Is VP a year ahead?

[Lux Et Veritas Academy]

I just got my catalog, I wanted to start my younger children on their program 2nd grade and K- But it seems that they are already behind- do they work a year ahead? Or are we just not that advanced?:confused:

[St. Theophan Academy]

Well - depends on who you ask :) They would tell you the rest of us are behind. (I am not being ugly, they really have written in their newsletter about how most of us homeschoolers are behind the curve) My opinion is that at the early grades they are a bit too advanced in areas.

[Handmaiden]

Well, some of the books VP recommends in 3rd grade are listed as Jr. High in other programs.

[tnmomofboys]

I received my catalog yesterday and thought we were doing "fine" and then I noticed we are a year behind! Stress!! But then I realized that we have doing a pace that suits us well without going overboard. So, I prefer to look at it like this, they are a year ahead. LOL. I do LOVE their catalog!

[angela in ohio]

They are a rigorous curriculum, on par with what is done in classical Christian schools. There is not really any year ahead or behind, just different choices in pacing. Many put them down for it, but I am thankful that there are so many choices for homeschoolers.

 

If you are coming from another curriculum, you may have some catching up to do, though, yes.

[Julie Herbster]

This thread is interesting...We've done VP Bible, history, and literature all along, and I've never "felt" ahead or behind anyone else. I do think that VP's Phonics Museum is not as rigorous as, say, A Beka. We've always used Phonics Pathways instead (I do not like the VP readers). My dc have been fine with the literature recommendations for the most part. One selection that seemed to be a bit above ds this last year is The Railway Children (2nd grade).

 

VP recommends Shurley grammar; we've always used Rod and Staff. For Latin, we've done just fine with PL and LC.

[Another Lynn]

I think it depends on how you look at it. They don't actually start history until 2nd grade and then they take longer to go through it. So they really only cycle through history twice - if you count omnibus as a history program - I'm not sure if you get enough history from it or not. Plus if you look at their "modern" history cards - they are all American. Do they cover modern world history? not sure.

 

Plus, I heard (and can't even remember where so I don't know if this is true) that their actual school does many selections as read alouds. Which is totally acceptable - but don't get the mistaken idea that all their students are reading all those books on their own. Plus, many times it appears they just put the book at the appropriate time period historically whether it fits the level or not (which again makes me think they are reading aloud some).

 

Now I love the catalog too, but it never appeals to me as something to implement in my home. They certainly do know how to write some appealing descriptions! I used one of their recommendations for writing paragraphs and I've used their history cards in conjunction with Classical Conversations. I sometimes wonder if using all their stuff would be dry as dust. (sorry if that was too harsh!)

 

Now OhE or someone else can rebut my speculations and I won't take it personally! (well, maybe a little - I *am* 8+ mos preggo)

[OnTheBrink]

IMHO, I think they move too fast with history and the readers. What I mean is, sometimes the books they offer are too mature for the age. For example, in their third grade list of books for history, they list a text that was really written for upper elementary/ junior high level. I have a child who's working at a grade level ahead of her ps peers, and VP, overall, is ahead of that. However, they do spend more time on each time period, which I happen to like.

 

We don't use their program, per se, but I do like to pick and choose readers and read alouds from their lists, as they have a great selection of historical readers that fit with the history era they're studying.

 

So, I ignore their "grade levels" and look at the time in history we're on and pick books based on that.

[mommaduck]

If you look at their scope and sequence (now offered on their site), they list what is used, what is kept in the classroom for use, etc. We used VP one year and it simply did not approach things in the manner my children learn, and one of my children is accelerated. What they offer in their catalog makes sense if you ignore the grade levels. Many hsing families do not use their items in order or will cycle through something more than once before heading into upper levels. Or they will have a slower/advanced reader than the stated "level", thus more of an offering range. If you speak with them on the phone, they will tell you the idea is to put together a program that suits YOUR child. As you notice they will offer quite a few offerings on Latin even, but you are not expected to use it all; they are options. :)

 

(I personally like their catalog for ideas LOL!)

