s/o catholic/protestant thing - SOF issue

[momofkhm]

I go to a co-op at a local baptist church. I am not go to this church, am not baptist but I have no problem signing the statement of faith. I have a friend who is catholic and does. Could the Catholics here help me to know what in the SOF conflicts with catholic beliefs? FWIW, she wasn't raised catholic but like "Jennifer" from other thread was confirmed as an adult to join her dh's church.

 

I'm really just wondering! I don't know much about the catholic church except that non-catholic people tell me they believe this and then Catholics tell me that others don't know.

 

Anyway, here's the SOF for the co-op:

 

The following are areas upon which all SEEK members agree:

 

The Scriptures

 

• I believe that the Bible (the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments) as originally written is the only Word of God, and is truth without any mixture of error.

 

• I believe there is no other sacred scripture beyond the 66 books of the Bible.

 

• I believe that the Bible is the center of true Christian unity and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds and opinions shall be tried.

 

 

The Triune God

 

• I believe there is one and only one living and true God, the Maker and Supreme Ruler of heaven and earth.

 

• I believe God is holy and worthy of all possible honor, confidence and love.

 

• I believe that in the unity of the Godhead there are three persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, equal in every divine perfection and executing distinct but harmonious offices in the great work of redemption.

 

• I believe Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, having not been created, but being the Second Person of the Trinity, came into this world as foretold in the Scriptures to manifest God to mankind and to be the Redeemer of the sinful world.

 

 

The Fall of Man

 

• I believe that man was created in innocence under the laws of his Maker.

 

• I believe that in a voluntary act of rebellion, Adam sinned and thus ushered sin into the world.

 

• I believe that because of Adam's sin, all people are born as sinners by nature, and that all people demonstrate that sin nature through their conduct and are therefore under just condemnation by God without defense or excuse.

 

 

Grace and the New Creation

 

• I believe that in order to be saved, sinners must be granted new life in Jesus Christ.

 

• I believe that the new birth Jesus provides is instantaneous and not a process.

 

• I believe that in the new birth, the person who was once dead in trespasses and in sin is made a partaker of the divine nature and receives eternal life, the free gift of God.

 

• I believe that this new birth is brought about by our sovereign God, solely by the power of the Holy Spirit and not by works of righteousness that I perform.

 

• I believe that faith alone in Jesus Christ is the only condition for salvation.

 

Thanks!

[cathmom]

Right from the first line there's a problem: the Catholic Bible contains books that the Protestant Bible does not. I actually didn't read any further yet LOL.

[cathmom]

OK, and the second CLEARLY excludes Catholics!

[cathmom]

And the third point denies what Catholic believe about the magisterium and the authority of the Church. Honestly, this is the worst anti-Catholic SOF I've ever read. It might as well say, "Catholics not welcome!"

[Mrs Mungo]

Statements of Faith are *intended* to exclude. That is the whole point of them. This one is obviously designed to make sure it excludes Catholics.

[SailorMom]

In addition to the extra books, Catholics do not believe in salvation by faith alone, as the last one states....

[WishboneDawn]

And the third point denies what Catholic believe about the magisterium and the authority of the Church. Honestly, this is the worst anti-Catholic SOF I've ever read. It might as well say, "Catholics not welcome!"

 

Keep in mind this is a Baptist church SOF. It's not meant to exclude Catholics but to outline the beliefs of that community.

 

Still, if I were Catholic, and even as an Anglican, I couldn't sign that SOF.

[cathmom]

Keep in mind this is a Baptist church SOF. It's not meant to exclude Catholics but to outline the beliefs of that community.

 

Still, if I were Catholic, and even as an Anglican, I couldn't sign that SOF.

 

But it's not for the church, it's for a homeschool coop, right? Or did I misread? If you're going to get that specific, then just limit the coop to members of the church.

[cathmom]

Statements of Faith are *intended* to exclude. That is the whole point of them.

 

Good point!

[happygrrl]

Statements of Faith are *intended* to exclude. That is the whole point of them. This one is obviously designed to make sure it excludes Catholics.

 

... and Eastern Orthodox.

 

In addition to what the other posters mentioned we believe Salvation is instantaneous AND a process. (God does not have to fit Himself into our time limitations.) Honestly, what we mean by the word 'Salvation' is more complex than the average Protestant SOF would include... I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved. Protestants divide this process up into Salvation, Sanctification, etc.

 

That was the short answer, I know it was more shallow than the topic deserves!

