wrong per se with the way she's doing it, though I'm sure it must add more stress to her life than is healthy;)

[Impish]

Yes, I agree that pregnant women are often treated as semi-dependent adults, who need to be managed for their own good.

 

What's disturbing is the growing support for a legal climate that punishes women who don't make the "right choices" during pregnancy. I refuse to be reduced to little more than a walking incubator held hostage to my uterus.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the idea of forced rehab for someone addicted to drugs or alcohol when pregnant.

 

Its not usually the mother that deals with lifetime consequences, but the baby.

 

Not a popular opinion, I know.

[littleWMN]

Personally, I don't have a problem with the idea of forced rehab for someone addicted to drugs or alcohol when pregnant.

 

Its not usually the mother that deals with lifetime consequences, but the baby.

 

Not a popular opinion, I know.

 

:iagree:

 

The baby - who grows into an adult, still affected (with alcohol damage anyway, not always drugs) - and the family that raises him/her.

[Aelwydd]

Personally, I don't have a problem with the idea of forced rehab for someone addicted to drugs or alcohol when pregnant.

 

Its not usually the mother that deals with lifetime consequences, but the baby.

 

Not a popular opinion, I know.

 

Impish, you're in a different country, so you may not be aware of the particular punishment I'm talking about. Mandatory rehab is one thing; convicted felony on charges of second degree murder or manslaughter with years in prison is another.

 

ETA: And some of the offenses for such punishment aren't predicated on mere alcohol or drug abuse, but sometimes choices such as refusing a c-sec, and being charged for any subsequent injury or death to the baby.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Aelwydd

[Impish]

Impish, you're in a different country, so you may not be aware of the particular punishment I'm talking about. Mandatory rehab is one thing; convicted felony on charges of second degree murder or manslaughter with years in prison is another.

I don't know how that would work, honestly.

 

Here, the fetus has no rights until it draws breath. So, no charges could be laid.

 

There was a case where a woman and her bf decided to shoot a pellet gun up through her cervix b/c they didn't want the baby, and she was almost due.

 

Baby was born with a pellet in his brain. I believe he lived...

 

They couldn't be charged with ANYTHING, b/c the baby wasn't a person under the law.

[Aelwydd]

I don't know how that would work, honestly.

 

Here, the fetus has no rights until it draws breath. So, no charges could be laid.

 

There was a case where a woman and her bf decided to shoot a pellet gun up through her cervix b/c they didn't want the baby, and she was almost due.

 

Baby was born with a pellet in his brain. I believe he lived...

 

They couldn't be charged with ANYTHING, b/c the baby wasn't a person under the law.

 

 

Here, the woman's rights to self-determination such as choosing to VBAC, or make certain dietary choices are threatened if the fetus ends up being harmed or dies as a result of her behavioral choices. There have been an increasing number of cases, like the one in PA a few years ago, where a woman arrived in a hospital in labor, and was told she had to undergo a c-section. Apparently, her baby was going to be absolutely massive (this was like #6 or something and she'd vaginally delivered big babies before).

 

Anyway, she and her dh refused, checked out of that hospital, and went to another hospital where she vaginally delivered a healthy baby. However, they found out that the first hospital had a procured an order from a judge to have her basically detained and forcibly made to undergo a c-section. She and her dh had just happened to leave before the doctors at the first hospital got the order.

 

Cases such as this are becoming increasingly more common. It's why I'm unapologetically pro-choice, and one reason (among many) why I never want to be pregnant again.

[Mom in High Heels]

My MIL had my dh 7 weeks early, and yes, they did try to stop labor by giving her what she calls "basically Everclear." :001_huh: In her case it did not work, and she ended up laboring drunk (again, :001_huh:), but I had NEVER heard of this before or after hearing her labor story until tonight. Learn something new every day! :001_smile:

 

My MIL was given alcohol mixed with..something to stop labor with 2 of her children. It worked for one, but not for James Bond, who was born a day or two later. She was NOT drunk when he was born, but she said she'd been pretty lit a day or two before.

 

Women used to drink alcohol is huge quantities, and yet, somehow the human race has survived. Even up to the mid-70's women drank (and often smoked) freely while pregnant. There are photos of my aunts with Martini's in their hands and a huge belly in front of them. My cousins somehow managed to turn out fine.

 

As far as the foods we're supposed to avoid, I asked my German OB (because I had been given a list when I was pg with Indy) and he actually laughed. He said "You Americans!" He told me to eat whatever I wanted (including soft, unpasteurized cheese!) just in moderation. I didn't restrict anything (including wine).

