Discipline questions...please advise me!!!!

[ProudGrandma]

I have a couple questions: when is a child too old for a time out? Or standing in the corner (which is what we do)? And, when a child outgrows a time out....what is the next age appropriate discipline?

 

Another question...sort of realated, but not really. We have an 11 year old daughter who has really become VERY argumentive and sassy in her responses. Tonight we had a big ordeal...we had a family freind over for supper, and right before the children went to bed she recceived a phone call on her cell. Our daughter was wanting to say good night to her and we told her that she could politely go up to our friend, wait to be acknowlegded and give her a quick hug and tell her good night. Our DD kept telling us how rude it would be to do that...and we kept telling her that is ok and that our friend wouldn't mind the interuption. But she kept arguing her point anyway...so finally we told her she lost her chance to say goodbye (our friend lives locally and will be over again many times in the future) and she got all angry and kept arguing. (this type of situation happens often with her). We have finally had it with the behavior and we told her tomorrow she will be doing extra chores. Our DD will argue to get out of a situation, she will argue if she sees we are taking her brother's side over hers', she will argue when it is clear that she is wronga bout something...it is a constant problem. Do you think the punishment is ok? How long or hanw many chores should I make her do tomorrow? And what else can I do to help in this sitiuation? Thanks for any and all help!!!

[LauraGB]

Tonight we had a big ordeal...we had a family freind over for supper, and right before the children went to bed she recceived a phone call on her cell. Our daughter was wanting to say good night to her and we told her that she could politely go up to our friend, wait to be acknowlegded and give her a quick hug and tell her good night. Our DD kept telling us how rude it would be to do that...and we kept telling her that is ok and that our friend wouldn't mind the interuption.

 

I'm going to guess I don't have all of the information. Sounds like the visitor was in in the wrong for taking a phone call during her exit and not saying proper good-byes. In this particular case, I wouldn't have waited to be acknowledged by the guest, either; it's rather insulting. Without knowing all of the history or family dynamic, I can also say than in our family, I would not have made my dd wait to be acknowledged in this situation, and I wouldn't punish her for recognizing poor manners and not understanding how to respond.

[lollie010]

Oh how I wish I had the answers to your questions. I am struggling with similar type behavior with a 7 yo. I honestly do not know what will be effective discipline at his age. I think 11 would be even harder. We try a lot of talking it through. But, that hasn't seemed to get to the bottom of the issues yet.

[Garga]

Hmmm...

 

Guest visits.

It's dd's bedtime.

Guest gets a call. It's a familiar guest, so no one is offended about her taking the call.

DD had wanted to say goodnight, but the call came in.

You told dd to go to Guest and wait for acknowledgement and say good night. Since guest is familiar you knew it wouldn't be a big deal.

DD felt it WOULD be a big deal.

You finally said, "Ok then. Just go to bed. You've lost your chance!"

 

This is a tough one. How did you tell her that she'd lost her chance? Honestly assess: were you annoyed when you said it? Or did you say, "Well dd, if you really feel it would be rude, then you'll have to decide what to do. Either interrupt guest or just go to bed so you're not rude."

 

In other words, did you order her to bed, or let HER decide how to handle this Miss Manners situation? If she felt it would be rude and overstepping Guests boundaries did you honor that, or belittle that? If you belittled her attempt at being polite, then I can see why she got angry.

 

 

Bottom line: is she getting old enough that you need to start loosening your hold on her and letting her make up her own mind on how to handle things, or is she really being a bratty kid? I only ask because I've recently had one of my little sons have a jump in maturity and I've had to let him make some of his own decisions (as long as they're ones that I can live with) and deal with his own consequences, even if they're not decisions I would have made (like saying good night or just going to bed.)

 

 

 

Also, in your above situation, since Guest was being slightly rude to take a call while with someone else (though I can see where if it's a close Guest that it didn't offend anyone AT ALL), I'd have given dd three options:

 

1. Stand around to be acknowledged.

2. Go right to bed.

3. Send her to bed and tell her you'll ask Guest to pop in and say good night when the call is done. (If Guest is close enough to take calls while at your house, she's close enough for it to be important for her to say goodnight to dd, even if dd has to rest in bed until Guest is done.)

