FaithManor Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Faith, actually my husband would tell you that he has no problem being called "catholic", because the name of the Eastern Orthodox is also the Orthodox Catholic Church, but to use it would confuse people as there is a group calling themselves that as well, and then you have the Eastern Rites and Western Rites of the EO and RC, etc. And I know Catholics that have no problem with the term Orthodox, because they consider themselves to be orthodox ;) But for simplicity's sake, we use EO and RC to avoid confusing the rest of the world around us and to make discussion much easier on everyone else, unless we are specifically discussing only EO or RC. You know, I was raised Protestant, have been in many Protestant churches of various sorts (many not wanting to be associated with the others), etc, and this is the first time I've EVER run into ANYONE that has an issue with the term Protestant or claimed that it was an out dated term. Wow. I'll toss out my dictionary. I'm very sorry I have offended you. Please forgive me. In attempting to clarify, I have only muddied the waters and apparently there are some very hurt sisters in Christ here. I am very, very profoundly, deeply saddened that I have contributed to this. I will not contribute to this any longer and am unable to adequately articulate my beliefs and the history of my faith. I shall relegate myself, for the purposes of this board, to being exclusively secular. So, henceforth, you can think of me as Faith the secular homeschooler and I will refrain from muddying the theological waters. Again please forgive me for offenses I have made. They were not intentional, but in the spiritual realm, even unintentional offenses are still that, offenses and I am in need of forgiveness as are all sinners. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 You don't muddy anything, Faith. And you certainly don't offend anyone. You're a very gracious woman. Type on! a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I'm very sorry I have offended you. Please forgive me. In attempting to clarify, I have only muddied the waters and apparently there are some very hurt sisters in Christ here. I am very, very profoundly, deeply saddened that I have contributed to this. I will not contribute to this any longer and am unable to adequately articulate my beliefs and the history of my faith. I shall relegate myself, for the purposes of this board, to being exclusively secular. So, henceforth, you can think of me as Faith the secular homeschooler and I will refrain from muddying the theological waters. Again please forgive me for offenses I have made. They were not intentional, but in the spiritual realm, even unintentional offenses are still that, offenses and I am in need of forgiveness as are all sinners. Faith I'm not offended by you, Faith. I'm just perplexed a bit at changes in definition. But then I was the kid that used the term "gay" with it's original definition, not knowing about homosexuality :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I think I go to different support groups than you do. I tend towards casual mom support groups. At various times I have talked w/women who share the same faith as I, those who don't and those whom I have no idea what their beliefs are. Our conversations have ranged from being all about homeschooling to being more personal in nature, even including matters of faith. It really depends on the people I am with. I've had no issues with others in these settings and as far as I know, they have had no issues with me. Perhaps people feel more freedom to talk about spiritual matters in our region of the country. It probably does depend on what type of group it is I guess. And I'm actually fighting to stay on this side of the issue. Because you DO have a point. I'd like to say, "well, if it's a co-op then..." but even then some sort of SOF might be appropriate as they do inform others what they might see in a history or science class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) ETA: Aaaaagh, I finally caught up on the thread and saw that everybody had moved past this topic. Please feel free to ignore. I'm deleting it now. Edited July 15, 2011 by Sharon in Austin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 So, henceforth, you can think of me as Faith the secular homeschooler and I will refrain from muddying the theological waters. Faith Well, Faith, then you will need to change your name. Obviously. (kidding) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 The reason for using the term in this way, it seems to me, is so as to distinguish the people/groups described in this way from the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Churches, and various Christian churches/communities whose origin is unrelated to the events in 16th-century Europe (e.g. Monophysites, etc.). Would you, speaking as a historically aware Lutheran, find this use of "Protestant" objectionable? Is there a different term or expression you feel would work better in referring broadly to the different large branches/movements of Christianity? Or would you say it would be better to abandon such general expressions and use only specific expressions? I think that there are several reasonable choices. One is to use the term Protestant but stop identifying it with characteristics