Any Rod & Staff Dissenters? What do you NOT LOVE about R&S?

[Burger]

We used several R&S books, including math, spelling, and geography. I never did try their grammar. But I will tell you my impression of their books in general. First of all they are very anti Catholic. This may or may not matter to you but it is nice information to have. I myself had no idea Mennonites hated Catholics so much so it came as a shock to me! I had to use a permanent marker quite a bit throughout the books.

 

 

 

Could you tell me what you found??

 

I can't imagine them having anti-catholic sentiment in their books. Seton home study program uses some Rod and Staff in their curriculum, and that is probably the most "catholic" homeschool option out there.

[NineChoirs]

I have not read all of the R&S books to know what you are talking about. The Mennonite people I know do NOT HATE anyone. They stand strong on their beliefs, but do not hate. And they have used R&S. Do you remember any examples that you can provide to back up this claim?

 

 

Well I blacked them all out ;)

 

I do mean hate, yes. I have used several books from different providers with different beliefs and that is not what I am referring to. They say that people would have been better off as "barbarians" or "heathens" (their words, not mine) than Catholic. There are references to the Catholic Church being oppressive and they accuse it of trying to keep people "ignorant". Seriously, especially in the spelling books, like every other chapter talked about how horrible Catholics were. It was out of place and insulting. And I had always respected the Mennonite lifestyle so I was seriously shocked and upset about it. And it was completely unnecessary. It didn't even have anything to do with spelling. It was pure propaganda.

[NineChoirs]

Could you tell me what you found??

 

I can't imagine them having anti-catholic sentiment in their books. Seton home study program uses some Rod and Staff in their curriculum, and that is probably the most "catholic" homeschool option out there.

 

I know, weird huh? I found out about R&S through Seton. I don't really trust Seton 3rd party recommendations anymore. :glare:

[Susie in MS]

They say that people would have been better off as "barbarians" or "heathens" (their words, not mine) than Catholic. There are references to the Catholic Church being oppressive and they accuse it of trying to keep people "ignorant".

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

To me that says that they do not like what is said in other text books as well. I don't see them hating the Catholic people, but the way they were treated by the church (according to what I have read in other places). They desired for the people to be taught the Word and be allowed to evaluate it for themselves. Again this is from what I have read elsewhere, so I could be mistaken about what R&S is saying since I didn't read it myself. I know the people are very, very kind and reach out to all peoples.

[NineChoirs]

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

To me that says that they do not like what is said in other text books as well. I don't see them hating the Catholic people, but the way they were treated by the church (according to what I have read in other places). They desired for the people to be taught the Word and be allowed to evaluate it for themselves. Again this is from what I have read elsewhere, so I could be mistaken about what R&S is saying since I didn't read it myself. I know the people are very, very kind and reach out to all peoples.

 

 

Well obviously if you are Mennonite the anti Catholicism wouldn't bother you. My comment was intended to be helpful for those who would be bothered by it. It was hatred, whatever the reasoning was behind it (they did not anywhere state what you stated in your post). If I had read similar words about black people, Jewish people etc... I would feel it was hatred as well. Not to mention these were not religion books, they were spelling books. Crikey, why fill a spelling book with attacks on another religion? How is that not indicative of hatred? If you came across a spelling book about how horrible Jewish people were, wouldn't you be up in arms about it? Or is just the attacking of Catholics that is acceptable?

[Susie in MS]

Well obviously if you are Mennonite the anti Catholicism wouldn't bother you. My comment was intended to be helpful for those who would be bothered by it. It was hatred, whatever the reasoning was behind it (they did not anywhere state what you stated in your post). If I had read similar words about black people, Jewish people etc... I would feel it was hatred as well. Not to mention these were not religion books, they were spelling books. Crikey, why fill a spelling book with attacks on another religion? How is that not indicative of hatred? If you came across a spelling book about how horrible Jewish people were, wouldn't you be up in arms about it? Or is just the attacking of Catholics that is acceptable?

 

I'm not Minnonite, nor do I promote hatred of anyone. I think you misunderstand what I am saying. Out of respect for the op desire for this thread I bow out.

[Rosy]

We found R&S to be exceedingly dry and boring. We're finishing up FLL4, then we'll do Analytical Grammar. If we need grammar after AG, we'll see what is available from Peace Hill and go from there.

[NineChoirs]

I'm not Minnonite, nor do I promote hatred of anyone. I think you misunderstand what I am saying. Out of respect for the op desire for this thread I bow out.

