I will admit that I have never submitted to my husband...

[Nakia]

As the op, I want to thank you all so much for such a thoughtful and respectful conversation!!

 

As I stated before, I am only posting about my marriage and how it works. I make no judgements about how other marriages work. I mean, if both of you are happy and healthy, then who am I to judge?

 

We have just never gotten to a point where I needed to submit to my husband. I honestly don't even know what that would look like for us because it is very foreign to us. When decisions need to be made, we make them together. It has never come to a point where we couldn't agree causing me to have to submit to his decision. My husband is a very strong man, but he has no desire to be head of me or "in charge". We work together, as a team, a partnership, as one.

 

I love the bible, and I do believe it to be the word of God. I believe my marriage is operating in the way that God intended for it to. Is it perfect? Of course not. There have been many times that I have known I was doing something that wasn't honoring Patrick or God. Those times, I have clearly felt the Holy Spirit telling me to "shape up". If our marriage becomes something that isn't honoring to God, then I have no doubt that we will both know it.

[Nakia]

I believe the Bible verses on structure of marriage reflect the culture of Bible times. Times when pederasty, fluid sexuality, expected male infidelity and the institutional subjugation of women was prevalent. I believe that Jewish\Hebrew culture was primarily responsible for changing that and transforming the status of women and elevating marriage with integrity.

 

The Proverbs 31 wife worked in beautiful conjunction with her husband. She was independent, autonomous, and equal.

 

Jesus, in whom there is no male or female, further transformed status.

 

I believe the Christian Bible supports mutual submission to each other, inspired by Christ. No human is an intercessory between me and God. I stand before Him, next to my husband, holding his hand, looking to Him.

 

You painted a beautiful picture! Thank you for sharing!!

[Nakia]

Do you think that when the letter to the Ephesians was written a woman would have discussed such issues with her husband in the way we do today in western culture?

 

Absolutely not.

[Aelwydd]

I accept that that is your opinion, but I very strongly disagree. Would you prefer me to renounce Christianity as an antiquated, misogynistic religion? Because that is what your interpretation makes Christianity appear to be. Do you really mean to set up this dichotomy: accept a literal and infallible interpretation of the Bible or don't be a Christian?

 

Galations 3:28:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

 

If all of us are one in Christ, none is above or beneath another. Therefore, this power dynamic of God -> husband -> wife, doesn't make sense.

 

Should I divorce my husband so that I can be my own agent and have this setup: God -> me? Or do I fall back under my dad's authority: God -> my dad -> me. Am I less of a person because I am female? Does God really require me to have a male authority figure in my life (father, husband, brother, son, etc.)? I'm sure that He does not.

 

I heart you.

[Jeanne in MN]

What you describe sounds like a Biblical example of submission. Submission isn't a wife doing whatever her husband wants without having a voice. It is basically unselfishness. The husband is to love the wife and in so doing will put her needs first. The wife is to submit to the husband because she considers his needs over hers. And when both work together (husband loving and wife submitting) it is beautiful. It isn't about one person getting his/her own way, but about sacrificing needs/wants for the sake of your partner.

 

Honestly, I never truly understood submission until after I was married. It sure isn't hard to put my husband's wants and needs first when he puts my wants and needs before his own;)

 

:iagree:

[GardenTenders/Kim]

I don't honestly equate submission with an overbearing husband. That has nothing to do with my feelings against it.

 

No matter how loving, wonderful and fair a husband is, in a marriage like that, a man's decision, judgment..whatever..is more valuable based on his gender. That makes no sense to me and I find it utterly offensive.

 

It seems like there are a lot of things said in the bible. I always wonder how people choose what to follow and what not to follow.

 

I understand what she was saying. I believe the whole Bible,..... I think sometimes it's a matter of understanding and sometimes not each of us are at a point where something will be revealed to us. Christians are always growing. Does this make sense?

 

Welcome Dustybug.:seeya:

Edited July 10, 2011 by MommaBear
changed

[tntgoodwin]

What if a husband physically or emotionally abuses his wife? Should she submit to that?

 

I don't think anyone can follow that passage literally, unless they have a husband that treats them fairly. Even then, I doubt they follow it literally 100% of the time.

 

 

 

Okay, I'll say it. I don't take Paul literally, and do not choose to follow that part.

 

Boy, IME these in the middle positions can be tough. You have both the atheists and the fundamentalists coming after you.

 

Do you take Peter literally?

 

For us, we believe I am to lead, and she is to submit, as I submit to Christ. Her submittal is not dependent on me. Peter (IIRC) even says for a wife to submit lovingly to a non-believing husband, that he may be won to the gospel because of the wife. Christ submits to the Father, even unto death, I submit to Christ and the Father, she submits to all of us, our children submit to her, and me, and Jesus, and God. At least, that is the theory. :P In practice it doesn't always work out that way. My wife also is not a fan of Paul, she thinks he was full of himself. Lol. She doesn't wear skirts very often, even to church, and I have never seen her hair in a bun or her wearing a head covering.:) We do take the Bible as literal and relevant to today. For example, we don't believe women should be head pastors or elders. But we don't attempt to force that on others or judge them for that. For example, my own grandmother is a divorced Baptist preacher!

[GardenTenders/Kim]

I also want to add, I have read the bible for submissive wifes, the Fascinating Womanhood... I also read her young girls version which wasn't as strong as the Womanhood one, if memory serves me right....

 

Anyway, IMHO Andelin, the author, does much to damage what submission means really. In a study group I was in one woman was told that her husband drank because she wasn't submissive and fascinating enough.