[ProudGrandma]

I'm going to guess I don't have all of the information. Sounds like the visitor was in in the wrong for taking a phone call during her exit and not saying proper good-byes. In this particular case, I wouldn't have waited to be acknowledged by the guest, either; it's rather insulting. Without knowing all of the history or family dynamic, I can also say than in our family, I would not have made my dd wait to be acknowledged in this situation, and I wouldn't punish her for recognizing poor manners and not understanding how to respond.

 

This friend is here a lot and she wasn't saying good bye when the phone call came. It was also a long distance call about our friend's sick mom. You have to understand that our DD will take EVERY opportunity to argue with us. And it is THAT behaviour we are trying to curb...but we are wanting to do it appropriately and as effecitiviely as possible. What makes it harder is that I end up arguing right back with her becasue I KNOW she is in the wrong and I want her to just simply stop trying to defend her position. But I know that when I do that, I don't help the situation any, but even with I calmly tell her to knock off the arguing, she continues to the point that I just lose it. And I need to know what to do. PLEASE PLEASE someone tell me!!!!

[kalanamak]

I Our DD will argue to get out of a situation, she will argue if she sees we are taking her brother's side over hers', she will argue when it is clear that she is wronga bout something...it is a constant problem.

 

If I catch my son doing this, I get very serious and say "we are nipping this in the bud". I won't say I'm hostile, but he is dead certain I mean business. Any happy thing he expects down the road (dessert, sleeping in the tent out back instead of his bed, etc) is be gone post-haste if he doesn't stop. This works for us and the "retribution" rarely has to happen. My folks did the same thing.

 

If I finally get fed up with a habit kiddo has gotten into, I will tell him what I expect, and why. My ace in the hole is that he really does want to be a good boy, a well-liked boy, and he, thus far, accepts my rules as part of "learning to grow up and get along so you'll have a happy life".

[ProudGrandma]

Hmmm...

 

Guest visits.

It's dd's bedtime.

Guest gets a call. It's a familiar guest, so no one is offended about her taking the call.

DD had wanted to say goodnight, but the call came in.

You told dd to go to Guest and wait for acknowledgement and say good night. Since guest is familiar you knew it wouldn't be a big deal.

DD felt it WOULD be a big deal.

You finally said, "Ok then. Just go to bed. You've lost your chance!"

 

This is a tough one. How did you tell her that she'd lost her chance? Honestly assess: were you annoyed when you said it? Or did you say, "Well dd, if you really feel it would be rude, then you'll have to decide what to do. Either interrupt guest or just go to bed so you're not rude."

 

at first I was very matter-of-fact...but when she kept on and on, I finally got upset with her.

 

In other words, did you order her to bed, or let HER decide how to handle this Miss Manners situation? If she felt it would be rude and overstepping Guests boundaries did you honor that, or belittle that? If you belittled her attempt at being polite, then I can see why she got angry.

 

I can totally see your point. However, I think I sort of did that..I told her that she could either go and say good night, or go to bed, her choice...but she still argued that it would be rude. I then told her that I would never ask her to do a rudt thing like that...if her dad and I said it was ok....it is ok. But she still argued...and then got mad when I told her to go to bed. But I had to do something...the situatin just kept getting worse...not better.

 

 

Bottom line: is she getting old enough that you need to start loosening your hold on her and letting her make up her own mind on how to handle things, or is she really being a bratty kid? I only ask because I've recently had one of my little sons have a jump in maturity and I've had to let him make some of his own decisions (as long as they're ones that I can live with) and deal with his own consequences, even if they're not decisions I would have made (like saying good night or just going to bed.)

 

yea, I am sure she is getting to be that age and we do need to let her make choices...I will be more aware of this...thanks.

 

 

But now for the punishment...too severe...how many chores...or how long? What can I do to start curbing this behaviour??

 

thanks so much for your response.