that don't apply to all in that umbrella, like age of reason baptism, lack of the Real Presence, etc. Another is to use people's specific denominations in discussions--on the premise that if we can do that for Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox we can do it for Confessional Lutherans, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 ETA: Aaaaagh, I finally caught up on the thread and saw that everybody had moved past this topic. Please feel free to ignore. I'm deleting it now. Now we're going to be wondering what you had to say. Not fair.:crying: :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 That's because you weren't living in hot-Lanta with me, silly! a Lol...that would do it, all right. At least, if it's anything like living over in Save-annah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Actually, we're not. This is a very diverse board. There are Muslims, athiests, Jews, agnostics, witches, Bhuddists, wiccans, deists, pastafarians - you name it. Oh, and there is Bill. At any given time, any member of the board will wade into a discussion. asta Um. Bill might be offended that you didn't use his exact term. :D And I totally forget what piece of brilliance that was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesmere Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) This whole thread started with a conservative, supposedly "fundamentalist-type, BJU-type" group requiring their members to sign their SOF. The majority of posts here have been extremely mean-spirited calling these Christians, brothers and sisters in Christ, bigots, ugly, divisive, etc... And I have, without success, tried to say that while most of us do not agree with their isolationism, we can still love them as brothers and sisters in Christ. That did not seem to go over well. .. . Say what you may about BJU, they have their faults, but if you were to go onto their campus, you would be amazed at the friendliness of their students. . Holly, who is really saddened by all of this Holly, Again, no one in this thread (to my knowledge) is saying that BJU or fundamentalists members can't be friendly. I am not saying that many of them aren't Christians, even though they draw pretty narrow lines about who belongs and who doesn't. I have BJU-grad, fundamentalists friends that are very sweet, and most do not hold to the racist, bigoted teachings sometimes found in that fellowship. That said, I still disagree with them on most of their doctrines, but that's another story. Once again, it is not mean-spirited to call someone a bigot if their views promote bigotry and frankly, that remark was out of line. It is a statement of fact and a necessary criticism to call someone who is anti-____ or racist a bigot. It puzzles me that you call people extremely mean-spirited when all they are doing is rightly pointing out social and religious injustice, prejudice, and yes, bigotry. I've said this to you before -- no one is saying that and that is why you have been "without success". You are arguing a point that was part of the discussion. Please, I hope you will seriously consider this, Holly. I'm trying to be patient, am still saying this gently, but you don't seem open about this. There is a big difference between taking a mature, critical (which is not a negative term) look at fundamentalism and having an immature, hateful, divisive response to the bigotry and divisiveness promoted in that circle. Please stop assuming that we have responded in a mean-spirited way. (BTW, I'm well aware of those who have responded divisively to the fundamentalists and this is a completely different discussion.) ETA: No, the OP started with a SOF that was from a "baptist" group. I have no idea if it was fundamentalist. I've seen similar SOFs from fund. and non-fund. groups. I just explained how some, just some fundamentalists use the terms from the SOF. And something worth repeating -- see below: Criticism is not always negative and without love. Many times, it's out of concern for others. Edited July 15, 2011 by Clairelise spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) This whole thread started with a conservative, supposedly "fundamentalist-type, BJU-type" group requiring their members to sign their SOF. The majority of posts here have been extremely mean-spirited calling these Christians, brothers and sisters in Christ, bigots, ugly, divisive, etc... And I have, without success, tried to say that while most of us do not agree with their isolationism, we can still love them as brothers and sisters in Christ. That did not seem to go over well. I did grow up in a bubble, went to Bob Jones University myself, and this forum has actually been my first experience with those outside of my doctrinal faith. (Our current church is Christian Missionary Alliance, while doctrinally the same as BJ, it is extremely non-divisive with other groups of Christians. We believe through Christ that it is possible to get along!) So, this being my first experience with other denominations, I am extremely saddened by the spirit of this conversation. It is nothing but labels and divisiveness. The very people who criticize BJU and others like them (Pensacola Christian College -- Abeka) for being divisive, are the very people that I have seen the most divisiveness from. Say what you may about BJU, they have their faults, but if you were to go onto