 

I think my post came across harsher than I intended. I understood that you were not Mennonite, but you were telling me the point of view of your Mennonite friends which I failed to see the relevance of. Obviously this is a touchy subject which is why I felt it was important to mention. I really wish someone had told me about the anti Catholicism in R&S before I had made a fairly large purchase from them. ;)

 

Again I am sorry if my post came across as harsh. Discussing issues such as these on a forum (especially one so diverse) can be tricky. :blushing:

[TheAutumnOak]

Well I blacked them all out ;)

 

I do mean hate, yes. I have used several books from different providers with different beliefs and that is not what I am referring to. They say that people would have been better off as "barbarians" or "heathens" (their words, not mine) than Catholic. There are references to the Catholic Church being oppressive and they accuse it of trying to keep people "ignorant". Seriously, especially in the spelling books, like every other chapter talked about how horrible Catholics were. It was out of place and insulting. And I had always respected the Mennonite lifestyle so I was seriously shocked and upset about it. And it was completely unnecessary. It didn't even have anything to do with spelling. It was pure propaganda.

 

:confused1: R&S books mention Catholics?...I miss a few posts and everything changes :tongue_smilie:...Now I need to go look through my spelling book because I missed that one!...I am not Catholic, but am interested to see...

[simka2]

Well obviously if you are Mennonite the anti Catholicism wouldn't bother you. My comment was intended to be helpful for those who would be bothered by it. It was hatred, whatever the reasoning was behind it (they did not anywhere state what you stated in your post). If I had read similar words about black people, Jewish people etc... I would feel it was hatred as well. Not to mention these were not religion books, they were spelling books. Crikey, why fill a spelling book with attacks on another religion? How is that not indicative of hatred? If you came across a spelling book about how horrible Jewish people were, wouldn't you be up in arms about it? Or is just the attacking of Catholics that is acceptable?

 

 

I won't use their spelling for this reason. I haven't found these issues in the grammar or math books. Honestly, it's as if someone with some definate anger issues put the spelling curriculum together.

 

OP here's an example from today that had us laughing and making up silly sentences:

 

Copy the adjectives that tell WHOSE.

 

1. Jacob was Isaac's son. 2.Rebekah was his mother. 3.Jacob wanted Easu's birthright. 4. Rebekah helped her son to get the blessing. 5. Laban's daughters were Rachel and Leah. 6. Rebekah was their aunt.

 

When we do this outloud I might say: Ds is Simka's son. DsA wanted Ds'sB Legos. DD helped her brother to get the waffles. Uncle Dan's daughters were Jan and Fran. Pam was their aunt.

[lovelaughs_times_three]

Do you think this is a program that I could/should use as a spine, but use other more fun workbooks (like Scholastic Grammar Games) as the practice? Or is it not well-suited for that? In other words, use this book as the explanationteaching to my kids of what an adjective is, but use other workbooks for the practice in finding the adjectives? Do the lessons lend themselves to this, or is the practice in the books inherent and necessary for the teaching/explanation?

Or, am I better off to stick with Analytical Grammar or Grammar Ace if I'm using it only as a spine?

(I think I'll copy this post and also put it in the thread for those who LOVE this program as well.)

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

NineChoirs, have you seen any anti-Catholic rhetoric in the grammar books? ("building" series)

[johnandtinagilbert]

Let me start by saying, if you use RS you will have kids who can understand grammar and eventually diagram sentences; however, my son changed the name of RS to Rottin' Staff b/c it was SOOOOOO boring. We only did 1/2 the problems and did the Daily practice orally, it was just dry, dry, dry.

 

The problem I had with it, as a teacher, was lack of application. The drill is just that, but I found they could get high marks on their RS (spelling and grammar at the time), but then misspell or not properly analyze sentences when not using RS.

 

That's our experience. We are finding the Phonics Road MUCH more enjoyable and finding the application superior.

[KeriJ]

Well I blacked them all out ;)

 

I do mean hate, yes. I have used several books from different providers with different beliefs and that is not what I am referring to. They say that people would have been better off as "barbarians" or "heathens" (their words, not mine) than Catholic. There are references to the Catholic Church being oppressive and they accuse it of trying to keep people "ignorant". Seriously, especially in the spelling books, like every other chapter talked about how horrible Catholics were. It was out of place and insulting. And I had always respected the Mennonite lifestyle so I was seriously shocked and upset about it. And it was completely unnecessary. It didn't even have anything to do with spelling. It was pure propaganda.

 

It would be helpful to have direct quotes from the spelling books. anyone know of any?

[Avila]

Could you tell me what you found??

 

I can't imagine them having anti-catholic sentiment in their books. Seton home study program uses some Rod and Staff in their curriculum, and that is probably the most "catholic" homeschool option out there.

 

I use the grammar only, and I have continued with it because it is really working for my kids. I can't find anything that explains the concepts as well. But if I didn't already own them, I would reconsider buying them because of negative content in the other subjects. I haven't noticed any serious issues in the grammar through 6th grade, and so I can't justify switching, especially since I don't have anything I like better yo switch to.

