Washington University in St Louis - Pre Med Day - trip report

[creekland]

I suppose this is a trip report as we just finished Washington University in St Louis' special Pre-Med Day yesterday.

 

Middle son is in love... This was his current top choice school from mailings and internet research and the visit only boosted it up in his opinion. He has yet to visit other schools for himself, but tagged along at several when oldest son was doing his comparing.

 

Overall, the University is fairly self-contained on its own campus and is near downtown St. Louis in a safe section of the city. Housing is provided for all 4 years. Students live in residential colleges with all freshmen living together, all sophomores living together, then get other options as juniors and seniors (but the tour guide didn't go into those). Dorms are co-ed, but rooms and bathrooms are not. The room we saw was a modern type with two rooms connected by a shared bathroom. It looked great. They also have traditional rooms. My guy doesn't care a hoot about the dorms, but I thought I'd mention it as I care somewhat. Forest Park - the largest urban park in the US - is right next door. In Forest Park are several free attractions like the zoo and a couple of museums (free attractions are great for college students).

 

Academically this is one of the top of the top schools and competes with Ivy + top other schools for students. The mid-range ACT scores are 32 - 34 and pretty much all students are at or near the top of the top of their class. They have no problem admitting homeschoolers and only suggest adding an extra outside recommendation or two from us. Those recommendations should be academic, but one can be from a coach or youth group leader. No SAT 2 subject tests are needed. When I asked if I should have middle son take any since he homeschools the adcom told us, "Don't have him take any just for us." They want to see the scores of the ACT/SAT/GPA as a baseline (he has this), but then are looking for "other things," mainly a love of learning and and interesting extra curriculars otherwise. The letters of recommendation, his application, and his essay will be key from this point on.

 

They will often give credit for AP exams if the student scores a 4 or 5, BUT for pre-meds, they don't give credit for AP Bio or Chem (and I'm not sure about Calc) BECAUSE MED SCHOOLS DO NOT WANT TO SEE THOSE CREDITS. They want to see those classes taken at a 4 year college. This is in black and white on their FAQ page. I know that has sometimes been debated on here, so I thought I'd share what we learned from the horse's mouth so to speak.

 

Their med school (and regular) advising seems top notch. Their grading is tougher than other top schools (well known for this), but their stats show that their students make it into med schools with lower GPA's than other schools to make up for it. 90% of their med school applicants get in somewhere and they don't weed anyone out by committee as most schools do. They DO show preference to their grads in their own med school which is currently ranked #4 in the nation, but is sometimes #1. The top 5 med schools are all pretty much equal if you ask me.

 

They are not cut throat (a biggie for both middle son and me). They work hard to help a student succeed and study groups are common, plus they have a help/tutoring/writing lab center. They have oodles of activities for students to participate in, but also warn incoming Pre-Meds to not spread themselves too thin. 60% of undergrad Pre-Meds also work in research - they told us pretty much all who want to can. I believe their graduation rate (in 4 years) was in the 90% range. The majority of those not going into grad school of some sort find jobs in their field even in this economy, but I forgot the exact percentage (sorry - it just didn't apply to us since middle son wants med school).

 

Pre-med wise, I love that they take these students under their wings and literally groom them to get them into med school. They have opportunities to see so much more via their teaching/research hospital, even as undergrads, than many other places. They don't say what you want to hear as much as they tell it as it is (like with AP credits and other aspects of entering med school).

 

The students we met seemed happy and loved their school.

 

The professors we met seemed happy and loved their students. When asked to sum up a "typical" student everyone used the words smart or intelligent or "loves to learn." This matches my guy exactly.

 

Diversity is big. They have students from all 50 states plus several countries as well as other diversity.

 

The whole day - including son's interview - was casual dress.

 

The dining hall had multiple options and seemed nice. We ate at the Chinese place there - too hot (spicy) for me, but middle son loved it.

 

The campus makes an effort to be GREEN. They have recycling in many places as well as recycled products (papers, pens) and have pretty much everywhere smoke-free - even outside. We love this aspect, but consider it a perk - not a reason why to make a decision.

 

They say they are good with financial aid.

 

Honestly, the only reason middle son isn't stopping all college visits and just going there is that their acceptance rate is just 15% (like all top schools, just having top scores/grades is no guarantee of acceptance) and they are expensive, so we're not sure we can afford it. He is likely to apply Early Decision BECAUSE they said if the student can't come after an early decision acceptance due to finances, they will allow the contract to be broken. He specifically asked. They also said if he gets accepted they will do everything they can to see that it is financially feasible and they don't go with high loans.

 

Meanwhile, we've dropped Davidson and Franklin & Marshall from his list of colleges to visit as he's pretty certain he wants a top research U instead of a LAC. We're keeping Furman on the list - just in case plus it was #2 on his pre-visit list. We're also visiting Pitt next month as it's a safety for us/him and a good Pre-Med research U. Then I'm still going to have him visit Emory, Alabama (another safety), Case Western, and U of Rochester later this year. He's dropped interest in Yale (didn't like it being in a bad section of town).

 

Middle son has not yet been challenged in his academic experience and is drooling at the idea of being with peers aiming toward a top educational experience and a top med school. He loved the limited interaction with the students and profs provided with this short visit.

 

Meanwhile, I'm mulling the whole thing. I liked the school too and would be happy to have him go here. But, I had told him he could go anywhere he wanted as long as it was EAST of the Mississippi River (distance limit - there are tons of good schools reasonably close to us). If he gets accepted, do we drive him to East St Louis, IL and let him swim??? ;)

 

If anyone has questions, feel free to ask. I'm sure there's more I'm not thinking about as we pack up to drive home.

[Jane in NC]

Sounds like you had a great trip!

 

Just as a side note, the son of one of my friends just graduated from Wash U. Her daughter graduated a few years ago from an Ivy. Her comment was while it was a greater challenge to be accepted at the Ivy, she felt (and her daughter felt) that her son's coursework was more challenging at Wash U.

 

They have only positive comments on the school.

 

Good luck!

 

Jane

[choirfarm]

Meanwhile, I'm mulling the whole thing. I liked the school too and would be happy to have him go here. But, I had told him he could go anywhere he wanted as long as it was EAST of the Mississippi River (distance limit - there are tons of good schools reasonably close to us). If he gets accepted, do we drive him to East St Louis, IL and let him swim??? ;)

 

QUOTE]

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

I'm glad you had such a great visit!!! It sounds like a great school if you are looking at pre-med. So far oldest two have no interest in following dad's footsteps ( hours are too bad and they are squeamish as well) but my daughter may be another story.

 

Christine

[wapiti]

Sometime recently I was reading a random discussion board (that must have popped up on google), with the topic of choosing a college for pre-med. There was arguing about the perceived rigor of the education at a school and/or prestige vs. how hard the school is known to grade. One guy claimed that, for example, between MIT and Princeton, Princeton has a much higher acceptance rate for their students into med school because they grade much easier, i.e., the students higher GPAs than the MIT students. Apparently there are schools for which stats on their med school acceptance rate can be had, and the claim was made that the med schools don't necessarily account for differences in scientific rigor sufficient to make up for the lower GPAs. Others disagreed, and thought that the med school admissions people would take into account the difference. (maybe this is a little bit like a discussion that could be had over how college admissions view high school rigor vs GPA.) Now that I think about it, I don't think the discussion included the angle of differences among the med schools themselves in terms of prestige or difficulty of admisssions, and which colleges the more prestigious med schools are likely to accept.

 

Anyway, I vaguely recall that Wash U was known to be harder on grading, even though there's no argument with the excellent quality of the program. Just wanted to throw that out there. Heck I'd be thrilled with Wash U. (Also, a boy I was friends with in high school - and we'll leave it at that :D - is now on the med school faculty there. Very, very bright guy, as you'd expect. I used to write him notes in Latin, LOL. Not the class, the language.)

 

I'd try to find it again, though I have no clue how I'd search for it. It was probably a College Confidential type of board.

 

It sounds like it was a very exciting day :)

Edited June 17, 2011 by wapiti

[Kareni]

Thanks for the very comprehensive review, creekland. I hope you'll continue to share your impressions of other colleges that you visit.