[mamato3 all-boy boys]

What I mean is, sometimes the books they offer are too mature for the age. For example, in their third grade list of books for history, they list a text that was really written for upper elementary/ junior high level.

 

Interesting that you thought this. I was looking through the catalog, too, and wondered the same thing to myself.

 

I've actually been thinking a lot about this since our annual portfolio review last week (WhooHoo! We passed!). I was speaking to our evaluator and commenting that I have enjoyed our US history read alouds immensely -- I think they are of great quality. But at the same time, I am beginning to wonder if they are just too much for my son. He is a bright boy, but I think that some of the read alouds that go along with said curriculum are just not appropriate for us. In a few years, they will be spot on, but right now, there are other books that ds would enjoy that might give him the same feel for the time period with the secondary love stories and mature themes that are a part of the book. I want him to love literature, love reading. But, I don't want him to see a previously read aloud book and say, "Eew, I remember mom reading this."

 

I'm still mulling this all over, so forgive me if I sound like a loon:D. I think I'm just "coming into my own" and grasping the full picture of what homeschooling is to us and how I envision it progressing through the various stages we'll pass through. No curriculum is a perfect fit for every family, and I think I'm just seeing how I need to tweek stuff even more to fit our family.

[G5052]

and my children both "accelerated" in most subjects. There are some books they list that are just plain NOT children's books IMHO.

 

Their math is also paced to have the child end up in calculus their senior year, which is not appropriate for many 17-18 y.o. students. Even as a professor and math person myself, I'm not worried at all about achieving that. My older one will turn 18 after he graduates from h.s. unless we hold him back, and I am not putting him into math he's not ready for, period.

[8filltheheart]

I'm sorry.....but I laughed when I read your post. Be assured......it is impossible to be behind as a rising 2nd grader and Ker. :)

 

That said.....I would never use VP materials even if I was a Protestant. I have totally different educational objectives/values. ;)

[Another Lynn]

I'm sorry.....but I laughed when I read your post. Be assured......it is impossible to be behind as a rising 2nd grader and Ker. :)

 

That said.....I would never use VP materials even if I was a Protestant. I have totally different educational objectives/values. ;)

 

Would you like to say more about VP's education objectives/values and your own? I would love to be able to "put my finger on" what aspects of VP are appealing to me and which are not. Could you do my thinking for me? (Do you feel sorry for me if I tell you a woman's brain shrinks during the third trimester?):tongue_smilie:

 

:bigear:

[PeterPan]

Since someone mentioned me, I thought I'd join in. Hopefully I'll be commenting on things in context, not misunderstanding. In any case, here are some ramblings.

 

Yes, in their lit classes in the school they read the selections aloud together and discuss. It's a full period class and something they take very seriously. I didn't quite "get" it until I thought of it in light of SL and comments Pudewa made at the convention on linguistic development. I think sometimes simple things have value we don't perceive till we try them, kwim?

 

On the dry as dust, well, lol, I suppose that all depends. The VP materials are typically very spartan and only get really fleshed out and made interesting if *you* put in the effort or if you buy their Scholars lessons. Remember these are materials being taught by the authors, by qualified, knowledgeable teachers who like their subjects and put a lot of effort into making them interesting and vibrant in the class setting. They add songs, games, projects, all sorts of stuff. If you want materials that have tons of that already fleshed out, buy something else. There's some in VP, just not a ton.

 

History books in the catalog. Well you have two things going on there. VP history is meant to cover a spread of ages and the books are marked for upper or lower than the target grade. Also though, VP has a bit of stomach that some people don't have for dry spines in small doses. Doesn't seem to bug my dd.

 

I'll come back to the accelerated issue in a minute.

 

On the question of hitting read alouds too early in SL or whatever, that can happen easily, but I wouldn't sweat it. If it really went over his head, he'll probably just forget it. Odds are, it will just be vaguely familiar when he rereads the book himself. I wouldn't sweat it.

