How did I end up with such a rude child?

[Pink Fairy]

This is what I'm wondering. I'm not sure if there will actual answers given though.

 

What do you mean by actual answers? I mentioned losing very important privileges--swimming, bowling, and going to a minor league baseball game. He lost them when he couldn't get his behavior under control and was essentially throwing a fit. When he is not in the middle of a rage/fit, he is able to respond appropriately to the threat of a loss of privilege.

 

Is that a better explanation?

[calandalsmom]

This is what I'm wondering. I'm not sure if there will actual answers given though.

 

Some of you guys seem to be really confused about the existance of intrinsic motivation.

 

Maybe you'd want to look into it a little.

 

Its pretty early on that a sense of self preservation kicks in.

 

its also fairly early on that most kids grasp social niceties.

 

For those that didn't, despite living in homes where social niceties are practiced and re-enforced explicit instruction is usually udner taken. But its not always an immediate success.

 

When my ds1 was 9 he received a gift he found insulting from an aunt and uncle who do not know him. He felt insulted bc it was beneath his level, but they did not know that bc they do not know him. he was insulted bc he can't grasp that it was nice of them to get him a gift bc he is too busy being insulted by it. he actually had a little snit about it. We sent him upstairs.

 

not bc we thought that would teach him. rather bc we needed to get him out of the room and apologize.

 

 

The next year rolled around. Prior to Christmas we spoke many times about how these people do not know him and may not be able to choose a gift for him that he will enjoy but that they want to share a gift with him bc its tradition and he is their nephew etc We practiced appropriate responses.

 

He received Uno. It was a nicer Uno not the carboard box one.

 

Tho we had practiced he was unable to reach completely appropriate levels. He opened it and looked at it in confusion and said, "This must be for my brother." They assured him it was for him. He eventually said, "oh. well my brother can have it."

 

That was progress.

[leeannpal]

How does one absolutely not allow a child to play in traffic, run after mom with a knife, beat the dog with a ball bat? If a parent has found a way to not allow those behaviors, why can't the parent use the same method to not allow calling mom and dad obscene or rude names? Whatever that method is. As I've said before I get that each child gets an individual method depending on needs.

 

At the age of almost 9, if she is not on her medication, I wouldn't trust my daughter not to impulsively run out in the road. Today, she tried to stuff one of our kittens in a shoe head first, and not gently. She's not stupid or uncaring; she has ADHD and impulse issues. I guess it is very hard for those with children who do not have disorders to understand. She knows she's not supposed to yell at mom and dad. She does it anyway. We can't stop her from doing that. We can only provide consequences when she does. And yet, the consequences make little difference.

 

I want to apologize for being rude. This issue is a real pet peeve of mine. I've been told by family members and strangers alike that if i would just discipline my child, she wouldn't behave that way. Can you imagine how frustrating that is when it takes all your time and energy to manage and deal with your child's issues only to be told that it's your fault?

Edited August 1, 2011 by leeannpal

[Parrothead]

Okay, I think I get what you are saying. In my house, when ds is exploding the things that will work with him in other situations when he is calm won't work then. I still enforce the consequences, but it doesn't stop him from exploding the next time.

I get what you are saying. And I agree. Dd and I did/do our fair share of role playing in calm moments. (She has sensory and attachment issues so...). Like you I can and do enforce the consequences but, no, it doesn't stop the behavior next time. It might be 5 or 39, or 138 next times before the behavior is changed. Also enforcing the consequences is different than allowing the behavior. By your own admission, you don't allow rude behavior. You deal with it in a way that is best for your child. That is a whole lot different than going along your merry way and allowing the behavior.

 

If you go back and read more of what I said, you'll see I never said I thought discipline/consequences/redirection/etc., was a one shot deal. Good Lord, who is lucky enough to have the kid that one talking to changes the behavior? (I do think a lot of people were reading things into what I was saying badly.)

 

I know it is work to parent. I also know what I've seen of results of the parents that gave up (too early?) or didn't give a rat's patootie. So much potential wasted.

[Trish]

Okay, I think I get what you are saying. In my house, when ds is exploding the things that will work with him in other situations when he is calm won't work then. I still enforce the consequences, but it doesn't stop him from exploding the next time.

 

Well, right, it won't stop him from exploding. And as Chucki mentioned, if hurling a plate of food on the floor when he's angry "happened to be his thing" (I know it's not for you, just using her example), you wouldn't just throw up your hands and not deliver consequences for that. I hope!

 

But, there's more than one phase of discipline. The first phase is to get through the immediate situation without physical harm, and to calm the child as best you can. The second is follow through calmly (later, whenever you deem appropriate) with consequences.

 

People seem stuck on "preventing the behavior." That's a great goal, and works for many things, but not everything. Some things are just wash, rinse, repeat, for months, maybe YEARS. I don't care if I hear rudeness or disrespect daily for ten years. I may grow weary of it, but I will never stop delivering the lesson/consequence.

 

Hopefully the CHILD grows as weary of the talk as the parent, and eventually matures/learns/calculates the value of his or her time.

 

I don't think there is some level of UberControl where the child doesn't act out, or that we're ever "done" with the backtalk issue. I imagine it will always rear up until they're adults. And even adult children can be rude, I'm sure, but at that point I plan to deal with it in more of a Miss Manners way. "Oh dear, are you sure you're feeling well? You sound tired."

[TheAutumnOak]

How does one absolutely not allow a child to play in traffic, run after mom with a knife, beat the dog with a ball bat? If a parent has found a way to not allow those behaviors, why can't the parent use the same method to not allow calling mom and dad obscene or rude names? Whatever that method is. As I've said before I get that each child gets an individual method depending on needs.

 

Don't limit it to just those examples. Every household has things that are absolute must nots. It doesn't matter what they are. For some it could be no playing in traffic. For others it could be no spitting. For some it could be not prank calling 911. For others still it could be no dumping dinner on the floor in a fit of anger.

 

Whatever one's particular must nots, how are they enforced? Why isn't rudeness a must not? Or why can't rudeness be disciplined/consequences/redirection/etc., the same way must nots are?

 

:iagree: Calling me names or hitting me is a definite "must not" in my house...I deal with "must nots" in different ways depending on the situation, but I always dealt with "must nots" right away when my boys were young...Really young...I think that Parrothead is right...I feel that in some way parents do not consider name calling or being rude to be a deal breaker for them, like the examples given above would be...My boys do things that I consider rude and I let them know when it happens, every time it happens, but they know that they can't call me a name, tell me they are not going to do something, or hit me...Those situations just don't arise...

 

:grouphug: I am not sure how to correct behavior that I allowed in the past, so I can imagine that this would be a tough situation to be in...Although I don't have the same difficulties with my boys, I have other ones, and I am trying to figure out how to deal with those...

[Parrothead]

At the age of almost 9, if she is not on her medication, I wouldn't trust my daughter not to impulsively run out in the road. Today, she tried to stuff one of our kittens in a shoe head first, and not gently. She's not stupid or uncaring; she has ADHD and impulse issues. I guess it is very hard for those with children who do not have disorders to understand. She knows she's not supposed to yell at mom and dad. She does it anyway. We can't stop her from doing that. We can only provide consequences when she does. And yet, the consequences make little difference.

 

I want to apologize for being rude. This issue is a real pet peeve of mine. I've been told by family members and strangers alike that if i would just discipline my child, she wouldn't behave that way. Can you imagine how frustrating that is when it takes all your time and energy to manage and deal with your child's issues only to be told that it's your fault?

I also apologize for having a snit.

