How to Land Your Kid in Therapy

[ktgrok]

Self esteem and self respect are entirely different things. The former is bs and the latter is hard won but worth the struggle. Self respect is not something that can be bestowed upon you from another by virtue of falsely convincing Johnny or Susie that they are able to do anything because they are just so dam* special. Amen to this author.......Reality only bites when you are told your whole life that you are the center of the universe and that mediocrity is fine, just enjoy yourself, have fun and do not worry about actually being good at something.

 

Hmm. Can't there be both? My parents did tell me I was "so **** special" lol, all the time. That I was beautiful, and smart, and very special. They told me they were proud of me, even when I messed up. But...they also had high expectations and would not accept less than my best effort.

 

I don't see why it has to be one way or the other.

[ktgrok]

Ok, kind of weird! I'm quoting myself! :tongue_smilie: But I really wanted to hear what your reaction was to this part of my post. Do you think this may be a disadvantage of homeschooling?

 

All :bigear:s to your opinions on this! :D

 

No. I think SOME conflict, and solving it, and surviving it, is needed. That doesn't mean more is better, lol. If that were the case, then we should all enroll our kids in the worst school around, preferably one they could walk to through gang territory. The everyday conflict of dealing with siblings and parents, playmates, etc should be enough at this age. And as for tests, the point is to have to meet expectations, and I bet yours are higher than public school.

[ktgrok]

When I took my ds to orientation, his advisor thanked me for not following him into her office to go over his course choices. The other parents did. I don't want to help him choose his classes because he is in *college* and starting to make his own way. I will help him move in the dorm, but I won't help him unpack, or make his bed, or anything else for that matter.

 

You can have a close relationship with your children without limiting their development into adults.

 

I had to laugh, because my mom did stay and help me make my bed, and unpack. I was in shell shock over how gross and dirty and small my dorm room was, and I was only 17, and a bit overwhelmed. She didn't say "oh honey, don't worry, we will get you a cleaner room/bigger place, let you live at home." That would have been a mistake. But she DID stay, put on a cheerful face, and helped me clean things and organize things so that by the time she left it felt and looked more homey. I don't think that is hovering, it was caring. I'd do the same thing for an adult friend if they needed it. Just another perspective.

[twoforjoy]

Ok, first of all, no knocking Super Why, lol. That's my favorite. And seriously, I don't see anything wrong with praising a child for figuring out how to solve a problem, which is what the praise on the show is for. That's different from actually solving the problem for them, which I think is more what the article is talking about.

 

I was praised a lot, and I knew my parents were proud of my accomplishments. But, they were MY accomplishments. They didn't help me more than I needed, and if I had messed up, well, that was a learning experience.

 

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with praising kids, either. I mean, you have to think developmentally. Sure, solving what seems like a relatively minor problem isn't a big deal if you're an adult, but if you're a preschooler--the age of Super Why's target audience--then it is a big deal.

 

My problem with Super Why is that I think it misrepresents what a "super big problem" is. ;)

 

Personally, I think the article is silly. It's an example of the problems you want to have. (Or, of making into a "super big problem" something that isn't. ;)) I think most people wish they had the luxury of shielding their child from all of life's harsh realities, but that's just not the way things work out. Which is to say that people for whom this might be a problem have an enormous amount of privilege.

[PiCO]

I guess I'm basically just stunned that anyone actually needs to be told these things?

 

Have you not talked to the average parent these days? You must be hanging out with the right crowd of people!

 

I work with kids... I'm going to print this article up and hand it out to parents.

[G5052]

Have you not talked to the average parent these days? You must be hanging out with the right crowd of people!

 

I work with kids... I'm going to print this article up and hand it out to parents.

 

That was my response as well. I've been wrestling with this because I'm finding that I'm a oddball among some for expecting a level of independence in my kids and allowing them to fail.

[Jenny in Florida]

Have you not talked to the average parent these days? You must be hanging out with the right crowd of people!

 

I would have thought I would know some average parents? But, honestly, I can't think of any parent I know well who wouldn't read that article and say, essentially, "Well, duh." (I would hope we'd be more articulate, but that's the sentiment, anyway.)

[Garga]

I had to laugh, because my mom did stay and help me make my bed, and unpack. I was in shell shock over how gross and dirty and small my dorm room was, and I was only 17, and a bit overwhelmed. She didn't say "oh honey, don't worry, we will get you a cleaner room/bigger place, let you live at home." That would have been a mistake. But she DID stay, put on a cheerful face, and helped me clean things and organize things so that by the time she left it felt and looked more homey. I don't think that is hovering, it was caring. I'd do the same thing for an adult friend if they needed it. Just another perspective.

 

Have you not talked to the average parent these days? You must be hanging out with the right crowd of people!

 

I work with kids... I'm going to print this article up and hand it out to parents.

 

 

 

See...maybe I haven't seen what the article is talking about. I think I've seen the sorts of things in the above post I quoted--general "caring for" one another. If I were dropping off my adult friend at college and they walked into a dirty dorm room and needed to clean it up, I would oh-so be there for her. If my kid walks into the same dirty dorm room, I would also be there for my kid. To me, that's just common courtesy. I wouldn't do it all for my kid, but we'd do it together. And I'd ask him where he wanted his stuff put. I wouldn't take over the operation--but I'd help him.

 

I guess I haven't seen the over-the-top parenting that the 2nd person I quoted must be seeing. Actually, I'm more likely to hear my friends say the sorts of things that we love to vilify in other threads: "Oh, I can't stand being around the kids all day! I can't wait to send them to camp just so I don't have to listen to their complaining. I'll be so glad when school starts."

 

I haven't seen the sorts of parents who actually seem to like their kids and want to be around them all day or help them with anything.

[sewingmama]

I don't buy into the bullying makes you stronger theory. I was bullied relentlessly for all of my high school school life - simple fact - a shy, 12 year old girl will never be a match against a group of street tough girls who are 2 years older. :confused: To this day I have psychological issues I doubt I will ever overcome.

 

In Australia (in SA my state) they just passed a new law that you can go to jail if you bully someone in the workplace (introduced after a young girl committed suicide due to being bullied at her work). So if it is not ok to bully adults at work then why is it ok for kids to be bullied at school so they can "learn to be tough".:confused: If they can recognise the emotional harm and distress that bullying can cause in adults then why can't they recognise and acknowledge it in children too. Shouldn't adults be tougher by virtue of age and experience? So why make laws to protect adults but not kids.

 

My DH is a high school teacher. He once had to deal with a girl who had been raped by another student at the school. That is a "hardship and learning experience" I prefer my kids to stay well away from.

Edited July 11, 2011 by sewingmama

[mommymilkies]

Whatever the parents do, there will be some experts coming along to criticize it.

And whatever the issue the kids face, it has to be something the parents did not do right.:glare:

Homeschooling or not, make no difference.

And for those who claim the homeschoolers are too sheltered, I don't see them leaving their kids to live on the street to learn about the hard "reality" of life either.

Probably my kids are too sheltered ( from the junk of the school). But by the fact that we live here in the N America, we are already living a very sheltered life compare to the rest of the world.

I don't buy into the bullying makes you stronger theory. I was bullied relentlessly for all of my high school school life - simple fact - a shy, 12 year old girl will never be a match against a group of street tough girls who are 2 years older. :confused: To this day I have psychological issues I doubt I will ever overcome.

 

I guess I haven't seen the over-the-top parenting that the 2nd person I quoted must be seeing. Actually, I'm more likely to hear my friends say the sorts of things that we love to vilify in other threads: "Oh, I can't stand being around the kids all day! I can't wait to send them to camp just so I don't have to listen to their complaining. I'll be so glad when school starts."

 

I haven't seen the sorts of parents who actually seem to like their kids and want to be around them all day or help them with anything.

 

:iagree: I think if the most you have to complain about is a feeling of not being continuously "happy" despite a good life, then you should count your lucky stars. I would say your parents did a pretty good job if this is your biggest complaint.

[Susan in TN]

Wow - this article so reminds me of my dh's nephews and neice. Dh's sister was always their "best friend", and they are completely helpless as adults. Her oldest did manage to get married recently and has a child, but suffers horribly from anxiety attacks. Her daughter falsely accused her husband of abuse to justify a divorce (in the eyes of grandma and grandpa, who were the money train), and her youngest who is 20yo can't keep a job or last more than 3 months in any educational setting.

 

On the other hand, can't overlook some of my own occassional coddling...:glare:

[G5052]

In the book That Crumpled Paper Was Due LAst Week, the author suggests making a list of everything someone else does for a teen, then systematically working through the list to have them do it themselves.

 

I walk my ds through things, but still have him do them for the most part. He can do so much more than he thinks he can. It isn't a sink-or-swim proposition, though - I am still there if he really, really needs me. If he is old enough to drive, he is old enough to take care of his own car maintenance, insurance, repairs, etc. He makes (and keeps) his own doctor appointments. He calls to ask me how to do certain things or what he should do, but I still make him do most of them on his own.

 

I'm a community college professor, and constantly deal with young people who somehow don't think that a deadline is a deadline, and that any excuse will do when asking for a make-up. Their sister's baby was in the ER and all twelve family members had to be there. The family went on vacation to Myrtle Beach, and Dad's laptop didn't have the right software. I have to think that they haven't taken the fall themselves very much or don't care if opportunities are lost because of the choices they make. It hapens every semester. These are the same students who never bring a pencil or paper to class, and don't check the online announcements for due dates.

Edited July 11, 2011 by GVA

[Perry]

I have mixed feelings about this article. I absolutely agree that overindulging and extreme helicopter parenting isn't doing kids any favors. But she is drawing all sorts of conclusions about cause and effect without any real evidence.

 

I'm not convinced that people are unhappier now than in the past, or that rates of anxiety and depression are rising. Definitely people are more open about mental health issues, and more people have access to treatment than in the past. Since we don't really have any good historical data it's all conjecture.

 

Some of her examples really bug me.

Bacher isn’t unusual. Wendy Mogel says that colleges have had so much trouble getting parents off campus after freshman orientation that school administrators have had to come up with strategies to boot them. At the University of Chicago, she said, they’ve now added a second bagpipe processional at the end of opening ceremonies—the first is to lead the students to another event, the second to usher the parents away from their kids.

When I went to college there was no such thing as opening ceremonies. Sounds like the school is making a big production for the parents, but then complain when the parents don't immediately leave. They're sending mixed messages to the parents. How are they to know they aren't wanted? I wouldn't have known I was supposed to leave right away. :confused:

 

Her discussion about the choices she gave her son surprise me. Those seemed perfectly acceptable. A choice between the beach or the park is a reasonable choice. Asking the kid what he wants to do today without any parameters is giving him too many choices. Likewise, always telling him we are going to do "x" today without ever letting him have any input or opinion is awfully dictatorial. (Obviously, sometimes-many times- they're going to have to do something just because mom says so, but I'm not talking about that.) I'm wondering what she thinks would be a better way to handle it.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Perry

[kalliemorgan]

I didn't read everyone else's responses, but I didn't notice anything about spirituality in the article? In a world so bent on materialism, I would assume a lack of spirituality could be the root cause of this. Parents knock themselves out to provide physically and from all appearances seem to be "doing the right things." But what about a spiritual void in these kids? Just my thoughts. PS I only scanned the article, so sorry if I missed it mentioning that...

[Hockey Mom]

When I took my ds to orientation, his advisor thanked me for not following him into her office to go over his course choices. The other parents did. I don't want to help him choose his classes because he is in *college* and starting to make his own way. I will help him move in the dorm, but I won't help him unpack, or make his bed, or anything else for that matter.

 

You can have a close relationship with your children without limiting their development into adults.

 

I didn't even take my DD to her orientation. She drove herself, stayed the night by herself (it was over a weekend), and texted me during her breaks. She was the ONLY student at orientation without a parent. :001_huh: During her first break, when she informed me that she was the only one there without a parent, I offered to drive over there, but she would have none of it. She comes home about every 6 weeks or so to hang out and reconnect, but for the most part, she's living her life...which at 19, is what she should be doing. We are her 'soft place to land' IF/WHEN she needs it.

 

I agree with the article.

[Heather in Neverland]

I'm a community college professor, and constantly deal with young people who somehow don't think that a deadline is a deadline, and that any excuse will do when asking for a make-up. Their sister's baby was in the ER and all twelve family members had to be there. The family went on vacation to Myrtle Beach, and Dad's laptop didn't have the right software. I have to think that they haven't taken the fall themselves very much or don't care if opportunities are lost because of the choices they make. It hapens every semester. These are the same students who never bring a pencil or paper to class, and don't check the online announcements for due dates.

 

This is so true and I think some professors are becoming numb to it. I had to order a book for my last class. It did not arrive in time. We had a test over the first few chapters that I bombed because I did not have the book. The professor asked me what happened and I told him.

 

He said "you should have told me. I would have let you take the test after you got the book."

 

I said "I am an adult. I knew I needed the book. I should have ordered it earlier to make sure it arrived on time."

 

This is grad school and these professors are so used to hearing 5 million excuses why someone needs a deadline extension that they now just extend the deadline on their own.

 

Example #2

my 5yo niece is in karate. She was supposed to test for her next belt. She was very ill on the day of testing. When she got better she went to class and the instructor just handed her the belt and told her "I know you would have passed any way."

 

My brother was furious. He made his daughter give the belt back until she could set for it like everyone else. I wish more parents would hold their kids to a higher standard.

[Audrey]

People do need to be told! Play any computer game for kids (anything from Pbskids, for example) and every time you get something right, out comes the confetti and trumpets, 'Good job!' 'great!' 'Excellent work!' at every step.

 

I make fun of Super Why all the time. Super job, super you!

 

I know people in real life who think I am mean because I don't tell my kids good job or the like when they eat. My view is, the reward for eating is not being hungry any more. If my kids needed a cheerleader to tell them that, I'd be seriously disappointed in them!

 

 

We do that, too -- making fun of the "aren't you super!" trend. When any of us do something that should have been easy but for some reason we just didn't get it, or when we do something easy and say "hey I did it" or some such thing, the others of us will clap like you would for a toddler who has just pooped in the potty for the first time and say "Yea! Person'sName! Super big boy/girl!"

 

Sometimes I do that just to break the tension of a particularly tough math lesson, too. Sometimes a good laugh is just the ticket.

 

Not that we don't praise a true accomplishment --- we definitely do, but it needs to be praiseworthy. I think you lessen the value of real accomplishments when EVERYTHING is praiseworthy. It kind of goes back to something I posted in another thread. We don't do people a favour by enabling them -- whether that be enabling bad choices, or enabling lack of effort, or enabling an over-inflated sense of self-esteem.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Audrey

[Heather in Neverland]

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with praising kids, either. I mean, you have to think developmentally. Sure, solving what seems like a relatively minor problem isn't a big deal if you're an adult, but if you're a preschooler--the age of Super Why's target audience--then it is a big deal.

 

 

 

I've never seen the show but the article is not speaking about praising your kids for doing something really well... it is speaking against giving them praise for doing a crappy job. It mentions how we reframe "failure" into a "good try". My ds (7yo) was doing math problems online today and when he got one wrong it clapped for him and said "Nice try!" I would prefer a simple "incorrect".

 

I had to laugh at the example of the principal dealing with kids throwing sand at each other and how she had to sit them down and "talk through" their feelings, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah...

 

As an elementary school principal I am famous at my school for saying to squabbling kids, "If you don't need stitches or a cast, then work it out." I asked my older ds what he thought about when a teacher wants to sit the two of you down and talk through your feelings. He said "Well, I kind of wish they would just stop talking and dragging it out. It's over already. Sheesh."

 

I believe that kids should be praised when they have ACCOMPLISHED something (even if it is something small like solving a really tough math problem that has been giving them trouble) but they should not be praised for doing what is EXPECTED of them (like making their bed).

[twoforjoy]

It mentions how we reframe "failure" into a "good try".

 

I'm not sure why that's a problem in many cases. It depends on the "failure." It also depends on the kid. I've got a perfectionist. He gets really, really upset if he doesn't do things exactly right: to him, right now, everything is black and white, and he either did it perfectly or he failed miserably. My job as a parent is to help him learn to reframe his own expectations, and often that does mean looking at things as a "good try" rather than as a failure.

 

I believe that kids should be praised when they have ACCOMPLISHED something (even if it is something small like solving a really tough math problem that has been giving them trouble) but they should not be praised for doing what is EXPECTED of them (like making their bed).

 

Again, I'm not sure. You don't need to gush over a kid doing what they're expected to do. But, personally, I know I'd feel pretty unappreciated if my DH only praised me on things he considered "above-and-beyond" accomplishments, and just felt that homeschooling, making dinner, housecleaning, entertaining the kids, etc., were just things I was expected to do. And I know DH would feel unappreciated if I only praised him on the above-and-beyonds. He needs to know that I value the everyday stuff he does, and think it's pretty great. And, I do. I think it's great that he gets up every morning to go to work even though he doesn't really enjoy his job that much, and I have to remember to sometimes tell him that.

 

Honestly, I think most kids don't get enough praise. We are sending kids negative messages all of the time. I don't think we should praise them for doing things that are obviously wrong or bad--I'm not going to praise my son for taking a toy from his sister--but I do think most kids are getting much less praise than they should be. And I also think that most kids aren't being told enough that they are valuable just for being who they are, apart from anything they do.

 

Now, sure, you can mess up a kid by doing that if you make it out that they are wonderful and special just for being themselves, and other people aren't. But I think you can instill in children their high worth as individuals while also teaching them that other people have that same high worth.

 

Anyway, that said, I just disagree with the idea that people become self-deluded about their own talents because they were praised too much. There are other factors at work. My mother is one of the most self-deprecating people I know. She has a sister who believes she can do no wrong. They were raised in the same household and went to the same schools. My father has two siblings who, like him, seem to have a pretty grounded self-image, and a brother who is one of those "I'm always right and great" people. Again, same parents, same schools. I see it in my students. Students who went to the exact same schools and in some cases grew up in very similar homes show up with wildly different assessments of their own abilities. Some consistently underestimate their own abilities, others consistently overestimate them.

 

Personally, I don't think consistently overestimating your own abilities is simply (or even usually) the product of too much praise. Most of the time, my students who overestimate their own talents are among my worst students and have the most limited critical thinking ability. I think their inflated self-image is probably more likely a self-protective reaction to being told they *aren't* good enough and a product of a limited ability to see things from other perspectives and just a part of their personality. Just like, I don't think my students who consistently underestimate their own talents (I was a student like that) do so because of a lack of praise, but because they are overly critical of their own effort, think others judge more harshly than they do, and, again, because it's just part of their personality.

[twoforjoy]

I'm a community college professor, and constantly deal with young people who somehow don't think that a deadline is a deadline, and that any excuse will do when asking for a make-up. Their sister's baby was in the ER and all twelve family members had to be there. The family went on vacation to Myrtle Beach, and Dad's laptop didn't have the right software. I have to think that they haven't taken the fall themselves very much or don't care if opportunities are lost because of the choices they make. It hapens every semester. These are the same students who never bring a pencil or paper to class, and don't check the online announcements for due dates.

 

I have this issue, too, but I don't think it has to do with a culture of too much praise or too much concern for children's happiness. I think it has to do with shifting ideas about education, particularly higher education, and especially the idea of student as consumer. The customer is always right, after all. Once students start seeing their education as a product they are purchasing--and, given the high price of college education, I can't totally blame them for that--then the instructor becomes a service worker paid to provide them with the services they want. And, unfortunately, more and more administrators are backing students in that view, in order to keep their tuition money coming in.

 

FWIW, I've decided this semester to include a section in my syllabus about what is and is not appropriate college behavior, particularly regarding e-mail communication. I'm teaching the remedial writing class so usually about 90% of the class are first-semester students, and most of them are first-generation college students. I figure I'll be doing their future instructors a favor if I let them know right away that it is not okay to e-mail your professor asking a question about something that can be found on the syllabus or at 11 p.m. the night before a paper is due insisting that they read over your draft (and then telling them the next day that you can't turn your paper in because they didn't respond to you).

[Renee in NC]

I had to laugh, because my mom did stay and help me make my bed, and unpack. I was in shell shock over how gross and dirty and small my dorm room was, and I was only 17, and a bit overwhelmed. She didn't say "oh honey, don't worry, we will get you a cleaner room/bigger place, let you live at home." That would have been a mistake. But she DID stay, put on a cheerful face, and helped me clean things and organize things so that by the time she left it felt and looked more homey. I don't think that is hovering, it was caring. I'd do the same thing for an adult friend if they needed it. Just another perspective.

 

There is a difference between helping because of caring and hovering. Some of it is in attitude and some is just plain personality. In your scenario would be fine helping, but not unpacking and cleaning while my ds sat around playing on Facebook. The difference is between treating the college student like you would treat an adult (peer) and treating them like a 7 year old.

[Renee in NC]

I didn't even take my DD to her orientation. She drove herself, stayed the night by herself (it was over a weekend), and texted me during her breaks. She was the ONLY student at orientation without a parent. :001_huh: During her first break, when she informed me that she was the only one there without a parent, I offered to drive over there, but she would have none of it. She comes home about every 6 weeks or so to hang out and reconnect, but for the most part, she's living her life...which at 19, is what she should be doing. We are her 'soft place to land' IF/WHEN she needs it.

 

I agree with the article.

 

This was not the regular orientation for students (he'll do that in August.) It wasn't an overnight thing - it was only for students that were part of this particular financial aid program and he needed me for that (since they aren't "on their own" for that until 24.:tongue_smilie:) In August, when regular orientation is happening, I don't plan to be there.;) I'll help him move his stuff (because I have more room in my van) and then I will go home. I'm not above stepping in when he really needs/wants me (that soft place to land) but I don't volunteer to do much and most times I try and talk him through what *he* can do to fix a situation.

 

I figure if he can go overseas on his own, he can do most anything else.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Renee in FL

[JenninMN]

I didn't read everyone else's responses, but I didn't notice anything about spirituality in the article? In a world so bent on materialism, I would assume a lack of spirituality could be the root cause of this. Parents knock themselves out to provide physically and from all appearances seem to be "doing the right things." But what about a spiritual void in these kids? Just my thoughts. PS I only scanned the article, so sorry if I missed it mentioning that...

 

:iagree: I was wondering this myself.