 

I would share with my husband and he always said it was bullarky. But continue I did. My husband has a habit of forgetting or putting things off, we spent (and sometimes I still wonder) several years in angst over this. When he would forget or put something off until very late, or I would end up doing it so it would be done on time, that I was doing something wrong as a wife. This bugged my husband and would upset him. He would try to assure me that it had nothing to do with me, but rather it was something he had always dealt with. It was just a part of who he was.

 

So I can understand why some do view submission with hatred or venom, but I also want to assure you, that such thoughts are not, in my personal experience, the norm in a Husband Headship house, at least not ours.

 

I am against book burning, but a big part of me thinks this book should be. It has hurt many. That woman I mentioned should never have been told her husbands mental and alcoholic issues were because of her behavior or lack there of. Drinking in excess is a personal issue and no one can make someone stop except the person doing the drinking.

[Erica in PA]

I think you may be missing an important point. There aren't just two positions among Christians. There aren't just two positions among people who take the Bible literally either. I think it may be a tad insulting to state that those who don't agree with a certain viewpoint don't like what the Bible teaches in those texts. They may fully believe what the Bible says in those texts, but their interpretation of what the text is saying may differ.

 

I don't mean to be insulting, but I understand that some might feel that way. I have found other comments in this thread insulting/uncomfortable/inaccurate as well, but I'm looking past that in an attempt to stay on point. As I said, it can and should be discussed as to what the Bible means when it says submit-- but it *does* say submit, more than once! So to deny the Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands, when it clearly does, is disingenuous at best. Much of the conversation on this thread doesn't even quote or refer to the Bible passages in question at all-- it's more like, "Do you like the idea of submitting to your husband? I don't, so I don't do it." It's more a discussion about whether we like the idea personally than about what the Bible actually teaches- which is troubling when there are so many Christians posting on the topic. That is why I felt compelled to post-- it doesn't matter whether we like an idea or if it tickles our ears-- God's ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. For Christians, God's Word should be the ultimate authority, not our preferences.

[Erica in PA]

What if a husband physically or emotionally abuses his wife? Should she submit to that?

 

I don't think anyone can follow that passage literally, unless they have a husband that treats them fairly. Even then, I doubt they follow it literally 100% of the time.

 

 

 

Okay, I'll say it. I don't take Paul literally, and do not choose to follow that part.

 

Boy, IME these in the middle positions can be tough. You have both the atheists and the fundamentalists coming after you.

 

As I've said, there should be discussion as to what submission means, and what spouses should do in different circumstances. While I think it's a grave error to not accept any part of the Bible as the inspired, inerrant Word of God, I would rather hear comments like yours about Paul's letters upfront. A lot of people skip over that point, and it's difficult to have a conversation about the details when you're coming from such different places. So the difference really isn't so much about men and women, but what do you think of God's Word-- is it something we can pick and choose what we like from, or is it God's authoritative Word to mankind with no error or flaw?

[Erica in PA]

.

 

Boy, IME these in the middle positions can be tough. You have both the atheists and the fundamentalists coming after you.

 

Believe me, it's no picnic being a "fundamentalist" either. LOL Especially on this board!! :tongue_smilie:

[Joanne]

I hate that when people hear the word "submit" they are quick to assume this means that my husband is just barking orders at me while I lie like a doormat. We are equals as people and to God, we are just different. We discuss things, he asks for my opinions and considers them, but ultimately he makes the final decision(which most of the time is one that we both are okay with=compromise). My husband is very loving, respectful, and kind to me.

 

 

:

 

Just to be absolutely clear:

 

My reaction isn't because of a reaction to "submit". It is not because I assume an abusive, or even authoritarian husband "barking" orders or a passive, doormat wife. Explaining to me how "your" function of wifely submission is loving, kind, Godly, or respectful doesn't change things.

 

It's not a matter of not understanding about "biblical submission".

 

You won't find me throwing out red herring or straw man challenges to wife-only submission such as "what if he's abusive\alcoholic\name dysfunction.

 

I am against "wife only" submission theoretically, and doctrinally. I believe the wife-only submission model is inherently an inappropriate distribution of power and against the spirit of the law, and against God's design for human relationships.

[Veritaserum]

Just to be absolutely clear:

 

My reaction isn't because of a reaction to "submit". It is not because I assume an abusive, or even authoritarian husband "barking" orders or a passive, doormat wife. Explaining to me how "your" function of wifely submission is loving, kind, Godly, or respectful doesn't change things.

 

It's not a matter of not understanding about "biblical submission".

 

You won't find me throwing out red herring or straw man challenges to wife-only submission such as "what if he's abusive\alcoholic\name dysfunction.

 

I am against "wife only" submission theoretically, and doctrinally. I believe the wife-only submission model is inherently an inappropriate distribution of power and against the spirit of the law, and against God's design for human relationships.

 

:iagree: Yes! The God -> man -> woman hierarchy is just not a healthy dynamic and it is not consistent with Jesus's message of equality and love.

 

I'm a "spirit of the law" kind of Christian because I recognize that as humanity matures, God's teachings can adapt. I have more basic, black-and-white rules with my young children. As they mature and are capable of deeper understanding, they see more gray and the rules change somewhat. The fundamental spirit of the rules is still there, but the application is different because the audience is different.

[YLVD]

I understand what she was saying. I believe the whole Bible,..... I think sometimes it's a matter of understanding and sometimes not each of us are at a point where something will be revealed to us. Christians are always growing. Does this make sense?

 

Welcome Dustybug.:seeya:

 

That does actually make sense. :001_smile:

[Marylou]

As I've said, there should be discussion as to what submission means, and what spouses should do in different circumstances. While I think it's a grave error to not accept any part of the Bible as the inspired, inerrant Word of God, I would rather hear comments like yours about Paul's letters upfront. A lot of people skip over that point, and it's difficult to have a conversation about the details when you're coming from such different places. So the difference really isn't so much about men and women, but what do you think of God's Word-- is it something we can pick and choose what we like from, or is it God's authoritative Word to mankind with no error or flaw?