 

Best wishes to you and your son as he goes through the college application process!

 

Regards,

Kareni

[FourOaks]

Creekland,

You can drop him off on the IL side but he wouldn't have to swim. He can just take the MetroLink!! ;)

[Medstudent]

Hi!

 

I'm completely new here and came across this forum pretty randomly, so I apologize if I don't follow some sort of "etiquette". My name is Emily and I'm a med student (2 weeks away from starting my third year!) at a great med school in the South, but I went to college in the Northeast. I wasn't home schooled, though I am Catholic and have tried to be as involved as I could in Catholic affairs throughout my education. Just wanted to say a couple of things in reference to your post!

 

I have a couple of friends (classmates) from Wash U and it's a great school. They are very smart, very driven and are doing exceptionally well in med school. That being said, they do often mention that Wash U was pretty competitive. Unfortunately, tour guides are rarely straightforward about that stuff- they're not lying, they just might not have the "pulse" of the program. Most of the time, if you're not a premed, you're not really part of the high-pressure crowd so you don't really know it exists. I can assure you though that if your son really is interested in medicine, the competition is only beginning, and it's completely unavoidable.

 

Please feel free to ask me any questions about colleges or med school if you'd like. I've been active in various forums and am happy to share whatever "wisdom" I may have. I realize parents' perspectives may be different from mine, but I think I'm pretty self-aware and observant, so I might be able to shed light on this side of things.

 

This is a great forum, though! Good luck to your son, and please let me know if he has any questions at all too. I'm happy to help.

[creekland]

Sounds like you had a great trip!

 

Just as a side note, the son of one of my friends just graduated from Wash U. Her daughter graduated a few years ago from an Ivy. Her comment was while it was a greater challenge to be accepted at the Ivy, she felt (and her daughter felt) that her son's coursework was more challenging at Wash U.

 

They have only positive comments on the school.

 

Good luck!

 

Jane

 

That's great to know! He wants more challenging - at least at this point. ;) Thanks Jane!

 

 

There was arguing about the perceived rigor of the education at a school and/or prestige vs. how hard the school is known to grade. One guy claimed that, for example, between MIT and Princeton, Princeton has a much higher acceptance rate for their students into med school because they grade much easier, i.e., the students higher GPAs than the MIT students. Apparently there are schools for which stats on their med school acceptance rate can be had, and the claim was made that the med schools don't necessarily account for differences in scientific rigor sufficient to make up for the lower GPAs. Others disagreed, and thought that the med school admissions people would take into account the difference. (maybe this is a little bit like a discussion that could be had over how college admissions view high school rigor vs GPA.) Now that I think about it, I don't think the discussion included the angle of differences among the med schools themselves in terms of prestige or difficulty of admisssions, and which colleges the more prestigious med schools are likely to accept.

 

Anyway, I vaguely recall that Wash U was known to be harder on grading, even though there's no argument with the excellent quality of the program. Just wanted to throw that out there. Heck I'd be thrilled with Wash U. (Also, a boy I was friends with in high school - and we'll leave it at that :D - is now on the med school faculty there. Very, very bright guy, as you'd expect. I used to write him notes in Latin, LOL. Not the class, the language.)

 

 

 

I'm quite certain I read that thread and it was on College Confidential. We've been debating the merits of each type of college for quite some time in our family and chose our list of colleges to check out accordingly. When it comes down to it, my guy is chomping at the bit to do something more challenging than he has been able to get here at home or with the community college courses. He wants similarly capable peers more than he wants to be top of the pack. He likes the idea of possibly being able to get into a top med school (vs "a" med school). He's told us he wants to know if he can do it. If not, then he'll be happy wherever he gets in as long as he can become a doctor, but he wants to try for top. When I look at the top med schools and where their freshmen class came from, they are mostly filled with top caliber schools with occasional "others." I'm thinking his best odds are taking classes with other top kids, enjoying his education, and seeing where he fits in. With Wash U I feel fairly certain he will end up at "a" med school as a minimum as it will really surprise me if he can't compete with the others. He may not get "top," but he knows that.

 

That said, due to our finances, he might very well end up at Pitt so I'm hoping he likes that school too. Their med school is not top 10, but it sometimes comes in the top 20.

 

 

Creekland,

You can drop him off on the IL side but he wouldn't have to swim. He can just take the MetroLink!! ;)

 

:lol::lol: How good to know! He'll be relieved!

 

I am glad they have free metrolink as he'll be flying in and out after the initial drop off if he goes here.

 

 

Hi!

 

I'm completely new here and came across this forum pretty randomly, so I apologize if I don't follow some sort of "etiquette". My name is Emily and I'm a med student (2 weeks away from starting my third year!) at a great med school in the South, but I went to college in the Northeast. I wasn't home schooled, though I am Catholic and have tried to be as involved as I could in Catholic affairs throughout my education. Just wanted to say a couple of things in reference to your post!

 

I have a couple of friends (classmates) from Wash U and it's a great school. They are very smart, very driven and are doing exceptionally well in med school. That being said, they do often mention that Wash U was pretty competitive. Unfortunately, tour guides are rarely straightforward about that stuff- they're not lying, they just might not have the "pulse" of the program. Most of the time, if you're not a premed, you're not really part of the high-pressure crowd so you don't really know it exists. I can assure you though that if your son really is interested in medicine, the competition is only beginning, and it's completely unavoidable.

 

Please feel free to ask me any questions about colleges or med school if you'd like. I've been active in various forums and am happy to share whatever "wisdom" I may have. I realize parents' perspectives may be different from mine, but I think I'm pretty self-aware and observant, so I might be able to shed light on this side of things.

 

This is a great forum, though! Good luck to your son, and please let me know if he has any questions at all too. I'm happy to help.

 

You are an awesome asset to this forum!!! Please STAY! I'm 100% new to getting a student into pre-med with aims of med school. Our family education has been in Physics (mine) and Engineering (hubby). Oldest son is going to a great Christian college for his needs (microfinance/business), but it was relatively easy to figure out. I've been reading so much the past couple of years regarding pre-med that I feel "somewhat" educated, but your having been there, doing that will be incredibly helpful for many of us on this list.

 

And yes, he's aware that overall Pre-Med is competitive, but what he/we've heard about some similar caliber schools (like Johns Hopkins which is fairly close to us) is incredible for competitiveness (sabotaging peers, etc). I get the feeling that at Wash U the competitiveness is mainly academic and I think that may well be true at any school. He's wanting to enter the race for that - at this point. We're still checking out other schools to see what he thinks.

 

Did you take the AP Calc test and accept credit for it for college? Our biggest question right now is whether he should take the AP test in Calc or just take the course for the experience, then take the course for credit in college. I'm really leaning toward the latter, but would love your insight. Of course, this will also depend on whether your med school requires Calc for admission. Wash U does. I know many don't.

[creekland]

Please feel free to ask me any questions about colleges or med school if you'd like. I've been active in various forums and am happy to share whatever "wisdom" I may have. I realize parents' perspectives may be different from mine, but I think I'm pretty self-aware and observant, so I might be able to shed light on this side of things.

 

This is a great forum, though! Good luck to your son, and please let me know if he has any questions at all too. I'm happy to help.

 

Any chance you'd be willing to ask your classmates if they are glad they went to Wash U or if they wish they had gone somewhere less challenging?

[Luckymama]

Do you know what percentage of the class is taken by ED?

 

Do they send financial aid info with the ED decision or do you have to wait for the spring?

 

Dd16 is looking at pre-med :)

[Medstudent]

 

You are an awesome asset to this forum!!! Please STAY! I'm 100% new to getting a student into pre-med with aims of med school. Our family education has been in Physics (mine) and Engineering (hubby). Oldest son is going to a great Christian college for his needs (microfinance/business), but it was relatively easy to figure out. I've been reading so much the past couple of years regarding pre-med that I feel "somewhat" educated, but your having been there, doing that will be incredibly helpful for many of us on this list.