 

VP's educational approach stems from their theology. I may not be recapping well, but the gist was needing to reclaim the culture and you do that by excelling in it. So their stated goal, as I heard it in the Detweiler lecture I listened to, is to cover "high school" age material sooner and get them into college level material earlier. I myself have wondered whether this is wise or practical, encouraging thought before they have a strong foundation of knowledge, life experiences, and maturity on which to base that thought, etc. In any case, that is their stated ambition.

 

Now as far as being accelerated, I can't say because for us the recommendations tend to be behind, sorry. However, I really and truly don't see how a K5er and 2nd grader can be behind, as momof7 said. They AREN'T behind. Kids at that age have a HUGE spread of what is normal and they really have to just proceed at their own developmental pace. When I talked with the people at VP and asked about the non-average kids, they said some kids at their school need tutors and some need extra material and challenges. Kids just VARY. Just because something takes a lot of time (finger time, writing time, memorization time), doesn't mean it's actually stimulating or going to vibrate their souls.

 

I have to go. VP for us has been a framework that we can adapt to make it what we want. That's why I use it. You should never look at their progression or that in WTM and feel you're "behind" or guilt-trip yourself. Each dc has his own timetable and progression. Pick a sequence of skills to follow and move your dc forward diligently at his own pace. That's all you can do. He's not behind, compared to himself, if you're being diligent. What I wouldn't want to endorse is slacking in the name of not comparing. We NEED to have standards and see that goals and progressions exists. But we don't use that to call our students bad, only to see the next step and move forward diligently.

[Another Lynn]

As the one who mentioned you, I would like to thank you for correcting me gently! Your comments make a lot of sense and come from experience and direct knowledge! (Where I was totally speculating!)

 

Thanks!:thumbup:

[8filltheheart]

Would you like to say more about VP's education objectives/values and your own? I would love to be able to "put my finger on" what aspects of VP are appealing to me and which are not. Could you do my thinking for me? (Do you feel sorry for me if I tell you a woman's brain shrinks during the third trimester?):tongue_smilie:

 

 

I'm really tired this morning and in a hurry, so I am going to reply with trite cliches, ok??

 

My view of education, especially during the younger yrs, is to light the fire. I want my kids to explore, question, investigate, etc. They do very little seat work. They do very little memorization (I know......classical heresy!!) I could careless if my kids can identify what yr x happened until they hit late elementary or middle school. Unless you review constantly, they will forget everything they have learned as far as dates, names, etc.

 

VP is like filling the bucket. They focus on memorization and lots of academics. The kids can repeat a lot of data.

 

Two fundamentally opposing views of primary and early elementary ed.

 

HTH

[Mommyfaithe]

1. If YOU want to get a good idea of what to teach:

hence Streams of Civilization is NOT for a 2cnd grader....it is for Teacher/ Mom.

 

 

2. If you are using their program as a multi-level history program....I have used their year 5 & 6 with that age level...along with high schoolers....Omnibus wasn't available then.

 

3. So you can pick and choose which ones you want ...or do not want to read.

 

 

Do not expect to read everything! Do not expect to do every worksheet either...some of those are for older kids too.

 

HTH~~

Faithe

[Another Lynn]

I'm really tired this morning and in a hurry, so I am going to reply with trite cliches, ok??

 

My view of education, especially during the younger yrs, is to light the fire. I want my kids to explore, question, investigate, etc. They do very little seat work. They do very little memorization (I know......classical heresy!!) I could careless if my kids can identify what yr x happened until they hit late elementary or middle school. Unless you review constantly, they will forget everything they have learned as far as dates, names, etc.

 

VP is like filling the bucket. They focus on memorization and lots of academics. The kids can repeat a lot of data.

 

Two fundamentally opposing views of primary and early elementary ed.

 

HTH

 

As someone who asked you to do my thinking for me, I don't mind the cliches at all, LOL. Thanks so much for answering my slight hi-jack!! I have gone back and forth on those issues and finally feel like I might be finding my comfort zone. Thanks!

[OnTheBrink]

1. If YOU want to get a good idea of what to teach:

hence Streams of Civilization is NOT for a 2cnd grader....it is for Teacher/ Mom.