 

I agree.

 

Also, trying to wrap my mind around what the "spirit of the law" would be for Genesis 3:16.

 

And, people can be equal in worth, but unequal in role.

[Joanne]

I agree.

 

Also, trying to wrap my mind around what the "spirit of the law" would be for Genesis 3:16.

 

And, people can be equal in worth, but unequal in role.

 

Genesis is not a problem when you consider it one of many creation stories documented by humans to explain the existence of mankind, the universe, the existence of evil\bad things and spiritual truth.

 

Spiritual truth does not have to be literal to me in order to be accurate, timeless, real, and meaningful.

 

Adam and Eve, as useful prototypes, reflect the thinking of ancient times. The spiritual truths of the Christian Bible transcend culture, dogma, and bias. "Picking and choosing" is not an issue when you have the Christian Bible in context of Truth, metaphorically offered and written by human hands.

[Veritaserum]

I agree.

 

Also, trying to wrap my mind around what the "spirit of the law" would be for Genesis 3:16.

 

And, people can be equal in worth, but unequal in role.

 

It is commonly thought that painful birth is the curse for Eve’s sin of eating the apple in the Garden of Eden. Genesis 3:16 tells us, “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.†(King James Version)

 

John 16:21 also tells us that birth is painful. In fact it is mentioned several times in the Bible that birth is painful. Yet, as Helen Wessel discovered when she researched the original biblical language in writing The Joy of Natural Childbirth: Fifth Edition of Natural Childbirth and the Christian Family, the word translated as ‘pain’ (estev) for all the passages regarding birthing is used elsewhere in the Bible…but translated as ‘toil’. Wessel asserts that before interpretations beginning between in about 200-400 A.D., there was no mention of Eve’s curse. (Wessel, 1994)

 

http://fearlessbirthing.blogspot.com/2009/05/mass-media-and-birth.html

 

Also, I have a different understanding of Eve's role in the Fall. My denomination believes that Adam and Eve were given two conflicting commandments: don't eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge AND multiply and replenish the earth. Adam and Eve couldn't bear children unless they were mortal, so Eve ate the fruit and gave some to Adam. That necessitated leaving the garden, but it enabled them to keep the commandment to have children. Leaving the garden required Adam and Eve to work, including the work of harvesting food and bearing/raising children. So, my denomination does not teach the Curse of Eve because she made the only logical choice. :)

[justamouse]

Just to be absolutely clear:

 

My reaction isn't because of a reaction to "submit". It is not because I assume an abusive, or even authoritarian husband "barking" orders or a passive, doormat wife. Explaining to me how "your" function of wifely submission is loving, kind, Godly, or respectful doesn't change things.

 

It's not a matter of not understanding about "biblical submission".

 

You won't find me throwing out red herring or straw man challenges to wife-only submission such as "what if he's abusive\alcoholic\name dysfunction.

 

I am against "wife only" submission theoretically, and doctrinally. I believe the wife-only submission model is inherently an inappropriate distribution of power and against the spirit of the law, and against God's design for human relationships.

 

 

I'm going to have to post fast here, cause I ahve to get to church.

 

Last night I was thinking of this thread while I was watching Dr. Scott Hahn talking about covenants on EWTN.

 

What you are saying here really lines up with what he was explaining the marriage covenant as-that a covenant is not a contract.

 

It's an exchange of PERSONS. Man and woman, wife and husband, and, in a full exchange, there is not one greater than the other.

 

That's a TOTALLY different thing than wifely 'submission' which is unequal in all ways. And, actually, would ..negate? the covenant? You can't covenant unequally.

 

BUT, mutual submission, IS inline with the marriage covenant.

[YLVD]

Just to be absolutely clear:

 

My reaction isn't because of a reaction to "submit". It is not because I assume an abusive, or even authoritarian husband "barking" orders or a passive, doormat wife. Explaining to me how "your" function of wifely submission is loving, kind, Godly, or respectful doesn't change things.

 

It's not a matter of not understanding about "biblical submission".

 

You won't find me throwing out red herring or straw man challenges to wife-only submission such as "what if he's abusive\alcoholic\name dysfunction.

 

I am against "wife only" submission theoretically, and doctrinally. I believe the wife-only submission model is inherently an inappropriate distribution of power and against the spirit of the law, and against God's design for human relationships.

 

Exactly

 

That's what I was trying to say earlier in the thread but did not say it as well.

[FaithManor]

Since the passages containing "wives submit yourselves to your husbands", is philosophically contradictory to "For this reason a man shall leave his parents and cleave unto his wife and they shall become one flesh" and "In Christ there is no male or female", as well as looking at the life of Christ and His elevated treatment of women in a patriarchial society, I have concluded that our interpretation from Greek to English or our understanding of how these verses are to be applied is erroneous.

 

A man cannot be "over" or have authority over someone he is to be "at one" with...someone who is to be his own flesh, 50% of him, 50% of the relationship. The two shall become one is very clear and the Aramaic is not subjective. The Greek is actually quite emphatic, "In Christ there is no male or female". The verbs and nouns used in that text are very straight forward. So, there must be something missing that we fallible humans don't get because if a gender based authority over another is given but yet in Christ there is no gender, we have a problem in application.

 

There are prophecies against Ancient Greece, Egypt, Ninevah, the Assyrian Empire, against specific rulers, etc. in the Bible. I recognize that those words are not directed to me personally, but to a specific point in time, to a specific situation, etc. I can still learn from these passages. As with all scriptures, God is very revealing about who He is and it enhances my understanding and relationship with Him when I read and study and grapple with those passages. But, He also gave me a brain for understanding and it is also clear that I am not in Ninevah, nor am I Nebudcanezzer, or Darius, or Pharoah so how I apply them in my life is very different. Since there appears to be a historical context surrounding many of Paul's instructions to married couples and yet the words of Christ and other Apostolic writers appear to be in conflict, then I must assume that we moderns don't get it and I wouldn't presume to attempt to teach as a tenant of faith or marriage, something that is clearly not fully understood and which also stands in clear opposition to other verses.

 

This is where the Holy Spirit needs to be allowed to rule. There are personal convictions and these are NOT hard and fast theologies. They are beliefs and paths God has brought us to in life to refine us, make us more like Him, to be making a new creation of us.

 

The picture of marriage given us in the Bible is so clear as a picture of unity, spiritual and physical oneness, of Christ to His Church...that subjugating one gender to another appears to contradict the clarity of the picture God has painted of us. So I think it is wonderful if wifely submission, however that is practiced, works well for a couple and brings honor and glory to God, but I also think that preaching it as a one-size-fits-all doctrine when there are more passages which promote a different view, is unwise and possibly inserting man/humankind into a marriage relationship in which the Holy Spirit is working differently towards unity. The focus is not on who has authority because any couple in right relationship with their Creator, is submitting BOTH to the Lordship of Jesus. Therefore, authority becomes a moot point and I think that the picture that Joanne paints of standing hand-in-hand facing God as ONE in Him, is the ultimate goal and clearly fulfills God's design for marriage that "the two shall become one flesh."

 

Faith - you may now commence firing sequence :D

[lovelaughs_times_three]

My sister would LOVE this thread. She doesn't homeschool, so she's missing out on all of this! ;)

 

I have to say KUDOOS to all of you!!!! This is a very touchy subject for a lot of people. And after pages and pages, it is still very civil and interesting in here!!!! That's so cool!:001_smile:

[GardenTenders/Kim]

I would not want to be in a marriage where things were 50/50. I give 100% as does my husband. This 50/50 thing is just wrong. I know most of you don't mean each of you only give 50% but this kind of talk is one of the things that the young hear and then think they don't need to work hard in a marriage and so divorce when the going gets tough.

 

I have talked to so many young divorced or separated men and women it's sad. No I am not a counselor, though I do have a degree in human services and several certificates in related fields...step families, life span studies, etc. So I am not without some understanding. No my masters is not in the field either, unless HR counts.... LOL sometimes it does with all the conflict.

 

anyway, I digress, the idea of 50/50 just ruffles my feathers and no one, it seems, understands that marriage isn't and never will be 50/50. Sometimes in a successful and loving marriage one partner gives 150 or even 200%. This does not mean anything except a love like no other. My aunt gave 200% to my Uncle Marvin after his stroke. She cared for his daily needs, changed his wet bed sheets, etc. She never gave a thought to giving more than her share. Her love for him made her submit to his needs. She gave up her own needs in many cases because of a deep love for him. She did this for several years. How many of you here would willingly do this? Regardless of what you think submit means.

 

We women are told to be like the Proverbs 31 wife. Frankly she was so stinkin busy, with things she wanted to do, that I have no idea how she found time for a potty break, but in that passage I see nothing about the submission that many here are discussing.

 

I will include the NIV version here because most seem to read it.

 

10 [a]A wife of noble character who can find?

She is worth far more than rubies.

11 Her husband has full confidence in her

and lacks nothing of value.

12 She brings him good, not harm,

all the days of her life.

13 She selects wool and flax

and works with eager hands.

14 She is like the merchant ships,

bringing her food from afar.

15 She gets up while it is still night;

she provides food for her family

and portions for her female servants.

16 She considers a field and buys it;

out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

17 She sets about her work vigorously;

her arms are strong for her tasks.

18 She sees that her trading is profitable,

and her lamp does not go out at night.

19 In her hand she holds the distaff

and grasps the spindle with her fingers.

20 She opens her arms to the poor

and extends her hands to the needy.

21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;

for all of them are clothed in scarlet.

22 She makes coverings for her bed;

she is clothed in fine linen and purple.

23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,

where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.

24 She makes linen garments and sells them,

and supplies the merchants with sashes.

25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;

she can laugh at the days to come.

26 She speaks with wisdom,

and faithful instruction is on her tongue.

27 She watches over the affairs of her household

and does not eat the bread of idleness.

28 Her children arise and call her blessed;

her husband also, and he praises her:

29 “Many women do noble things,

but you surpass them all.â€

30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;

but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.

31 Honor her for all that her hands have done,

and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

 

Verse 28 really bring into consideration what "submission" in the Biblical sense might be. If a man is "beating" his wife into submission (as is implied by many what the term means) would he really be in praise for her. The passage mentions honor too. Honor has little to do with the type of submission many here describe. She seems to have her own money to spend as she pleases (does this jive with your view of what Biblical submission is?). Another thing that strikes me as being the direct opposite of what some view Biblical submission of the wife as, the Proverbs 31 husband has COMPLETE confidence in her. She sounds like she can come and go as she pleases, has her own money, is praised by her family and the town folks, her wisdom is most likely sought by others, etc. This does not sound like a woman who is browbeat. I don't know, I'm just saying.

[CrossFitMama]

I came here to post about the Proverbs 31 woman not being a submissive in the sense much of history translated the "wives, submit" passage, but PP described it so well that I just want to say:

 

:iagree:

[Nakia]

Since the passages containing "wives submit yourselves to your husbands", is philosophically contradictory to "For this reason a man shall leave his parents and cleave unto his wife and they shall become one flesh" and "In Christ there is no male or female", as well as looking at the life of Christ and His elevated treatment of women in a patriarchial society, I have concluded that our interpretation from Greek to English or our understanding of how these verses are to be applied is erroneous.

 

A man cannot be "over" or have authority over someone he is to be "at one" with...someone who is to be his own flesh, 50% of him, 50% of the relationship. The two shall become one is very clear and the Aramaic is not subjective. The Greek is actually quite emphatic, "In Christ there is no male or female". The verbs and nouns used in that text are very straight forward. So, there must be something missing that we fallible humans don't get because if a gender based authority over another is given but yet in Christ there is no gender, we have a problem in application.

 

There are prophecies against Ancient Greece, Egypt, Ninevah, the Assyrian Empire, against specific rulers, etc. in the Bible. I recognize that those words are not directed to me personally, but to a specific point in time, to a specific situation, etc. I can still learn from these passages. As with all scriptures, God is very revealing about who He is and it enhances my understanding and relationship with Him when I read and study and grapple with those passages. But, He also gave me a brain for understanding and it is also clear that I am not in Ninevah, nor am I Nebudcanezzer, or Darius, or Pharoah so how I apply them in my life is very different. Since there appears to be a historical context surrounding many of Paul's instructions to married couples and yet the words of Christ and other Apostolic writers appear to be in conflict, then I must assume that we moderns don't get it and I wouldn't presume to attempt to teach as a tenant of faith or marriage, something that is clearly not fully understood and which also stands in clear opposition to other verses.

 

This is where the Holy Spirit needs to be allowed to rule. There are personal convictions and these are NOT hard and fast theologies. They are beliefs and paths God has brought us to in life to refine us, make us more like Him, to be making a new creation of us.

 

The picture of marriage given us in the Bible is so clear as a picture of unity, spiritual and physical oneness, of Christ to His Church...that subjugating one gender to another appears to contradict the clarity of the picture God has painted of us. So I think it is wonderful if wifely submission, however that is practiced, works well for a couple and brings honor and glory to God, but I also think that preaching it as a one-size-fits-all doctrine when there are more passages which promote a different view, is unwise and possibly inserting man/humankind into a marriage relationship in which the Holy Spirit is working differently towards unity. The focus is not on who has authority because any couple in right relationship with their Creator, is submitting BOTH to the Lordship of Jesus. Therefore, authority becomes a moot point and I think that the picture that Joanne paints of standing hand-in-hand facing God as ONE in Him, is the ultimate goal and clearly fulfills God's design for marriage that "the two shall become one flesh."

 

Faith - you may now commence firing sequence :D

 

I agree 100%.

[BlsdMama]

because it's truly never come up. When we need to make a decision, sometimes we talk it out, sometimes we argue it out, and sometimes we just automatically know that the other is more informed and would make the best decision, so we go with it.

Being willing to go with someone else's decision IS submitting, lol. It's essentally saying, "Okay, fine, I give. You feel about this strongly, or it's important to you, or I'm just done talking about it so we'll go your way." Submission is SUCH a hot button item, but I've found most of the time it's because the definition is all screwed up between the debaters.

 

My husband belongs to me as much as I belong to him. He is to look out for MY well being more than his own as I am to look out for him than MYSELF. And to be fair, "submitting" can be pretty easy at the end of the day if you can ask yourself, "This man I'm married to - doesn't he ALWAYS put the welfare of his family first?!?" If the answer is yes, then isn't easier to concede?

[BlsdMama]

Since the passages containing "wives submit yourselves to your husbands", is philosophically contradictory to "For this reason a man shall leave his parents and cleave unto his wife and they shall become one flesh" and "In Christ there is no male or female",

 

Wouldn't the perfect picture of this be similar to the Trinity in that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are truly one and the same, cleaved together and yet separate? And there is the picture of the Son doing the Father's bidding?

[Nakia]

Being willing to go with someone else's decision IS submitting, lol. It's essentally saying, "Okay, fine, I give. You feel about this strongly, or it's important to you, or I'm just done talking about it so we'll go your way." Submission is SUCH a hot button item, but I've found most of the time it's because the definition is all screwed up between the debaters.

 

My husband belongs to me as much as I belong to him. He is to look out for MY well being more than his own as I am to look out for him than MYSELF. And to be fair, "submitting" can be pretty easy at the end of the day if you can ask yourself, "This man I'm married to - doesn't he ALWAYS put the welfare of his family first?!?" If the answer is yes, then isn't easier to concede?

 

I don't think that the bolded portion of your post is particularly healthy. Or maybe it's just the way you worded it that sounds kind of "off" to me. To me it speaks of a power struggle with one person having to stop talking and give up. We've never come to a decision like that. How is that healthy? Maybe I am misunderstanding your point.

[Nakia]

 

anyway, I digress, the idea of 50/50 just ruffles my feathers and no one, it seems, understands that marriage isn't and never will be 50/50. Sometimes in a successful and loving marriage one partner gives 150 or even 200%. This does not mean anything except a love like no other. My aunt gave 200% to my Uncle Marvin after his stroke. She cared for his daily needs, changed his wet bed sheets, etc. She never gave a thought to giving more than her share. Her love for him made her submit to his needs. She gave up her own needs in many cases because of a deep love for him. She did this for several years. How many of you here would willingly do this? Regardless of what you think submit means.

 

 

 

 

Your Uncle Marvin is a very blessed man. God bless your aunt for her devotion to him. "In sickness and in health, until death parts us". That's what I signed on for. I pray we are never faced with what your aunt and uncle are going through, but if we do, I will do my best to care for Patrick. If I can't, I will find someone to help me.

[GardenTenders/Kim]

Your Uncle Marvin is a very blessed man. God bless your aunt for her devotion to him. "In sickness and in health, until death parts us". That's what I signed on for. I pray we are never faced with what your aunt and uncle are going through, but if we do, I will do my best to care for Patrick. If I can't, I will find someone to help me.