 

The only example I have is the 4th grade geography book that kept talking about converting Catholics, especially in the Phillipines section. It gave me the impression that they don't consider us as Christians, although they never said that directly. I was kind of surprised to find that in R&S.

 

I also would not take the use of protestant books by Seton or any other Catholic provider as endorsement for the whole book line. Seton and MODG both use Abeka in spots, and Seton even uses BJU, despite how inaccurately those two represent Catholics in other areas of their curriculum.

 

The Catholic providers do discuss these issues in their lesson plans if you enroll, but just picking the books because they use them won't give you that same information. Check each book out individually for yourself, especially if it is for a subject that your child will be doing as independent work. Every choice has bias and comes with world view. Some will match yours and some will not.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Asenik

[delaney]

After using it 3rd-7th, I'm going to try CLE next year because my feeling is that R&S is over-emphasizing grammatical terms and distinctions at this level while under-emphasizing correct usage, at least for our needs.

That for me as well. Does a 4th grade book really need to differentiate between what kind of object pronoun you are using? I find that to be too deep. We only got to lesson 66 so far because I JUST CAN"T sit with it everyday. I did buy the 5th grade set but may be ditching it for next year and using Saxon or CLE because she really likes the little workbooks:D

[NineChoirs]

NineChoirs, have you seen any anti-Catholic rhetoric in the grammar books? ("building" series)

 

I have not used their grammar series, and after reading many of the posts here I am guessing maybe they are free from it? I still wouldn't trust it though. The math book didn't have any anti Catholic sentiments in it, but it was a lower grade (grade 4) than the spelling books (grades 7 & 8) we were using.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I have not used their grammar series, and after reading many of the posts here I am guessing maybe they are free from it? I still wouldn't trust it though. The math book didn't have any anti Catholic sentiments in it, but it was a lower grade (grade 4) than the spelling books (grades 7 & 8) we were using.

 

Thank you! We've only used the grammar through the 6th grade book and didn't notice anything anti-Catholic. I mean, it was all staunchly pro-Mennonite, obviously, but nothing about other beliefs at all that I recall. I'm going to look again. It would make sense that any such bias would be more evident in the higher grades. I have the 7th grade book here and I'll look through it before giving it to my boys.

[Avila]

I have not used their grammar series, and after reading many of the posts here I am guessing maybe they are free from it? I still wouldn't trust it though. The math book didn't have any anti Catholic sentiments in it, but it was a lower grade (grade 4) than the spelling books (grades 7 & 8) we were using.

 

I have heard there is some, but I haven't seen anything serious 6th and below. I would have to go back and really read it to be sure, but I don't remember anything, and my dd12 says she doesn't either. I have been flipping through 7th, and it has an inaccurate explanation of indulgences in lesson 55. But mostly the stuff is just pro-Mennonite POV (like lessons on nonresistance and such) and not actively anti-anything else, from what I have seen.

[Burger]

I have not used their grammar series, and after reading many of the posts here I am guessing maybe they are free from it? I still wouldn't trust it though. The math book didn't have any anti Catholic sentiments in it, but it was a lower grade (grade 4) than the spelling books (grades 7 & 8) we were using.

 

 

Thanks for this. I have already purchased (they haven't come yet) English 3 and English 5.

 

We are RC and I didn't need another thing to worry about. Although their sentiments are worry enough I suppose :(.

[Guest]

While I am not Catholic, I do not support with my dollar any company that uses such tactics through their curriculum that my kids will be exposed to. I don't have an issue with explaining things I don't agree with in Apologia for example (we are not YE) but this to me is unchristian like behavior. I could look into it further to confirm the points made here but in my case I was only looking at their English as a possible supplement, so why waste my time. Also, Catholicism is a direction we have been considering for our family anyway. I had never looked at their programs until last week. I figured I would check them out since they get such good reviews on the forums here. This has officially taken them off my list.

[Clear Creek]

Well I blacked them all out ;)

 

I do mean hate, yes. I have used several books from different providers with different beliefs and that is not what I am referring to. They say that people would have been better off as "barbarians" or "heathens" (their words, not mine) than Catholic. There are references to the Catholic Church being oppressive and they accuse it of trying to keep people "ignorant". Seriously, especially in the spelling books, like every other chapter talked about how horrible Catholics were. It was out of place and insulting. And I had always respected the Mennonite lifestyle so I was seriously shocked and upset about it. And it was completely unnecessary. It didn't even have anything to do with spelling. It was pure propaganda.