their campus, you would be amazed at the friendliness of their students. I was fed up with their petty rules (I like jeans and contemporary music!), and I don't like their isolationism, but they are still my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I love them. Holly, who is really saddened by all of this I'm not sure what that goes to prove. I was listening to a radio documentary last night about a Canadian lady who went to South Africa, pre-Apartheid to study giraffes. She lived for a time on a farm where the elderly owner was incredibly kind to her and extremely fond of her. He helped her a great deal in her studies. He was also a vicious racist. I'm not drawing a parrallel to BJU here. I'm just pointing out faulty reasoning. People and institutions who are capable of very good things are also capable of very bad things. One does not negate the other. Because that farmer was a delightful person to the researcher did not mean she excused or refused to see his more horrible aspects. And love should speak truth, no? I'm not sure I'd be especially loving to those close to me if I let them hurt others without at least pointing out to them the harm they do. Edited July 15, 2011 by WishboneDawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Um. Bill might be offended that you didn't use his exact term. :D And I totally forget what piece of brilliance that was. I couldn't remember what it was either. So I just left it at "Bill". :D a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Um. Bill might be offended that you didn't use his exact term. :D And I totally forget what piece of brilliance that was. I'm just happy to have my own separate category :tongue_smilie: Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I couldn't remember what it was either. So I just left it at "Bill". :D a No worries, I couldn't remember it either :lol: Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Bachmann was a longtime member of the Salem Evangelical Lutheran Church in Stillwater, Minn., which belongs to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS), a council of churches founded in 1850 that today comprises about 400,000 people. WELS is the most conservative of the major Lutheran church organizations, known for its strict adherence to the writings of Martin Luther, the German theologian who broke with the Catholic Church and launched the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. This includes endorsing Luther's statements about the papacy. From the WELS "Doctrinal Statement on the Antichrist": Here Someone better go tell all these Lutherans they're not Protestants. E-mail the author of this article, perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollyandab Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) I apologize for what I said...it was wrong of me... Edited July 15, 2011 by hollyandab I apologized...I was wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) nm Edited July 15, 2011 by WishboneDawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Let me say this; BJU is NOT racist. When I was there (20 years ago), one of my friends was an African-American, and everyone there LOVED him. But if you loved him enough to date him or marry him you would have been expelled. That is about a racist as it gets as school policies go, other than excluding blacks entirely, which BJU also did until 1971. That stupid dating rule needed taken out, but you would have to spend a year and a half learning about why they used to take that stand. It had to do with the end times and the anti-Christ and not wanting to be part of the anti-Christ world... Yes, stupid, and they finally admitted it. They are not perfect--none of us is, and none of us should claim to be. [/QUOTe] I'm not sure how equating so-called "race-mixing" with a scheme of the Anti-Christ helps BJUs case any. Bad enough to be racists without inventing extra-biblical baloney to support their hate. Next, yes, they disagree with Catholics on doctrine. But they do NOT hate Catholics. They love them! But they do disagree with their doctrinal position and that, according to how they believe, is something to divide over. When BJU leaders call the Pope an agent of the Anti-Christ it is a lot more than disagreement over doctrine. That is hate. No way around it. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) Glad to see you took my advice earlier. Edited July 15, 2011 by Scarlett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollyandab Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 This is ridiculous. Clairelise was calm and polite with you and you're accusing her of being a liar. Yup, you're right. I did the very thing I did not want to do. I reacted emotionally. It was the second time she replied to me, what I felt was in a condescending way, after 2 posts that I was trying to be nice about, and I did react emotionally. I think I realized that many here truly believed these things about people who want to be a bit more isolated from the world and other denominations. People who have differing views. I disagree that it is hate, but until you are part of it, you will not see it differently. So I back down. I still mantain that most here do not understand the way they believe, and that "most" fundamentalists are not hateful. I would daresay that there are many in every denomination that are racist and hateful