[OrganicAnn]

The child that has outgrown time outs, is that child disobeying and that is why you need some response? Often time out involve letting a child cool down from a situation. So if the child isn't upset, but has broken a rule then you need to decide some appropriate consequences for breaking the rules. For older children, you might think about having them write about the situation. Like if they break a siblings toy, they might have to write an apology to the sibling.

 

For the child that continues to argue, you have to stop talking. You have to escort her to her room without talking to her. You can't have a one way argument. But she'll try to continue the argument, and she will if you'll let her by arguing back.

 

I can understand why she thought the situation with the cell phone was awkward. Could you have let her wait until the friend was off the phone? Would that extra few minutes have mattered? Just asking. But I see it was a long distance with sick mom so it could have gone on for a while. Hmmm I'd say a wave goodbye and off to the room.

Edited June 29, 2011 by OrganicAnn

[LaxMom]

I have the same situation with my 10yo. Ours goes something like this: dd asks a question. I answer it. For the next 5 minutes (and sometimes in bits over hours or days, as she keeps returning to it), I am treated to a diatribe about how my answer is completely ridiculous, doesn't make any sense in 10yo logic world, etc.

 

Example: we are in the Walmart buying storage bins. My husband is stuck in the men's room with the boys, so he sends me a word on our ongoing Words with Friends game. I return with "intuit".

 

10yo asks what intuit means. I tell her. 3 aisles later I finally demand that she STOP TALKING because I can't take listening to the monologue about how that doesn't make sense, she knows what intuition is, why can I just use intuition, why would anyone just say intuit and on, and on, and on...

 

And she brought it up again today. :glare: honestly. I do realize they're working out their connect the dots logic but holy cow I'm going to lose my mind.

 

OP I have no ideas for you, but lots of commiseration. We should form a support group.

[Joanne]

I have a couple questions: when is a child too old for a time out? Or standing in the corner (which is what we do)? And, when a child outgrows a time out....what is the next age appropriate discipline?

 

I don't use either of these punishments. I try to find responses that are related, reasonable, and respectful. Standing in a corner doesn't get a room clean, give brother his toy back, or make a child talk respectfully.

 

If you'd like a different *approach*, post about the issues that you are having, and I can offer what I would do or have done.

 

Another question...sort of realated, but not really. We have an 11 year old daughter who has really become VERY argumentive and sassy in her responses. Tonight we had a big ordeal...we had a family freind over for supper, and right before the children went to bed she recceived a phone call on her cell. Our daughter was wanting to say good night to her and we told her that she could politely go up to our friend, wait to be acknowlegded and give her a quick hug and tell her good night. Our DD kept telling us how rude it would be to do that...and we kept telling her that is ok and that our friend wouldn't mind the interuption. But she kept arguing her point anyway...so finally we told her she lost her chance to say goodbye (our friend lives locally and will be over again many times in the future) and she got all angry and kept arguing. (this type of situation happens often with her). We have finally had it with the behavior and we told her tomorrow she will be doing extra chores. Our DD will argue to get out of a situation, she will argue if she sees we are taking her brother's side over hers', she will argue when it is clear that she is wronga bout something...it is a constant problem. Do you think the punishment is ok? How long or hanw many chores should I make her do tomorrow? And what else can I do to help in this sitiuation? Thanks for any and all help!!!

 

Honestly, I agree with your dd. It was not the time to give your guest a good-bye hug.

 

I understand the constant arguing is what you are concerned about (and I would be, too), but in THIS case, I have to agree with dd.

[mom4him]

I have a couple questions: when is a child too old for a time out? Or standing in the corner (which is what we do)? And, when a child outgrows a time out....what is the next age appropriate discipline?

 

Another question...sort of realated, but not really. We have an 11 year old daughter who has really become VERY argumentive and sassy in her responses. Tonight we had a big ordeal...we had a family freind over for supper, and right before the children went to bed she recceived a phone call on her cell. Our daughter was wanting to say good night to her and we told her that she could politely go up to our friend, wait to be acknowlegded and give her a quick hug and tell her good night. Our DD kept telling us how rude it would be to do that...and we kept telling her that is ok and that our friend wouldn't mind the interuption. But she kept arguing her point anyway...so finally we told her she lost her chance to say goodbye (our friend lives locally and will be over again many times in the future) and she got all angry and kept arguing. (this type of situation happens often with her). We have finally had it with the behavior and we told her tomorrow she will be doing extra chores. Our DD will argue to get out of a situation, she will argue if she sees we are taking her brother's side over hers', she will argue when it is clear that she is wronga bout something...it is a constant problem. Do you think the punishment is ok? How long or hanw many chores should I make her do tomorrow? And what else can I do to help in this sitiuation? Thanks for any and all help!!!

It depends on what the child is being disciplined for in our home. Generally the discipline will be one of two things, lost privileges or chores, sometimes both.

 

As far as how many chores to have your dd do extra, this is the first time this is being used, correct? I would make it enough that she gives pause before arguing with you again but not enough to make it excruciating.

[AnitaMcC]

This friend is here a lot and she wasn't saying good bye when the phone call came. It was also a long distance call about our friend's sick mom. You have to understand that our DD will take EVERY opportunity to argue with us. And it is THAT behaviour we are trying to curb...but we are wanting to do it appropriately and as effecitiviely as possible. What makes it harder is that I end up arguing right back with her becasue I KNOW she is in the wrong and I want her to just simply stop trying to defend her position. But I know that when I do that, I don't help the situation any, but even with I calmly tell her to knock off the arguing, she continues to the point that I just lose it. And I need to know what to do. PLEASE PLEASE someone tell me!!!!

 

 

Oh how I relate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have 16 yr old Ds who gets my goat and we get into an arguement cycle. Dh keeps telling to just stop arguing with Ds. Oh, how it is so easy to say but another to do-LOL.

 

As for advice, here is what I try to do... (not that I can actually follow it to the letter myself, but I try). When it is becoming an arguement... I jump off as soon as I realize it. I tell Ds that I will not participate in the arguement. And then I tell him that he has choices. I tell him the choices (one of the choices is "continue to argue")and the consequences that come with the choices. I let him make a choice and he gets the consequence that comes with that choice.

 

If I need to back away and let Dh take over... then I do so. I find that my Ds is not going to argue with Dh as willingly as he does with me.

 

If Ds pushes it and tries to continue the arguement, I tell him that I will not participate in arguing and that he has made his choice and he gets the consequence.

 

Oh, and we still put our teens in time out corner on a rare occassion. It doesn't work to send them to their room as that is what they enjoy -LOL.

 

If I am wanting my kids to do something and they choose not to do it... I will use the corner then after a few minutes in the corner, I tell them they have a choice... stay in the corner or do what is asked of them.

Edited June 29, 2011 by AnitaMcC

[Peela]

It IS annoying when kids argue, but I think it helps to see that they are trying to establish themselves as a separate identity. They no longer want to be told what to do when they really disagree with it. Read up about the logic stage of development- they are using their mind - at least, beginning to- to reason out the world around them and they will no longer just accept your word for anything. If you as an adult appear unreasonable, they will argue. Its a survival mechanism!

 

I think your daughter was not unreasonable in that case and you might be creating a head to head conflict more often than you need to by not also respecting her take on things.

 

I know I am not bringing up kids who would do well in the army. If you want blind obedience, my advice wont help. I want kids who can really think for themselves and will challenge an authority if they find it unreasonable. That includes me. They need to treat me with respect even if they disagree, but they are allowed to disagree and to stand up for what they believe.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I would think it good that she's trying to figure out such things. And how nice she feels comfortable to sound that out with you. At the same time, she has to learn to do so respectfully and I *so* understand that this isn't a one time incident, but an ongoing, annoying issue. To me, it's a balance. What *we* did was to have a cue for "that's enough." At that point, if you pushed the issue, then you could give the cue and she'd have to deal with the choices you gave. If she felt the need, we can revisit the issue at a more appropriate time. In this case, that would be the next morning.

 

Okay, so it's bedtime, she gets ready.

Call comes in.

She's uncomfortable interrupting the call.

At this point, *I* would probably be fine with her waiting until the call ended anyway. If I wasn't, I'd offer her the choice.

She starts arguing.

Immediately, I'd give cue (don't let carrying on go on long).

If she doesn't follow through on a choice, she is choosing to let you make the choice.

 

Of course, she is told all this ahead of time. We also like to do some role playing. And ANY issue can be revisited if done respectfully and at an appropriate time. Again, they are trying to make sense of things so I don't want to squash that. I simply want them to learn the appropriate time, place, and manner in which to broach these topics.

 

ETA: Generally, I think punishments aren't particularly helpful. Not that we don't *ever* use any, we have; but it's not a primary method of discipline. Anyway, I most certainly think an 11yr old is too old for time out. If I were to do extra chores, it'd be more about connecting, something we did together as relationship building, a time to chat a bit, keep lines of communication open, but mostly just to keep knowing her as she's starting to make big changes in who she is. Any other consequence would generally be related. But usually even those can be prevented by disciplining proactively and teaching kiddo to find solutions.

Edited June 29, 2011 by 2J5M9K

[MelanieM]

It sounds like you're experiencing the same problem your daughter has... an inability to drop an argument. What would help you to let go of a useless discussion and walk away? What motivates you to continue? Maybe if you can figure out what is keeping you wrapped up in this cycle, you'll be able to break it and model a better way for her to handle these situations.

 

With my 6 yo, who wants to argue and discuss things to death, I tell him that I'm done discussing it for now and am starting to feel frustrated with the whole conversation, and ask him to leave me alone for a moment so I can cool off. Then when I have a little distance, I try to come back with a fresh outlook and listen to what he has to say and/or repeat whatever it is I need from him and explain that it needs to happen regardless of his reasons for why it shouldn't be the case. This usually works without leading to a big struggle. The issue is more almost always with *me* not following my own workable plan and engaging more than I need to, so that's where I try to focus my energy. (I still have way more misses than hits, but I'm working on it!)

 

It's tough to want to be right when someone else is trying to convince you that you're wrong. If we (including myself here) can't handle it as adults, it's not really surprising that our children struggle with the same things.

[Melissa in Australia]

I have a couple questions: when is a child too old for a time out? Or standing in the corner (which is what we do)? And, when a child outgrows a time out....what is the next age appropriate discipline?

 

Another question...sort of realated, but not really. We have an 11 year old daughter who has really become VERY argumentive and sassy in her responses. what else can I do to help in this sitiuation? Thanks for any and all help!!!

The answer my dear, is to start studying logic. As soon as my children start to try and argue , It is a sure sign they are entering the logic stage. The more they argue, the more logic they have to study. It worked like a dream with my children ( so far) . The only drawback is that they then shift to arguing to pointing out fallacies in everything I say.

 

My teens are too old for time out etc. loss of screen time is very efective for them. We are currently on a 2 week wii ban.

[ProudGrandma]

thanks for all of the advice. I plan to give her a few chores (one is to clean her totally messsd up room) and use that time as a opportunity to visit with her and bond with her. Letting her know that we know and understand that she is growing up, trying to figure out right from wrong and that she is developing her own ideas about things in her world....and that is a good thing. However, the way that she expresses those ideas is a different thing. And along with expressing ideas comes listening. If she would have listened, she would have heard that it was perfectly ok for her to interupt the phone conversation and say good night to our friend (if she really wanted to) or it was perfectly ok to not say good night to our friend becasue we would be seeing her again really soon. (if our friend would have been an out of state friend leaving early the next morning not to be seen again for a very long time, that would have been very different deal). I want to understand that she is growing up and that she is becoming a big girl with her own thoughts and ideas...and I want to allow her those changes in a safe environment but one with boundaries too. Thanks again for your thoughts.

[emeraldjoy]

oh boy howdy do I understand the argumentative nature of this; ours is 12 year old daughter who sounds pretty similar.

 

One aspect I would like to mention briefly (as I skimmed through I didnt see it mentioned) is ......hormones, puberty, changing. Remember this..especially for a girl at this age. I have to tell myself this all the time. I don't think it is an excuse, per se, but acknowledging it can serve to decrease some of the intensity.

 

:grouphug:

and...when you figure it out...let me know!!