 

Believe it or not I have to deal with the exact same thing from family and friends. It is all my fault that dd has her issues. It is my fault that she is fearful and timid. It is my fault for homeschooling her and being over protective of her. Yeah, I get you. :grouphug:

[Parrothead]

Well, right, it won't stop him from exploding. And as Chucki mentioned, if hurling a plate of food on the floor when he's angry "happened to be his thing" (I know it's not for you, just using her example), you wouldn't just throw up your hands and not deliver consequences for that. I hope!

 

But, there's more than one phase of discipline. The first phase is to get through the immediate situation without physical harm, and to calm the child as best you can. The second is follow through calmly (later, whenever you deem appropriate) with consequences.

 

People seem stuck on "preventing the behavior." That's a great goal, and works for many things, but not everything. Some things are just wash, rinse, repeat, for months, maybe YEARS. I don't care if I hear rudeness or disrespect daily for ten years. I may grow weary of it, but I will never stop delivering the lesson/consequence.

 

Hopefully the CHILD grows as weary of the talk as the parent, and eventually matures/learns/calculates the value of his or her time.

 

I don't think there is some level of UberControl where the child doesn't act out, or that we're ever "done" with the backtalk issue. I imagine it will always rear up until they're adults. And even adult children can be rude, I'm sure, but at that point I plan to deal with it in more of a Miss Manners way. "Oh dear, are you sure you're feeling well? You sound tired."

Here. This. What she said, much better than I have been.

[Saille]

Don't limit it to just those examples. Every household has things that are absolute must nots. It doesn't matter what they are. For some it could be no playing in traffic. For others it could be no spitting. For some it could be not prank calling 911. For others still it could be no dumping dinner on the floor in a fit of anger.

 

Whatever one's particular must nots, how are they enforced? Why isn't rudeness a must not? Or why can't rudeness be disciplined/consequences/redirection/etc., the same way must nots are?

 

Spitting is a terrific example. Make a big huge hairy deal the first time a toddler spits, and you're going to be dealing with it for weeks instead of minutes.

 

As many others have said, there is a certain kind of kid who melts down like the OP is describing, and it is not really an issue of rudeness, per se. It is an issue of the kid's wiring, and how it is affected by combinations of deeply engrossing activities and abrupt transitions (electronics are a really common issue for this kind of kid). It took me a really long time to grasp this about my oldest. These transitions take them instantaneously to frustration level...two-year-old exhausted meltdown level. You can't negotiate with an irrational person. A kid in this state will not only not respond to the threats or applications of dire consequences with compliance, but will rather escalate. Keep it up, and that kid will end up in what my friend Amy calls "the despair place", where you could take away every single thing that child owned, loved or enjoyed, and it would not even slow him or her down...at that moment, you've got a child who sees him/herself as literally having nothing to lose, no redeeming qualities, and the blackest future imaginable. If you want a recipe for a depressed, self-harming teenager, get in one of these kids' faces every time they melt down in this way and apply "dire consequences".

 

Or, you could walk away for five minutes and the kid will cool down, come to you, and apologize, and you can discuss strategies for next time. You can apply consequences for anything the child knew was an infraction at that point, too. Generally, the kid will see the justice of that...at least, mine generally does, even if he doesn't like it.

 

Insisting that a parent with such a child come down on him or her like a ton of bricks the instant the behavior occurs is akin to recommending she stand over her child threatening dire consequences b/c he or she doesn't grasp an academic concept. It's not helpful, and it's not teaching. It's harmful.

 

Saw your last post just after I posted this, btw. Maybe we agree?

[Parrothead]

Spitting is a terrific example. Make a big huge hairy deal the first time a toddler spits, and you're going to be dealing with it for weeks instead of minutes.

 

As many others have said, there is a certain kind of kid who melts down like the OP is describing, and it is not really an issue of rudeness, per se. It is an issue of the kid's wiring, and how it is affected by combinations of deeply engrossing activities and abrupt transitions (electronics are a really common issue for this kind of kid). It took me a really long time to grasp this about my oldest. These transitions take them instantaneously to frustration level...two-year-old exhausted meltdown level. You can't negotiate with an irrational person. A kid in this state will not only not respond to the threats or applications of dire consequences with compliance, but will rather escalate. Keep it up, and that kid will end up in what my friend Amy calls "the despair place", where you could take away every single thing that child owned, loved or enjoyed, and it would not even slow him or her down...at that moment, you've got a child who sees him/herself as literally having nothing to lose, no redeeming qualities, and the blackest future imaginable. If you want a recipe for a depressed, self-harming teenager, get in one of these kids' faces every time they melt down in this way and apply "dire consequences".

 

Or, you could walk away for five minutes and the kid will cool down, come to you, and apologize, and you can discuss strategies for next time. You can apply consequences for anything the child knew was an infraction at that point, too. Generally, the kid will see the justice of that...at least, mine generally does, even if he doesn't like it.

 

Insisting that a parent with such a child come down on him or her like a ton of bricks the instant the behavior occurs is akin to recommending she stand over her child threatening dire consequences b/c he or she doesn't grasp an academic concept. It's not helpful, and it's not teaching. It's harmful.

 

Saw your last post just after I posted this, btw. Maybe we agree?

Probably.

I agree with everything you said.

I think I see where most people are getting hung up. It is the dire consequences. Okay, my bad choice of wording, but I don't know how else to put it.

 

Again, what is a dire consequence for one isn't going to be the same as for another. Also the swiftness with which the dire consequences are enacted is also going to be different. For mine it would be immediate. As you said, for yours swift might be 5 minutes later depending on how long it takes to get a rational human being back.

 

(I keep saying these things and I think people are getting stuck on some key words without reading everything.)

[Pink Fairy]

Well maybe this is a communication issue then, because when I read "don't allow" it means "doesn't happen because I don't allow it." Sort of like, "I don't allow sleepovers," means your kids don't go on sleepovers because you don't allow it. Apparently "don't allow" might mean that when a child does something that you don't allow there is a consequence, is that correct?

 

Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone here was saying that there isn't a consequence for doing something that isn't allowed. And I don't remember reading anyone saying that they only discipline once and if it doesn't work then oh well. Apparently it's possible that we are all mostly on the same page, and misunderstanding each other.

[HeidiKC]

I get what you are saying. And I agree. Dd and I did/do our fair share of role playing in calm moments. (She has sensory and attachment issues so...). Like you I can and do enforce the consequences but, no, it doesn't stop the behavior next time. It might be 5 or 39, or 138 next times before the behavior is changed. Also enforcing the consequences is different than allowing the behavior. By your own admission, you don't allow rude behavior. You deal with it in a way that is best for your child. That is a whole lot different than going along your merry way and allowing the behavior.

 

If you go back and read more of what I said, you'll see I never said I thought discipline/consequences/redirection/etc., was a one shot deal. Good Lord, who is lucky enough to have the kid that one talking to changes the behavior? (I do think a lot of people were reading things into what I was saying badly.)

 

 

 

Well, maybe a lot of us are just misunderstanding each other. You said in your first post that the OP's child was getting away with rude behavior because she was allowing it. But at that point she had not said how she was responding to him. So I guess that's where I misunderstood you, because here you agree that this mom is not allowing it and enforcing consequences even though her child also is continuing to have poor behavior. And you agree that it might be MANY times before the behavior does change. I guess I assumed that the OP was also not allowing rude behavior and that her child was in the "process" (LONG) of learning correct behavior and that she was frustrated and questioning whether it would ever work. Maybe I misinterpreted her post, but that's what I thought. I don't think she ever said anything about not responding to the behavior and allowing it.

 

So I guess that's where the misunderstanding (at least on my part) comes from. I would think that most moms here would say they come down swiftly on rudeness, whether that takes a very harsh or gentle tone. I never got the impression that anyone questioned your parenting - you sound like a great mom. I'm all for cracking down on any kind of nasty talk or rude manners. I absolutely don't allow it! I think it's just hard when someone is told they are allowing rude behavior when they haven't indicated that's the case. And of course any of us with a child that has ever been rude find it hard not to take that a bit personally! I'm very relieved to see that you agree it might take a lot of work to correct rudeness.

