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"Torn", any help...??


rocketgirl
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I believe in the Classical approach. I believe it is my duty to educate my children. But I love and appreciate "unschooling" or the learning that happens on its own. I'm trying to write and define my homeschooling philosophy and am torn because I don't know how to do it, these are two very different ideas. My background is teaching. I taught 10 years in public school although it was not just a job for me, it is what I am. Now I teach my own and am struggling in my philosophy by these two very different ideas. I "plan" from the classical approach, but respect and encourage everything else (which might be unschooling). I love that they are learning but I also know that if I didn't plan anything my kids would still be learning. What is this "style" called and why am I torn in this way?

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Ehm... eclectic?

 

If you successfully combine these two philosophies, which can probably be as simple as realizing that learning does not stop when formal instruction does, and that "days off" can also offer intellectual stimulation, you probably don't need to feel "torn" at all :D.

 

(That sentence is far too long!)

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Maybe Eclectic? I think most homeschoolers don't subscribe to one philosophy but try to take the best from each and apply it to their own situation. That style will tend to change over time.

 

Perhaps use the classical approach as a spine but be open (and allow time) for serendipity.

 

If it makes you feel better, maybe coin your OWN term for your style...something like "classically adaptive" or "responsive/relaxed trivium" ....pr just call it "education, Wendy's way!" :D

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We did have a social group on here for classical unschoolers (or should that be unschooly neoclassical educators?). I pretty much fit into that group, and at first I felt bothered by not really fitting into any category, but now it doesn't worry me much anymore.

 

Depending on your preference, you can think of yourself as classical lite, doing basically WTM stuff but keeping the formality to a minimum to allow your kids plenty of time for more self directed stuff, or you can be unschooling but using TWTM to inspire your strewing, ie exposing your dc to everything a 'real' classical educator would but not enforcing if there are some things they're not so interested in. There are no hard and fast rules. You could decide to be classical in the mornings and unschooly in the afternoons, a la Charlotte Mason. You could hit your essential structured schooling areas for a week or two and follow it up with a week of minimal structure. I tend to use structure until it stops working, back off and let them be unschooly for a while, then swing back to a more adult directed approach when they seem ready for it (Tidal Learning).

 

You don't need to define your style in one or two words. (I call ours "a relaxed, eclectic, secular, seasonal approach to learning, with influence from the neo-classical, Steiner, and unschooling styles" :D)

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I have integrated a lot of different ideas into my homeschooling philosophy over the yrs. I am very much a minimalist in instruction w/my younger kids, yet as they get older we move more toward a classical philosophy.

 

Not to muddy the waters, but even when people use the word classical, they don't necessarily mean the same thing. For some people classical means cyclical history. For some it means following the WTM. For some it means having classical languages as their core. For me, it means adopting the Ignatian philosophy of education.

 

Here is a thread where I attempt to describe our approach (though it is always fluid and fluctuating with each child's personality and needs.) http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173293&highlight=interest-led I don't know if this is the sort of fine line balance you are seeking or not.

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I like the more structured feel of classical. It has a tangible quality where my children and I can chart our progress and hit goals more readily. That being said, I love following my children's interest and passions. I did a short blog post awhile back on learning with passion

 

I try to incorporate as much of each individual child as I can into their own personalized education while still having them develop a well-rounded and thorough education. I find that it keeps me on my toes as a teacher in a positive way. I never get bored. It's always different- even when teaching the same concept or subject.

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I'm eclectic. We use curriculum, but that doesn't mean we don't have plenty of time to explore other topics of interest. I had planned to unschool and dd kept asking me to teach her in a more formal way. It took a while for me to feel comfortable with what is working well for us. Many of the unschooling sites I had read set up a false dichotomy, if you are parent directed at all or use curriculum then you are killing your child's love of learning and autonomy. That hasn't been true for us at all. :) We are also more relaxed than some classical families. The great thing about homeschooling is that each family can find what works best for them, from very rigorous classical to unshooling.

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Well, they are definitely two totally opposite ends of the spectrum!