[Mrs Mungo]

... and Eastern Orthodox.

 

If Catholics are excluded, you guys are *definitely* excluded. That goes double for JW and LDS types. ;)

[Avila]

Well, this is about as explicit a statement to exclude Catholics as I have ever seen, unless you count the one I saw that mentioned Catholics by name. SOFs usually have a line in them for sola scriptura, sola fide or both. The reference to the number of books in the Bible is clearly set up to exclude Catholics here, as is the faith alone statement.

[Ellesmere]

.

Edited April 20, 2014 by CaladwenEleniel

[twoforjoy]

I'd say the entire SOF seems designed to exclude Catholics, and would also exclude Orthodox Christians, Anglicans, and many mainline Protestants.

 

If a co-op is looking for an inclusive statement of faith, why not use one of the historic creeds? But, in this case, it doesn't seem like they are looking for something inclusive. I don't know why you'd mention the "66 books" of the Bible unless you were specifically setting out to exclude non-Protestants.

[Spy Car]

Statements of Faith are *intended* to exclude. That is the whole point of them. This one is obviously designed to make sure it excludes Catholics.

 

:iagree:

 

It would be difficult to imagine a statement of faith that was more purpose-built to exclude Roman Catholics without making such an exclusion explicit.

 

This is clearly designed to exclude Catholics (and the LDS). Not at all subtle.

 

Bill

[happygrrl]

:iagree:

 

It would be difficult to imagine a statement of faith that was more purpose-built to exclude Roman Catholics without making such an exclusion explicit.

 

This is clearly designed to exclude Catholics (and the LDS). Not at all subtle.

 

Bill

 

As a side note: I have determined that you must be an Ortholicipalicanian. West Coast synod.

[MusicMama]

I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.

 

I didn't think that was a shallow response at all! I love that description of salvation. I'm LDS and feel the OP discomfort and confusion over SOF. Some tend to feel very aggressive, others genuinely want to outline the groups beliefs. You can tell a lot about the group from their SOF.

[Spy Car]

As a side note: I have determined that you must be an Ortholicipalicanian. West Coast synod.

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Bill

[momofkhm]

But it's not for the church, it's for a homeschool coop, right? Or did I misread? If you're going to get that specific, then just limit the coop to members of the church.

 

This is watered down from the church SOF for the co-op.

 

And actually yes, this particular pastor does hold to Catholics won't be in heaven. When oldest dd wanted to take a worldview class taught by a children's pastor, I told her to expect to be told that Catholics weren't saved. (My IL are Catholic and saved.) I told dd to figure out now whether she wanted to keep quiet or argue with the pastor. She didn't get into the class so it wasn't an issue.

 

I never thought about those things being anti-catholic!

 

Thanks!

[Zuzu822]

I'd say the entire SOF seems designed to exclude Catholics, and would also exclude Orthodox Christians, Anglicans, and many mainline Protestants.

 

If a co-op is looking for an inclusive statement of faith, why not use one of the historic creeds? But, in this case, it doesn't seem like they are looking for something inclusive. I don't know why you'd mention the "66 books" of the Bible unless you were specifically setting out to exclude non-Protestants.

 

This will only work if the Protestant in question understands that the creeds aren't "Catholic" but Christian.

 

I just ran into to this issue on a blog team. The editor decided she wanted to add a SOF representative of her Bible-believing faith. Since there was another Catholic in the group too (though admittedly she doesn't practice), I suggested the Apostle or Nicene Creeds since they are inclusive of all Christians. She said she wasn't going to print something just to suit my beliefs.

 

:confused:

 

The SOF she was using as a basis was this one, and despite my explanations and ideas to adjust it to NOT exclude the majority of Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, mainline Protestants), she couldn't or wouldn't understand what I was suggesting. Needless to say, I left the blog and our friendship essentially ended. :(

 

Anyway, carry on! This is still obviously a very sore spot for me!

[WishboneDawn]

But it's not for the church, it's for a homeschool coop, right? Or did I misread? If you're going to get that specific, then just limit the coop to members of the church.

 

Nope. I misread it. That sort of changes my view. They have the right to exclude I guess but there's no way I'd condone it or sign the SOF just to go to the coop.

[milovany]

 

The SOF she was using as a basis was this one...

 

Eek! I've become sensitive to SOFs that put the Bible about the Trinity. :001_huh:

[kimnc]

@ Cheryl- both SEEK and Dayspring have a Sola Scriptura statement to join.