 

 

The sentence in bold above leaves me :confused::confused::confused:. I just sat down and reread the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th grade spelling TM's and there is NO reference to Catholics whatsoever. None, zip, zilch, nada. One of the lessons in the 4th grade book even includes the word "heathen" in the spelling list, and they only defined it as "a person who does not believe in God". They include some Mennonite doctrine (such as wearing a head covering, kneeling to pray, having a minister preach at church), but it is not preachy nor intended to denigrate other denominations...it is simply fill in the blank questions such as "Mother wears a ________ on her head" or "So-and-so _______ in front of the bench to pray" that a child of the Mennonite faith would easily answer. In fact, the majority of the religious references are more along the lines of "God made each pretty cloud", lol!

 

Can you be more clear exactly where you saw the references to Catholics?

[NineChoirs]

The spelling books I used were books 7 & 8. These books include multi paragraph written lesson introductions. I don't believe the lower grades have those (have no idea about grade 6). I don't have to include page numbers, if you have those books you can just page through them, you seriously cannot miss it, it's everywhere.

[Colleen in NS]

Ok, ok, I'm almost convinced to throw out all the grammar plans I had, and give Rod & Staff a try. I started the thread about what you LOVE about Rod & Staff and I got some pretty convincing reasons! So, before I jump, I realized....the people who respond to that post will be the ones who it is working for. I thought, maybe there are dissenters out there who are brave enough to talk to me! So here's your chance for dissension!!! What do you dislike about the program! Warn me now! I'm about to make the leap!!!! ;):lol:;)

 

We are just finishing up level 7 of the grammar series, and in looking at the upper levels, I can see that there is heavier theological and lifestyle indoctrination going on. Even in the grade 7 book. For example, yesterday in the "reference books" lesson (near the end of the book), we were warned that we should use encyclopedias very cautiously because they are made by man. Even as a Christian, I cannot take that seriously. This indoctrination is just going to get heavier, I suspect. But because I like how *grammar* is taught so thoroughly, we've learned how to work around the other stuff.

 

Anyway, OP, I don't know what R&S levels you were thinking of buying. But I will say that TWTM recommends R&S (and FLL for grades 1-4). SWB is working on a grammar book for grade 5, and I think later for grades 6-8, that will be all the grammar you'd need for high school. Which would eliminate the need for R&S 9&10. So, if you are talking R&S levels 1-4, or even 5, for the upcoming year, I'd recommend taking a look at FLL and ALL (Advanced Language Lessons coming out in a few months), if the negatives of R&S now outweigh the positives in your mind, lol!

Edited June 8, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[KeriJ]

The spelling books I used were books 7 & 8. These books include multi paragraph written lesson introductions. I don't believe the lower grades have those (have no idea about grade 6). I don't have to include page numbers, if you have those books you can just page through them, you seriously cannot miss it, it's everywhere.

 

I guess I just don't understand why you cannot give a specific quote???

 

Surely someone has a 7th or 8th grade book handy and can give some examples.

[NineChoirs]

I guess I just don't understand why you cannot give a specific quote???

 

Surely someone has a 7th or 8th grade book handy and can give some examples.

 

I gave the quote I remembered, I also thought I made it clear I blacked out the written portions with a black permanent marker? I hope I am not on trial here. If you want to use the books go for it, I just posted my experience. I shouldn't feel like I have to defend myself. Another poster has already stated that they found the spelling books to be problematic as well so it is not as if I am a lone voice here. The grammar books are far more popular than the spelling books I am sure, and they seem not to have the same issues (although I would definitely find the "man made" encyclopedia comment problematic, but for different reasons). Hopefully someone else with the spelling books will comment, but ultimately you are just going to have to make your own choices.

[KeriJ]

I gave the quote I remembered, I also thought I made it clear I blacked out the written portions with a black permanent marker? I hope I am not on trial here. If you want to use the books go for it, I just posted my experience. I shouldn't feel like I have to defend myself. Another poster has already stated that they found the spelling books to be problematic as well so it is not as if I am a lone voice here. The grammar books are far more popular than the spelling books I am sure, and they seem not to have the same issues (although I would definitely find the "man made" encyclopedia comment problematic, but for different reasons). Hopefully someone else with the spelling books will comment, but ultimately you are just going to have to make your own choices.

 

I don't mean to make it sound like you are on trial. But it's difficult to keep hearing that R&S is making these flaming statements, but not be able to find any specific example as to what they are.:confused:

[TracyP]

I am using R&S Spelling and want to continue with it. Can someone please share a specific quote(s)? I don't ask this because I don't believe you, NineChoirs. I ask because context matters. For example, speaking about the Catholic Church's treatment of Galileo as the church keeping people ignorant would give some context for that kind of statement. I have to decide whether to continue with the program as is, read ahead and black out, or go a completely different path. I would like to know exactly what we are talking about here.