 

 

:iagree:

 

I think one way to approach reconciling the two is to have a skills vs. content approach to education. My plan is to be very rigorous about basic skills - reading, writing, math, and thinking, but be a lot more unschooly with content. I really don't think it matters much if we study dinosaurs instead of volcanoes or American history instead of the ancients as long as the foundational skills are really solid.

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I don't think the two approaches are necessarily at odds with each other (though I know that many may disagree). I can't tell you how often I find my children playing something that they learned in their school work--you know the stuff that I scheduled and told them they had to do before they could watch TV. If I don't fill their minds with something, they are bored. They sometimes will play nicely together or separately, but usually it ends up in wrestling, fighting, bickering.

 

And then there are certain skills that some kids find difficult to learn unless they are made to practice them. A month ago, my dd was whining about copywork and the writing involved in her spelling. Her hand hurt. It was too hard. She couldn't do it. I explained to her that she has beautiful cursive writing, but since her hands are not strong, it would continue to be hard for her until she exercised them. I promised her that if she did this work, by the end of the year, she would be able to write entire stories or letters without her hand hurting. Now she gets each done in 5 minutes each everyday.

 

There are just some things that cannot be unschooled with certain kids. Sure, I could wait until she found a reason to want to write. But some kids are going to give up without someone nudging them along and cheering them on. And there are some things that are just easier to learn in you do it within a certain age range--memorization, for example. I was always horrible at memorizing, because no one made me do and no one taught me how. Now that I see just how simple and easy it was for my dd, it just doesn't make sense NOT to do it.

 

Yes, there will be times when you will schedule something that should have been "discovered." And sometimes, you will do things that you hope will encourage discovery which will be a big flop. But as long as your academic schedule allows plenty of free time and opportunity for discovery and play, I think that eclectic is the way to go.

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Just an idea, take it for what it's worth:

 

Your post struck a chord in me, because I feel this way most of the time now. OTOH, "classical" ideas and methods appeal to me. OTOH, my experience with many real children bears out the value and necessity of the child's first-hand experience with play and work and life.

 

What seems to help so far is to fully plan a classical curriculum and then apply a gentle pressure (on myself) in that direction. To have the material lined-up, to know what I'd like to do, to be prepared -- all this helps me to move in what I consider to be the best direction.

 

BUT... I take the journey day by day. We are not soldiers, we are a family. The girls are my students, but they are my daughters first, and I am their mother. There are days when it is simply best to be in the moment... and we are learning to live, not just do math facts.

 

We begin the school work when we are ready to go, and we end the school work when we've done enough. I let my heart guide me in this, more than any schedule or chart. I'm not saying that we never, ever "push" (we do, at times), but I don't make a regular habit of exhausting these young students with too much focus on academic seat work. "That's it, you're done." And then we move on to the rest of our lives.

 

At this point, the results of being ready AND relaxed have impressed me. We are flexible enough to accommodate my husband's completely haphazard work schedule, but diligent enough to make solid, steady progress. We can get down to business (I'm talking about a first grader, though). ;) But we can also take in the opportunities of life -- we travel, explore, rest, play, create, work, read, investigate, exercise, bond with each other and grandparents, serve in our community, and wonder.

 

IMO, a strictly rigid approach to "classical education" can beat the wonder out of it in a minute. If I strapped that load on my back every morning, it would exhaust me. I know it would burn out my children. I don't see the sense in "pouring it into them," if it hardens like concrete. Besides, we're in this for the long haul, so I'm pacing myself in these early years. :D

 

We are not prideful that we have chosen a classical pathway, nor are we trying to prove how brilliant the little geniuses really are. But because we do work consistently (enough) and because what we work on is rich and good, we are proud of what we accomplish and can honestly say that the learning brings joy and purpose. For example, my children are thrilled to be learning to write, because they love to write notes to their grandparents. Their love for their grandparents has developed from time spent together, and this love for people propels their enthusiasm for writing. So, I think there is a balance. I disagree that classical + natural learning approaches are polar opposites. Actually, I think that "classical" and "natural/relaxed" are complementary. It's a winning combination for us so far. HTH.