 

And that is submission. :001_smile: in part anyway. BTW Uncle Marvin has been gone for 3 yrs now and Aunt Jenny has moved forward in her life, but she never for a moment regrets what she did, she doesn't even see that some would have thought her insane, even when the state came in and tried to limit her time doing for him. Signing up for better or worse, sickness and health is submitting your own will or desires for the sake of the man or woman you have pledged to love. I just personally don't see the evil, though I know it does exist.

 

:001_smile:

[Dustybug]

 

Welcome Dustybug.:seeya:

 

thank you!

[Joanne]

I would not want to be in a marriage where things were 50/50. I give 100% as does my husband. This 50/50 thing is just wrong. I know most of you don't mean each of you only give 50% but this kind of talk is one of the things that the young hear and then think they don't need to work hard in a marriage and so divorce when the going gets tough.

 

 

anyway, I digress, the idea of 50/50 just ruffles my feathers and no one, it seems, understands that marriage isn't and never will be 50/50. Sometimes in a successful and loving marriage one partner gives 150 or even 200%. This does not mean anything except a love like no other. My aunt gave 200% to my Uncle Marvin after his stroke. She cared for his daily needs, changed his wet bed sheets, etc. She never gave a thought to giving more than her share. Her love for him made her submit to his needs. She gave up her own needs in many cases because of a deep love for him. She did this for several years. How many of you here would willingly do this? Regardless of what you think submit means.

 

 

IMO, the content of this is different than the hierarchal *structure* of a marriage. Who serves more, works more, submits more, sacrifices more changes over the course of any healthy relationship.

 

That is separate from the structure; your post relates to function.

[Marylou]

Wouldn't the perfect picture of this be similar to the Trinity in that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are truly one and the same, cleaved together and yet separate? And there is the picture of the Son doing the Father's bidding?

 

Exactly. Like Philippians 2. "He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (typing from memory).

 

I don't like these threads because many posters over and over again equate submit to subjugate. Two completely different action verbs.

 

If I see a female police officer on the street, I know that neither of us has more worth/value than the other. However, if she says to me, "Stop right there!" Guess, what? I stop right there! She (assuming she is on duty and is really an officer) has authority over me. This is only an example . . , I am NOT saying husbands and wives live in a police state!

 

And I am not saying that a Christian woman who refuses to submit (or admits it on a public forum :D) is not a Christian. I just think she's missing out of (I think) the biggest way to demonstrate the Christ/church relationship to the world. Once again, submission is not subjugation.

 

from the same Ephesians 5 . . He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-

 

I'm glad I have a husband who doesn't think that (in blue) was just for the culture of the day :001_smile:.

[Nakia]

Exactly. Like Philippians 2. "He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (typing from memory).

 

I don't like these threads because many posters over and over again equate submit to subjugate. Two completely different action verbs.

 

If I see a female police officer on the street, I know that neither of us has more worth/value than the other. However, if she says to me, "Stop right there!" Guess, what? I stop right there! She (assuming she is on duty and is really an officer) has authority over me. This is only an example . . , I am NOT saying husbands and wives live in a police state!

 

And I am not saying that a Christian woman who refuses to submit (or admits it on a public forum :D) is not a Christian. I just think she's missing out of (I think) the biggest way to demonstrate the Christ/church relationship to the world. Once again, submission is not subjugation.

 

from the same Ephesians 5 . . He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-

 

I'm glad I have a husband who doesn't think that (in blue) was just for the culture of the day :001_smile:.

 

 

 

I had no intention of arguing when I started this thread, but I find myself feeling defensive. I never said "I refuse to submit to my husband." I said it has NEVER been an issue and that our marriage does not work that way. I have judged no one whose marriage works differently except to say that a specific example up thread did not sound particularly healthy to me. Yet, those of us in marriages that don't operate with the husband as the ultimate head of the household and making all decisions have been accused of not believing the whole bible and not being the right kind of wife. Sometimes I wonder if it is possible on this forum to have a discussion about how we do things without being judged by others.

 

The police officer example doesn't work. God didn't create the relationship between citizens and police officers. He did create the relationship between husband and wife. I believe my marriage honors God.

[Nakia]

And that is submission. :001_smile: in part anyway. BTW Uncle Marvin has been gone for 3 yrs now and Aunt Jenny has moved forward in her life, but she never for a moment regrets what she did, she doesn't even see that some would have thought her insane, even when the state came in and tried to limit her time doing for him. Signing up for better or worse, sickness and health is submitting your own will or desires for the sake of the man or woman you have pledged to love. I just personally don't see the evil, though I know it does exist.

 

:001_smile:

 

 

I read your post too fast and didn't pay attention to the past tense. I pray your Aunt Jenny is abundantly blessed! :grouphug:

[YLVD]

Being willing to go with someone else's decision IS submitting, lol. It's essentally saying, "Okay, fine, I give. You feel about this strongly, or it's important to you, or I'm just done talking about it so we'll go your way." Submission is SUCH a hot button item, but I've found most of the time it's because the definition is all screwed up between the debaters.

 

My husband belongs to me as much as I belong to him. He is to look out for MY well being more than his own as I am to look out for him than MYSELF. And to be fair, "submitting" can be pretty easy at the end of the day if you can ask yourself, "This man I'm married to - doesn't he ALWAYS put the welfare of his family first?!?" If the answer is yes, then isn't easier to concede?

 

But, don't you do the same..put the welfare of your family first? One could say that it should be easy for him to submit to you, yes?

 

I'm not saying that he should. I disagree with the whole premise of it, whether male or female. Just curious about this though

[YLVD]

Exactly. Like Philippians 2. "He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (typing from memory).

 

I don't like these threads because many posters over and over again equate submit to subjugate. Two completely different action verbs.