[Penelope]

Studies are looking for one or several specific outcomes.

 

How long do they follow these children?

 

Forget for a moment about whether light to moderate drinking causes cognitive delays, or whether there are problems detected in babies and toddlers.

 

What happens when they get to adulthood? Is there a higher incidence of cancer in these children (there is a higher incidence of cancer in adults who drink as little as one drink per day)? Are those children more likely to try drinking at a younger age? Are they more likely to become alcoholics?

 

Whether or not Europeans think something is a great idea is not my personal litmus test for whether I should do it.

 

I also think that if there is a food or substance I could not in good conscience give to a toddler, then probably I shouldn't be consuming it and giving it to my unborn baby.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Penelope

[eloquacious]

So I'm not a big drinker to begin with, and when I was pregnant with my first son, I played by the rules, with the exception of the little tiny communion cup of wine I had every Sunday. If you've got experience with those tiny plastic cups, you know what I'm taking about. 10 ml? 15 ml?

 

Anywho, being the dutiful form-filler that I am, I listed this on my intake form at the OB we didn't wind up using. The doctor (a woman) scanned my form but didn't read the back until after I left. When she did read it, a few hours later, she called my cell and didn't reach me - so she called my husband's cell to tell him that he should counsel me against drinking communion wine during my pregnancy.

 

I mean.. she HUNTED ME DOWN to tell me not to drink a tiny (teeny tiny) cup of communion wine once per week.

 

OH. MY. GOODNESS.

 

That wasn't the only reason we didn't go with her (we wound up going with a midwife, though we didn't get the homebirth we wanted), but it was certainly an incentive not to go with her.

[Abigail4476]

Until science has definitively cleared this up, and the majority of credible sources, doctors and scientists agree that moderate consumption of alcohol is fine during pregnancy, I'm of the opinion that it's better to be safe than sorry. I've always been of the opinion that I can take risks to my own person at my own discretion, but I don't take risks that put my children in the line of fire. During pregnancy, I didn't even take communion, and that only involves a tiny sip of wine. Why would I risk their health for a completely unnecessary pleasure? I avoided caffeine during pregnancy for the same reason.

 

I do feel that I have the right to weigh consequences and take risks at my own expense; I don't feel that I have the right to do the same with my children. Erring on the side of caution is part of prudent parenting, IMO.

[twoforjoy]

Until science has definitively cleared this up, and the majority of credible sources, doctors and scientists agree that moderate consumption of alcohol is fine during pregnancy, I'm of the opinion that it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

Nobody is talking about moderate consumption of alcohol. Moderate consumption of alcohol would be WAY more than the 1-2 drinks a week being discussed. But, since has cleared it up, and all credible scientific sources indicate that 1-2 drinks for week have NO impact on the fetus. Having 1-2 drinks for week is no different, in terms of outcomes, than having 0 drinks a week.

 

Why would I risk their health for a completely unnecessary pleasure?

 

Did you ever drive anywhere, just for pleasure, during a pregnancy? How did you justify the potential risk?

[eloquacious]

Incidentally, a friend was having early contractions (not Braxton-Hicks) in her fourth pregnancy and our mutual midwife told her to have a glass of wine every evening to combat it. This was much later (after week 30?) and not in the first few weeks, but just something to consider. Depending on the circumstances, there might even be advantages to drinking.

[Penelope]

nm

Edited September 24, 2011 by Penelope

[butterflymommy]

Pregnancy guidelines between the UK and the US have some notable differences, the light drinking being one of them. Another difference is that the UK guidelines recommend gaining much less weight during pregnancy (max 25 pounds I think) and not even increasing caloric consumption until the 3rd trimester, and then only by 200 calories a day.

 

Not long ago US recommendations were to increase 500 calories a day the whole pregnancy :blink:.

[Abigail4476]

Nobody is talking about moderate consumption of alcohol. Moderate consumption of alcohol would be WAY more than the 1-2 drinks a week being discussed. But, since has cleared it up, and all credible scientific sources indicate that 1-2 drinks for week have NO impact on the fetus. Having 1-2 drinks for week is no different, in terms of outcomes, than having 0 drinks a week.

 

I'm not sure I see the importance of placing a distinction between "moderate consumption" and "drinking in moderation" for the purposes of this conversation.

 

Secondly, are you sure about "all credible scientific sources indicate...."? That's a pretty broad statement.

 

Did you ever drive anywhere, just for pleasure, during a pregnancy? How did you justify the potential risk?