 

I haven't seen a response from the OP on this (she probably thinks we're all nuts!), but I'm hoping that she is responding swiftly and in the best way for her son...and that he's in the "process" of learning good manners. And let's hope for her sake he's over the "hump"! Parenting is so hard and it's a bummer when we argue about it!

[rocketgirl]

This is a reply to the original post, I haven't read all of the threads!! Is there a tv connection? Just asking because we had one, changed it, & saw a huge (shockingly huge) change ( with our 11 yo ). Not to make something sound easy, as that fit into one tiny sentence, because it wasn't, what we changed was major in her life, and the effect has been major on ours.

Edited August 1, 2011 by rocketgirl

[Parrothead]

When I said I don't allow that means I have a rule against something. In particular let's use the rudeness.

 

I don't allow people (dh, dd, mom, the lady in the checkout behind me, etc.) to call me a jerk. No, I have no way of physically stopping anyone from opening their mouth and saying the word. But there is a consequence for each of these people which shows my great displeasure. I do what I can to remove myself from the situation or remove the name caller from me.

 

Along the same lines, back to my question to Dawn way at the beginning of the thread, did she allow her son to call her a jerk? Come to find out, no, she does not allow it and there were consequences and it is a work in progress.

 

That was all I really wanted to know. That is all really anyone can hope for.

 

I agree that I'm probably coming across badly. Again, what is swift and dire consequences for me and mine is not necessarily swift and dire for another. I can almost guarantee that it is different in this house than almost any other. Which is why I left it open to interpretation. I just didn't think so many people would think I meant harsh or mean.

 

And, yes, "I don't allow" means "I have a rule against"

[Parrothead]

Well, maybe a lot of us are just misunderstanding each other. You said in your first post that the OP's child was getting away with rude behavior because she was allowing it.

Actually what I said was:

No one can be rude to you unless you allow it - including a child. If he isn't taught appropriate behavior (one way or another) he can't give the behavior you want. Truly this is a learned response.

Dawn asked in her title why does she have such a rude child.

 

I stand by, no one can be rude to you unless you allow it. The average person (not parent to child) will not simply stand by while someone is being rude to them. They will leave, demand honor restored or maybe even punch the offending person's lights out. They don't allow it.

 

If it is a child being rude, well, the parent is informed and the child isn't allowed to be rude anymore. If it is the parent of the child that the child is being rude to, then the parent still deals with it (see the end of the above quote) or the parent lets the child be rude to him/her.

 

Truly, no one can be rude to you unless you allow it. If one is going to stand there and accept it, well, one is allowing it.

[HeidiKC]

I just didn't think so many people would think I meant harsh or mean.

 

I never thought you meant mean or harsh. And honestly, I don't remember reading any posts that seemed to think or suggest that, either! But maybe I missed something. I thought I read most of them. My issue was never your response to how you would handle a situation (it seemed very good and I figured it might even be similar to mine), but the assumption/statement that the OP was allowing it when she never indicated that (and that's what most of the disagreeing posters seemed to take issue with as well).

 

Anyway, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding! As I said, you sound like a very good parent!

[Nestof3]

I don't allow it in the sense that there are consequences, but that doesn't mean it doesn't occur again at another time. I can think of things my boys have done, and when I told them not to do them again, they didn't. Like, don't take the _______________ into that room, for example.

 

I don't allow -- or desire -- a lot of things to happen. At this point, I feel like it is implied that if a child's behavior doesn't change after the first time, the behavior is being allowed. It seems that I could have nearly perfect children if that were the case.

 

My post about Aaron earlier was to point out that at no time did he stop lying. What has happened, I believe, is that as he got older, he became more responsible and had fewer opportunities to lie. I was never successful in getting that to stop regardless of how severe the punishment. He started brushing his teeth, for example, because he didn't want his breath to stink. So, I didn't have to ask him anymore if he brushed, and he never had the chance to lie about it. (one example)

 

There are lots of things my kids don't do, but they don't NOT do them because I tell them not to or because the punishment is so severe -- they just have no desire to: hit the cat, throw rocks at cars, smash windows, spill cranberry juice on the carpet, and so forth.

 

Sure, I have all sorts of examples of some improvements in all three of the boys, but I don't think I have ever successfully parented out of one of my children a weakness they have.

 

I have my own weaknesses, and I don't think there's a person out there than can coerce them out of me (perhaps some severe beatings might do it, but it would ruin my relationship with the person). I keep trying and working on myself. There are thousands of things I don't struggle with (honesty being one of them, doing a job well, giving something my best), but there are certain ones I tend to fall prey to (being easily frustrated, not taming my tongue, interrupting my husband when he's talking -- just some examples).

 

Actually what I said was:

Dawn asked in her title why does she have such a rude child.

 

I stand by, no one can be rude to you unless you allow it. The average person (not parent to child) will not simply stand by while someone is being rude to them. They will leave, demand honor restored or maybe even punch the offending person's lights out. They don't allow it.

 

If it is a child being rude, well, the parent is informed and the child isn't allowed to be rude anymore. If it is the parent of the child that the child is being rude to, then the parent still deals with it (see the end of the above quote) or the parent lets the child be rude to him/her.

 

Truly, no one can be rude to you unless you allow it. If one is going to stand there and accept it, well, one is allowing it.

[kalanamak]

Thanks for listening.

 

I like to remind people that my "difficult brother" ended up dedicating years making sure my folks stayed in their home until their 90s, sometimes stopping by 3 times a day.

[Sugarfoot]

Dawn, I have one DS with sensory issues, dyslexia, and likely Asperger's, who's super sweet even though so many things bother him. Then there's DD 5. She's the one with the official SPD diagnosis, and while OT has helped immensely, she is just...so different than my others. It's so hard to deal with. Her therapist has explained that her little body feels as though it's in fight or flight mode all the time, and it just wears. her. out. It's also not something that her health will be able to support long-term, which is why we're doing everything we can to help her. Sometimes I wonder if we're making any progress at all, though.

 

One of my deepest hopes has been that she's not dyslexic, as she's my other lefty, like DS (they both get the left-handedness from me, and dyslexia runs in my DH's family). I just don't feel like I have the energy to deal with all of that again, especially with her, oh, my word, I can't imagine. Over the last few weeks, she's been showing some signs that she may go the other way and be fairly precocious with academics, and now I'm thinking that may be worse!

 

Anyway, all this to say that something in your original post just struck me, and I just wanted to offer :grouphug: to you. The one thing that I emphasize over and over with DD is empathy. So, for example, if she loses a game to me, I explain how it makes me feel that she wishes I would have lost, and that when she wins, I'm happy for her, but it makes me sad that she can't feel the same for me. This seems to be the thing that my other kids do automatically that, for whatever reason, she doesn't, and it bothers me. My DS 3.5 is much better at this sort of thing than she is.

 

Last night when we got home, she threw a fit as we were pulling into the driveway, and after everyone else went into the house, I had her help me pick up the trash (her mess that she had made on purpose) on the floor of the van. She actually said, "I'm not picking up trash. That's your job." We had a conversation about why she thought that she was too good to do something that she thought I should do for her, and how that made me feel. Then I turned the tables on her and asked her how she would feel if I made picking up everyone else's trash her permanent job. (which was so tempting at that moment...)

 

I understand what you're saying. Yes, of course there was a consequence, but I want the motivation behind the behavior to change. Moments like this have happened since she was old enough to speak. None of my other children are anything like this. There's something else there, and it's exhausting to deal with, but I'm determined, just like you, that my child understands the effect her behavior has on other people. Although she would never say such a thing to anyone else, ugh.

 

It's hard when you've been a perfectly effective parent for years, and then suddenly you have a child who is so "out there" that you feel like you must become a totally different parent just for them.

 

After posting my story about what happened with DD 5 and the trash in the van last night, I wanted to come back and update. This afternoon when we got home from some errands, I announced that everyone needed to help pick up the trash in the van before they went inside. (It was a mess, particularly the "way back," as we'd eaten lunch at Sonic.) Guess who helped the most, with total cooperation? :001_huh: I was speechless. She even reached under the seats so I wouldn't have to do it. Will I expect this every time from her? Well, we don't call her Miss Unpredictable for nothing!

 

It really helped me, though, to remember that our (massive!) parenting efforts really are making a difference for her, and undoubtedly yours are, too, for your son, and everyone else here who is so completely invested in their children. Like others have said, though, it takes time, and lots of it.

[MelanieM]

Let me ask you this. Does anyone ever get to talk to you that way? Do you allow your husband, parents, in-laws, other people's children, boss, authority figure of some type, anyone to talk to you like that except your child?

 

No, it isn't cut and dried. Yes, sometimes it is time consuming and complicated to get a child to change behavior to something more appropriate. But it has to be done, and done often or we would all go around being rude. Do you have a house rule that words like sh*t, dam* h*ll, f*** aren't used? Why is it easier to get a kid to not be rude using those words but it is hard to get a kid not to say other rude things?

 

Again, you are assuming that this is happening because parents are just allowing it to happen. In fact, I've actually told my kid that if he were to say/do some of the things he does as an adult he'd be in jail, and that it was very important for him to understand social boundaries. I've also had many a conversation with my husband about how frustrating it is to deal with something from a child that I would leave my husband over! But really, what would you have me do? Give the kid up for adoption?

 

The point is I can manage it, work with him about it, talk until my lips fall off, punish, coerce, threaten, take away everything he derives joy from, etc. etc. etc. and it doesn't make him have more impulse control or correct every situation in the heat of the moment. (Of course some things work for some of the time on some issues... it's just not so cut and dried.) So if you see a kid throw a fit and call his mother a jerk, don't just assume it's because she's been lacking as a parent, and perhaps give the benefit of the doubt that she is indeed working with the kid and doing her parenting best.

 

Honestly, I have a child that can be easily corrected with a word. If she says or does something inappropriate I simply point it out and ask her not to do it again, and that's usually the end of it. If she were my only child, or if all of my kids were so pliable, I probably wouldn't understand this either. But just because it isn't something you can imagine happening from your own experience, please don't assume it means people who are living it don't know what they're talking about. Really.

 

(And because you can't read tone... this is not at all said with anger or frustration. I'm happy to continue elaborating when people are missing my point. ;))

 

ETA: I replied before reading ahead. No need to respond to any comments about "allowing" as you've since clarified your stance on that. :)

Edited August 1, 2011 by MelanieM

[MelanieM]

I think the difference is that if other people outside the family talked that way to her, she probably wouldn't speak to them again. She doesn't have this choice with her daughter. Also, adults are able to control themselves. It is much harder for kids to do (I'm not saying it's impossible) and they struggle all the time with various forms of self-control. So I'm not sure the comparison is fair or makes much sense.

 

I guess I'm not sure exactly how you think she should absolutely not allow this. I suppose it depends on what that child needs? But maybe that's the problem - so many parents are trying hard and maybe either can't figure out what the child needs or it is just a long process. She has obviously been trying hard for a LONG time and it is probably something the child will outgrow. I don't think that if a parent can't figure out what the child needs it means it's a lack of good parenting (not saying you said that), or that they aren't totally committed to figuring it out. It's just HARD. And I think it is difficult for these parents when they get what seems to me rather vague advice about absolutely not letting it happen and coming down swiftly in response. How - exactly? In their minds they have done this (and I believe they probably have), but it isn't working and they are trying to figure out what works.

 

I may be reading some of these responses from various people wrong, but sometimes I get the feeling that people think these moms of difficult children are the type that give in to the child or don't do much other than weakly say, "we don't say that in our house" and then let the child continue screaming and/or playing. And maybe some of them are. But I'm sure many are not and are exhausted with the effort of trying to figure out what works after being consistent, firm, etc.

 

Ah, I should have just read ahead before replying. This, EXACTLY!

[MelanieM]

I get what you are saying. And I agree. Dd and I did/do our fair share of role playing in calm moments. (She has sensory and attachment issues so...). Like you I can and do enforce the consequences but, no, it doesn't stop the behavior next time. It might be 5 or 39, or 138 next times before the behavior is changed. Also enforcing the consequences is different than allowing the behavior. By your own admission, you don't allow rude behavior. You deal with it in a way that is best for your child. That is a whole lot different than going along your merry way and allowing the behavior.

 

If you go back and read more of what I said, you'll see I never said I thought discipline/consequences/redirection/etc., was a one shot deal. Good Lord, who is lucky enough to have the kid that one talking to changes the behavior? (I do think a lot of people were reading things into what I was saying badly.)

 

I know it is work to parent. I also know what I've seen of results of the parents that gave up (too early?) or didn't give a rat's patootie. So much potential wasted.

 

Honestly, this is a completely different perspective than what I've read from you so far. (As far as my understanding of what I've read... I have no clue whether or not you intended it this way, or if your words simply weren't coming across as a match for the opinion you are posting here.) You originally started out saying if a kid was being rude it's because they were allowed to behave that way, and suggested it was due to a lack of effective parenting. Here, you are saying you understand that it can take many, many times to correct an undesirable behaviour. I think this is the point people have been trying to communicate this whole thread. Certainly *no one* has been advocating for doing nothing and allowing a child to call his parents a jerk.

[MelanieM]

Sure, I have all sorts of examples of some improvements in all three of the boys, but I don't think I have ever successfully parented out of one of my children a weakness they have.

 

I have my own weaknesses, and I don't think there's a person out there than can coerce them out of me (perhaps some severe beatings might do it, but it would ruin my relationship with the person). I keep trying and working on myself. There are thousands of things I don't struggle with (honesty being one of them, doing a job well, giving something my best), but there are certain ones I tend to fall prey to (being easily frustrated, not taming my tongue, interrupting my husband when he's talking -- just some examples).

 

Dawn, I think this is such an important point! I believe I can most certainly help my children to learn coping strategies or alternative ways to do things, and I can absolutely be clear on my personal boundaries for what I deem acceptable, but I can't make them be something they aren't. I don't doubt that my more volatile child will always have to work with those feelings. My goal isn't to change him into someone he isn't, but to hopefully give him tools so that he can better cope and navigate the world. That's a big job that takes a whole lot of time and effort, and sometimes feels like it might be a never-ending struggle. :grouphug:

 

You sound like a wonderful mother, and I think your boys are lucky to have you. I hope today shows you a beautiful example of that to help counter those low moments. :grouphug:

[TheAutumnOak]

I grew up here in the US, but in a very different culture than probably most of the people here on the boards...I grew up in the inner city or the "ghetto" if you will, and things are quite different there...What I noticed when I moved away was that there is simply a different standard of behavior from both parents and children...Where I grew up, children were often very rude to the people around them, but not to their parents...You wouldn't see children above the age of one or two throwing a fit in a store...You wouldn't see children calling their parents names or hitting them...I am not sure why, but it just didn't occur...Now things were not "all good" there by any means, like I said people in general were very rude and violent at times with others, but not parents or grandparents, etc...I grew up with the expectation that children respect their parents and hitting or yelling at your parent is just unacceptable...