Edited by Sahamamama
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Just an idea, take it for what it's worth:

 

Your post struck a chord in me, because I feel this way most of the time now. OTOH, "classical" ideas and methods appeal to me. OTOH, my experience with many real children bears out the value and necessity of the child's first-hand experience with play and work and life.

 

What seems to help so far is to fully plan a classical curriculum and then apply a gentle pressure (on myself) in that direction. To have the material lined-up, to know what I'd like to do, to be prepared -- all this helps me to move in what I consider to be the best direction.

 

BUT... I take the journey day by day. We are not soldiers, we are a family. The girls are my students, but they are my daughters first, and I am their mother. There are days when it is simply best to be in the moment... and we are learning to live, not just do math facts.

 

We begin the school work when we are ready to go, and we end the school work when we've done enough. I let my heart guide me in this, more than any schedule or chart. I'm not saying that we never, ever "push" (we do, at times), but I don't make a regular habit of exhausting these young students with too much focus on academic seat work. "That's it, you're done." And then we move on to the rest of our lives.

 

At this point, the results of being ready AND relaxed have impressed me. We are flexible enough to accommodate my husband's completely haphazard work schedule, but diligent enough to make solid, steady progress. We can get down to business (I'm talking about a first grader, though). ;) But we can also take in the opportunities of life -- we travel, explore, rest, play, create, work, read, investigate, exercise, bond with each other and grandparents, serve in our community, and wonder.

 

IMO, a strictly rigid approach to "classical education" can beat the wonder out of it in a minute. If I strapped that load on my back every morning, it would exhaust me. I know it would burn out my children. I don't see the sense in "pouring it into them," if it hardens like concrete. Besides, we're in this for the long haul, so I'm pacing myself in these early years. :D

 

We are not prideful that we have chosen a classical pathway, nor are we trying to prove how brilliant the little geniuses really are. But because we do work consistently (enough) and because what we work on is rich and good, we are proud of what we accomplish and can honestly say that the learning brings joy and purpose. I think there is a balance. I disagree that classical + natural learning approaches are polar opposites. Actually, I think that "classical" and "natural/relaxed" are complementary. It's a winning combination for us so far. HTH.

 

BEAUTIFULLY, beautifully stated. Thank you.

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Just an idea, take it for what it's worth:

 

Your post struck a chord in me, because I feel this way most of the time now. OTOH, "classical" ideas and methods appeal to me. OTOH, my experience with many real children bears out the value and necessity of the child's first-hand experience with play and work and life.

 

What seems to help so far is to fully plan a classical curriculum and then apply a gentle pressure (on myself) in that direction. To have the material lined-up, to know what I'd like to do, to be prepared -- all this helps me to move in what I consider to be the best direction.

 

BUT... I take the journey day by day. We are not soldiers, we are a family. The girls are my students, but they are my daughters first, and I am their mother. There are days when it is simply best to be in the moment... and we are learning to live, not just do math facts.

 

We begin the school work when we are ready to go, and we end the school work when we've done enough. I let my heart guide me in this, more than any schedule or chart. I'm not saying that we never, ever "push" (we do, at times), but I don't make a regular habit of exhausting these young students with too much focus on academic seat work. "That's it, you're done." And then we move on to the rest of our lives.

 

At this point, the results of being ready AND relaxed have impressed me. We are flexible enough to accommodate my husband's completely haphazard work schedule, but diligent enough to make solid, steady progress. We can get down to business (I'm talking about a first grader, though). ;) But we can also take in the opportunities of life -- we travel, explore, rest, play, create, work, read, investigate, exercise, bond with each other and grandparents, serve in our community, and wonder.

 

IMO, a strictly rigid approach to "classical education" can beat the wonder out of it in a minute. If I strapped that load on my back every morning, it would exhaust me. I know it would burn out my children. I don't see the sense in "pouring it into them," if it hardens like concrete. Besides, we're in this for the long haul, so I'm pacing myself in these early years. :D

 

We are not prideful that we have chosen a classical pathway, nor are we trying to prove how brilliant the little geniuses really are. But because we do work consistently (enough) and because what we work on is rich and good, we are proud of what we accomplish and can honestly say that the learning brings joy and purpose. For example, my children are thrilled to be learning to write, because they love to write notes to their grandparents. Their love for their grandparents has developed from time spent together, and this love for people propels their enthusiasm for writing. So, I think there is a balance. I disagree that classical + natural learning approaches are polar opposites. Actually, I think that "classical" and "natural/relaxed" are complementary. It's a winning combination for us so far. HTH.