 

The church that co-op is held at does have a fairly anti-Catholic teaching. To me this is sad, because I think if they could get past that sentiment they would discover they have more in common with Catholics than they think.

[i.love.lucy]

Eek! I've become sensitive to SOFs that put the Bible about the Trinity. :001_huh:

Could you explain what you mean in this statement?

[oraetstudia]

Heck, that SOF would have excluded me when I was a member of the Church of Christ, let alone now that I'm Catholic. But then Baptists and CoC have a some very specific differences, since CoC are not Calvinist.

[twoforjoy]

Could you explain what you mean in this statement?

 

I think she meant "Bible above the Trinity."

[momofkhm]

@ Cheryl- both SEEK and Dayspring have a Sola Scriptura statement to join.

 

The church that co-op is held at does have a fairly anti-Catholic teaching. To me this is sad, because I think if they could get past that sentiment they would discover they have more in common with Catholics than they think.

 

I know. I just keep quiet when my friends there bring it up in conversation. Kind of like passing the bean dip I guess. I didn't know about Dayspring though. I've never thought about joining them.

[dangermom]

If Catholics are excluded, you guys are *definitely* excluded. That goes double for JW and LDS types. ;)

 

Yep, that's written on purpose to block LDS folks out too.

[HSMWB]

hmmm - I am a pretty main line Lutheran, and there is no way I would be comfortable signing that statement of faith, at all.

[milovany]

I think she meant "Bible above the Trinity."

 

You're right <blush>. I have a software program with which I can abbreviate words and they come out as the whole word -- and I must not have typed the v after "ab" because ab is "about" where abv is above. Oops!

[i.love.lucy]

You're right <blush>. I have a software program with which I can abbreviate words and they come out as the whole word -- and I must not have typed the v after "ab" because ab is "about" where abv is above. Oops!

Gotcha!

 

It makes sense in a way though, if your faith is solely based on what scripture says (meaning all your understanding comes from scripture and no tradition or other teachings outside scripture or added to it) that the very first thing you would have in your SOF is going to be about the Bible.

 

I'm still not sure I understand why people get bent out of shape about SOFs. This seems to have been hashed and rehashed so many times. If there was a Catholic or LDS or Pagan (for example) homeschool group or co-op, I feel very certain I would not agree to those SOFs at all. And I would certainly want to know going in what their beliefs and teachings are.

 

And this one is for a church. I don't get what's upsetting? Don't all churches make professions of their faith so people know what they are getting?:confused:

[In The Great White North]

And this one is for a church.

 

I thought the OP said it was for the coop?

[WishboneDawn]

Gotcha!

 

It makes sense in a way though, if your faith is solely based on what scripture says (meaning all your understanding comes from scripture and no tradition or other teachings outside scripture or added to it) that the very first thing you would have in your SOF is going to be about the Bible.

 

I'm still not sure I understand why people get bent out of shape about SOFs. This seems to have been hashed and rehashed so many times. If there was a Catholic or LDS or Pagan (for example) homeschool group or co-op, I feel very certain I would not agree to those SOFs at all. And I would certainly want to know going in what their beliefs and teachings are.

 

And this one is for a church. I don't get what's upsetting? Don't all churches make professions of their faith so people know what they are getting?:confused:

 

I've never heard of SOFs outside some protestant denominations. Certainly there are certain doctrines people subscribe too when they join a particular church but the idea of SOFs attached to extra-church activities around here (youth groups, day camps, coops) would be strange. Generally those activities are meant partly to reach out to the wider community.

 

It seem a strangely insular idea to me. One more concerned with protecting members from the outside world then reaching out to the wider community.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Gotcha!

 

I'm still not sure I understand why people get bent out of shape about SOFs. This seems to have been hashed and rehashed so many times. If there was a Catholic or LDS or Pagan (for example) homeschool group or co-op, I feel very certain I would not agree to those SOFs at all. And I would certainly want to know going in what their beliefs and teachings are.

 

I'm with you on this one. I think it is really stating the obvious, but then again I wouldn't ever send my children to a non-catholic co-op, preschool, parochial school, or church function. I think the point of the thread though was to answer why Catholics wouldn't sign the SOF for the co-op.

[In The Great White North]

If there was a Catholic or LDS or Pagan (for example) homeschool group or co-op, I feel very certain I would not agree to those SOFs at all

 

I've never seen a Catholic group/camp/activity have a SOF requirement either.

[Parrothead]

 

I'm still not sure I understand why people get bent out of shape about SOFs. This seems to have been hashed and rehashed so many times. If there was a Catholic or LDS or Pagan (for example) homeschool group or co-op, I feel very certain I would not agree to those SOFs at all. And I would certainly want to know going in what their beliefs and teachings are.

 

 

The thread is about why a particular SOF would be unacceptable to Catholics in particular and Orthodox, LDS, some mainline Protestants, JW and the newest Christian denomination: the Ortholicipalicanian. West Coast synod.

 

If there were a Catholic, LDS or Pagan homeschool co-op i the area, one would probably not have to sign a statement of faith to join.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

I've never seen a Catholic group/camp/activity have a SOF requirement either.

deleted because of incorrect info

Edited July 9, 2011 by happyhappyjoyjoy

[Spy Car]

I'm still not sure I understand why people get bent out of shape about SOFs. This seems to have been hashed and rehashed so many times.

 

People get bent out of shape because statements of faith are obnoxious.

 

The implicit assumption is someone who doesn't believe the same way as others (sometimes down to very fine point particulars) is going to pollute the group and therefore needs to be excluded. And (usually) that is bound up with an implication that these excluded ones are not "true Christians" which may (or may not) cause grave offense.

 

I'm surprised how you (or anyone else) would have a hard time comprehending this.

 

Bill

[milovany]

I've never seen a Catholic group/camp/activity have a SOF requirement either.

 

That's because they all have the same faith, so there's no question what a group believes about this or that. Same with Eastern Orthodox. What we believe is the same around the world. I wouldn't need to see an SOF to send my child to summer camp in St. Petersburg, Athens or Paris. If it's an EO summer camp, I know what they believe.

[Parrothead]

People get bent out of shape because statements of faith are obnoxious.

 

The implicit assumption is someone who doesn't believe the same way as others (sometimes down to very fine point particulars) is going to pollute the group and therefore needs to be excluded. And (usually) that is bound up with an implication that these excluded ones are not "true Christians" which may (or may not) cause grave offense.

 

I'm surprised how you (or anyone else) would have a hard time comprehending this.

 

Bill

Amem, brother!

[kimnc]

Aquinas Learning uses the Apostle's Creed

 

Wow, looks like a great group! :001_smile:

[amey311]

FWIW, I learned the Apostles' Creed in a Methodist Church. I'm pretty sure I can still recite it from memory and we did use the "version" that included the phrase "I believe in the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles%27_Creed - many variations are explained here. I grew up with the UM one. Our hymnals had "catholic" with the lower case C. I think the UM one varies from the others because it doesn't include the phrase "descended into hell" or descended to the dead" after the bit about Jesus being crucified, died and was buried.

 

Are there protestants who don't feel comfortable reciting the Apostles' Creed? I've recited the Nicene Creed, too, but that wasn't used as much as the Apostles'.

 

I know that some churches tweek the Lord's Prayer, too, but I wouldn't think that would make it completely unacceptable to other groups. For example, I learned "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" but I know others use debts in place of trespasses. Some also end after "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" while I learned to continue with "for thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever" and then Amen (with some in the congregation adding "and ever" after the forever).

 

To me, these are nuanced differences rather than the things stated in the SOF (which wouldn't be accepted to all Christians). KWIM?

[smillard00]

And this is exactly why we've never been able to join a homeschool group or participate in a co-op and we don't have any other homeschool friends. We're Christians! We're "saved!" We're baptized! But we can't join someone for a simple science or math lesson because we can't sign a SOF like the one above and we aren't Roman Catholic. (We could sign the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed, if that helps.)

 

So we're stuck. Absolutely stuck. My kids need extra curricular activities and they need friends who are homeschooling too. I need the support of friendships with other homeschooling moms. We would love to go on field trips. But we're Anglican, so we're stuck. We get plenty of Christian formation at Sunday School and VBS and Wednesday Bible Study and at daily at home. Can't we just have a simple homeschool group without having to make everyone jump through hoops and sign statements? Can you tell I'm sick of being excluded? :tongue_smilie:

 

Sorry about the little rant. I'm sad for my kids and it just gets old.

[In The Great White North]

Aquinas Learning uses the Apostle's Creed

 

They have a Statement of Faith. None of their application forms require one to sign it. Their student registration form says:

 

3. Aquinas Learning admits students of any race, religion, creed, color, national & ethnic origin.

 

That is not the same at all, as requiring it for participation.

[SonshineLearner]

I believe that the Bible (the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments) as originally written is the only Word of God, and is truth without any mixture of error.

 

I as a non-Catholic see it straight away, and though I agree with this, I chose to include other signs of Christian faith, rather than this... when I wrote our SOF. Depends on what you're trying to do, when you write a SOF. I did write that we would be discussing this from a certain point, at co-op, but didn't exclude Catholics from the group. (Who wants to sign this, if they don't believe it?) And, since I believe Catholics can be Christians like others... then I didn't want to exclude them. I actually have it so that anyone can join us, but only those who can agree with the SOF... and those who want to sign it... are leaders.

[WishboneDawn]

And this is exactly why we've never been able to join a homeschool group or participate in a co-op and we don't have any other homeschool friends. We're Christians! We're "saved!" We're baptized! But we can't join someone for a simple science or math lesson because we can't sign a SOF like the one above and we aren't Roman Catholic. (We could sign the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed, if that helps.)

 

So we're stuck. Absolutely stuck. My kids need extra curricular activities and they need friends who are homeschooling too. I need the support of friendships with other homeschooling moms. We would love to go on field trips. But we're Anglican, so we're stuck. We get plenty of Christian formation at Sunday School and VBS and Wednesday Bible Study and at daily at home. Can't we just have a simple homeschool group without having to make everyone jump through hoops and sign statements? Can you tell I'm sick of being excluded? :tongue_smilie:

 

Sorry about the little rant. I'm sad for my kids and it just gets old.

 

Is the RC group exclusive? I'd be surprised if they were.

[Spy Car]

The thread is about why a particular SOF would be unacceptable to Catholics in particular and Orthodox, LDS, some mainline Protestants, JW and the newest Christian denomination: the Ortholicipalicanian. West Coast synod.

 

 

Actually, the West Coast Synod is kind of agnostic about the existence of (and faith in) supernatural beings. But we do enjoy the parade :D

 

Bill (who could sign a statement of non-faith :tongue_smilie:)

[SailorMom]

FWIW, I learned the Apostles' Creed in a Methodist Church. I'm pretty sure I can still recite it from memory and we did use the "version" that included the phrase "I believe in the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles%27_Creed - many variations are explained here. I grew up with the UM one. Our hymnals had "catholic" with the lower case C. I think the UM one varies from the others because it doesn't include the phrase "descended into hell" or descended to the dead" after the bit about Jesus being crucified, died and was buried.

 

Are there protestants who don't feel comfortable reciting the Apostles' Creed? I've recited the Nicene Creed, too, but that wasn't used as much as the Apostles'.

 

I know that some churches tweek the Lord's Prayer, too, but I wouldn't think that would make it completely unacceptable to other groups. For example, I learned "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" but I know others use debts in place of trespasses. Some also end after "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" while I learned to continue with "for thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever" and then Amen (with some in the congregation adding "and ever" after the forever).

 

To me, these are nuanced differences rather than the things stated in the SOF (which wouldn't be accepted to all Christians). KWIM?

 

That usage of the word "catholic" has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church.

It is used in the original usage of the word, meaning - all encompassing, universal

When I was Christian, and went to a Methodist church, I was a bit taken aback at the apostles creed for that reason- so I asked the pastor (who happens to be my MiL :) )

[Pixie]

And this is exactly why we've never been able to join a homeschool group or participate in a co-op and we don't have any other homeschool friends. We're Christians! We're "saved!" We're baptized! But we can't join someone for a simple science or math lesson because we can't sign a SOF like the one above and we aren't Roman Catholic. (We could sign the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed, if that helps.)

 

So we're stuck. Absolutely stuck. My kids need extra curricular activities and they need friends who are homeschooling too. I need the support of friendships with other homeschooling moms. We would love to go on field trips. But we're Anglican, so we're stuck. We get plenty of Christian formation at Sunday School and VBS and Wednesday Bible Study and at daily at home. Can't we just have a simple homeschool group without having to make everyone jump through hoops and sign statements? Can you tell I'm sick of being excluded? :tongue_smilie:

 

Sorry about the little rant. I'm sad for my kids and it just gets old.

 

I see you are in Louisiana. Any chance you'd be in driving distance from Alexandria (well Pineville)? The first class co-op there does not require members to sign the SOF (we participated for a year before moving out of state and I am atheist).

[SonshineLearner]

 

So we're stuck. Absolutely stuck.

Sorry about the little rant. I'm sad for my kids and it just gets old.

 

What... besides the books of the Bible part can't you sign? Just curious. Not totally familiar with Anglicans, but have studied a bit..:bigear: