cecily Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I have been reading about eating like a vegan and there is something I do not understand and was hoping someone here could clarify for me. The vegan books say that one of the reasons for not eating animals - along with better health and for the sake of the environment - is that it is wrong to eat a fellow creature. It goes on, however, to say that dairy and eggs should be eliminated as well because this too is inhumane. I understand that conventional farms may treat dairy cows and chickens badly and that that would be a reason to not use dairy or eggs. But, I thought that organic, free range farmers were producing dairy and eggs in a humane way so I cannot understand why purchasing from these farmers would be considered wrong by a vegan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cecily Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 I just wanted to add that I am interested in becoming a vegetarian but am exploring vegan as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I understand that conventional farms may treat dairy cows and chickens badly and that that would be a reason to not use dairy or eggs. But, I thought that organic, free range farmers were producing dairy and eggs in a humane way so I cannot understand why purchasing from these farmers would be considered wrong by a vegan. ... is because the cows have to keep giving birth in order to keep up their milk supply. Those calves, particularly male calves, have to go somewhere - they will be killed young (to avoid the farmer having to pay for their upkeep) or killed later, if there is a market for their meat. We have about eight male dairy calves in a neighbouring field to us. I suspect that they will all be killed before the winter comes and feed becomes expensive. Not sure about the issue with eggs. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Many cows are also given drugs to boost their milk supplies. I'll bet they don't enjoy mastitus any more than we do. Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaceyinLA Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 and I know there are dairy farmers on these boards, so I need to clarify that I'm not trying to attack them personally, the dairy industry as a whole is worse than the meat industry. Dairy animals are a double-whammy as far as inhumane treatment goes. Cows are pushed to give maximum milk for a few years, then they become hamburger. Their offspring are taken from them shortly after birth, if not immediately. Many males are then doomed to veal crates for months before they are killed. Female calves are of course brought up to become milkers so the cycle can start all over. Eggs, but only free-range eggs on a local farm, I have no issue with. Hens lay eggs daily whether you eat them or not. I don't see the harm. Store eggs (aka factory eggs), no. They are treated far too inhumanely. I couldn't support that. Probably the overall biggest problem with chickens is the hatcheries that raise them; they destroy thousands of male chicks daily because they are "unneeded." They will literally toss them in garbage cans to die. Disgusting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I have been reading about eating like a vegan and there is something I do not understand and was hoping someone here could clarify for me. The vegan books say that one of the reasons for not eating animals - along with better health and for the sake of the environment - is that it is wrong to eat a fellow creature. It goes on, however, to say that dairy and eggs should be eliminated as well because this too is inhumane. I understand that conventional farms may treat dairy cows and chickens badly and that that would be a reason to not use dairy or eggs. But, I thought that organic, free range farmers were producing dairy and eggs in a humane way so I cannot understand why purchasing from these farmers would be considered wrong by a vegan. Define creature. Identity recognition and plant behavior Sagebrush plants use volatile cues emitted by clipped neighbors to adjust their defenses against herbivores. Recently, we reported that cues from genetically identical ‘self’ clones were more effective at reducing damage than were cues from ‘nonself’ clones. This indicates that plants can distinguish self from non-self through volatiles and respond differentially. Identity recognition may be an essential step in enabling plants to behave cooperatively. And sagebrush isn't the only plant they have found it in. That just happens to be the first journal article I grabbed. Plants, while not technically 'sentient', are, apparently, a type of 'creature'. Humans are not long for this earth if they decide celery is higher up the food chain then themselves. a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 In order to produce hens, you're producing roosters. You either need to keep an equal number of productive animals as non-productive animals (and keep them separately, or your hens will die from *ahem* overuse), or do something with the males. In order to produce milk, you're producing calves, including both male and female offspring. Again, you'll need to do something with the males, and pet cows are a LOT more expensive than pet chickens. I am not going to get into the treatment issue, because there are farms which treat better or worse. But if you believe that causing another creature to be killed is bad, dairy and eggs still do so, albeit indirectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 There are another aspects to veganism. One is that is that producing animals, which are higher up the food chain than plants, is less energy efficient than growing plant crops (it takes a lot of plants to feed the animals which we then eat, when we could be eating the plants instead), and with millions of people starving daily, and forests being cut down thousands of acres a day...being vegan is a statement of using the productive and available land most efficiently so that everyone has enough, not just those of us in the privileged West. Many people can be fed off an acre of plants compared to an acre of grazing dairy cows. As for the eggs, for example, most vegetarian Hindus (that I know) wont eat eggs although they will drink dairy. Cows milk is considered a sacred food produced by love of the cow (not mass produced, though). Humans would drink what is left over and the calf would not be killed, as it is here. Eggs...I am not sure...I think they are considered too close to meat, and probably in most farm areas, most eggs would be fertilised (especially since they wouldn't be killing the roosters to eat) so you would be killing a potential living being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicAnn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I can only speak personally, but I don't drink cows milk...even if the cow is in good conditions, because I don't think as a human mammal we should be drinking the milk of other mammals. We make our own milk for a reason, and we eventually stop making that milk for the same reason. We are also the only other species that does this. Eggs, in a lot of ways I don't have a problem with. However, if I think to hard about what an egg is...then I gag a little. :) Having said that, we fully intend on getting chickens someday. Also, unless you own a small farm, or are able to visit the farm regularly, it is impossible to know what treatment the animals are getting. "Organic, free range, natural" products are often just labeled as such (although organic does have regulations)...the products may not be these things, and the animals may be treated terribly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamauk Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Free Range & Cage Free are also regulated terms. I have toyed with vegetaraianism off and on for several years now, but the fact remains that when I am meatless I simiply feel like s!#t. I, personally, am unable to get all of the nutrients my body needs from plant based foods alone. My family drinks raw milk from grassfed Jersey cows (from a local farm that we do visit often). They rotate the girls so that they are not forced into over birthing and they are given no hormones to increase their milk supply. The meat we eat comes from grassfed/pastured animals from another local farm that, again, we visit often. We get our eggs from this place as well. I've done a lot of research and a lot of soul searching and I truly believe that we as humans are part of the food chain and the "circle of life" (cheezy term, I know) and I believe God gave put these animals on Earth to do certain jobs for us and when their jobs are complete, he intended us to nourish our bodies with them ~ as their final job. I also believe that it's our duty and responsibility to ensure that these animals have the best life possible while here on Earth. This is why I'm so picky about the animal products that I feed my family. I would suggest reading the books "Omnivore's Dilemma" and "Nourishing Traditions" if you'd like to know more. Just my .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I would suspect the problem with eggs isn't the hens, it's the roosters. To get enough hens, rooster chicks must die or live only long enoughto be slaughtered. I don't have a problem with that myself and would happily make some good rooster stew (and will since we raised our own meat chickens this summer) but if you were ethically opposed to eating meat then I can understand why eggs would bother you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakblossoms Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Cage free is not regulated. They can be cage free in a giant enclosed shed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingnlearning Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 So it's ok if a hawk kills and eats a chicken but not if a human does? A huge amount of chickens that are free ranging are picked off by predators. They can be cage free inside or outside and as long as they have enough space, the chickens don't care either way. A big huge secure pen keeps the chickens safe. I don't care for large commercial operations; I like to see the smaller farms that take the quality of life/health of their stock into account. But if the animals are well cared for in life and slaughtered efficiently/humanely I think it's ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakblossoms Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 The OP asked for clarification about a Vegan question. Why would you answer if you just want to start a fight about it? Efficient cheap death just isn't humane. Male baby chicks are routinely ground alive as a waste product. And, yes I do think a chicken would choose to not live in a stinky, nasty wharehouse that has been labeled humane or cage free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 So it's ok if a hawk kills and eats a chicken but not if a human does? Humans have a capacity to make a choice. My answer to the OP would be that animals exist for their own reasons and not for humans to use as we choose or see fit (as well as the unneeded suffering and death that go along with producing eggs and milk for human consumption). I know that some people disagree with that on religious grounds. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Humans have a capacity to make a choice. My answer to the OP would be that animals exist for their own reasons and not for humans to use as we choose or see fit (as well as the unneeded suffering and death that go along with producing eggs and milk for human consumption). I know that some people disagree with that on religious grounds. Tara :iagree: I'm am a committed meat eater, enough that we're producing our own now but shucks, other people make other choices and it's not hard for me to understand their reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cecily Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 Thank you for all of the helpful posts. I understand the issues much better now and will think them through. Cecily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 But, I thought that organic, free range farmers were producing dairy and eggs in a humane way so I cannot understand why purchasing from these farmers would be considered wrong by a vegan. I wouldn't trust the labels in a grocery store to tell me accurately if my eggs and dairy are coming from animals who are not suffering. I do trust the political active and vocal buyers at our member-run grocery cooperative, and the sun-browned old women who pat my kids on the head at the farmers market. The vegans I know who don't take advantage of our excellent access to kindly-treated cows all believe that cows that are currently extant should just be pets and we should stop raising them because they don't contribute to a healthy ecosystem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyLady Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I just wanted to say that I'm vegan and if you have any questions, please feel free to PM me. I know this topic tends to get heated when discussed (as I'm trying my hardest not to respond to some of the posts on here) so I won't respond here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristyB in TN Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I'm vegan and originally made that decision based on my health and wanting to get all the animal products out of my diet. Therefore, eggs and dairy are out. After adopting the vegan diet, I started being more sensitive to the animal issues such as how they are treated before we eat them, the cruelty issues, the hormones and such, now I can't look at meat without being a little sad. I think mine took a different course than most people, though. The meat protein issue was my main motivator. My family health history is not so great and I wanted to have the best possible chance at being disease free, vegan just makes sense to me. I do cook meat on occasion for my meat eating sons. My husband and daughter are vegan, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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