[Colleen in NS]

The math book didn't have any anti Catholic sentiments in it, but it was a lower grade (grade 4) than the spelling books (grades 7 & 8) we were using.

 

We are just about finished the entire math series (up to gr. 8), and I don't remember seeing anything that struck me as anti-Catholic.

 

The spelling books I used were books 7 & 8. These books include multi paragraph written lesson introductions. I don't believe the lower grades have those (have no idea about grade 6). I don't have to include page numbers, if you have those books you can just page through them, you seriously cannot miss it, it's everywhere.

 

I just googled for samples. Found quite a few samples for the gr. 7 and 8 spelling books, including teacher manuals, and didn't see anything that struck me as anti-Catholic.

 

I gave the quote I remembered, I also thought I made it clear I blacked out the written portions with a black permanent marker?

 

No, you're not a lone voice, but you are making claims and not backing them up with *direct quotes.* It just makes it harder for the rest of us to come to our own conclusions, when we can't see exactly what you are talking about.

 

You did say before you'd blacked out portions. Perhaps you could tell us the page numbers of the books where your blacked out portions are and what paragraphs they are in - then if anyone chimes in with "I have those books!" that person might be willing to share the quotes with us. It just makes objective evaluation possible for those of us who can't see the books.

[NineChoirs]

I am going to make this last post before I bow out of this thread. I told you what I read. You can now research & decide for yourself. I am not going to go into my unused book closet looking for books so I can post page numbers. The very suggestion is somewhat crazy to be honest. Most of the posters on this forum are truly wonderful, but some of you are a bit too much. Please just buy the books and decide for yourself whether or not they bother you, it really doesn't make one bit of difference to me what you decide. The OP wanted to hear from dissenters and to know their reasoning. I did that, take it or leave it.

[Guest]

I am going to make this last post before I bow out of this thread. I told you what I read. You can now research & decide for yourself. I am not going to go into my unused book closet looking for books so I can post page numbers. The very suggestion is somewhat crazy to be honest. Most of the posters on this forum are truly wonderful, but some of you are a bit too much. Please just buy the books and decide for yourself whether or not they bother you, it really doesn't make one bit of difference to me what you decide. The OP wanted to hear from dissenters and to know their reasoning. I did that, take it or leave it.

 

I wanted to thank you for posting the red flags that you did for those of us that it matters to. Also, I respect that you did not just post the info and take off. You took the time to post the specific books for those that want to check it further. Personally, I really appreciate you taking the time and I am sorry you have been pressured about this :grouphug:.

 

I order from Canada and while I did not bother at our convention, I was considering ordering from the Canadian vendor. I was already reluctant since I would prefer a secular program. Reading this, I decided there are many other programs out there that I will not have issues like this to worry about with. It gave me the opportunity to consider Easy Grammar from another thread which I saw at our convention and was interested in but was considering Rod and Staff because of all the raving reviews here. So, I wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this and for hanging in there :).

[Colleen in NS]

I am not going to go into my unused book closet looking for books so I can post page numbers. The very suggestion is somewhat crazy to be honest.

 

No, it's actually pretty standard here on the forums and in real life to ask for direct quotes or more specific information to backup claims. If you are making vehement claims, many people are going to ask for direct quotes or page numbers where they can look for themselves, *before they buy,* not afterwards when they might possibly have wasted their money.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[Guest]

Colleen, I do see your point and I myself have (on at least two occasions that I can think of) asked for further proof of what was stated. However, in this case the poster did give additional information. She said to look at levels 7 and 8 of the spelling program. I guess I fail to understand how giving page numbers would help anyone before buying since if they have not purchased yet they do not have the books to begin with, in order to look in them and decide. Also, aren't there any users on here with levels 7 and 8? Why hasn't anyone offered to look this up in their own books even without page numbers?

 

Another thing and one of the reasons that made me decide against it after reading this is, even if NineChoirs did take what was said out of context, why should something like this be mentioned in a spelling program in the first place? Regardless of context. Just my thoughts anyway.

[Chez J]

I have only begun to read the thread, but we're a R&S grammar dropout family. I did not like it, and my dd did not learn using it. It went way too slow and used a mastery approach. So, we didn't even discuss prepositions until nearly the end of the year. We didn't like the book format. We didn't like the exercises. Just didn't like it at all.

 

We switched to CLE and have never looked back. I like CLE so much better, and my daughter LOVES it. It has built-in review without busywork. It teaches spirally, so we don't feel like we're missing things. Most of all, she tests at multiple grade levels above on the Stanford Achievement test.

