Anglican/Episcopal vs. Lutheran

[ktgrok]

Ok, so I am an Episcopalian. I love the Anglican style of worship, and love the prayer book. I tend towards high church, and actually went through RCIA and converted to Catholicism many years ago, before ending up back at an Episcopal Church for various reasons, mostly practical ones having to do with family. anywho....the Episcopal Church we have attended here is sweet and wonderful and full of love and in a great old historic building, with a lovely priest. However, there are very few children, and no real youth ministry. I feel my son, at 12, is really getting to a point where this is important. The only Episcopal Church that does have a good youth program around here is in a really ritzy neighborhood, and none of us were comfortable there. And DH is not open to attending a Catholic Church. So...that leads me to Lutheran, which is still liturgical, and I believe has some kind of agreement with the Episcopal Church. (ECLA is what I'm looking at.)

 

So...how far am I getting from home here???? I've been to a few Lutheran churches at various times, but they felt a lot more casual than what I was used to. Any thoughts?

[Starr]

The liturgy and music is a little different but they are in communion with each other. Lutheran churches don't "feel" the same to me. I think if you are seriously considering a change you would have to meet with the pastor and attend the church for a few months to really get a feel for it. It might be worth it for the kids or maybe they could attend the youth group there and Sundays at your current church.

[ktgrok]

That's exactly it..it doesn't "feel" the same, when I've been before. But it may be worth a try. Although, the sunday school is at a different time than church, which means 2 hours instead of one....that will be hard to convince my family of. I'm raising heathens I tell you! (that's a joke)

 

Another question: How does the denomination feel about babies/young children in church? I can't see myself using a nursery, and I have a 17 month old.

[ktgrok]

Ok, I am reading on the ELCA website, and the statement on Abortion is truly moving, and describes my position exactly. And they do allow children to partake in communion, which is important to my son. And I just listened to a sermon that although not life altering, had a very good message that my family would agree with. We shall see...maybe my husband will attend with me this weekend.

[Terabith]

I'm a high church Episcopalian who has wound up at an ELCA church for various reasons. The liturgy and music are not the same, but they are very close, and to be fair, I've not found any two Episcopal congregations that feel the same either. The degree of liturgical observance and acceptance of babies and toddlers in nursery just depends on the congregation.....like pretty much any other denom. :D Sorry not to be more helpful.

[GWOB]

Well, the ELCA would have more in common with your more liberal Anglican/Episcopalian churches, while the LCMS would be similar to the conservative side. The ELCA churches I've attended have felt a little less formal, a little less high-churchy than the LCMS churches. Do you consider yourself a conservative Christian? If so, you may be more comfortable in an LCMS church. However, you do not need to be conservative to attend an LCMS church. I'm not. I just like the more liturgical feel of the LCMS.

 

Almost every Lutheran church I have attended (and I've been to ELCA, LCMS, and WELS churches) has encouraged kids to stay in the service with their parents. Our current church does not have any nursery services. It gets a little annoying on THOSE days to have little ones in church with you, but I will always remember what an older lady said to me after a particularly difficult day. She said something to the effect of "Honey, you don't always have to bring your little one out. I like hearing babies in church. It reminds me that the church is growing." I have found this attitude in every Lutheran church.

[Elizabeth in MN]

The ELCA and the Episcopal Church are in communion and have a fair amount in common. If you go to a service things will be similar and different all at once. Now, I live in rural Minnesota so the ELCA churches here are hugely influenced by the ethnic make up of the congregation. One tiny town can have two huge ELCA churchs - one will be Norwegian and the other German. The two will not mix.

 

Theologically there are some differences. I talked with my mother, an Episcopal minister who works extensively with ELCA pastors, about some of those differences. She said that once huge difference is the ELCA emphasis on sin and grace, and another is the extensive use of Martin Luther's teachings.

 

Another thing she brought up is that the ELCA services can be more laid back than your typical Episcopal service. Please keep in mind that we are a Low Church family, so if *we* think it's laid back it might be too laid back for you since you have High Church tendencies.