 

I don't really recall, but I can say with fair certainty that I didn't go many places "just for pleasure." If we did go, my husband probably did the driving, and he was very careful. I did not, however, take on unnecessary risks like: Driving long distances for vacation, flying on an airplane after my 2nd trimester, riding on rollercoasters, skiing, swimming with sharks or changing the cat litter.

 

Regardless, proving that I may have participated in something that was marginally risky to my baby does not negate the idea that moderate intake of alcohol can be risky, even if only marginally so. So it still begs the question: IF it is marginally or possibly massively risky to a fetus, why would you choose to do it, especially since alcohol is so unnecessary to our lives? We aren't talking about something that is necessary to a daily routine such as driving in a vehicle to work or to a doctor's appointment; we're talking about having a glass of [something] for the sake of pure pleasure at the potential cost of the baby's health. I don't see the justification.

[hmschooling]

I'm trying to find the research that would back this up. The studies that I can find that would point to what you're saying all seem to involve heavy drinkers. The study I referenced involved women drinking 1 or 2 drinks a week. Studies involving what you're claiming seem to involve a few drinks a day and up.

 

I suppose I left out the first trimester bit... I have friends that have adopted children who have FAS, and they know much about it. They have become very active in getting the word and facts out about the dangers of drinking while the baby is developing. I would NEVER drink during the first trimester, probably not the 2nd either.....I can see the third trimester being less worrisome. There are studies linking even less than heavy drinking in the first trimester to problems such as FAS. I have absolutely no clue where to find them. My friends may know, but I can assure you... there's enough caution there to take.

 

Would you drink while exclusively breastfeeding a new baby?

[WishboneDawn]

I'm not sure I see the importance of placing a distinction between "moderate consumption" and "drinking in moderation" for the purposes of this conversation.

 

The distinction is also for the purpose of evaluating the studies, not just in terms of how those terms are used in this discussion. Look at the studies and

"moderate consumption is usually defined as between 2-4 drinks per day. Most people here talking about "drinking in moderation" are talking about 1-2 drinks per week (edited from month, sorry).

 

This is important because if someone sees us talking about "drinking in moderation" and then starts making claims about or quoting sites that address the harm "moderate drinking" does then they aren't addressing what we are talking about at all.

 

Secondly, are you sure about "all credible scientific sources indicate...."? That's a pretty broad statement.

 

I've now been reading abstracts and looking at studies for a couple of days. All studies I've seen that show a relationship between alcohol ingestion and harm to a fetus relate to quantities ranging from "light consumption" at 1-2 drinks per day to "heavy consumption" at 5 or more drinks per day. The only studies I can find that address the levels we're talking about here, 1-2 drinks per month, find no harm. One study has been tracking children for 6-7 years. The links are in a previous post of mine.

 

Regardless, proving that I may have participated in something that was marginally risky to my baby does not negate the idea that moderate intake of alcohol can be risky, even if only marginally so.

 

True. It's the studies quoted throughout this thread that negate the idea that drinking at the levels most are talking about - 1 to 2 drinks per week - can be risky.

 

So it still begs the question: IF it is marginally or possibly massively risky to a fetus, why would you choose to do it, especially since alcohol is so unnecessary to our lives?

 

Because there is no science to show that 1 - 2 drinks per months IS marginally or massively risky to a fetus and several that show it is NOT risky.

 

If we're going to trust the science that says alcohol at certain levels is harmful we should also trust the science that says that alcohol at much lower levels is NOT harmful.

 

I posted the studies so people didn't have to take my word on this. The links are still there.

Edited September 25, 2011 by WishboneDawn

[twoforjoy]

Regardless, proving that I may have participated in something that was marginally risky to my baby does not negate the idea that moderate intake of alcohol can be risky, even if only marginally so.

 

But 1-2 alcoholic drinks per week is NOT marginally risky. It's not a tiny bit risky. It is, by all scientific accounts, not risky at all. There is zero risk.

 

There is, however, a greater-than-zero risk associated with driving or riding in a car as compared with not doing so. So I'm not sure why we vilify women who choose to have 1-2 drinks per week while pregnant--and I'm not one of those women myself--when we see nothing wrong with pregnant women deciding to go out driving any time they feel like it.

 

Most OBs, as far as I know, agree that taking 1-2 Tylenol on occasion while pregnant poses no risk. However, taking 20 Tylenol on one occasion or numerous Tylenol every day would indeed pose a risk. But the fact that 20 Tylenol could hurt the fetus a lot doesn't mean that 2 Tylenol will hurt the fetus a little; 2 Tylenol will hurt the fetus zero. That's what the research has found about drinking in pregnancy. It's not that one drink just hurts the baby a little, tiny bit, but that 1-2 drinks per week doesn't hurt the baby at all.

[WishboneDawn]

I suppose I left out the first trimester bit... I have friends that have adopted children who have FAS, and they know much about it. They have become very active in getting the word and facts out about the dangers of drinking while the baby is developing. I would NEVER drink during the first trimester, probably not the 2nd either.....I can see the third trimester being less worrisome. There are studies linking even less than heavy drinking in the first trimester to problems such as FAS. I have absolutely no clue where to find them. My friends may know, but I can assure you... there's enough caution there to take.

 

The studies showing harm, all the ones I've seen, involve levels of daily drinking. That's light, moderate and heavy. Those are not the levels most of us have been talking about. The only studies dealing with the levels we're addressing show no harm. There's certainly enough information to exercise caution but of course, all the women in this thread have agreed on that point. No one is advocating drinking at the levels that have been shown to cause harm.

 

We all have to draw our line somewhere. I'm quite comfortable drawing it at 1-2 drinks per month because several studies have drawn the same conclusion on this matter, that there is no harm in drinking at that level. If another woman's comfort level is at no drinks per month, I'm quite fine with that. But accusations that 1-2 drinks a week is somehow risking the health of a baby when the science shows that is NOT the case is something I'm not so fine with.

 

Would you drink while exclusively breastfeeding a new baby?

 

Yes. I would probably not drink much (not that I ever d) but I will no doubt be having a drink of wine at Christmas for instance.

 

Why? Because again, there is no evidence that in low levels, alcohol is harmful to a nursing baby.

 

The question, "why take the risk?" is a good one. But I have to know there's an actual risk to consider before I'll accept that the question is applicable to this situation. So far, there is none.

 

Honestly, why trust the science that says certain levels of alcohol are risky if one won't accept the science that says other levels aren't risky?

Edited September 25, 2011 by WishboneDawn

[Spy Car]

From the best I can tell, the science shows if the mother has a drink the developing fetus-embryo is having a drink too because the alcohol crosses the placenta.

 

I would not give a baby a drink. Color me crazy.

 

Bill

[WishboneDawn]

Incidentally, a friend was having early contractions (not Braxton-Hicks) in her fourth pregnancy and our mutual midwife told her to have a glass of wine every evening to combat it. This was much later (after week 30?) and not in the first few weeks, but just something to consider. Depending on the circumstances, there might even be advantages to drinking.

 

There was a time when we took the medicinal attributes of alcohol seriously.

[twoforjoy]

From the best I can tell, the science shows if the mother has a drink the developing fetus-embryo is having a drink too because the alcohol crosses the placenta.

 

I would not give a baby a drink. Color me crazy.

 

Does that mean that if a mother is having a cappuccino, the baby is having one, too? Even though research has found that moderate intake of caffeine is not harmful to the fetus, should pregnant women abstain from caffeine, since they wouldn't give their baby a latte?

[Spy Car]

Does that mean that if a mother is having a cappuccino, the baby is having one, too? Even though research has found that moderate intake of caffeine is not harmful to the fetus, should pregnant women abstain from caffeine, since they wouldn't give their baby a latte?

 

You may be unsurprised to learn that I would expose neither babies nor developing fetuses to caffeine.

 

Bill

[twoforjoy]

You may be unsurprised to learn that I would expose neither babies nor developing fetuses to caffeine.

 

Bill

 

I guess I just don't get why. If both research and anecdote/experience/history indicate that there is no adverse effect to 1-2 drinks per week OR to moderate use of caffeine, why avoid it? What is the basis for that, other than superstition?

 

And, I'm kind of a superstitious person, so I don't think avoiding things out of superstition is a terrible thing. I just think we need to admit that that's what it is, rather than acting as if it's a truly rational decision and that anybody who does otherwise is being selfish.

[Abigail4476]

The distinction is also for the purpose of evaluating the studies, not just in terms of how those terms are used in this discussion. Look at the studies and

"moderate consumption is usually defined as between 2-4 drinks per day. Most people here talking about "drinking in moderation" are talking about 1-2 drinks per week (edited from month, sorry).

 

This is important because if someone sees us talking about "drinking in moderation" and then starts making claims about or quoting sites that address the harm "moderate drinking" does then they aren't addressing what we are talking about at all.

 

 

 

I've now been reading abstracts and looking at studies for a couple of days. All studies I've seen that show a relationship between alcohol ingestion and harm to a fetus relate to quantities ranging from "light consumption" at 1-2 drinks per day to "heavy consumption" at 5 or more drinks per day. The only studies I can find that address the levels we're talking about here, 1-2 drinks per month, find no harm. One study has been tracking children for 6-7 years. The links are in a previous post of mine.

 

 

 

True. It's the studies quoted throughout this thread that negate the idea that drinking at the levels most are talking about - 1 to 2 drinks per week - can be risky.

 

 

 

Because there is no science to show that 1 - 2 drinks per months IS marginally or massively risky to a fetus and several that show it is NOT risky.

 

If we're going to trust the science that says alcohol at certain levels is harmful we should also trust the science that says that alcohol at much lower levels is NOT harmful.

 

I posted the studies so people didn't have to take my word on this. The links are still there.

 

I'll probably read them in the next day or so, at least for curiosity's sake, and the sake of being better informed. (Not planning anymore pregnancies here. :tongue_smilie:)

 

I'm not opposed to changing my view if good science supports it. The only niggling thought that bothers me is the fact that abstinence is often easier than moderation. For people--in this case, pregnant women--who struggle with moderation, abstinence during pregnancy seems like a much better choice. Sometimes it's easier to control your environment than your behavior. My exposure to people who drink has been mostly an observation of alcoholics and those who never stop with one glass of anything. I guess this leads me to struggle with trusting that anyone who drinks could really only have 1-2 glasses a week. Rationally speaking, I do know that there are those who do practice moderation when it comes to alcohol.

[WishboneDawn]

I guess I just don't get why. If both research and anecdote/experience/history indicate that there is no adverse effect to 1-2 drinks per week OR to moderate use of caffeine, why avoid it? What is the basis for that, other than superstition?

 

And, I'm kind of a superstitious person, so I don't think avoiding things out of superstition is a terrible thing. I just think we need to admit that that's what it is, rather than acting as if it's a truly rational decision and that anybody who does otherwise is being selfish.

 

This is the disconnect I'm not getting.

 

On one hand what's being said is, "the science says this so we should listen to that and not be drinking."

 

On the other hand what's being said is, "So what if the science also says that?"

 

Why bring science into the matter at all if one is simply going to pick and choose what they choose to pay attention to anyway?

[Abigail4476]

This is the disconnect I'm not getting.

 

On one hand what's being said is, "the science says this so we should listen to that and not be drinking."

 

On the other hand what's being said is, "So what if the science also says that?"

 

Why bring science into the matter at all if one is simply going to pick and choose what they choose to pay attention to anyway?

 

Hmmmm...I think it's normal to believe what you "first believed" and then be somewhat cynical about new information. When I was pregnant with baby #1, my OB told me to abstain from alcohol, cat litter, fish, and advised against caffeine. I've since read a couple of conflicting studies about cat litter, for example, one that claimed it was no longer an issue and another that claimed that it was. I haven't read anything new about caffeine, but then I haven't been pregnant for almost 9 years, so I haven't read much at all about pregnancy lately. I think I read a few months back that fish is now allowed during pregnancy in small amounts--once a week, maybe? Even so, if I were to get pregnant again, I would still abstain from all these things because I would feel so worried and guilty otherwise. That said, because of all the conflicting science out there, I don't think terrible things about women who make different [but educated] choices during pregnancy than I did. Maybe critical things, but not terrible things. :D

[WishboneDawn]

I'll probably read them in the next day or so, at least for curiosity's sake, and the sake of being better informed. (Not planning anymore pregnancies here. :tongue_smilie:)

 

I'm not opposed to changing my view if good science supports it. The only niggling thought that bothers me is the fact that abstinence is often easier than moderation. For people--in this case, pregnant women--who struggle with moderation, abstinence during pregnancy seems like a much better choice. Sometimes it's easier to control your environment than your behavior. My exposure to people who drink has been mostly an observation of alcoholics and those who never stop with one glass of anything. I guess this leads me to struggle with trusting that anyone who drinks could really only have 1-2 glasses a week. Rationally speaking, I do know that there are those who do practice moderation when it comes to alcohol.

 

Honestly, I would struggle to drink 1-2 glasses a week. :) We have beer in the house a few times a year. Wine at certain family dinners a few other times a year and hard liquor stored in the cupboard that generally gets forgotten about. Over the course of my pregnancy I've had maybe the equivalent of one can of beer.