 

If I see a female police officer on the street, I know that neither of us has more worth/value than the other. However, if she says to me, "Stop right there!" Guess, what? I stop right there! She (assuming she is on duty and is really an officer) has authority over me. This is only an example . . , I am NOT saying husbands and wives live in a police state!

 

And I am not saying that a Christian woman who refuses to submit (or admits it on a public forum :D) is not a Christian. I just think she's missing out of (I think) the biggest way to demonstrate the Christ/church relationship to the world. Once again, submission is not subjugation.

 

from the same Ephesians 5 . . He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-

 

I'm glad I have a husband who doesn't think that (in blue) was just for the culture of the day :001_smile:.

 

I don't think that anyone is missing out on anything by not having a man be an authority over them.

[*********]

from the same Ephesians 5 . . He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-

 

I'm glad I have a husband who doesn't think that (in blue) was just for the culture of the day :001_smile:.

 

 

 

A. MEN.

[justamouse]

 

The picture of marriage given us in the Bible is so clear as a picture of unity, spiritual and physical oneness, of Christ to His Church...that subjugating one gender to another appears to contradict the clarity of the picture God has painted of us. So I think it is wonderful if wifely submission, however that is practiced, works well for a couple and brings honor and glory to God, but I also think that preaching it as a one-size-fits-all doctrine when there are more passages which promote a different view, is unwise and possibly inserting man/humankind into a marriage relationship in which the Holy Spirit is working differently towards unity. The focus is not on who has authority because any couple in right relationship with their Creator, is submitting BOTH to the Lordship of Jesus. Therefore, authority becomes a moot point and I think that the picture that Joanne paints of standing hand-in-hand facing God as ONE in Him, is the ultimate goal and clearly fulfills God's design for marriage that "the two shall become one flesh."

 

Faith - you may now commence firing sequence :D

 

Not firing, applauding. :D

[BlsdMama]

But, don't you do the same..put the welfare of your family first? One could say that it should be easy for him to submit to you, yes?

 

I'm not saying that he should. I disagree with the whole premise of it, whether male or female. Just curious about this though

 

 

Yes, Sydney, you could say that exact same thing. :)

 

Ephesians Chapter 5

 

Instructions for Christian Households

 

21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.â€[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

 

 

 

So many think we must defend the Bible. Voddie Baucham said once, "You don't DEFEND the Bible. You just stand back..." There's more but he likened it to defending a lion. You don't defend a lion. You just release it and stand back.

 

 

:D

 

But notice, the call of the husband seems, to me, FAR harder than the call of the wife, IMO. He is to balance serving, providing, leading, submitting, and know when / where/ how to balance all of those roles as God would have him do.

 

But you are mostly going to hear of the role of the WIFE on the forum as there are few Christian husbands posting here but many Christian wives and many YOUNG Christian wives which tends to make them very, um, soapboxy. :) Which is a good thing - this passion, but as it tempers in their lives it will be a compassionate soapbox instead of a blinding, hot tempered one. For, "man's anger does not bring about the righteous life God desires."

 

But Sydney, I have to ask do you really disagree with the entire premise of it or do you disagree with the word submissive? Because truly shouldn't we all be submissive to one another? A willingness to state our beliefs or voice our opinions and then stand back and let the other person state theirs? And then in the case where it won't kill me to give in, to take the selfless role and give when and where I can (non sin-issues) because this compassion, the willingness to put the other person's thoughts/feelings ahead of our own need to please self is good, no?

 

I liked the comment I read, I forget who, who differentiated between submit and subjugate. I think often the two are confused. But to submit is to love the other person more than myself, to not remind myself of their role, but to remind myself that I do not exist to please self, but to please God and to lessen MY will of self.

[Joker]

But Sydney, I have to ask do you really disagree with the entire premise of it or do you disagree with the word submissive? Because truly shouldn't we all be submissive to one another? A willingness to state our beliefs or voice our opinions and then stand back and let the other person state theirs? And then in the case where it won't kill me to give in, to take the selfless role and give when and where I can (non sin-issues) because this compassion, the willingness to put the other person's thoughts/feelings ahead of our own need to please self is good, no?

 

I liked the comment I read, I forget who, who differentiated between submit and subjugate. I think often the two are confused. But to submit is to love the other person more than myself, to not remind myself of their role, but to remind myself that I do not exist to please self, but to please God and to lessen MY will of self.

 

I have no problem with the word submission or even admitting I have at times submitted to my dh. My problem is when I hear others say its biblical for dh to be head of the household and for him to get final say. That's just not how it works here, not how it worked for my parents and not how my grandparents did things, either. There are times I submit and there are times dh submits - no one ever gets "final say". We work it out together. Dh just said he would actually hate to be told he now has final say.:tongue_smilie:

[BlsdMama]

I don't think that the bolded portion of your post is particularly healthy. Or maybe it's just the way you worded it that sounds kind of "off" to me. To me it speaks of a power struggle with one person having to stop talking and give up. We've never come to a decision like that. How is that healthy? Maybe I am misunderstanding your point.

 

Hm. Well, I'm thinking of it in this situation:

 

"Honey, we should paint the house."

"Mmm... Okay."

"I like red."

"Really? Blech. Red is okay but I really like blue."

"Oh, I'm just in love with this red."

"Really red?"

 

Now in this situation obviously someone IS going to submit - give in. There are two completely opposite opinions. Either the first person will compromise, meaning no matter how much they LOVE red, they'll give in, or the person who feels less strongly (blue) will give in. You could debate it to death, but ultimately there will be a submission. Even a compromise will be a submit, but on the part of both parties. Does that make sense?