 

Okay, now to speak to other issues. I so walk your path with you :D My daughter is the youngest member of the church. There are two other teens and that's it. It's hard for her to get to do things like being an acolyte because the other two are kinda higher up the food chain. What I do with her is take her to services, expect reverent behavior and clothing, and try and talk about God with her. I just moved around our Christian home school studies to being informal Bible study. We read a story and talk about it.

 

Growing up I was often the only child if not one of less than a dozen in any given church. Sure, I would have loved a huge community of kids to be my friends and be in some sort of magical Episcopal bubble. Instead I got a great bunch of Alter Guild ladies who taught me how to drink tea with crochet gloves on : ) I am fairly old-fashioned in my church going ways due to that, but it's the only real quirk I have.

 

So, that's my tome of advice!

[ktgrok]

Well, the ELCA would have more in common with your more liberal Anglican/Episcopalian churches, while the LCMS would be similar to the conservative side. The ELCA churches I've attended have felt a little less formal, a little less high-churchy than the LCMS churches. Do you consider yourself a conservative Christian? If so, you may be more comfortable in an LCMS church. However, you do not need to be conservative to attend an LCMS church. I'm not. I just like the more liturgical feel of the LCMS.

 

Almost every Lutheran church I have attended (and I've been to ELCA, LCMS, and WELS churches) has encouraged kids to stay in the service with their parents. Our current church does not have any nursery services. It gets a little annoying on THOSE days to have little ones in church with you, but I will always remember what an older lady said to me after a particularly difficult day. She said something to the effect of "Honey, you don't always have to bring your little one out. I like hearing babies in church. It reminds me that the church is growing." I have found this attitude in every Lutheran church.

 

I'm not particularly conservative, or rather, I don't really need/want a church that is. My husband is definitely NOT conservative. Also, from what I can see LCMS is more of a closed communion, with children not participating until after confirmation, which is not something I really would want.

[GWOB]

I'm not particularly conservative, or rather, I don't really need/want a church that is. My husband is definitely NOT conservative. Also, from what I can see LCMS is more of a closed communion, with children not participating until after confirmation, which is not something I really would want.

 

Understood. I get the reasons behind closed communion, but I think I would prefer to have my kids partake. It really all depends on what your particular hill is to die upon.

 

FTR, I have been to more formal ELCA churches. They can be found. Many have both traditional and contemporary services. Unfortunately for you, traditional services are usually attended by an older crowd.

 

I like the ELCA. Theologically, I probably have more in common with the ELCA than the LCMS. I just kinda ended up in an LCMS congregation. I really liked the formal worship of the local LCMS church.

[Aelwydd]

I'm not particularly conservative, or rather, I don't really need/want a church that is. My husband is definitely NOT conservative. Also, from what I can see LCMS is more of a closed communion, with children not participating until after confirmation, which is not something I really would want.

 

Anglican/Episcopalian here. I think you should visit an ECLA church; though there will be some differences in liturgy and form, FTMP, their theology is very similar. I could definitely see you finding a "home" in the right ECLA church. I agree with you that it would be good to find some place where you ds can be fully engaged in the church community through communion, youth groups, etc.

[WishboneDawn]

So...that leads me to Lutheran, which is still liturgical, and I believe has some kind of agreement with the Episcopal Church. (ECLA is what I'm looking at.)

 

They're in communion with us. I know a local Anglican church that trades ministers with a Lutheran church on a regular basis. :)

 

I haven't gone but it would be interesting to explore it!

[Alessandra]

High church Anglican here. Have you ever visited a OCA (Orthodox Church in America) church. OCA has a lot of converts and tends not to be as ethnic as some other Orthodox churches (varies by parish, obviously). All the Orthodox churches I have attended are welcoming to children and are wonderful liturgically.

 

A nice time to visit Orthodox churches is on Saturday evening (vespers or vespers/matins or it may be called a vigil).

 

I know this is not what you asked, but it could be worth a try, especially as you would not have to take a Sunday morning to visit.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Alessandra

[Chris in VA]

Their teaching on Eucharist is slightly different, but not a deal-breaker (since we are in Communion with each other). Acceptance of kiddos will vary by congregation, as someone else said. After the '79 Book of Common Prayer, all 'Pissy kids who are baptised can take Eucharist--this varies by congregation in the Lutheran church, but I don't know if there's an actual policy they are "supposed to" follow.

 

Oh, and you might want to not call it "open communion" when you are searching--that term actually implies anyone, baptised or not (not confirmed or not) can come to Eucharist. It's not the official ECUSA policy, even tho several churches do offer it.

 

Hope you find something that works for you.

 

BTW, I actually like having SS separate--lets you know they care about adult ed, too, and welcome youngsters. In our church, we do let the under-3rd grade crowd attend their own version of the first half of the service (where we do prayers and readings and creed), then come in for Eucharist. We also do a children's sermon twice a month, after they come in; they gather around the font and the adults listen, too. :001_smile:

 

Oh, thought of something else--lots of families here let babies play in the nursery until Eucharist, then go and get them during the Offertory. Just a nice compromise, and lets Mom have some worship time undisturbed.

[ktgrok]

Their teaching on Eucharist is slightly different, but not a deal-breaker (since we are in Communion with each other). Acceptance of kiddos will vary by congregation, as someone else said. After the '79 Book of Common Prayer, all 'Pissy kids who are baptised can take Eucharist--this varies by congregation in the Lutheran church, but I don't know if there's an actual policy they are "supposed to" follow.

 

Oh, and you might want to not call it "open communion" when you are searching--that term actually implies anyone, baptised or not (not confirmed or not) can come to Eucharist. It's not the official ECUSA policy, even tho several churches do offer it.

 

Hope you find something that works for you.

 

BTW, I actually like having SS separate--lets you know they care about adult ed, too, and welcome youngsters. In our church, we do let the under-3rd grade crowd attend their own version of the first half of the service (where we do prayers and readings and creed), then come in for Eucharist. We also do a children's sermon twice a month, after they come in; they gather around the font and the adults listen, too. :001_smile:

 

Oh, thought of something else--lots of families here let babies play in the nursery until Eucharist, then go and get them during the Offertory. Just a nice compromise, and lets Mom have some worship time undisturbed.

 

My concern is that with sunday school, then the service, that is two hours of trying to keep her occupied, or put her in the nursery. I suppose hubby and I could always walk around and let her run while my son is in sunday school, to wear her out before the service.

[MeganW]

I grew up in a very formal Episcopalian church. It's where my heart is, and where I would like to be. Unfortunately, our local Episcopal church is tiny, and my kids would have been the only ones.

 

Because of that, we have recently become members of the local Presbyterian church. It's not what is right for *me*, but it is perfect for my kids. This church's youth programs are amazing. I see the kids who are graduating and coming back afterward, and they are the kids I want my kids to be associating with, so this is where we are for now.

 

Time enough to go back to the Episcopal church after the kiddos are grown.

 

You may have to look around and find a church that is right for your kids and whose beliefs are close enough, and go there temporarily.

[ktgrok]

I grew up in a very formal Episcopalian church. It's where my heart is, and where I would like to be. Unfortunately, our local Episcopal church is tiny, and my kids would have been the only ones.

 

Because of that, we have recently become members of the local Presbyterian church. It's not what is right for *me*, but it is perfect for my kids. This church's youth programs are amazing. I see the kids who are graduating and coming back afterward, and they are the kids I want my kids to be associating with, so this is where we are for now.

 

Time enough to go back to the Episcopal church after the kiddos are grown.

 

You may have to look around and find a church that is right for your kids and whose beliefs are close enough, and go there temporarily.

 

Megan, thanks for stating what I've been feeling. It helps to here someone else say it. Honestly, I don't WANT to go to another denomination. But...I went to a Presbyterian Church for quite a while when I was young, for really the same reason, lol. I'm hoping at least to find a church that still has weekly communion, I think I'm too set in my ways, and attended churches that didn't for too much of my life, to give that up now.

[MeganW]

Megan, thanks for stating what I've been feeling. It helps to here someone else say it. Honestly, I don't WANT to go to another denomination. But...I went to a Presbyterian Church for quite a while when I was young, for really the same reason, lol. I'm hoping at least to find a church that still has weekly communion, I think I'm too set in my ways, and attended churches that didn't for too much of my life, to give that up now.

 

We still go to the Episcopal church when visiting my parents (maybe 4 times a year?). I actually get choked up and teary taking communion there now. It just feels so different from the teeny plastic cup of juice and Saltine that you take in the pew at the Presby church once every few months.

 

I hear you, I really do. I MISS the Episcopal church so much! But my kids need this for now, and that's more important than my needs at this point. I really encourage you to figure out what is most important in THIS SEASON of your life. It's like homeschooling - you don't have to decide what you are doing for the whole rest of your life right now. Just decide what to do for the next year. And any time your kids are out of town, you can go by yourself to the Episcopal church! :)

[ktgrok]

I just remembered there is one other Episcopal Church in our area. I went once, years ago, and was not impressed, partly because I'm not a fan of using chairs instead of pews. However, if my new options are leave the denomonation, or sit in a chair instead of a pew, I think I can handle chairs. They have a different priest than they did years ago, which is also good, I didn't love the one that was there. It has an attached school, and does seem to have both sunday school and a youth group for my son's age. The school is very expensive, but their website mentions that the church has people of all economic backgrounds, so that is reassuring. And in fact, my husband attended preschool there, if I remember correctly.

 

I think we will go this weekend!

[Carol in Cal.]

Something no one has mentioned is that the hymnodies of the two church bodies are both very rich but have much less overlap than you might expect. If you're into hymns, you might want to look at hymnals of the churches you're considering to see whether your favorites are even present.

 

I'm LCMS, so I know less about the ELCA than others here, so that's all I'll add.

[ktgrok]

Something no one has mentioned is that the hymnodies of the two church bodies are both very rich but have much less overlap than you might expect. If you're into hymns, you might want to look at hymnals of the churches you're considering to see whether your favorites are even present.

 

I'm LCMS, so I know less about the ELCA than others here, so that's all I'll add.

 

thanks! I do have a few favorite hymns, but after attending churches in varoius denominations I appreciate lots of different ones. I don't know if that would be as big a deal to me. But now I'm curious and going to look!

[ktgrok]

Where can I find the hymns?

[Dana]

Where can I find the hymns?

 

Here.

 

I think there's a new hymnal (no longer using the green book) but I haven't been in years. I imagine only the liturgy would have changed but the hymns would be similar.

[Jan in SC]

The hymns should be very similar or the same. One big difference is Come Thou Long Expected Jesus. I always sing it to the Lutheran tune.

 

The ELCA church I grew up attending, is almost word for word Rite II. We have different tunes, and some of it is spoken. We now attend a large Episcopal Cathedral and I can do either ELCA or Epsicopal in my sleep. LCMS is so different, though. The beliefs and liturgy are different.

 

Both churches we frequent have SS at a different time. Your daughter will probably have her own class when she turns two.

[twoforjoy]

The church I attend is a joint Episcopal/ELCA congregation. The pastor is ordained in both denominations.

 

I'm having the same issue with our church not being very kid-friendly, though. Well, it's not that it's not kid-friendly--everybody loves the kids. But there is nothing for them: no Sunday school, very few other kids, not even a place to take them if they get restless during the service. It's frustrating. I've been attending an Evangelical Covenant Church nearby (where a few of our friends go) with the kids, simply because it's got a lot more kids' programs and, while it's significantly more conservative than I am, it's at least still liturgical and their children's ministry doesn't present anything I find totally wrong. But I'm really looking forward to being able to get back to the Episcopal Church when the kids are old enough to sit through and get something out of a service (or to moving and find a more family-friendly Episcopal congregation).