 

I do enjoy a drink but generally just one or two. Any more and I don't like the feeling either at that point in time or the next morning (Just that little bit of fuzziness). There's just no addictive quality in it for me, no compulsion to have it more often in a week or month or to binge drink at this point in my life. I also come from a family with no alcohol addiction issues (even smoking. My dad smoked for 25 years, burnt me accidentally with a cigarette one day and quit cold turkey and still claims there was nothing to it). I should also note that I take ritalin when not pregnant. Or try to. Same issue with it...I often forget it. Chemical addictions just do not seem to be my thing.

 

Now the computer or knitting or reading...Those are a whole 'nother matter and I am only half joking!

 

I think you've put your finger on something though. Perhaps when you've had so much experience with alcohol addiction it's hard to remove the idea of addiction from your view of alcohol. I myself, coming from the other side of the fence, find it hard to imagine how someone could get addicted.

 

Some of us can hear the sirens, others are deaf. But the danger is in tying us ALL to the mast or in leaving us ALL untied. There's got to be a middle ground there where we acknowledge that pregnant woman is fully capable of restraining herself but that one needs us to not offer, "just one glass" and where we saddle neither with inappropriate guilt.

Edited September 25, 2011 by WishboneDawn

[ktgrok]

I'll probably read them in the next day or so, at least for curiosity's sake, and the sake of being better informed. (Not planning anymore pregnancies here. :tongue_smilie:)

 

I'm not opposed to changing my view if good science supports it. The only niggling thought that bothers me is the fact that abstinence is often easier than moderation. For people--in this case, pregnant women--who struggle with moderation, abstinence during pregnancy seems like a much better choice. Sometimes it's easier to control your environment than your behavior. My exposure to people who drink has been mostly an observation of alcoholics and those who never stop with one glass of anything. I guess this leads me to struggle with trusting that anyone who drinks could really only have 1-2 glasses a week. Rationally speaking, I do know that there are those who do practice moderation when it comes to alcohol.

 

Wow, really? I'm sorry you have only had that experience. I've never in my life had more than a few drinks per week, generally 1/2 a glass or a glass of wine 2-3 times a week, and that is NOT pregnant. My mom has a glass of wine every evening with dinner per her cardiologist. My Dad has a glass of wine on special occaisions or at parties. My hubby has a small glass of single malt scotch a few nights a week, and often doesn't finish it. I think moderation is what most people do. Those that can't drink in moderation probably won't abide by rules not to drink during pregnancy anyway.

[twoforjoy]

Honestly, I would struggle to drink 1-2 glasses a week. :) We have beer in the house a few times a year. Wine at certain family dinners a few other times a year and hard liquor stored in the cupboard that generally gets forgotten about. Over the course of my pregnancy I've had maybe the equivalent of one can of beer.

 

I do enjoy a drink but generally just one or two. Any more and I don't like the feeling either at that point in time or the next morning (Just that little bit of fuzziness). There's just no addictive quality in it for me, no compulsion to have it more often in a week or month or to binge drink at this point in my life. I also come from a family with no alcohol addiction issues (even smoking. My dad smoked for 25 years, burnt me accidentally with a cigarette one day and quit cold turkey and still claims there was nothing to it). I should also note that I take ritalin when not pregnant. Or try to. Same issue with it...I often forget it. Chemical addictions just do not seem to be my thing.

 

Now the computer or knitting or reading...Those are a whole 'nother matter and I am only half joking!

 

You may actually be my Canadian twin. ;)

[Spy Car]

I guess I just don't get why. If both research and anecdote/experience/history indicate that there is no adverse effect to 1-2 drinks per week OR to moderate use of caffeine, why avoid it? What is the basis for that, other than superstition?

 

And, I'm kind of a superstitious person, so I don't think avoiding things out of superstition is a terrible thing. I just think we need to admit that that's what it is, rather than acting as if it's a truly rational decision and that anybody who does otherwise is being selfish.

 

One, I'm not convinced that there is sufficient proof that exposure drugs such as alcohol and caffeine don't impact developing fetuses.

 

Two, if I would not give a drink of alcohol or a caffeine-laden drink to a baby (and I would not) why would I support exposing them to these drugs in utero?

 

I don't think this has anything to do with "superstition" so much as having common sense.

 

It is not a risk I would want to take.

 

Bill

Edited September 25, 2011 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

This is the disconnect I'm not getting.

 

On one hand what's being said is, "the science says this so we should listen to that and not be drinking."

 

On the other hand what's being said is, "So what if the science also says that?"

 

Why bring science into the matter at all if one is simply going to pick and choose what they choose to pay attention to anyway?

 

The science is that alcohol and other drugs cross the placenta. So the drugs the mother may be enjoying are acting upon a developing life in the womb as well.

 

I am unconvinced that there isn't risk of adverse harm. I'd rather not roll the dice.

 

Bill

[Aelwydd]

The science is that alcohol and other drugs cross the placenta. So the drugs the mother may be enjoying are acting upon a developing life in the womb as well.

 

I am unconvinced that there isn't risk of adverse harm. I'd rather not roll the dice.

 

Bill

 

 

No one has said there is no risk to drinking alcohol. What has been said is that there isn't enough evidence to establish a strong causative effect between very limited amounts of drinking and FAS. That's a big difference.

 

I can't speak for others, but I'm not looking to eliminate all risk. I made many choices during my pregnancy and the birth of my son that involved risk. However, I made them because they also had a potential benefit, which I felt outweighed the risk.

 

As I've said before, any drug has the potential to cross the placenta. And you don't even need it to be a drug to affect the baby. Eating too much fish (mercury), or immersing oneself in a hot tub in early pregnancy are also associated with increased risks of miscarriage and birth defects.

 

Also, again--drugs used in labor are not without risk either. These include some very potent narcotics. I'm far more leery of being given a large dose of a drug that acts primarily upon the neurological system during labor, than I am a few small drinks of alcohol per week. Especially since the alcohol is taken by mouth, and isn't directly absorbed into the blood stream the way IV meds are.

 

I'd like to emphasize that the brain of a newborn is still very much undeveloped at birth (the only way nature could solve the problem of an already stressed pelvis at capacity, and a large head, from a larger brain). So, these drugs given during labor have the potential to alter the neuro-chemical make-up of a newborn.

 

It's why some scientists are postulating that the rise of autism over the last 30 years may be caused, in part, by being subjected to large amounts of pitocin during induction and augmentation of labor. The reason why? There was a corresponding huge increase in the number of laboring women given the drug. We all know that correlation does not equal causation; however, this particular correlation is one that medical scientists are interested in studying, to determine if there is a causative effect.

 

All that's to say, it makes no sense to target one drug, and ignore completely the elective use of other, more potent drugs. I support the right of women to make reasoned, considered choices, and not to be pegged as irresponsible, dangerous, or stupid for arriving at a different conclusion than those who choose to completely abstain.

[Spy Car]

No one has said there is no risk to drinking alcohol. What has been said is that there isn't enough evidence to establish a strong causative effect between very limited amounts of drinking and FAS. That's a big difference.

 

Obviously no one would argue there are no risks to drinking alcohol (in quantity) during pregnancy—as the results are well-proven to be harmful.

 

I am unconvinced that light drinking isn't harmful as well. And that is the chance I would not want to take.

 

I can't speak for others, but I'm not looking to eliminate all risk. I made many choices during my pregnancy and the birth of my son that involved risk. However, I made them because they also had a potential benefit, which I felt outweighed the risk.

 

I'm rather risk-averse when it comes to a life that is dependent on me (or my like-minded wife) for its future well-being.

 

As I've said before, any drug has the potential to cross the placenta. And you don't even need it to be a drug to affect the baby. Eating too much fish (mercury), or immersing oneself in a hot tub in early pregnancy are also associated with increased risks of miscarriage and birth defects.

 

Yep. I would avoid mercury, lead and other toxic heavy-metals and hot tubs along with drugs.

 

Also, again--drugs used in labor are not without risk either. These include some very potent narcotics. I'm far more leery of being given a large dose of a drug that acts primarily upon the neurological system during labor, than I am a few small drinks of alcohol per week. Especially since the alcohol is taken by mouth, and isn't directly absorbed into the blood stream the way IV meds are.

 

I'm skeptical of the science here regarding alcohol not being absorbed into the blood-stream. I'm no authority on the drugs used in labor and delivery. But unlike alcohol and caffeine, these drugs have a medical purpose in suppressing pain, where if one is "suppressing pain" with alcohol one has a serious problem.

 

I'd like to emphasize that the brain of a newborn is still very much undeveloped at birth (the only way nature could solve the problem of an already stressed pelvis at capacity, and a large head, from a larger brain). So, these drugs given during labor have the potential to alter the neuro-chemical make-up of a newborn.