and such; it's impossible that every bigot and religiously intolerant person goes to BJU or a fundamental church. But I am not going to persuade anyone of this, and I was wrong to have reacted that way. So I am sorry, Clairelise, again for an emotional response, and I hope that some day all of you will come to know this group better. I also now see why an emotional person such as myself has no business on this blog. Someone warned me of it, and I didn't listen. Blessings, Holly, still sad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollyandab Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Glad to see you took my advice earlier. Yup, and when I read it, I thought what a wise person you are... Read my latest post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Yup, and when I read it, I thought what a wise person you are... Read my latest post... I did. :) You can edit your post you know. If you do I will edit out my quote of your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Blessings, Holly, still sad This might help. Generally cheers me up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I did. :) You can edit your post you know. If you do I will edit out my quote of your post. Ditto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I also now see why an emotional person such as myself has no business on this blog. Someone warned me of it, and I didn't listen. Blessings, Holly, still sad Holly you can be on this board. Just do more reading and less posting for now. I think that will serve you well. Trust me I know of what I speak. I am a member of one of 'those' religions. I'm sometimes sad when I read such negative things about the most important part of my life, but hey life goes on. Their opinions don't define me. With a few exceptions I honestly can't tell you WHICH posters are anti-Scarlett's religion. I am terrible at remembering who seems to hate me and who tolerates me and who likes me. And sometimes we will disagree violently with a poster about one topic and go on to chit chat and lol with them over other topics. It happened to me just today. When I saw her name I bristled a bit, but her post was so darn funny I had to LOL at her and she did back. Such is life here. It is a cool place to hang out. You just have to learn the 'feel' of the place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimm Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 This cheers me up. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 This might help. Generally cheers me up. Well at least it wasn't men in kilts!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Well at least it wasn't men in kilts!!! You say that as if men in kilts are a bad thing!:crying: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollyandab Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Holly you can be on this board. Just do more reading and less posting for now. I think that will serve you well. Trust me I know of what I speak. I am a member of one of 'those' religions. I'm sometimes sad when I read such negative things about the most important part of my life, but hey life goes on. Their opinions don't define me. With a few exceptions I honestly can't tell you WHICH posters are anti-Scarlett's religion. I am terrible at remembering who seems to hate me and who tolerates me and who likes me. And sometimes we will disagree violently with a poster about one topic and go on to chit chat and lol with them over other topics. It happened to me just today. When I saw her name I bristled a bit, but her post was so darn funny I had to LOL at her and she did back. Such is life here. It is a cool place to hang out. You just have to learn the 'feel' of the place. Thanks for the encouragement. I don't know why I reacted that way. Anyhow, I already erased the post, even before you suggested it. I've had a rough week...we were robbed and for some reason I just decided to hang out here... not wise!! LOL Have a good weekend! Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 You say that as if men in kilts are a bad thing!:crying: LOL....I'm actually growing to appreciate them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollyandab Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 This might help. Generally cheers me up. Cute! We just got a Siberian puppy a few months ago, looks just like the one in the basket! She's a love-bug!! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Thanks for the encouragement. I don't know why I reacted that way. Anyhow, I already erased the post, even before you suggested it. I've had a rough week...we were robbed and for some reason I just decided to hang out here... not wise!! LOL Have a good weekend! Holly You get used to it Holly. I've changed how I view criticism from my experience on message boards. I once spent a couple of years as one of the few Christians on an Atheist board (they had some people on there that were ridiculously knowledgeable about Biblical scholarship and that's what drew me in). It was intense to say the least - lots of debates. But gradually I learned that a lot of the criticisms being tossed my way weren't personal and some were pretty spot on. Others that weren't so accurate I learned to toss aside. Can't say I always manage to exercise the willingness to accept and examine criticism or pass up the insults but it helped me a great deal. Being on this board has helped me learn to respect a lot of women with very different views than mine, conservative fundamentalist women included. And to have the occasional spat with them in one thread but patch it up in the next. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffeefreak Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Holly you can be on this board. Just do more reading and less posting for now. I think that will serve you well. Trust me I know of what I speak. I am a member of one of 'those' religions. I'm sometimes sad when I read such negative things about the most important part of my life, but hey life goes on. Their opinions don't define me. With a few exceptions I honestly can't tell you WHICH posters are anti-Scarlett's religion. I am terrible at remembering who seems to hate me and who tolerates me and who likes me. And sometimes we will disagree violently with a poster about one topic and go on to chit chat and lol with them over other topics. It happened to me just today. When I saw her name I bristled a bit, but her post was so darn funny I had to LOL at her and she did back. Such is life here. It is a cool place to hang out. You just have to learn the 'feel' of the place. :iagree: And you learn that this is a meeting of the minds. It's like a debate where there are no answers and there is no closure. It used to drive me nuts so I very rarely posted on the General Board. Now, I like hearing what others think even if it hurts. It actually has helped me to grow in my faith.:grouphug: Well at least it wasn't men in kilts!!! Scarlett, you've deeply offended me. Everyone knows you can't be a member of this board if you don't sign the SOF promising to post at least one picture of a man in a kilt per thread. Geesh! Where have you been?!;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Scarlett, you've deeply offended me. Everyone knows you can't be a member of this board if you don't sign the SOF promising to post at least one picture of a man in a kilt per thread. Geesh! Where have you been?!;) She is SOOO not one of us. I really don't think she should be allowed to post here anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I disagree that it is hate, but until you are part of it, you will not see it differently. So I back down. I still mantain that most here do not understand the way they believe, and that "most" fundamentalists are not hateful. I would daresay that there are many in every denomination that are racist and hateful and such; it's impossible that every bigot and religiously intolerant person goes to BJU or a fundamental church. There is a disconnect here. BJU's policies were racist. Leaders in certain fundamentalist denominations perpetuate hate. You are wrong when you say I would view it differently if I saw it from the inside. I grew up in a fundamentalist church. As I stated before, I left the Baptist church I had been attending as a teen when I got in a huge debate with my Sunday school teachers after the curriculum preached against interracial dating. Even at that age, I knew wrong when I saw it and could back myself up from a historical and Biblical position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Yup, you're right. I did the very thing I did not want to do. I reacted emotionally. It was the second time she replied to me, what I felt was in a condescending way, after 2 posts that I was trying to be nice about, and I did react emotionally. I think I realized that many here truly believed these things about people who want to be a bit more isolated from the world and other denominations. People who have differing views. I disagree that it is hate, but until you are part of it, you will not see it differently. So I back down. I still mantain that most here do not understand the way they believe, and that "most" fundamentalists are not hateful. I would daresay that there are many in every denomination that are racist and hateful and such; it's impossible that every bigot and religiously intolerant person goes to BJU or a fundamental church. But I am not going to persuade anyone of this, and I was wrong to have reacted that way. So I am sorry, Clairelise, again for an emotional response, and I hope that some day all of you will come to know this group better. I also now see why an emotional person such as myself has no business on this blog. Someone warned me of it, and I didn't listen. Blessings, Holly, still sad http://bju.typepad.com/bjuexposed/2008/03/dr-camille-le-1.html http://www.drslewis.org/camille/tag/camille-lewis/ (look for her Ebenezer series) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIS0320 Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I have managed to read most of this enormous thread and it has been a fascinating discussion. It is eye-opening to me that some Christian groups who are not Catholic or Orthodox (or LDS or JW) are aggravated at being labeled Protestant - who knew?! I grew up Methodist, attended an evangelical Christian high school and participated at a Calvary Chapel for a couple years in my late teens. Each group had doctrinal differences with the other groups but they all considered themselves staunchly Protestant. I sort of look at this like I do being a citizen of the United States. I am a Virginian but I am also an American. People who live in Alaska or Hawaii or even Wyoming