 

:001_wub: This post.

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I don't find these philosophies antithetical to each other at all. Classical ed is filling the kids tool-box with the skills and content they need to do what they are called to do in life. "True" unschooling is about giving the kids the tools and skills they need to follow thier passions (calling?) well and with intentionality.

I do see that unschooling has taken some turns since Holt's envisioned it a couple of decades ago. How I have seen it implemented is a poor substitute for what it can truly be (read Holt, Llewllyn, the Colfax's, Shelton, etc) and oftentimes is just an excuse for neglectful, slothful parenting and endorses a sense of entitlement and lawlessness in the hearts of the kids (I'm talking about MY observations here, so please, no flames).

That being said, I think both pedagogies fall under the same vision- empowering the student with the tools and resources that they need to accomplish their call/vision in life.

In fact, I just posted under a blog meme "The most inspirational homeshcooling book you've read" both TWTM and The Way They Learn."

You might also check out "How to Create a Life Style of Learning" which is really what we are trying to do with our own educational piece of the pie.

 

I incorporate both classical and unschooling philosophies as I've created my educational pedagogy. (though maybe I need to add to this becasue I've been thinking about this very question all year long!) We work hard and play hard. I am a findcoolthings4mykids2dofool. They are all interested in radically different things and I hope to equip them and train them to live fully and with purpose.

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That being said, I think both pedagogies fall under the same vision- empowering the student with the tools and resources that they need to accomplish their call/vision in life.

 

We work hard and play hard. I am a findcoolthings4mykids2dofool. They are all interested in radically different things and I hope to equip them and train them to live fully and with purpose.

 

I like these, LL! We work diligently and we play passionately... and we sleep like logs at the bottom of the sea. :D

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Sahamamama said it perfectly!!!

 

 

I feel like I could have written your (OP) post, down to being a former teacher! I swayed from one end of the spectrum to the other last year before I finally found balance. For us, planning is also key. I follow TWTM model and make weekly goals to keep us on track to finish curriculum at the end of the year. But we do so. much. more! My girls go off on all kinds of tangents. But the beauty of homeschooling is that we have TIME to do all of that, without sacrificing our regularly scheduled programming. :) I don't over plan and I *try* not to over schedule. It's a work in progress.

 

I finally had to sit down and ask myself what my goals are for my children, what their goals are and might develop into, and where I see them in 10 years. For our family it means college, a rock solid education, and good SAT scores so they will have as many choices as possible. For us, this means we'll have curriculum and a plan. It's just how it is. It's fine with me that other families have different goals or different ideas about how to reach those goals. We do what works for us.

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I'm drawn to LCC & CM for those reasons. It helps me to pare down my plans to something DOABLE while still giving my kids a childhood. Make sure to expose them to the best , read a LOT and spend lots of time outside. Plan to have afternoons free. Doesn't always work (as I said, I loooove to plan big stuff), but that's the goal.

 

Oh, and remind myself that if I want to read all the Great Books and learn 5 languages I can, but not to force that on my kids, because God may have a different plan for them.

 

I call myself LCC with a big CM twist.

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I have integrated a lot of different ideas into my homeschooling philosophy over the yrs. I am very much a minimalist in instruction w/my younger kids, yet as they get older we move more toward a classical philosophy.

 

Not to muddy the waters, but even when people use the word classical, they don't necessarily mean the same thing. For some people classical means cyclical history. For some it means following the WTM. For some it means having classical languages as their core. For me, it means adopting the Ignatian philosophy of education.

 

Here is a thread where I attempt to describe our approach (though it is always fluid and fluctuating with each child's personality and needs.) http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173293&highlight=interest-led I don't know if this is the sort of fine line balance you are seeking or not.

Not the OP, but thank you. I always enjoy your posts. For someone who's surrounded by small people, they're like a faint beacon of light somewhere far off in the distance. ;)

 

I have TWTM and have found it helpful, but like several posters here I have some different ideas about classical education. For one thing, I think it tends to overemphasize the importance of written texts in "training the mind." Even from a Christian perspective, we know that the Word is not synonymous with the written Bible (John 1:1). We learn with all our senses, and most of the important communication in human history has been through speech, not writing. Traditional classical education in both ancient and medieval times was conducted largely through oral dialogue. But I get the sense that many classically oriented homeschoolers define their goals for education largely in terms of reading books and writing essays.

 

In practical terms, schooling in the ancient world started later, and it looked different. For primary aged children in classical Greece, most of their time was spent on sports and music lessons. When reading A History of Education in Antiquity, I was struck with the realization that the pedagogue of ancient times was pretty much analogous to the modern soccer mom. :auto:

 

To me, the major flaw of "unschooling" in the early years is that it's heavily dependent on the environment. Our family does not live in pastoral Greek splendor. There are no bards singing Homer at our dinner parties. Nor do we have a medieval monastery down the road. So I'm finding that I have to be intentional about supporting my children's sensory and cultural development, starting pretty much from infancy.

 

As far as using curriculum, I'm pretty much in line with what 8FillTheHeart is describing, except that we plan to teach Latin along with the three R's and religion. We are very informal for history and science. I think it would be better if the children spent even less time on those subjects, and more time outdoors and enjoying the arts, but I have to face my own limitations as a mother of several young children. I'm sure we would manage to get out of the house more if we had slaves. As it is, I'm the only pedagogue around here. :tongue_smilie:

Edited by Eleanor
hmm, that didn't come across the way I intended
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Guest submarines

I really appreciate this thread. We started out Waldorf, then moved towards Unschooling, now I'm interested in classical, and how to synthesize these approaches into a more or less coherent (or not :lol:) philosophy of learning.

 

I will be rereading this thread again. So much of insight.

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Just an idea, take it for what it's worth:

 

Your post struck a chord in me, because I feel this way most of the time now. OTOH, "classical" ideas and methods appeal to me. OTOH, my experience with many real children bears out the value and necessity of the child's first-hand experience with play and work and life.

 

What seems to help so far is to fully plan a classical curriculum and then apply a gentle pressure (on myself) in that direction. To have the material lined-up, to know what I'd like to do, to be prepared -- all this helps me to move in what I consider to be the best direction.

 

BUT... I take the journey day by day. We are not soldiers, we are a family. The girls are my students, but they are my daughters first, and I am their mother. There are days when it is simply best to be in the moment... and we are learning to live, not just do math facts.

 

We begin the school work when we are ready to go, and we end the school work when we've done enough. I let my heart guide me in this, more than any schedule or chart. I'm not saying that we never, ever "push" (we do, at times), but I don't make a regular habit of exhausting these young students with too much focus on academic seat work. "That's it, you're done." And then we move on to the rest of our lives.

 

At this point, the results of being ready AND relaxed have impressed me. We are flexible enough to accommodate my husband's completely haphazard work schedule, but diligent enough to make solid, steady progress. We can get down to business (I'm talking about a first grader, though). ;) But we can also take in the opportunities of life -- we travel, explore, rest, play, create, work, read, investigate, exercise, bond with each other and grandparents, serve in our community, and wonder.

 

IMO, a strictly rigid approach to "classical education" can beat the wonder out of it in a minute. If I strapped that load on my back every morning, it would exhaust me. I know it would burn out my children. I don't see the sense in "pouring it into them," if it hardens like concrete. Besides, we're in this for the long haul, so I'm pacing myself in these early years. :D

 

We are not prideful that we have chosen a classical pathway, nor are we trying to prove how brilliant the little geniuses really are. But because we do work consistently (enough) and because what we work on is rich and good, we are proud of what we accomplish and can honestly say that the learning brings joy and purpose. For example, my children are thrilled to be learning to write, because they love to write notes to their grandparents. Their love for their grandparents has developed from time spent together, and this love for people propels their enthusiasm for writing. So, I think there is a balance. I disagree that classical + natural learning approaches are polar opposites. Actually, I think that "classical" and "natural/relaxed" are complementary. It's a winning combination for us so far. HTH.