 

When I moved to a different part of the state, behavior in children changed...Children were more respectful of the people around them, but treated their parents in ways I have never seen or even heard of growing up...Again, I don't know why this is, but I definitely notice a difference in people's expectations of children's behavior...The ideas that children will go through phases of being disrepectful or being out of control is not one I have ever heard of until I became an adult...

 

I know many people will probably disagree with what I am saying, but I do feel that our expectations as parents, what we are use to seeing children do, and the culture we live in will play a large part in how our children behave and how we relate to them, good and bad...I don't believe all of the difficulties we face as parents is just some unavoidable thing that is happening to us...A lot of it has to do with our ideas and how we have raised our children thus far...

[Osmosis Mom]

Tahara, Interesting post. I can add this that in Arab culture kids grow up with the same expectations and are *always* polite to their parents and elders (even )though that can certainly be rude, have no waiting in line manners etc. etc.). There is simply a lot of peer pressure on raising respectful kids from the family and they encourage that as the baby becomes a toddler and grows up. Personally then we have been raising our kids alone so while I have neat and polite kids, then they can be brassy and my teen son's voice can get loud when he talks to me. I know these things would not be had we family around to remind them! As it is, then I have to constantly work on them in order to keep them in their place (as children and us as adults).

 

BTW, Dawn, when I read your post about your son, then ,y first thought was not disobedience, but that he has a hard time with transition. In both the instances where he said "jerk", then he was being transitioned from something he was enjoying doing and was intensely involved with. Perhaps the answer in general would be to modify your parenting a bit so he *does* not get a chance to erupt with a rude word.

 

My kids have gotten ruder as I got teens who picked up stuff, so they occasionally start using shut-up to eachother a lot and occasionally use name-calling (to eachother). I'll reprimand them until I don't want to anymore and then we'll progress to washing the mouth with soap....I don't even have to do it myself (as I did with my guinea pig who also tasted tabasco!!, but I was young then!!). They just do it very quickly themselves, smile when done and modify their language themselves. They do appreciate having good manners and love when they get compliments from people.

 

Anyways, you are brave in putting your heart out here!

[Parrothead]

Honestly, this is a completely different perspective than what I've read from you so far. (As far as my understanding of what I've read... I have no clue whether or not you intended it this way, or if your words simply weren't coming across as a match for the opinion you are posting here.) You originally started out saying if a kid was being rude it's because they were allowed to behave that way, and suggested it was due to a lack of effective parenting. Here, you are saying you understand that it can take many, many times to correct an undesirable behaviour. I think this is the point people have been trying to communicate this whole thread. Certainly *no one* has been advocating for doing nothing and allowing a child to call his parents a jerk.

No, honestly, it is the exact same thing I said from the beginning.

 

And, yes, while it came across that I thought I could magically stop bad behavior from ever happening, it also came across that some parents do advocate do nothing. It actually sounded like they had already given up on their children.

[TheAutumnOak]

Tahara, Interesting post. I can add this that in Arab culture kids grow up with the same expectations and are *always* polite to their parents and elders (even )though that can certainly be rude, have no waiting in line manners etc. etc.). There is simply a lot of peer pressure on raising respectful kids from the family and they encourage that as the baby becomes a toddler and grows up.

 

I never thought of it that way, but there is definitely peer pressure to raise kids who are respectful to you and everyone around you expects that your kid will respect you...

[HeidiKC]

Honestly, this is a completely different perspective than what I've read from you so far. (As far as my understanding of what I've read... I have no clue whether or not you intended it this way, or if your words simply weren't coming across as a match for the opinion you are posting here.) You originally started out saying if a kid was being rude it's because they were allowed to behave that way, and suggested it was due to a lack of effective parenting. Here, you are saying you understand that it can take many, many times to correct an undesirable behaviour. I think this is the point people have been trying to communicate this whole thread. Certainly *no one* has been advocating for doing nothing and allowing a child to call his parents a jerk.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:!!!!

[eternalknot]

I never thought of it that way, but there is definitely peer pressure to raise kids who are respectful to you and everyone around you expects that your kid will respect you...

 

I'm Asian, and your first post (as well as Kate in Arabia's response to it) really resonated with me. I have friends who look like me, but who have been in America for one or more generations and they've become more mainstream American in terms of how they live and parent. It's always interesting to see how different expectations and values are, between those who have been stateside longer -- big parties and gatherings are always a bit fun because the old school, earlier generation adults are going off in native language about the disrepectful youth and "ineffective" parenting of the later generations LOL. Particularly WRT to respect for elders and the family.

 

I see it at work, too. I realized I was officially middle-aged when I clucked at a young (Asian) boy who was disrespecting his grandmother at my (supremely public) workplace. I would have never done that to a kid who wasn't from my own culture, and for a second I was horrified that I had even gone on auto-pilot and done it to this kid! But, that's how our culture goes; you're accountable to everyone for your behavior, and that's part of what keeps kids in line ("in line" being relative to one's social culture, I suppose.) The parents didn't say anything either way, but the grandmother gave me an affirmative nod.

 

I've gotten better control of my tongue since this incident, but I do find myself noticing that certain cultures (ethnic or social, such as socio-economic) have stricter standards and across-the-board expectations, regardless of one's sensorial or other type of limitations.

 

The study of people and cultures fascinates me, I suppose because I've spent a lifetime straddling some.

[HeidiKC]

I never thought of it that way, but there is definitely peer pressure to raise kids who are respectful to you and everyone around you expects that your kid will respect you...

 

Yes, this is very interesting. I also wonder how much of it is also pressure on the kids themselves.

 

We don't have the Disney Channel, but from what I understand there is a lot of sassy, disrespectful attitude towards parents. And parents whose kids watch the shows told me they see the results in their own kids (so the subsequently ban the shows!). So it makes me wonder if just being around kids that are rude to parents or just not part of a culture where EVERYONE is respectful of their elders makes kids more likely to be disrespectful. I'm not trying to take the pressure off parents or lay the blame on society, but surely it isn't just the adults who are influenced by the pressure of having well-behaved kids. All very interesting.

[HeidiKC]

No, honestly, it is the exact same thing I said from the beginning.

 

And, yes, while it came across that I thought I could magically stop bad behavior from ever happening, it also came across that some parents do advocate do nothing. It actually sounded like they had already given up on their children.

 

In your very first post you said that the child was being rude because the parent allowed it (in what seemed a not very sympathetic tone, either). That is not nearly the same at ALL as saying it might take many, many times to correct a behavior. I hope you can see how those two statements sound completely different and why the first statement upset people, since at that point you gave no indication you understood that parents might be trying their best and that it might take many, many tries. It might help to re-read your first post.

[Osmosis Mom]

The funny thing is that while I don't have adult family members wrinkling their nose or giving the youngster a reprimand with a kiss, then I do have older kids who do positive peer pressure. It is actually hilarious as a parent to see your kids reprimand eachother!!!!

[amy g.]

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents, since I have two children that I believe would qualify as difficult in anybody's book. My oldest had so many inappropriate behaviors, particularly in public.

 

I invested so much time putting her in those situations, dance class, soccer, swim team, horseback riding, girl scouts, tennis, preschool, but I was always right with her, watching, so I could help her think of how to change or behavior, or if she was too out of control, I would take her home, and we would try again next time.

 

Looking back, I realize that I stopped the behavior at the time, but didn't talk about it to death or ever punish her for it afterward. I did talk to a specialist at the public schools about getting her some services to work on social skills. She told me I was doing everything they could do, but imbeded into her real life, and if their public school parents would do a little of that, the schools job would be much easier.

 

No one would guess, meeting her now that she had so many problems. We still have things we need to work on, but she will be 17 next week, and I am still seeing steady improvement. Some things are always going to more difficult for her, but she really tries to do better because she trusts me when I say it will help her in the long run, and she can't help being so completely attached to because of the massive investment I've made in her all of these years.

 

Some of you will remember my anxiety about Miss Bossy's fits. She started talking at 7 months, and by the time she was 1, she would scream, "I HATE you! I did NOT come out of your tummy! This is not your house, get out on the road, get out right now!" or worse she would repeat for hours, "I WANT to get hit by a car!" or "I need you to hurt me. If you loved me, you would hurt me."

 

Talk about scary. Her tantrums were never tied to our telling her no, or not letting her have something. They were just out of the blue. in the middle of them, I would try to get calmer, and calmer as she escalated. I'd physically restrain her if I had to, but tried to keep it from getting to that point.

 

Miss Good noticed that there were certain foods with dye that would always trigger a fit. Putting her on a whole foods diet did help, but I really think that the vital thing we all did that changed her behavior was practically smother her with love. We squeeze and love on her hundreds of times a day. we all tell her how much we wanted her, and how lucky we are to have her in our family.

 

Several friends and family members were scared when I got pregnant with Miss Happy, because they were afraid that Miss Bossy was the kind of child who would hurt the baby. They were afraid that she would have problems because she was used to being the center of attention in our family.

 

In fact, she is very sweet and loving to her, and was able to talk about her feelings in appropriate ways like saying, "Sometimes it just feels like you love her more than me." Then we could discuss how to make her feel better.

 

So even though both daughters had problems that were so different in how they manifest, the solution was just the same. Increased investment, or "Time in".

 

That is my new parenting cure all....more time in.

 

I noticed this week that Miss Beautiful is having some hormonal irritability. I'm going to plan a day to take her shopping and get coffee, and give her a little time in without the other kids.

 

I do not believe you can make a person change as a result of harshness or punishment. I do think that they can love you so much that they they want to emulate your good behavior, and be willing to change to keep from disappointing you.

 

Is it fast? No. Is it guaranteed to work? No. But I believe it is the best shot we have as parents to influence our children, and raise the kind of adults we trust and enjoy spending time with.

[TheAutumnOak]

I do find myself noticing that certain cultures (ethnic or social, such as socio-economic) have stricter standards and across-the-board expectations, regardless of one's sensorial or other type of limitations.

 

 

:iagree:

[Parrothead]

In your very first post you said that the child was being rude because the parent allowed it (in what seemed a not very sympathetic tone, either). That is not nearly the same at ALL as saying it might take many, many times to correct a behavior. I hope you can see how those two statements sound completely different and why the first statement upset people, since at that point you gave no indication you understood that parents might be trying their best and that it might take many, many tries. It might help to re-read your first post.

No, what I said was

No one can be rude to you unless you allow it - including a child. If he isn't taught appropriate behavior (one way or another) he can't give the behavior you want. Truly this is a learned response.

Is not teaching an ongoing process?

[TheAutumnOak]

So it makes me wonder if just being around kids that are rude to parents or just not part of a culture where EVERYONE is respectful of their elders makes kids more likely to be disrespectful. I'm not trying to take the pressure off parents or lay the blame on society, but surely it isn't just the adults who are influenced by the pressure of having well-behaved kids. All very interesting.

 

I think it does make kids more likely to be disrespectful...The thought of saying certain things to my parents never even occured to me because I hadn't seen it done...On the flipside, it makes parents more aware of disrespect when it happens in many forms, so it is addressed much earlier because it is not seen as a normal thing...I could imagine if you grew up seeing children yell at or hit their parents or did it yourself, it would be more normal to you when it occurs...

[MelanieM]

Yes, this is very interesting. I also wonder how much of it is also pressure on the kids themselves.

 

We don't have the Disney Channel, but from what I understand there is a lot of sassy, disrespectful attitude towards parents. And parents whose kids watch the shows told me they see the results in their own kids (so the subsequently ban the shows!). So it makes me wonder if just being around kids that are rude to parents or just not part of a culture where EVERYONE is respectful of their elders makes kids more likely to be disrespectful. I'm not trying to take the pressure off parents or lay the blame on society, but surely it isn't just the adults who are influenced by the pressure of having well-behaved kids. All very interesting.

 

I have absolutely seen this happen, and I know we have restrictions on media around here because my boy absorbs stuff and can't cope with input/output appropriately.

 

I also think it's more than just the modeling of inappropriate behaviour, and perhaps about stimulation in general. We live in a much more stimulating world today than we did a generation ago, and I think that really has an impact on these kids that have sensory challenges. For example, I have chemical sensitivities and if I have to spend time with someone that uses air fresheners like Febreeze (not just houses, but people... that stuff sticks to people like nothing I've ever known!) it causes *huge* emotional issues for me. I feel very overwhelmed and off kilter afterwards from the sensory overload.

 

Then take into consideration the chemicals in food, chemicals in the air, media saturation, crowds, etc. etc. For those that are highly sensitive to these things in can sometimes be a nightmare just to make it through the day. I think this is what happens with a lot of these "high needs" kids... they struggle just to cope moment to moment, and sometimes the collapse just isn't pretty.

[HeidiKC]

And you said this:

 

He gets away with it because you allow it. The first time "jerk" came out of his mouth the most dire of consequences should have been handed out.

 

This is what I'm referring to. You said right here that the parent is allowing it. And implying that dire consequences were not handed out.

 

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this one. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I feel bad that you feel misunderstood by a lot of people. I just thought it might be helpful for you to see why that happened. It's hard for me to understand how you can't see that! But I'm probably not helping at this point.

[Parrothead]

And you said this:

 

 

 

This is what I'm referring to. You said right here that the parent is allowing it. And implying that dire consequences were not handed out.

 

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this one. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I feel bad that you feel misunderstood by a lot of people. I just thought it might be helpful for you to see why that happened. It's hard for me to understand how you can't see that! But I'm probably not helping at this point.

We must have two very different interpretations of what allow means.

 

If Child A says his mom is a bonehead and mom does nothing Child A had gotten away with being rude. Child A has been allowed to be rude. Yes or no?

 

If Child B says his dad is a lardbutt and dad immediately doles out what for that child/family is a dire consequence (this is not the same for every family. I did not say harsh.) Child B has not been allowed to get away with being rude. Child be has not been allowed to be rude. Yes? No?

 

Either a child/person (because the same can be said for adults also) is allowed to be rude or he isn't. I suppose one could be sometimes rude and sometimes not, but for the most part it is pretty black and white. Either there is a rule against being rude or not. If it isn't allowed then the child has not gotten away with anything. He gets in trouble of some sort.

 

Maybe my limited vocabulary is against me.

 

Just to clarify "immediately" above in scenario 2. Again, this can be and is different for each family/child. Generally consequences are doled out within a relatively short time period. Most parents will agree that one does not say, "Come here so I can spank your butt for putting gum in your sister's hair six days ago." Or "Your grounded for six weeks now that a month has passed since you mouthed off to your grandma."

Edited August 1, 2011 by Parrothead

[Osmosis Mom]

Amy G., your points are great. I do that as well. Give one-on-one attention to the child who starts getting out of line in general. I definitely see that some kids will do anything to get some extra approval and love!

[TheAutumnOak]

:iagree:No one can be rude to you unless you allow it - including a child. If he isn't taught appropriate behavior (one way or another) he can't give the behavior you want. Truly this is a learned response. He gets away with it because you allow it. The first time "jerk" came out of his mouth the most dire of consequences should have been handed out.

 

The incident with the Wii - he disrespected you, disrespected the electronic and lied. What happened after he did those things? In my house it would have been the most dire of consequences.