 

It's why some scientists are postulating that the rise of autism over the last 30 years may be caused, in part, by being subjected to large amounts of pitocin during induction and augmentation of labor. The reason why? There was a corresponding huge increase in the number of laboring women given the drug. We all know that correlation does not equal causation; however, this particular correlation is one that medical scientists are interested in studying, to determine if there is a causative effect.

 

I lack sufficient knowledge to comment. If a drug like pitocin is causing harm (and I don't know that it is, or is not) then it would be common sense to try to eliminate or reduce its use. Right?

 

All that's to say, it makes no sense to target one drug, and ignore completely the elective use of other, more potent drugs.

 

I agree that it makes no sense to target one harmful drug but give a free pass to another. That is my position.

 

I support the right of women to make reasoned, considered choices, and not to be pegged as irresponsible, dangerous, or stupid for arriving at a different conclusion than those who choose to completely abstain.

 

I support the right of those who don't think its right or well reasoned to unnecessarily expose developing embryo-fetuses in the womb to have a difference of opinion with those who do.

 

And I think a heavy burden falls to the protection of a dependent life from potential harm over the desire for a drink on the part of a mother.

 

Bill

[LucyStoner]

Hopefully this will help calm women down who find out they are pregnant and know they have already consumed some alcohol. I found out I was pregnant about 1 week after a friend's homemade beer tasting party and it nagged at me, even though my doctors assured me it was ok.

 

I am not someone with the slightest bit of a drinking problem, stopping at 1 is not hard for me at all. But I also have little/no taste for it while pregnant. With my older son, I think I had a sip of a particularly good wine my husband though I should taste for the rest of the pregnancy after the beer party (where I had maybe the equivalent of 2 beers, in small tastes). With my younger son, I toasted the results of the 2008 election with friends. So a small glass of champagne in the third trimester.

 

As for never exposing your kids to it, frankly I consumed occasional moderate amounts of alcohol while nursing and I do not feel the slightest big of concern over it.

[ElizaG]

From http://www.nofas.org/educator/ :

 

"Many people believe an 'occasional' drink during pregnancy is safe. However, the alcohol content in a 12 oz. beer equals that in a 5 oz. glass of wine or a 1.5 oz shot of liquor. An 'occasional' drink such as a Long Island Ice Tea actually contains the alcohol equivalency of four to five drinks. For that reason, no amount of alcohol is considered safe for a pregnant woman."

 

Translation: we cannot tell pregnant women that it is safe to have one drink, because someone might pour 5 shots into a single glass and call it "one drink."

 

:001_huh:

[mykdsmomy]

I have to chime in here. This is a subject that I am extremely passionate about. My youngest son has FASD. I wouldn't wish his disability on my worst enemy.

 

There is NO SAFE AMOUNT OF ALCOHOL during pregnancy. This one study doesn't prove anything. There are so many factors involved when a fetus is exposed to alcohol. It depends on the time of pregnancy (what is developing), the mother's metabolism, etc.

 

Would you give your newborn baby a glass of wine once in a while? Alcohol passes through the placenta...there is very little barrier. Why risk it? Especially when there is a possibility that your child could wind up PERMANENTLY brain damaged.

 

I will fight this issue to the death because my child was exposed to alcohol by his birth mother. We have no idea how much she drank....but whatever amount it was, was enough to damage his brain for life. Please please do NOT drink even one drink if you're pregnant.

[mykdsmomy]

From the NOFAS website:

 

How much is too much?

FASD does not just occur in children of mothers who abuse alcohol or are heavy drinkers. The latest research shows that as little as two drinks in early pregnancy or four drinks all at once (a binge episode) can kill developing brain cells.

Many people believe an "occasional" drink during pregnancy is safe. However, the alcohol content in a 12 oz. beer equals that in a 5 oz. glass of wine or a 1.5 oz shot of liquor. An "occasional" drink such as a Long Island Ice Tea actually contains the alcohol equivalency of four to five drinks. For that reason, no amount of alcohol is considered safe for a pregnant woman.

Fathers, friends and family members all have important roles to play in promoting an alcohol-free pregnancy. They can:

 

• Encourage and support the woman's decision to avoid alcohol
  
• Avoid situations where alcohol is present
  
• Make sure non-alcoholic options are available
  
• Stop drinking as well
  
• Go to medical check-ups to find out more about FASD.
  

 

Study on low levels of alcohol:

 

http://www.come-over.to/FAS/LowDose.htm

Edited September 25, 2011 by mykdsmomy