 

:iagree: Very well said.

 

In our home, this blend of classical and unschooling (or structured and unschooling--ish) looks like this: Mon-Thurs morn is very structured and focused on the 3 Rs (with logic and gym thrown in; sound mind, sound body and all that). Afternoons and Fridays are for "everything else", and vary in how much prep-work and structure there is. And once every 5-6 weeks we take a week off (year-round schooling) and do things like travel, full day field trips, a whole day of art, or science experiments, or gardening, or hiking in the mountains, or whatever. Or if there was a topic or idea that came up in the previous few weeks of lessons but we didn't have time to pursue it in depth, we will now. And according to my children--and I would have to agree, "this is our best homeschooling year ever!" :D

 

It takes a while to find your groove, IME. And it's not just classical and unschooling (a la Holt) that have inspired my educational philosophy: there's elements of Mason and Montessori and others too. It's like an expression I saw once: "Pluck a feather from each passing goose, but follow no one absolutely."

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  • 1 month later...
In our home, this blend of classical and unschooling (or structured and unschooling--ish) looks like this: Mon-Thurs morn is very structured and focused on the 3 Rs (with logic and gym thrown in; sound mind, sound body and all that). Afternoons and Fridays are for "everything else", and vary in how much prep-work and structure there is. And once every 5-6 weeks we take a week off (year-round schooling) and do things like travel, full day field trips, a whole day of art, or science experiments, or gardening, or hiking in the mountains, or whatever. Or if there was a topic or idea that came up in the previous few weeks of lessons but we didn't have time to pursue it in depth, we will now. And according to my children--and I would have to agree, "this is our best homeschooling year ever!" :D

 

It takes a while to find your groove, IME. And it's not just classical and unschooling (a la Holt) that have inspired my educational philosophy: there's elements of Mason and Montessori and others too. It's like an expression I saw once: "Pluck a feather from each passing goose, but follow no one absolutely."

 

This sounds so much like our philosophy of homeschooling! I am moving more toward the year round with a week or so off here and there for more exploration.

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:iagree:

 

I think one way to approach reconciling the two is to have a skills vs. content approach to education. My plan is to be very rigorous about basic skills - reading, writing, math, and thinking, but be a lot more unschooly with content. I really don't think it matters much if we study dinosaurs instead of volcanoes or American history instead of the ancients as long as the foundational skills are really solid.

 

This is EXACTLY how I feel. I am very structured on the skill subjects. The content subjects I am not nearly as worried about and would let me kids lead on those.

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I think one way to approach reconciling the two is to have a skills vs. content approach to education. My plan is to be very rigorous about basic skills - reading, writing, math, and thinking, but be a lot more unschooly with content. I really don't think it matters much if we study dinosaurs instead of volcanoes or American history instead of the ancients as long as the foundational skills are really solid.

 

A few here have mentioned this concept and I love it. Classical instruction for the 3R's and unschooling history and science.

 

We have found Charlotte Mason a nice mix of skill-building and fun learning as well. I started out classical and morphed into CM with touches of classical and Waldorf. I agree that different philosophies of education can complement each other very well.

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I "plan" from the classical approach, but respect and encourage everything else (which might be unschooling). I love that they are learning but I also know that if I didn't plan anything my kids would still be learning. What is this "style" called and why am I torn in this way?

 

I'm not sure what the problem is. Just because an educator is pretty intense when it comes to basic skill subjects doesn't mean that he or she can't encourage a child's interest in things that are not on the schedule for the day. (Note that I wouldn't allow an interest in dinosaurs to trump our science focus, and I would not turn it into a "unit" study. That would take all the fun out of it.) I'd call that a common sense classical approach. Currently the boys just call it fun.

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I :001_wub: this thread!

 

I'm still new to this and still figuring out where my philosophy lies. At this point, there are certain skills (math and phonics, handwriting) that I insist on DD doing a certain amount each school day (just a few minutes of each, at this age). With other subjects (science, history, read-alouds), I feel more comfortable taking a more relaxed approach and kind of going with the flow.

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