 

And yes, he's aware that overall Pre-Med is competitive, but what he/we've heard about some similar caliber schools (like Johns Hopkins which is fairly close to us) is incredible for competitiveness (sabotaging peers, etc). I get the feeling that at Wash U the competitiveness is mainly academic and I think that may well be true at any school. He's wanting to enter the race for that - at this point. We're still checking out other schools to see what he thinks.

 

Did you take the AP Calc test and accept credit for it for college? Our biggest question right now is whether he should take the AP test in Calc or just take the course for the experience, then take the course for credit in college. I'm really leaning toward the latter, but would love your insight. Of course, this will also depend on whether your med school requires Calc for admission. Wash U does. I know many don't.

 

I've actually heard that about Hopkins as well! It's true that Wash U doesn't strike me as the outright sabotage kind of place, so he should be safe from that. Part of it too will depend on how much his major buffers him from the premed mindset vs is primarily populated by other premeds. I ended up double majoring in neuroscience and literature. The first major added to my stress, though I found it very interesting, mainly because most of the other students were premed as well. We didn't sabotage each other by any means, but everyone knew that they had to get as many a's as possible, so the grading curve was always steep and we all knew that at base, we were competing against one another. On the other hand my literature major was more of a buffer- I was surrounded by totally different students, who were more focused on really enjoying the subject than getting a high gpa. So I imagine your son's experience will be greatly dependent on what classes he takes and the makeup of those classes.

 

As for calculus: I've never been much of a math person, so I didn't take AP Calc in high school. I did take a basic calc class in college so that it wouldn't keep me out of any med school, but I know plenty of people who got away with just taking the AP credit. If I were your son, I'd take the class now, learn it well, then retake it in college and have a guaranteed good grade that counts toward your science gpa (in case you don't know, med schools will look both at your cumulative gpa and the "bcpm", or bio, chem, physics and math gpa, separately). AP's and med schools don't mesh well most of the time, and especially for the hard sciences they tend to frown upon those credits. Math is a different story, but if your son is pretty good at it already, there's no reason for him not to take the good grade he'll get in college. The fine art of the premed "gpa buffering" is something he'll learn soon enough ;).

 

The friends I know who went to Wash U all really liked it. They say St Louis is kind of sketchy and that you can't really leave the campus bubble because the city as whole is fairly dangerous. On the other hand, the campus makes up for it by having a lot of stuff to do. It's also gorgeous. I think the general consensus is "Wash U is great except for the St. Louis part". I went to college in Boston so not being able to walk in the areas around my school is kind of an alien thought to me, but not everyone "needs" to be in or near a big city, and not everyone feels the need to leave campus all the time.

 

As for rigor of school....that's a tough one. I can answer that too cause I went to a similarly difficult school for college. I think the med school application process has the nasty effect of making you wonder if you chose the right place for college. Let's say you have a very hard-earned 3.5 or 3.6 gpa from Wash U. You took hard classes, worked part time or did research along with class, maybe you double majored, and you avoided all easy buffering classes cause you didn't want to waste your time on stuff that ultimately didn't matter to you. You're not just competing against your classmates anymore when you apply- the truth is, you're also competing against the 4.0, summa cum laude from Joe Schmoe U who majored in pottery making. Nothing whatsoever wrong with pottery making, but in my experience it's not as hard to do well in as, say, biomedical engineering or something. This can be really frustrating when you realize that gpa averages at the top schools are 3.8 and above (Wash U in particular has the reputation of being more concerned with numbers than anything else). One way to counteract that, of course, is by getting a high MCAT score. But still, that isn't the perfect answer because one might argue that it's easier to get a high MCAT if you have the time to take prep classes and only focus on your premed classes vs having a ton of stuff to do for your major. And that doesn't even include the debate of "Harvard and Stanford have grade inflation even though they sound good on paper".

 

Moral of the story: it depends on how your son wants to look at his college education. For me, I sometimes wonder if I would be at Harvard med right now had I gone somewhere easier- my MCAT was high enough, but my GPA wasn't. On the other hand, I'm at an excellent school that will get me where I want to go, so I don't know that going to Harvard Med would really have made that much of a difference. Also, I loved my college experience- it was hard, and I had to sacrifice a lot of social stuff to be the kind of student I wanted to be, but I got as much out of my education as I could, and I have no regrets. I love that I was surrounded by incredibly smart, dedicated students who drove me to work harder than I ever had before. Med school is that x1000 and it can be a very humbling experience for those who have always been the absolute smartest kids at their respective undergrad- so in a way, I'm glad I wasn't. Anyways, it truly depends. If college is mostly supposed to be a stepping stone to med school, and he really doesn't care where he goes, then by all means, go to a reputable state school with a good science program but where students are more varied in terms of background, get your straight a's and never look back. If you want to be in a smaller environment where most students were hand-picked because they were the best of the best in high school, go to Wash U. Either road can take you wherever you want.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Medstudent

[mllehmann]

My husband and I loved going to Wash U as an undergrad (it was 25 years ago). It was challenging, but very supportive. I am encouraging my oldest son to consider it as well.

[cbollin]

My husband and I loved going to Wash U as an undergrad (it was 25 years ago). It was challenging, but very supportive. I am encouraging my oldest son to consider it as well.

 

class of 1990 here. Olin School for me. A&S for my dh (chem and math).

 

I remember it being challenging but supportive. not cut throat. had plenty of pre med friends. there were "weed out courses" naturally for pre meds. that's to be expected.

 

Plenty to do or and near campus - including walking to the Loop (delmar)

and getting the bus to the mall. I wouldn't travel alone in Forest Park.

my in laws all still live in the area. St. Louis isn't that bad. ;) plenty of real sports, the whispering wall at Union Station, all the stuff in Forest Park (free free free! I must have watched plenty of plays at the Muny from the cheap/free section the summers I stayed in st. louis)

 

part of me wants to visit campus and especially the south 40 to see how it's all changed. I know the high rises are gone. What? no Elliott and Shepley Halls? what?

I do wonder if there's any way my kid could attend there these days. I still faint at the price tag.

 

sorry.. getting all sentimental.

 

-crystal

[Pixie]

class of 1990 here. Olin School for me. A&S for my dh (chem and math).

 

I remember it being challenging but supportive. not cut throat. had plenty of pre med friends. there were "weed out courses" naturally for pre meds. that's to be expected.

 

Plenty to do or and near campus - including walking to the Loop (delmar)

and getting the bus to the mall. I wouldn't travel alone in Forest Park.

my in laws all still live in the area. St. Louis isn't that bad. ;) plenty of real sports, the whispering wall at Union Station, all the stuff in Forest Park (free free free! I must have watched plenty of plays at the Muny from the cheap/free section the summers I stayed in st. louis)

 

part of me wants to visit campus and especially the south 40 to see how it's all changed. I know the high rises are gone. What? no Elliott and Shepley Halls? what?

I do wonder if there's any way my kid could attend there these days. I still faint at the price tag.

 

sorry.. getting all sentimental.

 

-crystal

 

Oh wow Shepley is gone???? I spent a year at Wash U in 94-95 as an exchange student and lived in Shepley. I remember the school as challenging but like other said also very supportive, coming from France it was such a different mindset. And the campus was just beautiful.

[lisak]

Thought I would comment being a Missourian. Wash U is big stuff! My doctor graduated from there many years ago and she is great. But you do have to be very careful in the city. Forest Park is beautiful and has many things, but just be careful.

 

One thing I have noticed over the years is that many of their students work in the nearby hospitals with the seasoned doctors. Also, many of their professors are considered the experts in their field and still take patients.

[creekland]

Do you know what percentage of the class is taken by ED?

 

Do they send financial aid info with the ED decision or do you have to wait for the spring?

 

Dd16 is looking at pre-med :)

 

I don't know the exact percentage, but it could be online somewhere. I was just told that the percentage is significantly better.

 

From info they sent us, financial info is likely to still come in the spring. This may pose a problem for us if Pitt offers a significant package and we need to decide before an app to Wash U is even in. Pitt has rolling admissions and gives out financial aid soon afterward. I'm not certain when they ask for a commitment. I do know middle son is planning on applying to Pitt when it is free at this upcoming doctor day in July. He won't hear back until Oct, but it's pretty much a formality on the acceptance. They aren't even requiring an official ACT if he has his official mailed copy. They've already said they'll transfer his cc credits and mentioned their Honors College. The financial aid is less clear since we're in state and they tend to favor out of state for great award amounts (hearsay).

 

We've been talking about this possible dilemma this morning. He may just end up at Pitt if it all works out well. I don't know.

 

We're also not planning on skipping other college visits. If, after all of them are complete, Wash U is still his #1 choice, we'll have to revisit our thoughts and really think about it. Wash U really does seem like the perfect fit for him personality-wise and for superb academic/medical opportunities, but finances do matter to us.

[creekland]

I've actually heard that about Hopkins as well! It's true that Wash U doesn't strike me as the outright sabotage kind of place, so he should be safe from that. Part of it too will depend on how much his major buffers him from the premed mindset vs is primarily populated by other premeds. I ended up double majoring in neuroscience and literature. The first major added to my stress, though I found it very interesting, mainly because most of the other students were premed as well. We didn't sabotage each other by any means, but everyone knew that they had to get as many a's as possible, so the grading curve was always steep and we all knew that at base, we were competing against one another. On the other hand my literature major was more of a buffer- I was surrounded by totally different students, who were more focused on really enjoying the subject than getting a high gpa. So I imagine your son's experience will be greatly dependent on what classes he takes and the makeup of those classes.

 

As for calculus: I've never been much of a math person, so I didn't take AP Calc in high school. I did take a basic calc class in college so that it wouldn't keep me out of any med school, but I know plenty of people who got away with just taking the AP credit. If I were your son, I'd take the class now, learn it well, then retake it in college and have a guaranteed good grade that counts toward your science gpa (in case you don't know, med schools will look both at your cumulative gpa and the "bcpm", or bio, chem, physics and math gpa, separately). AP's and med schools don't mesh well most of the time, and especially for the hard sciences they tend to frown upon those credits. Math is a different story, but if your son is pretty good at it already, there's no reason for him not to take the good grade he'll get in college. The fine art of the premed "gpa buffering" is something he'll learn soon enough ;).

 

The friends I know who went to Wash U all really liked it. They say St Louis is kind of sketchy and that you can't really leave the campus bubble because the city as whole is fairly dangerous. On the other hand, the campus makes up for it by having a lot of stuff to do. It's also gorgeous. I think the general consensus is "Wash U is great except for the St. Louis part". I went to college in Boston so not being able to walk in the areas around my school is kind of an alien thought to me, but not everyone "needs" to be in or near a big city, and not everyone feels the need to leave campus all the time.

 

As for rigor of school....that's a tough one. I can answer that too cause I went to a similarly difficult school for college. I think the med school application process has the nasty effect of making you wonder if you chose the right place for college. Let's say you have a very hard-earned 3.5 or 3.6 gpa from Wash U. You took hard classes, worked part time or did research along with class, maybe you double majored, and you avoided all easy buffering classes cause you didn't want to waste your time on stuff that ultimately didn't matter to you. You're not just competing against your classmates anymore when you apply- the truth is, you're also competing against the 4.0, summa cum laude from Joe Schmoe U who majored in pottery making. Nothing whatsoever wrong with pottery making, but in my experience it's not as hard to do well in as, say, biomedical engineering or something. This can be really frustrating when you realize that gpa averages at the top schools are 3.8 and above (Wash U in particular has the reputation of being more concerned with numbers than anything else). One way to counteract that, of course, is by getting a high MCAT score. But still, that isn't the perfect answer because one might argue that it's easier to get a high MCAT if you have the time to take prep classes and only focus on your premed classes vs having a ton of stuff to do for your major. And that doesn't even include the debate of "Harvard and Stanford have grade inflation even though they sound good on paper".

 

Moral of the story: it depends on how your son wants to look at his college education. For me, I sometimes wonder if I would be at Harvard med right now had I gone somewhere easier- my MCAT was high enough, but my GPA wasn't. On the other hand, I'm at an excellent school that will get me where I want to go, so I don't know that going to Harvard Med would really have made that much of a difference. Also, I loved my college experience- it was hard, and I had to sacrifice a lot of social stuff to be the kind of student I wanted to be, but I got as much out of my education as I could, and I have no regrets. I love that I was surrounded by incredibly smart, dedicated students who drove me to work harder than I ever had before. Med school is that x1000 and it can be a very humbling experience for those who have always been the absolute smartest kids at their respective undergrad- so in a way, I'm glad I wasn't. Anyways, it truly depends. If college is mostly supposed to be a stepping stone to med school, and he really doesn't care where he goes, then by all means, go to a reputable state school with a good science program but where students are more varied in terms of background, get your straight a's and never look back. If you want to be in a smaller environment where most students were hand-picked because they were the best of the best in high school, go to Wash U. Either road can take you wherever you want.

 

Thanks again for your thoughts. The buffering is interesting and I shared that (actually, your whole post) with middle son. He's still not 100% sure what he wants to major in, so it might be a significant part of his thoughts.

 

Doing Calc as a senior without the AP test, then repeating in college was my plan based on what I've seen the best success with from students at our local school, so I'm glad to hear you think it is a good plan too.

 

I know kiddo wants to be in a smaller academic environment where he can share lab times, plus other experiences, with good friends. He wants to know his profs and for them to know him. At the moment, he's less concerned with which medical school he gets into as he's thinking more about general family medicine (but has been told multiple times to wait until med school to make that sort of decision).

 

He's a country kid, so I guess as a parent I worry more about his lack of street smarts. Both hubby and I grew up rural - including our Alma mater (VA Tech). We were in a city when the boys were born, but as they reached school age we wanted to - and did - return to a country area with no regrets at all as it's been a great place to raise kids. We've been working on his street smarts. ;) We chose to homeschool for the academics. I work in our local public high school. While the people/teachers are wonderful people, few have their classes designed to get kids to top levels of education. Even those who would like to are hampered by "tradition." I'm dealing with that with youngest son who loves the atmosphere of ps, but now REALLY sees the need for better academics. That son is not after med school, but would like a top school in his interests (botany).

 

Wash U sounds like a perfect fit for middle son, but we'll see how it all works out. By this time next year we should know. Until then I can envision a few more gray hairs appearing!

[cbollin]

edit out a few years later  :)

[creekland]

I was fine at Wash U. and even Blacksburg has its share of sad events.

 

-crystal

 

Definitely true.

 

I looked up the undergrad U of med school students at Wash U's med school. The data covers the last 15 years. It's VERY telling. One definitely has better chances at certain schools. A couple of schools on my guy's list seem to have no chance as they haven't sent a student there in the past 15 years. They may be eliminated from consideration very soon - perhaps without a visit. A couple others might join the list.

 

Here's the link in case anyone is interested - then scroll over undergraduate institutions represented.

 

http://medadmissions.wustl.edu/HowtoApply/selectionprocess/Pages/WhoChoosesWU.aspx

 

I don't see an actual list from Harvard, but I might not have searched enough. I do see a profile saying they only have 50+ undergrad institutions represented. My guess is their list isn't much different than Wash U. While the TOP student at other schools might have a chance every now and then, there are certainly schools that appear to send a couple of students every year.

[Medstudent]

Definitely true.

 

I looked up the undergrad U of med school students at Wash U's med school. The data covers the last 15 years. It's VERY telling. One definitely has better chances at certain schools. A couple of schools on my guy's list seem to have no chance as they haven't sent a student there in the past 15 years. They may be eliminated from consideration very soon - perhaps without a visit. A couple others might join the list.

 

Here's the link in case anyone is interested - then scroll over undergraduate institutions represented.

 

http://medadmissions.wustl.edu/HowtoApply/selectionprocess/Pages/WhoChoosesWU.aspx

 

I don't see an actual list from Harvard, but I might not have searched enough. I do see a profile saying they only have 50+ undergrad institutions represented. My guess is their list isn't much different than Wash U. While the TOP student at other schools might have a chance every now and then, there are certainly schools that appear to send a couple of students every year.

 

I would caution you against looking at that list too closely. There is a great deal of self-selection when it comes to who goes where. From what I've seen, a lot of kids from state schools stay in-state for med school, especially because those places tend to be quite a bit cheaper than a private uni like Wash U.

Another thing that your son will realize when he's applying to med schools is that each place has its own "personality", as well as its strengths. Wash U has the highest accepted GPA and and MCAT score (3.8 or 3.9 gpa, 38 mcat, at least 2 years ago when I was applying, it may be a 39 now) out of any med school out there, including Harvard and Hopkins (which both have around 3.8 and 36 average). They seem to give scores a LOT of credit, especially when compared to the other top schools. I know a few people at Harvard and Hopkins who got in with slightly less stellar scores and who had a lot of travel experience, life experience, really interesting and impressive extracurriculars, etc. Wash U doesn't do that, and in fact some of the kids who get in there ONLY get in there because they didn't have enough of the extra "fluff" that the other med schools love. Whether this is good or bad depends on who you are of course, but the point is that this kind of selectivity skews the results. They probably care a lot less about where you come from than what your gpa and mcat were at the end.

 

Another thing is, if your son is interested in family medicine, especially rural medicine, Wash U, Harvard and Hopkins might not be the best fit for him. For one thing, unless he gets a big fat scholarship (which are pretty rare if you don't come from a disadvantaged background) or you guys are willing to foot the bill (which is usually 200-250k for the four years), the amount of money he'd have to take out in loans would be prohibitive as a family doctor. He'd almost definitely have to go through a government program designed to forgive your debt if you commit to primary care somewhere rural or urban of their choosing. Also, the "top schools" are only at the top of the research rankings- if the plan is to go into primary care, he'd be better off somewhere that offers better opportunities for that- rotations through smaller community hospitals, a longer family medicine rotation during third year, more like-minded folks in your class, etc. Example: my school, which is top 10 (or thereabouts) has not had one person go into family medicine in something like 5-6 years. We don't even have a real family medicine rotation third year because students just as a rule do not want to go into it. If your son wanted to go into FM, this might not be the school for him, despite its ranking.

 

Anyways, this is a conversation for 4 years from now, but the reason why I'm saying this is that college probably won't ultimately matter as much as it seems. Wash U med and similarly top-ranked schools might not be the goal 4 years from now. Even if it is, he can get in regardless if his grades and MCAT are high enough, and it might be easier to get a higher gpa at a less competitive school...etc. There are a lot of factors so in the end it's better to just pick the place where you'll be the happiest rather than try to strategize.

[creekland]

My problem right now with his going to a lower rated college is that those seem to burn bridges. Granted, a few top of the top students from some of those schools can get in to highly rated med schools, but, as you said, most go directly to state med schools or similar. I don't want him to have to take a chance that he will be the first person in 15 years to get into somewhere really good if that's what he ends up wanting. If he goes to a more highly rated pre-med school, then he has the opportunity to do well and go wherever he feels led (and gets in) when he finishes.

 

Right now he's thinking family medicine. In reality, knowing him, I fully suspect he will want to specialize and/or go into research. Ever since his youth he's always wanted to know why something happens and has worked at things until he has understood something completely - or as completely as possible. It need not be something academic, but of course, often is. In his microbio cc class, he loved looking at ongoing research more than anything else. In 9th grade he did English under the supervision of a local PhD English prof. She assigned him a "however long you want to make it" research paper on "anything you want." His was 16 pages long on genetic engineering. Even then, he felt he was cutting it way too short. His academically talented older brother - a normal talented achiever - added fluff to make a 6 page paper. The English prof pulled me aside to ask if I realized exactly how talented he was. Being "English," no, I didn't, but I take her word for it. (I'm a Physics grad myself - only one quarter of college level English.) She said he was better than any student she had at college, but it's a low level LAC, so take that for what it's worth!

 

I know what he says, but I also know him. I know how little of the actual opportunities he sees right now. He has the stats to be competitive anywhere and has the work ethic to be competitive once he gets there (assuming he doesn't get sidetracked by a girl or something ;)). He's never been sidetracked by the usual things (and I have two that definitely are). He was literally beaming when he heard the really brief overview of options at Wash U. He's been to other colleges (with his brother and a couple of other local ones), but this school had him inspired with its opportunities. I think other similar colleges will do the same.

 

I've seen literally thousands of high schoolers go through our local high school. Some have been more academically talented than others, but even so, he's different. He's more "normal" on this board than anywhere else. Had he grown up with more informed homeschooling parents he'd have likely accomplished more than he has, but it is what it is and we're going from there. He's crossed the stats bar. Time will tell on the rest. I think he belongs and will feel at home in a different atmosphere, so, at least - assuming he still wants to - I plan to let him try. If he gets in with enough money to attend elsewhere (can be need based), I'll be rooting for him. If not, I'll still be rooting for him.

 

My guess (at the moment, it's changed very recently) is that he's going to like Wash U or Case Western the best - maybe Yale since it's been a "calling" of his for who knows how long. We'll have to see, then see where he gets in, then see what the financial package is. Time will tell.

 

Otherwise, we'll worry about med school down the road IF it happens. My very early bet would be on research - hence, why I'm concerned about research med schools and what they want at the very least. I'm making my educated guess. ;)

 

A year from now I'll be helping youngest research schools good in Botany.

 

Once he's done I'm not quite sure how I'll fill my time on the computer! Minesweeper? :tongue_smilie:

[Medstudent]

My problem right now with his going to a lower rated college is that those seem to burn bridges. Granted, a few top of the top students from some of those schools can get in to highly rated med schools, but, as you said, most go directly to state med schools or similar. I don't want him to have to take a chance that he will be the first person in 15 years to get into somewhere really good if that's what he ends up wanting. If he goes to a more highly rated pre-med school, then he has the opportunity to do well and go wherever he feels led (and gets in) when he finishes.

 

Right now he's thinking family medicine. In reality, knowing him, I fully suspect he will want to specialize and/or go into research. Ever since his youth he's always wanted to know why something happens and has worked at things until he has understood something completely - or as completely as possible. It need not be something academic, but of course, often is. In his microbio cc class, he loved looking at ongoing research more than anything else. In 9th grade he did English under the supervision of a local PhD English prof. She assigned him a "however long you want to make it" research paper on "anything you want." His was 16 pages long on genetic engineering. Even then, he felt he was cutting it way too short. His academically talented older brother - a normal talented achiever - added fluff to make a 6 page paper. The English prof pulled me aside to ask if I realized exactly how talented he was. Being "English," no, I didn't, but I take her word for it. (I'm a Physics grad myself - only one quarter of college level English.) She said he was better than any student she had at college, but it's a low level LAC, so take that for what it's worth!

 

I know what he says, but I also know him. I know how little of the actual opportunities he sees right now. He has the stats to be competitive anywhere and has the work ethic to be competitive once he gets there (assuming he doesn't get sidetracked by a girl or something ;)). He's never been sidetracked by the usual things (and I have two that definitely are). He was literally beaming when he heard the really brief overview of options at Wash U. He's been to other colleges (with his brother and a couple of other local ones), but this school had him inspired with its opportunities. I think other similar colleges will do the same.

 

I've seen literally thousands of high schoolers go through our local high school. Some have been more academically talented than others, but even so, he's different. He's more "normal" on this board than anywhere else. Had he grown up with more informed homeschooling parents he'd have likely accomplished more than he has, but it is what it is and we're going from there. He's crossed the stats bar. Time will tell on the rest. I think he belongs and will feel at home in a different atmosphere, so, at least - assuming he still wants to - I plan to let him try. If he gets in with enough money to attend elsewhere (can be need based), I'll be rooting for him. If not, I'll still be rooting for him.

 

My guess (at the moment, it's changed very recently) is that he's going to like Wash U or Case Western the best - maybe Yale since it's been a "calling" of his for who knows how long. We'll have to see, then see where he gets in, then see what the financial package is. Time will tell.

 

Otherwise, we'll worry about med school down the road IF it happens. My very early bet would be on research - hence, why I'm concerned about research med schools and what they want at the very least. I'm making my educated guess. ;)

 

A year from now I'll be helping youngest research schools good in Botany.

 

Once he's done I'm not quite sure how I'll fill my time on the computer! Minesweeper? :tongue_smilie:

 

Sounds great! And yes, if research is what he's looking for, Wash U will be great for him. He should look into MSTP programs eventually- 8 years of postgrad education, but the government foots the bill and you get out with an MD, PhD in the end and ready for academia.

[creekland]

Sounds great! And yes, if research is what he's looking for, Wash U will be great for him. He should look into MSTP programs eventually- 8 years of postgrad education, but the government foots the bill and you get out with an MD, PhD in the end and ready for academia.

 

You're the second person who's mentioned that he sounds like he'd be perfect for these. I'm assuming it's something I don't need to worry about at all and college advising will take over in proper time?

 

He's been torn between the MD/PhD decision for around a year now and settled on MD for his guidance counselor (that would be me) about 6 months ago. He might be thrilled to find out he can do both as a possibility if he so desires later.

 

How competitive are they compared to med school? Or do I not want to know?

[Medstudent]

You're the second person who's mentioned that he sounds like he'd be perfect for these. I'm assuming it's something I don't need to worry about at all and college advising will take over in proper time?

 

He's been torn between the MD/PhD decision for around a year now and settled on MD for his guidance counselor (that would be me) about 6 months ago. He might be thrilled to find out he can do both as a possibility if he so desires later.

 

How competitive are they compared to med school? Or do I not want to know?

 

Haha well they're definitely pretty competitive, but they're also definitely very self-selective. There aren't that many people who are willing to spend 8 years in grad school, especially when you factor in opportunity costs (4 fewer years of a physician's salary, especially since academic docs make less than private practice ones). Many (most?) MSTP's take some time off in between college and med school too to have enough research experience to prove that they really want to become physician-scientists...also, you can apply as an MSTP and you'll be considered for both the MSTP program and the regular MD, so you may be offered an interview for MD and be able to go to med school anyway, even if you don't get into the MSTP program. You can also apply from within the med school, I have 3 classmates who are now MSTP's who were in the MD program in the beginning. So yeah, don't worry, if it's an MD, PhD he wants, he can get it!

 

Please let me know if he has any questions. I realize that it's really early for the med school discussion, but I've known I wanted to be a doctor since I was a little girl so I had a ton of questions at his age. You're welcome to PM me and I can give him my email address if you'd like!

[creekland]

 

Please let me know if he has any questions. I realize that it's really early for the med school discussion, but I've known I wanted to be a doctor since I was a little girl so I had a ton of questions at his age. You're welcome to PM me and I can give him my email address if you'd like!

 

Thanks! I had him send you a PM with his e-mail address last night. He first told us he wanted to be a doctor in 3rd grade. I didn't think much of it then, but other than considering medical research instead, he hasn't wavered.

 

He's been useful helping take care of our ponies, cats, and dog. I had a "farm kid" vet tech class when I was a young teen. I've taught him everything I know (which at this point, is only that which I still use - shots and quick critical care things). ;)

[Bostonian]

Definitely true.

 

I looked up the undergrad U of med school students at Wash U's med school. The data covers the last 15 years. It's VERY telling. One definitely has better chances at certain schools.

 

The link you posted showed that the college sending the most students to Washington's medical school (after Washington University itself) was Harvard. Well, Harvard students had great SATs and GPAs in high school, and its pre-meds proably do very well on the MCAT, because of their intelligence and motivation. If your kid gets into Harvard but enrolls in a flagship state university to save money, I doubt his medical school admissions chances go down appreciably.

[creekland]

If your kid gets into Harvard but enrolls in a flagship state university to save money, I doubt his medical school admissions chances go down appreciably.

 

Overall, to "any" med school I'd agree with you and say it wouldn't. But it does appear to affect the top med schools. It wouldn't make it impossible, but does give more difficult odds.

 

Pitt is our top state related school for pre-med (as per many educated opinions anyway). Pitt has it's own top 15 med school as per US News. Yet very few undergrads from Pitt made it into Wash U comparatively. Perhaps that's by choice, but somehow I sort of doubt it.

 

Fortunately for us (I suppose it's fortunate anyway), due to the economy hitting hubby's job, Harvard or Yale would be almost free IF kiddo could get in. If the economy were to improve we'd have to put that extra into college payments, but right now it's not looking like it's improving all that much. It actually appears to be on the decline again - which is scary, but that's a different thread.

 

Since Pitt is also on our radar, he'll be seeing how they compare financially with the others.

 

By this time next year we ought to know! :tongue_smilie:

[MyThreeSons]

I attended Wash U back in the late 70s. Their policy at the time was that if you were admitted, they would put together a financial aid package that would make it possible for you to attend. I ended up transferring, however, because of health reasons.

 

While I was an engineering major, many of my friends there were pre-med, including several in the SPIM (Scholars Program in Medicine). I don't know whether they still do SPIM -- it was a program whereby you were pretty much guaranteed a spot in their med school. You couldn't skate thru undergrad, but you didn't have to aim for 4.0. The idea was that they wanted you to feel free to take more difficult courses and courses out of your comfort zone without worrying about how they would impact your GPA.

[creekland]

I attended Wash U back in the late 70s. Their policy at the time was that if you were admitted, they would put together a financial aid package that would make it possible for you to attend. I ended up transferring, however, because of health reasons.

 

While I was an engineering major, many of my friends there were pre-med, including several in the SPIM (Scholars Program in Medicine). I don't know whether they still do SPIM -- it was a program whereby you were pretty much guaranteed a spot in their med school. You couldn't skate thru undergrad, but you didn't have to aim for 4.0. The idea was that they wanted you to feel free to take more difficult courses and courses out of your comfort zone without worrying about how they would impact your GPA.

 

They told us pretty much the same thing on finances, so we're still really debating an ED application if it's still his #1 choice after visiting others.

 

Their Medical Scholars program has changed a bit. They offer it to 10 students, it's highly competitive (as are most of these types of programs), and the student still has to maintain a 3.8 average + a minimum of a 36 on the MCAT. Quite honestly, from what I'm reading, if a student has those stats they are a very strong candidate for med school anyway - though not necessarily Wash U since it, itself, is very competitive. I don't see how a student could take more difficult courses without worry.

 

To anyone else who might be interested, Pitt has a similar program - also super competitive - that allows a certain number of students to go to their med school without taking the MCAT. I'm thinking they still had a GPA minimum, but my thoughts are a little rusty so I don't remember the specifics other than not needing the MCAT.

 

Since the MCAT is going to be revamped starting in 2015 (I think that was the year), not having to take it could be a plus since it might be tougher the first year or two of a "new" test.

[Luckymama]

Hmm didn't know that about the MCAT. Dd will be graduating college in 2017. When do students sit for it? Before senior year? Fall semester? (Having chem GRE flashbacks now, thanks :lol: )

[creekland]

Hmm didn't know that about the MCAT. Dd will be graduating college in 2017. When do students sit for it? Before senior year? Fall semester? (Having chem GRE flashbacks now, thanks :lol: )

 

I believe the MCAT is taken junior year with options to go later if taking time off. (MEDSTUDENT - feel free to update here! I have limits on what I've learned.)

 

Otherwise, I'm hoping it's ok to cut and paste another post (from cc) about the MCAT as I don't personally have knowledge other than what I read. If it's not ok, feel free to delete it (moderator). Here's what it said:

 

One issue that you should be aware of--and any parent of current high school students who are considering medical school--is that starting in Jan 2015, the format and content tested on the MCAT will change significantly.

 

Beginning 2015, the MCAT will have 4 sections, instead of the current 3. In 2015, the writing section will disappear and the 4 new areas will be:

 

Chemistry, Physics and Biochemistry

Cellular and Molecular biology

Behavioral sciences (psychology, sociology, medical ethics)

Critical Reading

 

https://www.aamc.org/download/182662...mendations.pdf

 

The new MCAT will be 7 hours long.

 

Already some medical schools (Harvard, JHU) are revising the courses required for medical school admission.

 

It appears that the traditional year of bio, year of physics, 2 years of chem plus freshman composition will no longer be sufficient. New requirements will likely include genetics, cellular bio, biochemistry, statistics, research methodology, psych, sociology, medical ethics and perhaps even some philosophy.

 

These changes will make it much more difficult to meet med school admission requirements and major in an area other than a science.

 

Having learned this, it's moved schools with significant pre-med experience higher on our lists as compared to "basic" pre-med schools. It's just a gut feeling I have that they will have their students more prepared.

 

But then again, pretty much all of the schools middle son was considering have decent pre-med experience as that was one of his qualifications to begin with. Just now that he's thinking about it more and seeing some of his opportunities, he's more specific in his "fit."

[Medstudent]

I believe the MCAT is taken junior year with options to go later if taking time off. (MEDSTUDENT - feel free to update here! I have limits on what I've learned.)

 

Otherwise, I'm hoping it's ok to cut and paste another post (from cc) about the MCAT as I don't personally have knowledge other than what I read. If it's not ok, feel free to delete it (moderator). Here's what it said:

 

One issue that you should be aware of--and any parent of current high school students who are considering medical school--is that starting in Jan 2015, the format and content tested on the MCAT will change significantly.

 

Beginning 2015, the MCAT will have 4 sections, instead of the current 3. In 2015, the writing section will disappear and the 4 new areas will be:

 

Chemistry, Physics and Biochemistry

Cellular and Molecular biology

Behavioral sciences (psychology, sociology, medical ethics)

Critical Reading

 

https://www.aamc.org/download/182662...mendations.pdf

 

The new MCAT will be 7 hours long.

 

Already some medical schools (Harvard, JHU) are revising the courses required for medical school admission.

 

It appears that the traditional year of bio, year of physics, 2 years of chem plus freshman composition will no longer be sufficient. New requirements will likely include genetics, cellular bio, biochemistry, statistics, research methodology, psych, sociology, medical ethics and perhaps even some philosophy.

 

These changes will make it much more difficult to meet med school admission requirements and major in an area other than a science.

 

Having learned this, it's moved schools with significant pre-med experience higher on our lists as compared to "basic" pre-med schools. It's just a gut feeling I have that they will have their students more prepared.

 

But then again, pretty much all of the schools middle son was considering have decent pre-med experience as that was one of his qualifications to begin with. Just now that he's thinking about it more and seeing some of his opportunities, he's more specific in his "fit."

 

You can take the MCAT whenever you want to, really. If you want to start med school right after college (without taking a gap year), you have to take during your junior year...preferably winter or spring. Applying to med school takes basically a full year all things considered, so the earlier you take the MCAT, the earlier you can send in your apps, and the better your chances are (most schools have rolling admissions so being early is KEY). I'd recommend taking it in February or March of your junior year, so you can get the score a month later and still have a little more time to re-take if necessary before applying in June/July. Then you send in the primary application, wait for the secondary applications, send those in (and pay more money of course), get some invites to interview in late summer/fall/early winter, and find out if you're getting in any time from October to July the year after (seriously, I know someone who got into a med school off the wait list 1 day before classes started).

 

As for the changes to the MCAT...that's interesting, I hadn't heard that. I don't know how I feel about that. On the one hand, I think the writing section was worthless and the addition of social sciences will help, not hurt, people's scores. They've been saying that they would add more biostats material for years now and I think it's very important for med school so I'm glad they're doing it now. However, biochem...honestly, it's not really all that useful, they re-teach you what they want you to know anyway and no one remember detailed pathways from college. What also bothers me is that it sounds like they'll be upping premed requirements. A year of bio with lab, inorganic chem with lab, organic chem with lab, physics with lab, plus some math is plenty. Pre-med isn't a major, it's something you do on TOP of your major, so it's hard enough to fit all those classes plus your major plus whatever classes the college requires for you to graduate...now we have to add stats, probably psych, and 2 semesters of biochem....good Lord. Most science majors will make you take some of that stuff anyway but if you're not a science major, you have ZERO wiggle room with the expanded premed requirements. So much for wanting med students to be balanced, well-rounded people...they're gonna get an army of biochem majors who have only ever been around other premeds. And I think that's really too bad.

 

Anyways, we'll see what happens...

[Luckymama]

Well dd won't be pleased. She was planning on English major w/ premed designation. Her writing is amazing. Guess I'll be doing some serious research this year!

[creekland]

 

As for the changes to the MCAT...that's interesting, I hadn't heard that. I don't know how I feel about that. On the one hand, I think the writing section was worthless and the addition of social sciences will help, not hurt, people's scores. They've been saying that they would add more biostats material for years now and I think it's very important for med school so I'm glad they're doing it now. However, biochem...honestly, it's not really all that useful, they re-teach you what they want you to know anyway and no one remember detailed pathways from college. What also bothers me is that it sounds like they'll be upping premed requirements. A year of bio with lab, inorganic chem with lab, organic chem with lab, physics with lab, plus some math is plenty. Pre-med isn't a major, it's something you do on TOP of your major, so it's hard enough to fit all those classes plus your major plus whatever classes the college requires for you to graduate...now we have to add stats, probably psych, and 2 semesters of biochem....good Lord. Most science majors will make you take some of that stuff anyway but if you're not a science major, you have ZERO wiggle room with the expanded premed requirements. So much for wanting med students to be balanced, well-rounded people...they're gonna get an army of biochem majors who have only ever been around other premeds. And I think that's really too bad.

 

Anyways, we'll see what happens...

 

I don't know nearly as much about the process as you do (obviously), but you've worded my thoughts about it quite accurately. I'm wondering how they expect a non-science major to get it all done and why they are still advocating taking any major one wants without some extra explaining about the "new" courses and MCAT content.

 

I'm also hoping they (Med schools) will accept AP Stats to free up one class. Most of the colleges will. I'm also contemplating having middle son take the AP Psych test - unless that's his ultimate choice as a major or double major. Then colleges won't likely accept it (except I think Pitt will).

[Medstudent]

I don't know nearly as much about the process as you do (obviously), but you've worded my thoughts about it quite accurately. I'm wondering how they expect a non-science major to get it all done and why they are still advocating taking any major one wants without some extra explaining about the "new" courses and MCAT content.

 

I'm also hoping they (Med schools) will accept AP Stats to free up one class. Most of the colleges will. I'm also contemplating having middle son take the AP Psych test - unless that's his ultimate choice as a major or double major. Then colleges won't likely accept it (except I think Pitt will).

 

I think it'll totally depend on how they want to do things. Either they can require all those classes- psych, stats, biochem, whatever else they feel we "need" to know- or they'll just include more of those topics on the MCAT. If the latter, I imagine they'll be plenty happy with an AP stats credit, same for AP psych. If they decide to require the actual class, they probably won't take the AP credit. I imagine the biochem thing is going to happen no matter what, they've been threatening to make biochem a requirement for years. Funny thing is, organic chem is universally reviled because it's a) difficult and b) 100% useless in med school. Inorganic chem is arguably equally useless but at least it isn't as hard. On top of it, orgo is VERY lightly tested on the MCAT- only about 20% of one of the sections, maybe even less. There was a movement for a while to get rid of orgo as a requirement in lieu of biochem...but of course you can't take a college biochem class without having taken orgo. Colleges would basically have to have a premed-only biochem class where they dumb down the actual chemistry and teach you the clinically relevant info (which is what they do in med school) but of course that's not practical, and one might argue that it sends the wrong message to kids anyway (that you just have to memorize a bunch of information instead of understanding it...which by the way is exactly the truth). Anyways, I'm just complaining for its own sake, really, since there isn't an easy solution. As a former double major though, I fear the day that all premeds will have to study the same thing because there's no way to fit anything else into the curriculum. We might as well switch to the European system and just start medicine when we're 18 years old, graduate earlier and skip the "liberal arts" concept if we don't get to explore the liberal arts anyway. Hopefully it won't work out that way...

[creekland]

I'm just really wishing the change wasn't happening right when it matters to middle son. Right now, people know the test/system. In 5 - 10 years after the change they'll have ironed out a new system. Those in the middle could be in for some interesting times as different places opt to change requirements.

 

Or, maybe not. Maybe they'll have it figured out prior to the class of 2016? I'm not going to hold my breath.

[littlebug42]

Creekland,

 

I just thought I would mention that my daughter's pediatric orthopedist is affiliated with Washington University and he is one of the foremost clubfoot researchers in the world. He has isolated two genes now I believe that cause clubfoot. Amazing work he is doing in conjunction with his wife, who is a pediatric neurologist. We drive from Ohio to see him and he is just top notch. What a great environment to be part of.

[creekland]

Creekland,

 

I just thought I would mention that my daughter's pediatric orthopedist is affiliated with Washington University and he is one of the foremost clubfoot researchers in the world. He has isolated two genes now I believe that cause clubfoot. Amazing work he is doing in conjunction with his wife, who is a pediatric neurologist. We drive from Ohio to see him and he is just top notch. What a great environment to be part of.

 

Thanks for the info. Part of what middle son would really like is to be part of top notch research - though he has no idea which specific area yet.

 

Time will tell to see if he gets in and if we can afford the school.

 

Of course, we still have the other visits to do to see if WUSTL remains his first choice too, but I know he is drawn by the top notch part of it all.

[Nissi]

Creekland, thank you for this thread. It is very helpful. We had not thought of WUSTL before. Ds. is interested in Rice, Baylor, Penn State, BU, and Northwestern as they have combined BS-MD programs that you can get into straight after highschool. Does any one have opinions on these? Our safety school is UNC-Chapel Hill. Does anyone have opinions about their premed program and med. school?

Thanks.

[creekland]

Creekland, thank you for this thread. It is very helpful. We had not thought of WUSTL before. Ds. is interested in Rice, Baylor, Penn State, BU, and Northwestern as they have combined BS-MD programs that you can get into straight after highschool. Does any one have opinions on these? Our safety school is UNC-Chapel Hill. Does anyone have opinions about their premed program and med. school?

Thanks.

 

Rice and Baylor made our original list, but were eliminated mainly due to distance. Baylor MIGHT still make it back on since they are great with financial assistance for top stat kids (hearsay). Upon reading a snippet in a book about Rice (atmosphere et al) middle son didn't care for it. It didn't scream "him." Case Western was probably his favorite due to the book.

 

Living in PA, it's easy to get info about Penn State and Pitt. EVERY single (medically) educated person I have talked with IRL has told me Pitt beats Penn State for the pre-med hopeful. Penn State beats Pitt for the pre-vet hopeful. It's all hearsay, but from people I absolutely have no reason to wonder about their opinion - esp since it's been told to me far more than once. All will also say that either will "work" if one has a preference for one over the other for reasons other than academics/research.

 

We've never considered BU. No reason. It just never made even our original list.

 

Northwestern was on our list to consider until their little sex issue fiasco (just google northwestern and it will likely pop up if you don't remember it). It dropped immediately. There were way too many colleges on our original list anyway, so it was no great loss.

 

I can't recall if I've put it on here or not, but our current list includes:

 

WUSTL

Case Western

U of Rochester

Pitt

Furman

Yale

 

We're still sort of toying with Baylor as an additional safety.

 

We used to have:

 

Franklin and Marshall

Davidson

U of Alabama

 

and probably one or two others I'm forgetting... up until more recently when middle son has been zeroing in on exactly what he wants with a definite preference toward high level research IF he can get in and it's affordable. If not, the others are there as safeties.

 

Pitt may end up the best of both as it's a state related school, in the top 20 for med schools, and offers a (highly competitive) BS/MD program. We're visiting them in mid July for a special Medicine day.

[snowbeltmom]

Pitt may end up the best of both as it's a state related school, in the top 20 for med schools, and offers a (highly competitive) BS/MD program. We're visiting them in mid July for a special Medicine day.

 

I am looking ahead for my rising high school sophomore. Case Western and Wash. U. are currently on his list. Based on the information posted on the websites, Case requires SAT II's and an on campus interview for homeschoolers, while it looks like Wash U. has no additional requirements for homeschoolers. Have you found that to be the case?

 

Does Pitt have any special requirements for homeschoolers? Also, was Johns Hopkins ever on your son's list?

 

Please let us know how the Medicine Day at Pitt goes.

[creekland]

I am looking ahead for my rising high school sophomore. Case Western and Wash. U. are currently on his list. Based on the information posted on the websites, Case requires SAT II's and an on campus interview for homeschoolers, while it looks like Wash U. has no additional requirements for homeschoolers. Have you found that to be the case?

 

Does Pitt have any special requirements for homeschoolers? Also, was Johns Hopkins ever on your son's list?

 

Please let us know how the Medicine Day at Pitt goes.

 

Case does not require SAT 2 tests. They highly recommend them (3), but are ok with other options such as AP or cc college level class grades along with high stats - preferably ACT if without SAT 2. Mainly they want to see grades substantiated - can't blame them there. We are not submitting any SAT 2 tests here as middle son hasn't taken any. He will have an AP test and 3 cc classes as well as a high ACT - higher than their top 25% stat. If he were mid-range on the ACT we'd consider SAT 2 tests. He will also do an interview with them, but we're waiting for fall since they are closer to us. I'd rather he see them in session than in the summer. We're combining trips with U of Rochester - a similar stat (and weather!) school. He'll decide whether or not he's applying to either of those schools after an on campus visit and interview.

 

Wash U has no additional requirements needed and flat out told us, "don't take any SAT 2 tests just for us" when specifically asked at this last visit. They feel any student meeting their stats on the SAT/ACT would easily do the same for SAT 2. They accept a score of 4 or 5 for AP credit, but will not allow AP credit for Bio or Chem for pre-med majors due to med school preferences later on. While not a requirement, for homeschoolers they suggested (in person) being sure to send an extra letter or two of recommendation from instructors outside the family. They don't require an interview, but many have said it helps. My guy did an interview with them and liked how casual it was. At Wash U they told us (group) they like to see certain stats, then the "whole person." I believe they put a lot of emphasis on various aspects of diversity when choosing who gets accepted.

 

Overall, my guy really liked the atmosphere and would absolutely love to study/research/volunteer under some of the great medical minds out there. This is something he doesn't feel he would get at other types of colleges, but we'll have to see if he gets in and if we can afford it. It is how he is zeroing in on schools he likes. He doesn't want "plain" pre-med that can be gotten anywhere. He wants undergrad opportunities and feels he can be competitive with the top of the top. (I feel he can too.) He's positive he's applying at Wash U. If he opts for an ED application, I'll try to have him fly out there to stay on campus (if possible) for a day first - just to be certain. Note... he's only allowed to apply ED based on their statement (to us personally) that it wouldn't be binding if the finances didn't work. In the same breath they told us they try hard to make financing work without "high" loans for everyone who is accepted (and need-based aid works for us).

 

Pitt has no additional requirements and has told us they will accept all his cc credits plus any AP credits. In a way, that kind of turned middle son off considering other schools have been specific about which credits to count or not count when looking at Pre-med. Note though, this was when asking about general admission. We ought to hear differently at the medicine day I think. I'm eagerly looking forward to our visit as many have told us they love it there. Pitt has rolling admissions and middle son will be applying in July when we visit unless he absolutely hates it. If he applies then, they waive the admission application fee and we don't need to have ACT scores sent as long as we bring his official copy. Money saved is helpful.

 

Johns Hopkins was only briefly on our list. We live quite near them and know they aren't located in the best section of town and have heard from many about their cut throat environment. It isn't the setting middle son wants, so they never made the first cut. Their med school would likely interest him when that time comes, but not undergrad. They do have the faculty on par with other top of the tops. The climate differs (and I don't mean weather).

 

To anyone:

 

Just as my son isn't cut throat competitive, I'm not either - even with low admission rate schools. I'm quite willing to share our thoughts and opinions about places we've considered and/or checked out. Anyone reading can feel free to take them or leave them pending their own preferences. The schools we dismiss are NOT bad schools. They just aren't "our" fit.

 

I also love when others add their opinions even if they differ from ours... We want to take it all in, then sift to see what fits us.

[snowbeltmom]

Thank you, Creekland, for sharing your son's journey with us.