 

It will take more time now, but you can reverse these behaviors. It will take time and effort (lots of effort) because he will balk and he will fight for things to go back to "normal." But you can get a handle on this behavior.

 

I see that this post is coming under fire, but I do understand what Parrothead is saying...The first time is what is mentioned here, not every time...There are certain things that warrant a "first time dire consequence" response...Depending on what you see in that way will determine what you address very seriously the first time it happens...I am not in anyone else's home so I can't say what is or is not done, so if you feel you dealt with a child calling you a name the VERY FIRST time it happened and you are still struggling with that behavior today years later, please post...That is just not the case for the people I know...I am dealing with a lot of stuff I should have done differently when the boys were younger now, but can't think of anything that is occuring now that I have dealt with all along besides just personality issues...

[Janna]

He is by far the hardest of the three. I just cannot believe how uncaring he can be toward us, his parents. The second things don't go his way, he lashes out. He has called both his dad and me a jerk today. I cannot even imagine my other boys saying anything like that. He argues and questions things constantly. I am totally worn out from it. Thanks for listening.

 

My middle son, 9yo, is similar to how you describe Ben. It seems that everything makes him cry and get angry. I am a middle child also, so I have *some* sensitivity to his birth order. Like you mentioned in a previous post, it's amazing how completely different my guy is when he's alone with us: he's polite, patient, isn't argumentative, and is kind to the dog (not that he's mean to the dog otherwise, but he does like to "roughhouse" with her when his siblings are around).

 

Like Jean said in one of her posts, it has been important for my dh and me to figure out "triggers" and to be proactive in avoiding, in as much as we are able, what will trigger an outburst. For example, we know that when ds is tired (something you alluded to, also), he will behave inappropriately. We also know that the more he gets to do whatever he wants to do, the worse he will behave. He gets this "sense of entitlement" attitude very quickly and easily - something I have been striving to get under control because that attitude is NOT ok. This has been a tough balancing act - the giving him attention, but not so much that the sense of entitlement rears its ugly head.

 

Dh and I know that ds's older sister is a very different personality and it's not lost on our middle son. She is very helpful, thoughtful, proactive, responsible, and tender-hearted. Everywhere we go people comment on her - what a help she is, how responsible she is etc...I'm sure this makes ds physically ill sometimes, lol. Then his younger brother is only 3yo, so of course he can do no wrong, right? He's cute, loveable, entertaining - blah, blah, blah. This makes middle ds feel like he "always" is in trouble, or "can't do anything right." It's heartbreaking, really. So we try to remember that middle ds is trying to figure out his place in the family. However, just because we try to be sensitive to his needs (we have one-on-one outings - esp. dh and ds, tangible rewards work better for him than verbal, which work better for dd, and reading to him - something I stopped doing when 3rd child was born and middle son told me through tears last year that he missed it), we also are cognizant of his tendency to manipulate us for more, and, like I said, his entitlement attitude.

 

We have noticed that the more ds gets (such as a new Lego toy, or getting to go somewhere fun - we don't have gaming systems, but if we did, that would be thrown into this category), the worse he behaves. It's a conundrum because we want to do nice things for him, but he doesn't seem to know how to appropriately respond to them. He does so much better on a firm schedule.

 

For example, Saturday, his sister was at a friend's house, so we let ds have a friend over for an overnight. Everything was fine until his friend went home yesterday after church. After his friend left, I told ds he was on "poop patrol" (from the dog). Ds grumbled and groaned and asked why he had to do it and not his sister (who wasn't home and has done it more often than he has), but did as he was told anyway. While he was doing that, I was right there weeding. After about a minute he said, "OK, Mom, I'm done". I looked at him, knowing there was no way it was completed and said, "OK. I'm going to go look. For every piece of poop I find and pick up, you have to pay me a quarter. Do you want to go back and retry before I do?" He paused, looked at me like I was weird because he was certain he had got it all and finally said, "okaaay...?" and headed back out. 30sec. later he again told me he was finished (he also has a laziness issue - it's wrapped up in the sense of entitlement attitude). I stood up, walked over to the yard and $5.75 later, handed him back the baggie to throw away. He told me he didn't have $5.75 to which I told him I would then be charging him interest for every day that goes by that I don't get paid, since that's what happens to adults when we don't pay what we owe (he since found that money in his savings and gave it to me). I am certain that the next time he does "poop duty", he will do it properly and without complaint. He really does need to see that we're serious with him.

 

Another example - last week, we spent many days at the neighborhood pool - something he loves to do and dd was away babysitting (a summer job she has), so I made sure to take him and his brother every chance we had. One afternoon, I asked him to vacuum all the carpeted rooms downstairs. He finished in less than 5 min. I pointed out all the areas that were not vacuumed and told him to redo it. He hemmed and hawed about it, yelled at me that I didn't have to watch him, he could do it himself (!) to which I replied, "obviously not". He hated having me watch every move he made but 20 min. later the downstairs was vacuumed properly. I told him that if he didn't do something right the first time, he'd have to continue to do it until it was done right. Later that day, I explained to him that he will one day have a family of his own and will be a leader in his family. He needs to learn how to lead by example.

 

I feel like it's constant energy being poured out to figure out how to help him know he's loved and appreciated, but not allow him to manipulate and walk all over us.

 

I help out at a food pantry 2x a month and one of those times I make him come with me to help. He sees, too, that dh and I are very involved in our church and serving others in our community. We make a very concerted effort to emphasize serving others and not ourselves, but we know those are just words to him right now. One day, I do believe it will click. He is only 9.5yo (and yours is what? 11yo?). They have lots of years with us still - as someone else pointed out - they aren't done growing up yet. The fact that you're concerned is a good sign to doing something about it. Prayer is a wonderful (and necessary) thing, too.

 

:grouphug:

 

(oh, and as a side note, last year, when ds was at his worst, we signed him up for Tae Kwon Do. That has been one of the best decisions we made. He loves it, he is more respectful, even if only slightly-it's still noticeable to me-and we have a base to call him out on "giving up" (something he does easily) because his coach doesn't allow it and makes the students repeat it frequently.)

[MelanieM]

I am not in anyone else's home so I can't say what is or is not done, so if you feel you dealt with a child calling you a name the VERY FIRST time it happened and you are still struggling with that behavior today years later, please post...That is just not the case for the people I know...I am dealing with a lot of stuff I should have done differently when the boys were younger now, but can't think of anything that is occuring now that I have dealt with all along besides just personality issues...

 

Yep, this is happening here. I posted about it earlier in this thread. My (then 4yo) son heard another boy say "I hate you" and said it to me. There were immediate consequences and discussion about it, and my husband and I made it clear that it wasn't an appropriate way to speak to anyone. Now here we are, two years later, and when he gets really frustrated he will still burst out with an "I hate you!". We still deal with it, we don't blow it off, but it hasn't changed the fact that he does this on occasion. (And he's sorry afterwards, quite obviously doesn't hate us, and understands it's not a kind thing to say.)

 

Now, in hindsight, could it have been better to completely ignore that comment? Maybe. It might have been that ignoring it the first time would have resulted in it being a non-issue forever after. (Though we have others, so it's not like it would have resulted in the perfectly behaved child that never utters inappropriate words.) But of course, that would be the *exact opposite* of what is being suggested here. Which goes to prove that saying "well, it wouldn't happen if you just did X" is just not valid for all kids and all situations.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think it does make kids more likely to be disrespectful...The thought of saying certain things to my parents never even occured to me because I hadn't seen it done...On the flipside, it makes parents more aware of disrespect when it happens in many forms, so it is addressed much earlier because it is not seen as a normal thing...I could imagine if you grew up seeing children yell at or hit their parents or did it yourself, it would be more normal to you when it occurs...

 

I grew up in a culture where you respected your parents. And yes, it was a "it takes a village" culture where everyone around me would have come down on me if I had! The first time I was back in the U.S. and I saw someone disrespect a parent, I expected a bolt of lightning to strike them right there. And I was so surprised when it didn't and the people standing around didn't even blink at it!

[HeidiKC]

I grew up in a culture where you respected your parents. And yes, it was a "it takes a village" culture where everyone around me would have come down on me if I had! The first time I was back in the U.S. and I saw someone disrespect a parent, I expected a bolt of lightning to strike them right there. And I was so surprised when it didn't and the people standing around didn't even blink at it!

 

Wow, that's kind of depressing, isn't it?! I read a great book, "Boys Adrift" ( a MUST-READ for parents of boys) and one thing he mentioned as contributing to the problem of unmotivated boys is the lack of masculine role-models (I think that's what he called it). I think he said that in all cultures (maybe most?) boys have always taught how to be men by older males. These men were looked up to and respected. One example he gave was that years ago in the African-American community old men and young men would gather in pool halls. The boys and young men learned a lot about being men from these older men. Apparently these are no longer a large part of that culture and that valuable resource no longer exists. He gave a lot of other examples, too, but that is one that stuck out in my mind as a part of America disappearing. A community feeling in a big city.

 

I'm getting a bit off track, but in that same chapter he talks about how much the TV shows have changed when it comes to the dads on TV. In the old day it was stuff like Ward Cleaver, Father Knows Best, Andy Griffith. Cheesy and maybe not altogether real (I don't know, I didn't live during the 1950s!), but the father figure was generally shown as a wise man the children looked up to and hated to disappoint. Of course there were exceptions to this, but most dads were portrayed this way. These days we have TV/movie dads like Homer Simpson and the dad from Diary of a Wimpy Kid - idiots that are fun to laugh at, and certainly not respected.

 

So it's rather interesting. And I'm guessing that one reinforces the other - we don' have respect for dad on TV, so it doesn't seem that unusual not to have respect for a real dad, either. People don't respect fathers in our culture as much, doesn't seem outlandish to exaggerate it on TV.

[Nestof3]

I'm getting a bit off track, but in that same chapter he talks about how much the TV shows have changed when it comes to the dads on TV. In the old day it was stuff like Ward Cleaver, Father Knows Best, Andy Griffith. Cheesy and maybe not altogether real (I don't know, I didn't live during the 1950s!), but the father figure was generally shown as a wise man the children looked up to and hated to disappoint. Of course there were exceptions to this, but most dads were portrayed this way. These days we have TV/movie dads like Homer Simpson and the dad from Diary of a Wimpy Kid - idiots that are fun to laugh at, and certainly not respected.

 

So it's rather interesting. And I'm guessing that one reinforces the other - we don' have respect for dad on TV, so it doesn't seem that unusual not to have respect for a real dad, either. People don't respect fathers in our culture as much, doesn't seem outlandish to exaggerate it on TV.

 

While I agree that Homer Simpson is not the best role model, I have to wonder how many dads (and parents in general these days) are like Andy Griffith. Don't get me wrong -- I realize Andy is a movie character (we still love watching those shows though), but honestly, how many dads these days would rather lie around on a couch after work? How many of them have real conversations with their kids? I realize it may be true that in a person's subculture, most dads do this, but I imagine in other subcultures, many dads (and moms too) are very absent, apathetic, uninvolved.

 

While I do not consider dads like the dad on Married With Children to be a great role model, he's probably similar to many dads out there.

 

I'd rather watch the mom from Little House or The Waltons act over what I imagine most modern moms on TV are like any day -- but I'd also rather act like them on a consistent basis. I do find their characters to be people to aspire to.

[Joker]

While I agree that Homer Simpson is not the best role model, I have to wonder how many dads (and parents in general these days) are like Andy Griffith. Don't get me wrong -- I realize Andy is a movie character (we still love watching those shows though), but honestly, how many dads these days would rather lie around on a couch after work? How many of them have real conversations with their kids? I realize it may be true that in a person's subculture, most dads do this, but I imagine in other subcultures, many dads (and moms too) are very absent, apathetic, uninvolved.

 

While I do not consider dads like the dad on Married With Children to be a great role model, he's probably similar to many dads out there.

 

I'd rather watch the mom from Little House or The Waltons act over what I imagine most modern moms on TV are like any day -- but I'd also rather act like them on a consistent basis. I do find their characters to be people to aspire to.

 

My husband is a very involved dad who just likes to hang out with us and he takes flack from male members in both our families and friends. :glare: They honestly think he should aspire to wanting to spend his free time playing golf with them instead of hanging out with his wife and daughters. It's annoying that it's looked at by some as not masculine to want to spend your free time at home. I know not everyone feels this way but he hears it quite often in our circles.

[Nestof3]

I think it does make kids more likely to be disrespectful...The thought of saying certain things to my parents never even occured to me because I hadn't seen it done...On the flipside, it makes parents more aware of disrespect when it happens in many forms, so it is addressed much earlier because it is not seen as a normal thing...I could imagine if you grew up seeing children yell at or hit their parents or did it yourself, it would be more normal to you when it occurs...

 

I've had many conversations with my dad about how respect played out in his household. He never in a million years would have backtalked his parents. He would get beat for such a thing. One time, when he was young, he fired a BB gun at the dog. My grandfather found out about it, placed the gun at the foot of his bed, and he was never allowed to play with it again. While my dad showed much external respect, he had much internal anger and hatred. To this day, while he has love for his deceased father, he still views him as an overly harsh man. He tells stories of having to go to the tree to get a switch and the beatings. My dad didn't become a better boy for the discipline (taking the gun away). He didn't shoot the dog again (didn't have a chance), but he still acted out in other ways, lived a loose life growing up, and finally straightened up sometime in the military. My dad and grandfather never had a great relationship. Once he matured, he treated his parents very well. He took great care of my grandmother before she passed. But, he had little relationship with his dad.

 

I was talking to my mom about Ben yesterday. She knows how he is, and she knows how my other boys are. She reminded me yesterday that I used to call her a b*tch. I remember that now. She yanked the phone out of my wall. She said the only problem she ever had with me was my mouth (sassy she calls it). Her cure was to slap me across the face growing up.

 

I remember feeling a lot of hostility because there was so much injustice in my house (my brother got away with everything and had no responsibility. In fact, to keep the peace, I would clean his room and hang up his clean clothes because if not, my brother would throw wet towels on them, and my mom would get upset.). I also remember never feeling like we could discuss anything (there has never been any talking in my family about anything -- it's either the silent treatment or yelling -- usually silence). I remember bottling everything up inside, getting overwhelmed and then letting someone have it. LOL

 

My brother was smart -- he kept his mouth shut. But, he was also a slob, disregarded the time my mom spent washing and ironing his clothes, walked all over her in many ways, skipped school, got arrested, and the list goes on. He is a fabulous guy now -- hard-working, clean, fantastic father, very self-disciplined, etc. (he's still a little self-centered, but oh well).

 

I was, however, a big help, always did my school work without incident, kept my room clean, helped clean the house without being told, and was other than my sassy tendency, a great kid. I worked from the age 16 and on and was always the favorite employee. Once I matured, I never dreamed of calling my mom a bad name. I'm still helpful in many ways and care very deeply for her.

 

Just rambling, I guess.

[YLVD]

What do you mean by actual answers? I mentioned losing very important privileges--swimming, bowling, and going to a minor league baseball game. He lost them when he couldn't get his behavior under control and was essentially throwing a fit. When he is not in the middle of a rage/fit, he is able to respond appropriately to the threat of a loss of privilege.

 

Is that a better explanation?

 

Actually both of these posts were great, thanks for explaining.