probably have slightly different English speaking patterns than me, possibly even speak another language or belong to another religion, and have unique cultural identities and yet... We are all Americans! My state does not set me apart from Canadians or Italians, my nationality does. In the same way I see this being true for all Christians - we are Christians first, just like we are all humans on planet Earth, next we are defined by our nationality which in religious terms would be our overarching beliefs and clearly define a person as Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, LDS and so on. Next comes a more unique definition which would be Greek Orthodox, Methodist, or Amish and so on. Last would be your familial identity which would plant you firmly in place religiously speaking with your own particular brand of whatever denomination you belong to. I really had no idea that others saw this differently and chose to be offended if others didn't take the time to ask their religious "familial" association. WTM is always a place where I learn something new! (And I still think 99.9% of Lutherans would happily label themselves Protestant...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Catholic Lutheran Protestant A Doctrinal Comparison of Three Christian Confessions Author: Gregory Jackson "The purpose of this book has been to provide a way for people to understand, study and discuss three distinctive Christian confessions." The book is divided into three sections: Part One, Areas of Agreement; Part Two, Areas of Partial Agreement; and Part Three, Complete Disagreement. Papercover. 299 pages. Catalog Item Number: OL-154450 Price: $ 22.00 Quantity: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollyandab Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 :iagree:And you learn that this is a meeting of the minds. It's like a debate where there are no answers and there is no closure. It used to drive me nuts so I very rarely posted on the General Board. Now, I like hearing what others think even if it hurts. It actually has helped me to grow in my faith.:grouphug: Yes, I see that! LOL! I can handle being told I'm wrong on doctrine; it totally doesn't bother me. I get extremely emotional with the racist subject though, as I am an EXTREME advocate of equality of races. I have wanted to adopt from either Guatemala or Haiti for years...I mean YEARS! (I'm a big baby about flying very far, thus the closer locations!!) We have fertility issues, and while God allowed us to have twins through in-vitro (we decided on in-vitro mostly because 12 yrs ago I didn't realize that it wasn't always a 20 yr wait to adopt! Obviously I'm tickled pink that it worked--or should I say blue!--they're boys), but anyhow, off track again, even though we have biological children, I have a heart to adopt. Guatemala closed down, and the price of international adoption is sooo high, so we are now praying about adopting through the foster system, most likely either bi-racial or African American. I baby-sat a bi-racial baby years ago and I loved that child like my own!! I think his mama was beginning to worry that I might run off with him!! heehee! I love all children, no matter what their color, and I mean it is something so deep within me to love and nurture these children, so many that are so unwanted and without anyone to love them. I just want to reach out and take them all!! And there are so many wonderful bi-racial couples and families in our church, and so many "white folks" that have adopted from every country possible, it seams! So I guess I really got angry very quickly about something so close to my heart. I promise I will try my very best to not tie my emotions to my responses. Maybe this forum will help me to be slow to speak, as I have always had a problem with this very thing!! Thanks for the love, guys! Holly, feeling better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I have managed to read most of this enormous thread and it has been a fascinating discussion. It is eye-opening to me that some Christian groups who are not Catholic or Orthodox (or LDS or JW) are aggravated at being labeled Protestant - who knew?! I grew up Methodist, attended an evangelical Christian high school and participated at a Calvary Chapel for a couple years in my late teens. Each group had doctrinal differences with the other groups but they all considered themselves staunchly Protestant. I sort of look at this like I do being a citizen of the United States. I am a Virginian but I am also an American. People who live in Alaska or Hawaii or even Wyoming probably have slightly different English speaking patterns than me, possibly even speak another language or belong to another religion, and have unique cultural identities and yet... We are all Americans! My state does not set me apart from Canadians or Italians, my nationality does. In the same way I see this being true for all Christians - we are Christians first, just like we are all humans on planet Earth, next we are defined by our nationality which in religious terms would be our overarching beliefs and clearly define a person as Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, LDS and so on. Next comes a more unique definition which would be Greek Orthodox, Methodist, or Amish and so on. Last would be your familial identity which would plant you firmly in place