[Chez J]

Well I blacked them all out ;)

 

I do mean hate, yes. I have used several books from different providers with different beliefs and that is not what I am referring to. They say that people would have been better off as "barbarians" or "heathens" (their words, not mine) than Catholic. There are references to the Catholic Church being oppressive and they accuse it of trying to keep people "ignorant". Seriously, especially in the spelling books, like every other chapter talked about how horrible Catholics were. It was out of place and insulting. And I had always respected the Mennonite lifestyle so I was seriously shocked and upset about it. And it was completely unnecessary. It didn't even have anything to do with spelling. It was pure propaganda.

 

Hi, I just bought Spelling 7 and 8 used at a conference. I'm gonna go look now. I'll post again later. I'm not catholic, but I certainly don't need something like that in a spelling text, for pete's sake! It's just spelling! I suspect it comes in with the sections on the history of the English language, discussions of Old English and etymology, not the acutal spelling lists.

[mama27]

I just looked through our 3rd grade spelling book and did NOT find ANYTHING at all that could in ANY way be considered hatred, or even slight dislike of catholics or anyone.

It's simply not there. Maybe you are thinking of another publisher?

 

 

 

The sentence in bold above leaves me :confused::confused::confused:. I just sat down and reread the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th grade spelling TM's and there is NO reference to Catholics whatsoever. None, zip, zilch, nada. One of the lessons in the 4th grade book even includes the word "heathen" in the spelling list, and they only defined it as "a person who does not believe in God". They include some Mennonite doctrine (such as wearing a head covering, kneeling to pray, having a minister preach at church), but it is not preachy nor intended to denigrate other denominations...it is simply fill in the blank questions such as "Mother wears a ________ on her head" or "So-and-so _______ in front of the bench to pray" that a child of the Mennonite faith would easily answer. In fact, the majority of the religious references are more along the lines of "God made each pretty cloud", lol!

 

Can you be more clear exactly where you saw the references to Catholics?

[mama27]

This sounds to me like you aren't being exactly truthful. people have simply asked you to be more specific and you claim that this bias against Catholics is EVERYWHERE and cannot be missed but you aren't willing to give direct quotes (because you blacked them out) nor are you willing to even give one page number from your unused books. It's actually quite NORMAL for someone to want to see these and decide for themselves. If you are going to make a claim that the Mennonites HATE the Catholics, then you should have NO problem proving what you say, if indeed it is true. Because you refuse it seems to ME, IMO, that you are not being truthful and are biased yourself against R&S for whatever reason.

Sorry, if this sounds harsh, I just don't understand why you would make these claims, then refuse to show others so they can see it for themselves and not waste their money on supporting a company they don't agree with.

 

 

I am going to make this last post before I bow out of this thread. I told you what I read. You can now research & decide for yourself. I am not going to go into my unused book closet looking for books so I can post page numbers. The very suggestion is somewhat crazy to be honest. Most of the posters on this forum are truly wonderful, but some of you are a bit too much. Please just buy the books and decide for yourself whether or not they bother you, it really doesn't make one bit of difference to me what you decide. The OP wanted to hear from dissenters and to know their reasoning. I did that, take it or leave it.

[Rjmakmom]

I am using Rod & Staff English 2 & 5, as well as Spelling 2, 4 & 6. I was raised RC, and I would not be willing to use anything that was derogatory to the faith in which I was raised. I have, to date, never seen anything that in any way resembles what has been mentioned. I also found that the Rod and Staff program, in it's entirety, is not only mentioned on the EWTN website, but highly recommended. http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMESCHL/CATHHS.HTM

 

I would also like to see some page numbers/ exact quotes to support the comments made earlier.

[Avila]

I am using Rod & Staff English 2 & 5, as well as Spelling 2, 4 & 6. I was raised RC, and I would not be willing to use anything that was derogatory to the faith in which I was raised. I have, to date, never seen anything that in any way resembles what has been mentioned. I also found that the Rod and Staff program, in it's entirety, is not only mentioned on the EWTN website, but highly recommended. http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMESCHL/CATHHS.HTM

 

I would also like to see some page numbers/ exact quotes to support the comments made earlier.

 

If you scroll down to the bottom of that article, you will see that it was written in 1983. Those recommendations are no longer current and in the book that came out of that original pamphlet, she no longer makes those recommendations. I don't know why EWTN hasn't updated that.

 

I don't have a page number for my issue with the geography book because I no longer own the book. When it didn't suit my needs, I got rid of it. For the English 7 book, the inaccurate information is in lesson 55 in the review exercise. It isn't actively anti-Catholic, per se, but it does reflect a misunderstanding of what an indulgence is, and it is something I would rather have not had in my English book.

 

I think the issue is that, while I would certainly expect R&S to reflect their own values in their textbooks, I don't necessarily expect doctrinal-specific information in English (or spelling, for that matter). My bad, I guess. And since this is an issue in the Upper Grades mostly, I think it can take people by surprise. If I have been happily using and recommending these books K-6, and then book 7 is a radical departure in this area, it is rather upsetting.

 

I hope someone who owns Spelling 7 and 8 can clear up this issue further. I have never even seen the upper level spellers, so I can only go by what I have heard.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Asenik

[mommaduck]

Well I blacked them all out ;)

 

I do mean hate, yes. I have used several books from different providers with different beliefs and that is not what I am referring to. They say that people would have been better off as "barbarians" or "heathens" (their words, not mine) than Catholic. There are references to the Catholic Church being oppressive and they accuse it of trying to keep people "ignorant". Seriously, especially in the spelling books, like every other chapter talked about how horrible Catholics were. It was out of place and insulting. And I had always respected the Mennonite lifestyle so I was seriously shocked and upset about it. And it was completely unnecessary. It didn't even have anything to do with spelling. It was pure propaganda.

You are correct. One of the groups of Mennonites associated with R&S are cultish and "bigoted" would be a better word than "hate". However, I also used to own one of their upper grammar books (got it when we were thinking about joining the group...it was the only group we had access to at that time). Some of the sentences used as part of the lessons included such as, "Catholics are idolators.", "Calvinists are overconfident in the surety of their salvation.", and "The Jews killed Jesus." It was awful. I kept the book for while with pages marked for "proof" (because of people that wanted it), but decluttered it along with other things (why should I have to keep awful stuff in my home...I know what was in it already).

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I have the seventh grade grammar book but we haven't used it yet. I'm a very fast reader and I'll go through it over the next day or so and report back.

[Colleen in NS]

However, in this case the poster did give additional information. She said to look at levels 7 and 8 of the spelling program. I guess I fail to understand how giving page numbers would help anyone before buying since if they have not purchased yet they do not have the books to begin with, in order to look in them and decide.

 

Many homeschoolers will soon be attending curriculum fairs. They may want to have a look at these spelling books at the fairs, so they can make their own decisions about these claims of anti-Catholic sentiments. Page numbers would enable them to quickly see exactly what ninechoirs is talking about, so they don't waste their time at the fairs. Again, it's standard for people to ask things like this, when others make such heavy duty claims.

[mcconnellboys]

I used it in second grade, along with Emma Serl's grammar text, and the amount of religion in it just about drove me crazy. I just wanted to do grammar; I did not want another Bible curriculum....

 

I had already bought the third grade book, so began with it the next year, and either I'd become immune or it was not as bad as the second grade book because it seemed fine.

 

I used Abeka for fourth through sixth grades, but my dysgraphic son was just not retaining the info, so I thought I'd go back to R&S for seventh and do the lessons orally with him. Oh.My.Goodness. I absolutely detested it and the lesson went on and on and ON, forever! It was like an all day grammar lesson. My son would sigh and give a little groan every time I brought it out. I think it lasted about two weeks and I put it away. I've never, EVER done that with a program before in all my years of homeschooling!

 

Perhaps it would have worked fine for my older son, who is rather a grammarian, but it certainly was not going to work for my younger son with his problems and I could tell it right away! My older son went all the way through Abeka grammar from fourth through ninth grades (then he returned to a private school) and was able to do the majority of it on his own with good understanding. I still really prefer Abeka, but it was too much information for my younger son and he was resistent to me working through it with him, so I switched him to a program that works in smaller bites and stays on the same topic for several days, in most cases, before switching to another topic. There are also short "lessons" that I can go over orally with him for purposes of discussion and reinforcement.

[Colleen in NS]

However, I also used to own one of their upper grammar books (got it when we were thinking about joining the group...it was the only group we had access to at that time). Some of the sentences used as part of the lessons included such as, "Catholics are idolators.", "Calvinists are overconfident in the surety of their salvation.", and "The Jews killed Jesus."

 

(ETA: OK, wait, now we are talking about the grammar books in addition to the 7 and 8 spelling books? I just clued in to that when I reread)

 

Do you remember which grammar book it was? We just finished the grade 7 grammar book today, and I don't ever remember seeing sentences like this in it. These types of sentences would have caught my attention. I have books 8, 9, and 10; and I'd like to have a look in them if you are able to remember which book it was.

 

I'm wondering if you and NineChoirs are talking about older R&S books - maybe they've been revised since you've both seen these offensive sentiments? I've bought all my R&S grammar and math books, brand new, in the past five years. Maybe they've been sanitized?

 

:bigear:

Edited June 8, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[mommaduck]

(ETA: OK, wait, now we are talking about the grammar books in addition to the 7 and 8 spelling books? I just clued in to that when I reread)

 

Do you remember which grammar book it was? We just finished the grade 7 grammar book today, and I don't ever remember seeing sentences like this in it. These types of sentences would have caught my attention. I have books 8, 9, and 10; and I'd like to have a look in them if you are able to remember which book it was.

 

I'm wondering if you and NineChoirs are talking about older R&S books - maybe they've been revised since you've both seen these offensive sentiments? I've bought all my R&S grammar and math books, brand new, in the past five years. Maybe they've been sanitized?

 

:bigear:

It was an older one and I still had it 7yrs ago, but acquired it 12 or 13yrs ago (wow, it doesn't seem like it was THAT long ago!). So they may have sanitized it. But the attitude was still a turn off and the group we were with we discovered were sectarian (aka, all other mennonites were going to hell plus those that were not mennonite) and they weren't a small group (but they don't have a great reputation in Lancaster County with other Mennonites).

Edited June 8, 2011 by mommaduck

[Colleen in NS]

It was an older one and I still had it 7yrs ago, but acquired it 12 or 13yrs ago (wow, it doesn't seem like it was THAT long ago!). So they may have sanitized it.

 

NineChoirs, would you be able to remember and willing to tell us approximately when your blacked-out grade 7 and 8 spelling books were published? Or when you acquired them? That might be helpful info. for us to have, even if you can't get access to your books for page numbers. (not trying to pressure you - if you are able to provide any of this info., it would immensely help us in evaluating R&S products. Thanks!)

[TheAutumnOak]

I'm wondering if you and NineChoirs are talking about older R&S books - maybe they've been revised since you've both seen these offensive sentiments? I've bought all my R&S grammar and math books, brand new, in the past five years. Maybe they've been sanitized?

 

:bigear:

 

I am thinking that this may be the case...

Edited June 8, 2011 by TheAutumnOak
Missed a bracket on the quote :-)

[Guest]

Many homeschoolers will soon be attending curriculum fairs. They may want to have a look at these spelling books at the fairs, so they can make their own decisions about these claims of anti-Catholic sentiments. Page numbers would enable them to quickly see exactly what ninechoirs is talking about, so they don't waste their time at the fairs. Again, it's standard for people to ask things like this, when others make such heavy duty claims.

 

Colleen, like I said before, I completely understand where you were coming from. However, Ninechoirs has been pressured quite a bit in this thread and I felt that she needed some moral support.

 

In my case I had reservations about the program given the heavy religious content to begin with. It was outside my comfort zone to even consider it. NineChoirs comments just made me realize that I did not need this. I stand by my comments that topics like this, regardless of context, should not be included in a spelling program (as far as I am concerned), or a grammar program. I understand that people on here want to know specifics but the pressure put on NineChoirs from several directions was strong enough to drive her away from the thread. Personally, her posts and reaction felt sincere to me and this was why I posted in her defense when I did.

 

As for the books being sanitized, if this is the case, then I am glad NineChoirs posted when she did. If these are the sentiments of the publishers of Rod and Staff and they have just toned them down to sell their curriculum then this is definitely a curriculum I could do without. My 2¢ anyway!

Edited June 8, 2011 by Guest

[mama27]

But you are basing your opinion on someone else's heresay, and you are assuming it's factual.

If you don't want a spelling curric with any religious content at all, then obviously you should stay away from a Mennonite company but for them to be accused of HATING Catholics, that's very strong wording without anything to back it up. She bowed out when she was asked simple questions.

 

 

 

Colleen, like I said before, I completely understand where you were coming from. However, Ninechoirs has been pressured quite a bit in this thread and I felt that she needed some moral support.

 

In my case I had reservations about the program given the heavy religious content to begin with. It was outside my comfort zone to even consider it. NineChoirs comments just made me realize that I did not need this. I stand by my comments that topics like this, regardless of context, should not be included in a spelling program (as far as I am concerned), or a grammar program. I understand that people on here want to know specifics but the pressure put on NineChoirs from several directions was strong enough to drive her away from the thread. Personally, her posts and reaction felt sincere to me and this was why I posted in her defense when I did.

 

As for the books being sanitized, if this is the case, then I am glad NineChoirs posted when she did. If these are the sentiments of the publishers of Rod and Staff and they have just toned them down to sell their curriculum then this is definitely a curriculum I could do without. My 2¢ anyway!

[TracyP]

.

As for the books being sanitized, if this is the case, then I am glad NineChoirs posted when she did. If these are the sentiments of the publishers of Rod and Staff and they have just toned them down to sell their curriculum then this is definitely a curriculum I could do without. My 2¢ anyway!

 

:iagree: However, I see no reason for this kind of accusation. I (sadly) had a very different view of Catholics just two short years ago. I have seen where I was wrong and am now exploring RC/EO in a whole new way thanks to these boards. I think it is best not assume the worst of our fellow Christians.