 

 

2. If you are using their program as a multi-level history program....I have used their year 5 & 6 with that age level...along with high schoolers....Omnibus wasn't available then.

 

3. So you can pick and choose which ones you want ...or do not want to read.

 

 

Do not expect to read everything! Do not expect to do every worksheet either...some of those are for older kids too.

 

HTH~~

Faithe

 

Well, now that makes sense. LOL I was a bit taken aback at the use of Streams for 2nd grade. I mean, my dd is accelerated, but not that much! LOL

[Wendy in ME]

I have been following this post and just wanted to chime in with the example of my boys who will be 6th and 5th next year covering the end of the 3rd grade (Rome) and the 4th grade (Middle Ages) next year. Streams will be perfect as well as many of the more challenging material. VP is really very easy to teach multi level even though they do actually assign grade levels to the materials.

[angela in ohio]

Also remember that the VP catalog is a catalog, not a curriculum. They sell curriculum, and they have a curriculum guide on their site, but the catalog itself is just an offering of resources that you can buy from them. So not everything would be used by every family.

[LND1218]

Yes, in their lit classes in the school they read the selections aloud together and discuss. I think sometimes simple things have value we don't perceive till we try them, kwim?

 

History books in the catalog. Well you have two things going on there. VP history is meant to cover a spread of ages and the books are marked for upper or lower than the target grade. Also though, VP has a bit of stomach that some people don't have for dry spines in small doses.

 

Now as far as being accelerated, I can't say because for us the recommendations tend to be behind, sorry. However, I really and truly don't see how a K5er and 2nd grader can be behind, as momof7 said. They AREN'T behind. Kids at that age have a HUGE spread of what is normal and they really have to just proceed at their own developmental pace.

 

We NEED to have standards and see that goals and progressions exists. But we don't use that to call our students bad, only to see the next step and move forward diligently.

 

1. If YOU want to get a good idea of what to teach:

hence Streams of Civilization is NOT for a 2cnd grader....it is for Teacher/ Mom.

 

2. If you are using their program as a multi-level history program....I have used their year 5 & 6 with that age level...along with high schoolers....Omnibus wasn't available then.

 

3. So you can pick and choose which ones you want ...or do not want to read.

 

Do not expect to read everything! Do not expect to do every worksheet either...some of those are for older kids too.

 

HTH~~

Faithe

 

I have to agree with these posters. They did a nice job, so I won't repeat what they said.

 

But here you can look at their Scholars list of books. They give a list for younger student and older students. http://resources.veritaspress.com/Scholars/OTAE.html

 

They don't expect you to read all the books in the catalog, but they make them available. And I am glad because I will choose different books at different years depending on the child. I love their selection and variety and how well it lends itself to families with different ages trying to do the same history with all.

 

For example - dd 10, I also found them a bit behind us and we worked ahead in everything but math. We have been behind their standard in math.

 

With dd 6, they are right on maybe a little advanced. She started off slower with everything but math. She is ahead of them in math. So go figure...

 

And I agree you have to keep in mind that it's just a catalog not their curriculum.

Their catalog is a listing of everything they sell not everything you must have. I love how they lay it out by grade, but not everyone does Egypt in 2nd grade. But you will find all books that fit Egypt on that page. Some are for moms or as read alouds. It all depends on the family.

 

I just order what I want no matter what grade level it's listed in. They tend to list their materials at the earliest possible grade. I would guess that's so you don't miss it or maybe that is where it seems to fit best. And maybe some would want to do it then. But they don't necessarily do it then.

 

With Latin for example, they list Latin for Children A in the 3rd grade, but their online classes don't offer it until 4th grade. So some do it in 3rd while other prefer 4th or 5th.

 

I have never found VP dry - it does need to be fleshed out a bit. But we do that without much trouble. It's not for everyone, but it really fits our classical approach - we do heavy grammar memory work, lots of Latin and such. That the classical method we like and use.

 

I want to be moving out of focusing so much on learning the facts come middle school, so this works for us.

[Wendi]

I'm really tired this morning and in a hurry, so I am going to reply with trite cliches, ok??

 

My view of education, especially during the younger yrs, is to light the fire. I want my kids to explore, question, investigate, etc. They do very little seat work. They do very little memorization (I know......classical heresy!!) I could careless if my kids can identify what yr x happened until they hit late elementary or middle school. Unless you review constantly, they will forget everything they have learned as far as dates, names, etc.

 

VP is like filling the bucket. They focus on memorization and lots of academics. The kids can repeat a lot of data.

 

Two fundamentally opposing views of primary and early elementary ed.

 

HTH

 

We use VP in our own way. I don't focus on memorization and drill in history; I focus on the big ideas, exploring the things that really get us interested, and giving an overall "flow" of history from early times to the present. We do lots of read-alouds, and skip a lot of the boring stuff. (Although I am actually disappointed in VP's coverage of the Declaration of Independence, and am using another resource for more detail.)

 

So I don't expect ds to memorize all the stuff, but we use the VP cards as our framework. He does the worksheets, but not all the tests, and we pick and choose projects. We weave in outside resources, too. (Like the PBS series "Liberty! The American Revolution" - excellent.)

 

I started looking into other history programs last year, because we "tweak" VP so much. But ds noticed me looking at other history programs, and loudly insisted he LOVES Veritas! So we have stuck with it, although I'm still unsure about next year (1815-present) because of the whole Civil War controversy.

 

Wendi

[Jami]

Also remember that the VP catalog is a catalog, not a curriculum. They sell curriculum, and they have a curriculum guide on their site, but the catalog itself is just an offering of resources that you can buy from them. So not everything would be used by every family.

 

This is a very good point, Angela. If you (general) listen to teacher talks from Veritas Academy, you can hear that the teachers there use *some* of the materials in different ways, adding or subtracting as need be. Curriculum is just a tool, it may or may not fit the individual goals and methods for each homeschool or private school. One thing I appreciate about Westminster Academy and their director of instruction, James Daniels (my fave. Circe lecturer) is that for the most part, they don't recommend curriculum. Or give lists for what they use. Because what *they* use is what best fits *their* goals, *their* students, *their* location, etc. We each need to know our own students and goals well enough to decide if particular tools fit our purposes or not. I think some classical schools (from what I understand) thought that by just using all the same materials that schools like Logos or Veritas use, they'd magically get the same results, finding burn out or frustration when they didn't. Because the teachers, students, goals, etc. differed even with the camp of "Classical Christian Education".

 

Just my little tangent for your reading amusement. ;)

 

Jami

[PeterPan]

Agreeing with Wendi here, VP can be used so many ways. It's only stiff and tight if you let it be. I doubt, if you set us down, there's a huge amount of difference between the way momof7 and I do things for history (both hand our kids a stack of books and say to have fun). I just use the VP cards to organize me, cuz I don't know history. It's all in how you use it.

 

And yes, VP does intend for you to read the sources on the back of the card, including Streams, and that means all the way down in 2nd grade. But it's such SMALL doses, not reading the thing through straight, that it's really not that big a deal. If you used Streams as your spine and read it straight through, sure that would not be appropriate. But honestly, if all they're reading is a one page selection on a particular topic, there's NO problem with a younger dc reading it. (or you reading it to them, whatever works better) And VP usually lists multiple resources for the spine readings, meaning you could select something else. It's not just what you use, but how you use it.

 

BTW, to the person's comment about the "grade level" of books in the lit section, you will notice those same books may get repeated in the Omnibus series. Different ages read the books and interact at different levels. VP focuses more on plot and the basics at the lower levels, not really delving into the meaning and profundity so much. It means a younger dc can read the Hobbit or whatever at a young age, enjoy it at his level then, and reapproach the material when he gets older and is more reflective. Makes sense to me.

[cajun.classical]

So we have stuck with it, although I'm still unsure about next year (1815-present) because of the whole Civil War controversy.

Wendi

 

Wendi,

 

We use VP and just spent the last 8 weeks on the Civil War. Was there anything in particular you were wondering about?