religiously speaking with your own particular brand of whatever denomination you belong to. I really had no idea that others saw this differently and chose to be offended if others didn't take the time to ask their religious "familial" association. WTM is always a place where I learn something new! (And I still think 99.9% of Lutherans would happily label themselves Protestant...) You've missed the point. It's how the term is used & often on this forum with many negative connotations. I'd bet 99.9% of Lutherans have no idea that's it is used that way. It was outlined pretty well by Carol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Yes, I see that! LOL! I can handle being told I'm wrong on doctrine; it totally doesn't bother me. I get extremely emotional with the racist subject though, as I am an EXTREME advocate of equality of races. This is where you've got to draw the line between the general and personal. No one is accusing you of racism if we're discussing BJU. We're just discussing BJU. The only time to get emotional is around the issue of kilts.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 The only time to get emotional is around the issue of kilts.;) Yes! Dagnabit, I'm emotional about kilts! And everyone MUST be equally emotional about kilts, and prefer the Roman ones (no annoying distracting plaid). It's a requirement. SOF level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 We are all Americans! My state does not set me apart from Canadians or Italians, my nationality does. In the same way I see this being true for all Christians - we are Christians first, just like we are all humans on planet Earth, next we are defined by our nationality which in religious terms would be our overarching beliefs and clearly define a person as Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, LDS and so on. Next comes a more unique definition which would be Greek Orthodox, Methodist, or Amish and so on. Last would be your familial identity which would plant you firmly in place religiously speaking with your own particular brand of whatever denomination you belong to. Not really on the Orthodox. Greek, Russian, Serbian, American...it's all the same and part of the same. The only difference would be the Oriental and Coptics. Even then, they are close enough that the difference is only necessary when specifically discussing those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeganW Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 As an Anglican I wouldn't sign it on principle. At my church all baptized Christians are welcome to take communion and all, baptized or not, are welcome to worship with us. Such an exclusive SOF would run counter to that spirit. I thought the same thing! Seriously??? I cannot believe that they are SOOO specific! Our groups have SOFs, but they are really general "we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" type things. Pretty much every Christian would be fine with them. And non-Christians are welcome to join, but are not to be leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollyandab Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 This is where you've got to draw the line between the general and personal. No one is accusing you of racism if we're discussing BJU. We're just discussing BJU. Yes, I see that now. I guess I lumped myself in with BJU and took it personally. They really aren't racist though. I know most of you think that. But I never heard anyone ever talk that way; it was never mentioned anywhere--not the classroom, in private, from the pulpit...never did I ever hear anything racist. The rule was never mentioned. Stupid, stupid, horrible rule. It just makes me sick that they had it because it is so not what they are about. It put such a horrible light on them. Oh well...hashed and re-hashed... However, I do have a problem with their crazy dress code!! Ack! I hate hose! :tongue_smilie: Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 However, I do have a problem with their crazy dress code!! Ack! I hate hose! :tongue_smilie: Holly See? We're right! How can you honestly defend an institution that makes you wear hose???:tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I think that there are several reasonable choices. One is to use the term Protestant but stop identifying it with characteristics that don't apply to all in that umbrella, like age of reason baptism, lack of the Real Presence, etc. Another is to use people's specific denominations in discussions--on the premise that if we can do that for Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox we can do it for Confessional Lutherans, too. Does this mean we have to learn all 33,000 names of all the denominations that sprang from the Reformation? Is that even realistic? No worries, I couldn't remember it either :lol: Bill Ortholicipalicanian. Don't ask. I've been gone for almost a week and that nonsense word has stuck in my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesmere Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Yup, you're right. I did the very thing I did not want to do. I reacted emotionally. It was the second time she replied to me, what I felt was in a condescending way, after 2 posts that I was trying to be nice about, and I did react emotionally. You've referred to my posts in a very unflattering way several times and admitted that you implied some not-so-nice things, such as calling posts "mean-spirited". I told you plainly that my tone should be taken as a gentle one. You created an argument where there did not need to be one. I think I realized that many here truly believed these things about people who want to be a bit more isolated from the world and other denominations. People who have differing views. I disagree that it is hate, but until you are part of it, you will not see it differently. Holly, I was in a fundamentalist church. I've said that several times. I understand my friends are not monsters. I know that BJU itself is not the same thing as its policy. You don't need to keep saying this or acting defeated about it. I already said -- I can separate the soul from their currently held view. I'm aware and also saddened with you by those who do not (some of those people were genuinely hurt, and that does not justify their response, I know) by the way, but again, that has not been the spirit of this discussion. So I back down. I still mantain that most here do not understand the way they believe, and that "most" fundamentalists are not hateful. Once again, no one is in disagreement about this. Why do you keep maintaining something as if it was ever up for debate? I would daresay that there are many in every denomination that are racist and hateful and such; it's impossible that every bigot and religiously intolerant person goes to BJU or a fundamental church. But I am not going to persuade anyone of this, and I was wrong to have reacted that way. So I am sorry, Clairelise, again for an emotional response, and I hope that some day all of you will come to know this group better. Blessings, Holly, still sad Holly, (and I'm saying this in the same polite tone, so you don't feel the need to lash out at me again) There is no need to be sad about what you keep lamenting over. I haven't seen a good reason for why it is "mean-spirited", "whiny", or "bitter" to say that racists are promoting hatred. You admit to emotionally responding to calm, polite, rational answers to your objections. And I admit I still cannot figure out why someone would be offended that we rightly point out divisive and hateful policies. It seems like you bring up points on which there is no disagreement. No one said that most fundamentalists are not friendly people. No one said bigotry is exclusive to fundamentalists. That would be a ridiculous assertion. Most of my racist family is not religious, by the way. If no offense is meant, please do not take offense. It is not a matter of trying to persuade people of the things you are saying -- they weren't in question. I've been trying to tell you very gently and made a point to let you know that I was speaking in a friendly tone. All questions that I ask are genuine, not sarcastic. I've had to make apologies on this forum, but no, I'm not apologizing for rationally calling a racist or religiously discriminatory view wrong or unjust. At the same time, I'm not standing over here saying everything that I posted has been said as well as it could have been, either. I'm going to partially quote Mrs. Mungo and add my two cents ... not in any way saying she shares my opinion or stance. But she makes a very important point. There is a disconnect here. BJU's policies were racist. Leaders in certain fundamentalist denominations perpetuate hate. ... Even at that age, I knew wrong when I saw it and could back myself up from a historical and Biblical position. Holly, Sadly, a lot of young people sense the wrong but don't have a way out or they aren't educated with any historical/Biblical argument. Or if they give one, it is brushed off as false teaching. So if I call BJU's former policies racist, I'm not making a personal attack or causing division. But if someone asks, yes, I'm going to calmly and rationally point out the injustice that lives on and help someone find a way out if they are looking. But most of them aren't looking so I don't go there. And if you think that is divisive, then I am at a loss just as much as I'm at a loss as to why you would argue so much with someone who advocates social justice or why you are arguing where no argument need exist. Now going back to the OP's statement of faith that came from a Baptist group: it is similar to one in our area. I'm not saying that these two groups operate the same way. But for the one in our area, I just quietly stay away and fend off invitations. You won't find me protesting their statement, trying to be divisive, or trying to get them to become inclusive. I know why they are operating that way and I realize most of them don't understand the implications of their SOF. Do take this to heart -- no one would be responding to you in this manner if they were not trying to help you understand and be a part of this discussion. I'd rather be off doing other things but I do value clarity and reason (not saying I have mastered that, either), so here I am again. Saying that I'm trying to help in no way means that I feel the need to be condescending. You are an adult and I've striven to respect that. Does that help? Please do take it in the spirit it is given. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 This cheers me up. ;) Oh that IS contagious...giggle... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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