 

Truly, I think in a healthy marriage you don't see the submissive part as much because it isn't a "martyr" type thing. It's two healthy adults constantly looking out for the health and welfare (emotionally and physically) of one another. But as women, we DO tend more towards control/controlling behaviour - ever heard Dr. Laura :D and I think that we have a tendency to focus on nagging and/or manipulating our husbands to our will. I think it is a far healthier thing to die to self. What about issues where you (as the wife) have strong feelings? I should think that every submissive wife here with a healthy marriage/husband has had this... And the ability to appeal and TALK to your husband must give him pause. After all if you have a wife who is generally agreeable and capable and sweet and compassionate and she comes to you saying, "Honey, I love you, but truly, if you paint the house red, I will vomit," he would think twice would he not? :001_huh: Submission doesn't mean, "You are the master and I am your dog. Now I'll go sit in the corner." IMO, submission means, "I love you. I respect you. I love God. I will put your needs / wants before my own." And ideally, in every marriage, you would see the husband do the same. But ultimately I am responsible for MY accountability/actions/thoughts before God and I am NOT responsible for his or for nagging him into what I feel his role should be. Does that make sense?

[UnsinkableKristen]

It's two healthy adults constantly looking out for the health and welfare (emotionally and physically) of one another.

 

 

:iagree:

[Hedgehog]

Ephesians Chapter 5

 

Instructions for Christian Households

 

"Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ..."

 

To my way of thinking, this is the start of Paul's teaching about the attitudes and behavior of people in family relationships - he begins with the general principle that in a Christian household, each member should submit to one another. As I understand it, this is a question of looking out for and caring for one another, putting their wishes above your own. You don't need to worry about having your own needs met, if the rest of your family are doing it for you (and vice versa). It seems to me that it is an exercise in looking outwards and seeking the good of others - "whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me".

 

 

But notice, the call of the husband seems, to me, FAR harder than the call of the wife, IMO.

 

This :iagree: with completely. I am not asked to actually die for my husband, but the implication is that he should be prepared to die for me.

 

 

IRL, both dh and I fail regularly to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ - sadly, we are too selfish. Also, it is all too easy to look out for number 1 - out of fear, often - when no-one else is showing any care towards oneself. IMO, it is not specifically the wife's responsibility to start the ball rolling when it comes to submission, even though Paul chooses to talk to wives first. I mean, he had to pick one or the other, right? If he had chosen to instruct husbands first, would we have a problem with that, because we expected our husbands to always be the first to submit to us/show love to us when things had gone pear-shaped?

 

In all honesty, I have a lifetime's work ahead of me, just dealing with my own failings. It is enough for me to focus on whether I am becoming a character that God is pleased with.

[justamouse]

Again, the whole HISTORY of the time is not applied? Why?

 

PBS, history of the rights of women in first century Rome.

 

Not much information exists about Roman women in the first century. Women were not allowed to be active in politics, so nobody wrote about them. Neither were they taught how to write, so they could not tell their own stories.

 

Whoa! what a great time!

 

Not only that, What church was the letter written to? Why? What was going on in that church to warrant that letter?

 

How come all of that is dismissed? Taken out of context any scripture can mean anything.

 

 

And, also remember that the slaves were also told to submit to their owners.

 

Douay-Rheims Bible

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

 

Anyone own any slaves? Are they submitting to you?

 

How come the correction applies is always toward the woman, and not the man on these boards?

 

How about Men, are you loving your wives unto death? not that they are here, but ARE they?

 

ETA:

 

FWIW, do I submit? I don't HAVE to. Not meaning 'he doesn't make me', or that 'I choose not to' meaning he's never even put me in a position where it came down to that. Never. He fully respects me and I him. We don't need to roll that way, and, if you have to, I would guess as to the health of the relationship. And, one of the reasona I married him is that I can go toe to toe with him and he respects what I have to say.

Edited July 11, 2011 by justamouse

[Marylou]

I had no intention of arguing when I started this thread, but I find myself feeling defensive. I never said "I refuse to submit to my husband." I said it has NEVER been an issue and that our marriage does not work that way. I have judged no one whose marriage works differently except to say that a specific example up thread did not sound particularly healthy to me. Yet, those of us in marriages that don't operate with the husband as the ultimate head of the household and making all decisions have been accused of not believing the whole bible and not being the right kind of wife. Sometimes I wonder if it is possible on this forum to have a discussion about how we do things without being judged by others.

 

The police officer example doesn't work. God didn't create the relationship between citizens and police officers. He did create the relationship between husband and wife. I believe my marriage honors God.

 

Wow, Nakia :confused:. I never inferred that your marriage doesn't honor God! :001_huh:.

 

So I guess you can give your opinion that something sounds "unhealthy" up thread, but I can't give mine about thinking you might be missing out on something? Just doesn't seem fair to me.

 

In regards to your last paragraph see Romans 13.

 

Good night.

[Nakia]

Wow, Nakia :confused:. I never inferred that your marriage doesn't honor God! :001_huh:.

 

So I guess you can give your opinion that something sounds "unhealthy" up thread, but I can't give mine about thinking you might be missing out on something? Just doesn't seem fair to me.

 

In regards to your last paragraph see Romans 13.

 

Good night.

 

 

Oh, my apologies. I didn't realize you were trying to help me. :rolleyes:

[Audrey]

Oh, my apologies. I didn't realize you were trying to help me. :rolleyes:

 

 

No. She's proselytizing to you.

[Nakia]

No. She's proselytizing to you.

 

I know. I was being sarcastic. That doesn't translate well over the internet, huh? ;)

[Audrey]

I know. I was being sarcastic. That doesn't translate well over the internet, huh? ;)

 

 

No. I got you. I just thought you were being too subtle, and me? I'm doomed anyway, eh? ;) :D

[Nakia]

No. I got you. I just thought you were being too subtle, and me? I'm doomed anyway, eh? ;)

 

 

:lol: