I need input on a PS incident with DS9.

[Whisperlily]

At this time we have DS9 in PS.

 

This is longer than I had intended, sorry!

 

He and a girl in his class were being silly together, playing with pencils. I have no idea what was going through their heads, but they were poking each other, and thought it was great fun, laughing, etc. Unfortunately, DS's pencil scratched the girl's skin at one point.

 

Both kids told the teacher that it was mutual fun, there was no anger, but they'd gotten carried away. There were no witnesses. According to the teacher, DS9 was very upset that he'd possibly hurt her, and apologized on the spot, asking her if she was okay, etc. She assessed the situation, made sure there wasn't a problem and moved on.

 

It wasn't until 2 days later (yesterday) that the assistant principal called me, with DS in his office, and said the girl's parents were upset. Now the girl admits they were playing around, but denies that she was also poking DS. Because there were no witnesses and my DS admits to poking the girl, he feels forced to impose a day of In-School-Suspension because of this incident. He was apologetic, and told me he didn't really want to do it, seeing as there were no witnesses, but he had to do something because of the other parents' reaction.

 

I told him I would abide by his decision, if he felt it was necessary. I do agree that DS needs to learn to keep his hands to himself, and that playing around with the pencils was a bad idea. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that it is going to cause some self-esteem issues for DS. He really is a "black and white" kind of child, and following the rules is very important to him. He tends to be very hard on himself when he makes a mistake, and he has a lot of negative self-talk when he is impulsive and he has been very depressed ever since his visit to the office. He is also likely going to miss the end of the year field trip/rewards day, as one requirement for participation is "no behavior incidents."

 

We told DS that we are not angry with him, but that what happened is a serious thing. We understand that he wasn't being aggressive, but that we are responsible for our actions, and the consequences are meant to help him make a better choice next time. We also told him that we will not mention this to his siblings, or anyone else. We agreed that he should complete the ISS, with the understanding that this incident is a warning about how serious things can be if he doesn't keep his hands to himself. We also told him that if there were ever a second incident, it would not be handled so quietly, and there would be additional consequences imposed at home.

 

But what message is it sending to our son about the girl's participation? That it's okay unless someone gets hurt? It could have easily been *her* pencil that scratched *his* skin. What does it tell him about denying what happened? Since she denies that she poked DS, she's not being held accountable for her part in the situation.

 

It's not that I want her to face consequences for the silliness, (I think they both should have been counseled and warned)... but I don't want my DS to learn the wrong lesson here. He has never had so much as a reprimand for his behavior at school. In fact he has consistently recieved awards for good behavior, and his teachers regularly tell me what a great student he is.

 

What would you do?

[JudoMom]

At this time we have DS9 in PS.

 

This is longer than I had intended, sorry!

 

He and a girl in his class were being silly together, playing with pencils. I have no idea what was going through their heads, but they were poking each other, and thought it was great fun, laughing, etc. Unfortunately, DS's pencil scratched the girl's skin at one point.

 

Both kids told the teacher that it was mutual fun, there was no anger, but they'd gotten carried away. There were no witnesses. According to the teacher, DS9 was very upset that he'd possibly hurt her, and apologized on the spot, asking her if she was okay, etc. She assessed the situation, made sure there wasn't a problem and moved on.

 

It wasn't until 2 days later (yesterday) that the assistant principal called me, with DS in his office, and said the girl's parents were upset. Now the girl admits they were playing around, but denies that she was also poking DS. Because there were no witnesses and my DS admits to poking the girl, he feels forced to impose a day of In-School-Suspension because of this incident. He was apologetic, and told me he didn't really want to do it, seeing as there were no witnesses, but he had to do something because of the other parents' reaction.

 

I told him I would abide by his decision, if he felt it was necessary. I do agree that DS needs to learn to keep his hands to himself, and that playing around with the pencils was a bad idea. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that it is going to cause some self-esteem issues for DS. He really is a "black and white" kind of child, and following the rules is very important to him. He tends to be very hard on himself when he makes a mistake, and he has a lot of negative self-talk when he is impulsive and he has been very depressed ever since his visit to the office. He is also likely going to miss the end of the year field trip/rewards day, as one requirement for participation is "no behavior incidents."

 

We told DS that we are not angry with him, but that what happened is a serious thing. We understand that he wasn't being aggressive, but that we are responsible for our actions, and the consequences are meant to help him make a better choice next time. We also told him that we will not mention this to his siblings, or anyone else. We agreed that he should complete the ISS, with the understanding that this incident is a warning about how serious things can be if he doesn't keep his hands to himself. We also told him that if there were ever a second incident, it would not be handled so quietly, and there would be additional consequences imposed at home.

 

But what message is it sending to our son about the girl's participation? That it's okay unless someone gets hurt? It could have easily been *her* pencil that scratched *his* skin. What does it tell him about denying what happened? Since she denies that she poked DS, she's not being held accountable for her part in the situation.

 

It's not that I want her to face consequences for the silliness, (I think they both should have been counseled and warned)... but I don't want my DS to learn the wrong lesson here. He has never had so much as a reprimand for his behavior at school. In fact he has consistently recieved awards for good behavior, and his teachers regularly tell me what a great student he is.

 

What would you do?

 

My first thought is to praise him for his honesty. He could've lied as easily as the girl is. The lesson I see is that we always need to be honest, even when the consequences hurt. That while the girl should be punished as well, she will most likely suffer much more in the future if she doesn't learn to always tell the truth. That's a far worse consequence in the long run than a day of ISS.

 

Hoping this makes sense, and hugs to your ds.

[Tracey in TX]

Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

Time to stand up and demand fair treatment for DS. If he gets reprimanded, then child#2 should have equal punishment. What lesson is the principal attempting to teach the boys? In school suspension is a fair penalty IF both children participate. Otherwise, neither boy should be subjected. Let's be serious, the other parents are upset, but are punishing your child for their child's childish behavior as well. Let boys be boys--either get hurt and learn a lesson or forgive and forget. This type of issue really grates my nerves--it's SO unfair to your child.

 

Please INSIST that DS be treated equally to the other child. Hugs to you both!

[FlockOfSillies]

I'd be telling my boy that God saw what happened, and He keeps track of such things. It's not at all unusual for the "bad guy" to win in the short term, even if he gets it in the end. (And this is especially true in our current climate of "zero tolerance" in the schools.)

 

While it's obvious the AP is a weenie (shouldn't he be doubting the person whose story keeps changing, or at least doing a little more homework on the situation?), I don't see any benefit in mimicking the other parents' manufactured indignance and hysteria. On the contrary, I think that will teach your boy exactly the wrong lesson. You've already told the AP that you'd abide by the decision; maintain your credibility and stick to that. From a strictly political standpoint, it may serve you very well in the future to be seen as the "reasonable one" now. Save your "loaded for bear" mode for when it's obvious your boy is completely innocent.

 

Overall, I think you handled it just fine. Hopefully his depression over this incident will cause him to be more self-controlled next time. You may just need to have a series of smaller talks with him as time goes by, and as you see him trying to deal with what happened.

 

I wouldn't tell my son to stop being friends with this girl, but he should certainly be wary of her from now on, and if she asks him why, he can simply tell her, "I can't trust you anymore. You don't seem to be very honest."

[FlockOfSillies]

:confused1:

[WTMindy]

Good golly!!! Do they really not have better things to do with their time? They both agreed they were playing around. Give them a warning and tell them not to do it again! But a suspension?!?!?! That is ridiculous!!!!!! I would not be quite so polite to the principal. That is a total overreaction, in my nsh opinion.

[RoughCollie]

I agree with Mindy.

 

The AP's decision was based not on the situation, but on the pressure he had received from the girl's parents. What is wrong with that guy?!

 

I'd jump on that AP so fast it would make his head spin. This is not a situation which requires suspension, no matter what the girl's parents think, and it is harmful to your DS.

[Lakeside]

Even though there may not have been any witnesses, they both admitted to the teacher that they were being silly and got carried away. Shouldn't the teacher be speaking up to the principal?

 

It certainly makes it hard to teach children to be honest when they see others getting away with being dishonest.

[Puma Mom]

It sounds like the AP hasn't done his homework on this one. Has he spoken to the teacher, who was told by the girl that it was mutual silliness? I would suggest to the AP that ds write an apology to the girl and her parents. If "he has to do something because of the other parents' reaction", that's really all that is warranted.

 

It is a very good lesson for him to learn--that silliness can go bad, that people can lie, that you don't get to pick the punishment for the bad choices you make. But I would do my best to make sure that he is not sacrificed because it's the easiest thing to for the AP to do.

[FloridaLisa]

Even though there may not have been any witnesses, they both admitted to the teacher that they were being silly and got carried away. Shouldn't the teacher be speaking up to the principal?

 

 

 

I agree.

 

Number 1) I'd ask the teacher myself what the girl admitted/said (before)

 

Number 2) I'd ask the assistant principal to verify details from the teacher. T

 

Then, knowing that

 

Number 3) it's the *action* that triggers the punishment, not the *consequences*, I'd make sure that if both were poking pencils, then an equal punishment was handed down.

 

Having said all of this, the punishment seems waaaayy over the top for the action involved (unless there are some other extenuating circumstances or history to this situation or the kids involved). It's always eye-opening to see the pendulum swing back and forth in the public schools.

 

Lisa

[Kathy in MD]

At this time we have DS9 in PS.

 

This is longer than I had intended, sorry!

 

He and a girl in his class were being silly together, playing with pencils. I have no idea what was going through their heads, but they were poking each other, and thought it was great fun, laughing, etc. Unfortunately, DS's pencil scratched the girl's skin at one point.

 

Both kids told the teacher that it was mutual fun, there was no anger, but they'd gotten carried away. There were no witnesses. According to the teacher, DS9 was very upset that he'd possibly hurt her, and apologized on the spot, asking her if she was okay, etc. She assessed the situation, made sure there wasn't a problem and moved on.

 

It wasn't until 2 days later (yesterday) that the assistant principal called me, with DS in his office, and said the girl's parents were upset. Now the girl admits they were playing around, but denies that she was also poking DS. Because there were no witnesses and my DS admits to poking the girl, he feels forced to impose a day of In-School-Suspension because of this incident. He was apologetic, and told me he didn't really want to do it, seeing as there were no witnesses, but he had to do something because of the other parents' reaction.

 

I told him I would abide by his decision, if he felt it was necessary. I do agree that DS needs to learn to keep his hands to himself, and that playing around with the pencils was a bad idea. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that it is going to cause some self-esteem issues for DS. He really is a "black and white" kind of child, and following the rules is very important to him. He tends to be very hard on himself when he makes a mistake, and he has a lot of negative self-talk when he is impulsive and he has been very depressed ever since his visit to the office. He is also likely going to miss the end of the year field trip/rewards day, as one requirement for participation is "no behavior incidents."

 

We told DS that we are not angry with him, but that what happened is a serious thing. We understand that he wasn't being aggressive, but that we are responsible for our actions, and the consequences are meant to help him make a better choice next time. We also told him that we will not mention this to his siblings, or anyone else. We agreed that he should complete the ISS, with the understanding that this incident is a warning about how serious things can be if he doesn't keep his hands to himself. We also told him that if there were ever a second incident, it would not be handled so quietly, and there would be additional consequences imposed at home.

 

But what message is it sending to our son about the girl's participation? That it's okay unless someone gets hurt? It could have easily been *her* pencil that scratched *his* skin. What does it tell him about denying what happened? Since she denies that she poked DS, she's not being held accountable for her part in the situation.

 

It's not that I want her to face consequences for the silliness, (I think they both should have been counseled and warned)... but I don't want my DS to learn the wrong lesson here. He has never had so much as a reprimand for his behavior at school. In fact he has consistently recieved awards for good behavior, and his teachers regularly tell me what a great student he is.

 

What would you do?

 

I can just visualize the scene at the girl's home. Her mom sees the scratch and asks what happens. The girl innocently says, "Oh, ______ scratched me with a pencil" and HER mother immediately goes into momma bear mode. Now the girl's afraid to admit she was doing it also. And momma bear goes storming into the AP's office demanding that the nasty, vicious boy (not really, but that's what she's thinking) be punished for hurting her sweet little girl.

 

Unfortunately this comes under the category that life's not fair. As a boy and eventually a man, your ds will always need to be more careful because he will eventually be bigger and stronger. Even if he's not, it will be automatically assumed that he is because of stereotyping. I'd just tell him for now that even though he didn't mean to, it was his pencil that hurt the girl. I would tell him that I felt that he did take the proper actions and I might even tell him that I thought the girl's parents over-reacted, but that those things happen.

 

BTW, I've personally run into this problem in high school because I was so big. Every time a smaller (and they were all a lot smaller than me) girl got hurt, all the girls blamed me because I was so large and awkward. Even the PE teacher would call me down in class for being so rough playing football. But what did she expect when when I dwarfed the others and we were playing football?That's life.

[Aubrey]

I agree.

 

Number 1) I'd ask the teacher myself what the girl admitted/said (before)

 

Number 2) I'd ask the assistant principal to verify details from the teacher. T

 

Then, knowing that

 

Number 3) it's the *action* that triggers the punishment, not the *consequences*, I'd make sure that if both were poking pencils, then an equal punishment was handed down.

 

Having said all of this, the punishment seems waaaayy over the top for the action involved (unless there are some other extenuating circumstances or history to this situation or the kids involved). It's always eye-opening to see the pendulum swing back and forth in the public schools.

 

Lisa

 

:iagree:

 

And I'll bet when put that way, the girl's parents back down. :glare:

[kalanamak]

I would tell my son that she probably changed her story due to her mother going into Mama Bear mode, and it isn't fair, but unfair things do happen, and now he knows how important it is to not only not do wrong, but to not give the appearance of doing wrong (i.e. you feel threatened during a drug deal, you cannot call the police to help you out).

 

Then I would let it drop, drop, drop. Not carry on about it, not get bent out of shape about girl, girl's parents, what son did, what AP did. I am really grateful for the underreaction of my parents over the things that seem to make many parents these days go Parent Bear. And also that my wrong doings were allowed to fade into the sunset.

 

HTH

[Doran]

These kids are nine, for Pete's sake! They were not waving switch blades at each other. I think the AP completely overreacted based on pressure from the girls' parents. But, if he's going to punish one kid in that way, he needs to punish both. Even if it might seem more righteous to just counsel my son in the subject of life's general unfairness, I'd first be giving him a lesson in standing up for what's right. I'd definitely be having a conversation with the teacher -- who was quite close to a witness and does have important information to impart here -- and possibly with the parents of the girl, if that was an option. None of this would be done with malice but simply as a means to get all the facts out to to those who are in the position of doling out punishment. And, I'd be speaking my piece with the AP, despite the fact that I had initially agreed to abide by his decision as it was laid out.

 

Years ago, my brother was accused of damaging a teacher's car. He did not do it -- indeed, could not have because he was elsewhere the night of the alleged crime. My parents came to his defense as his alibi for that night. Years ago, a teacher thought I was cheating on a biology test. He ranked the paper out from under me and penned a big, fat red "0" on the test, not allowing me to complete the test. It was horrifying. My parents came to my defense and had some stern conversation with that teacher who allowed me to take the test another time.

 

Years later, both my brother and I have grown up to become people who can speak up for ourselves when the situation warrants. I think that's as important a lesson as the one of learning that the good guy will win out eventually.

 

I'm sorry for your son. It sounds like you're doing a great job of supporting him through this, but I think you've got one more step or two in the process. The same truths you've been telling him still apply if your conversations with the teacher/AP/other parents get you nowhere - and you can forwarn him of that possibility -- but perhaps a couple of pointed conversations on your part will give this thing a little more balanced end.

[melissel]

Even though there may not have been any witnesses, they both admitted to the teacher that they were being silly and got carried away. Shouldn't the teacher be speaking up to the principal?

 

It certainly makes it hard to teach children to be honest when they see others getting away with being dishonest.

 

This was my first thought too! I think I'd be going back to the AP and saying I'd thought more about it and was no longer comfortable with the decision.

[Night Elf]

I would normally agree to letting it drop. However, in this case, the unfair punishment is having far reaching consequences. Not only will this boy get an ISS and it goes on his "permanent record", but he misses out on the end of year field trip?? Um, no. I would not allow that to happen. I'd go back to the AP and insist that the only reason her child is getting punished is because the girl is lying. If she admitted to the teacher on the day it happened that she was doing it as well, then that's evidence that she was lying to her parents. If the girl's parents can make a big stink and insist the boy be disciplined for the scratch, then I think it's only fair for the boy's parents to insist the girl be disciplined for obvious lying. She told two different stories so she is definitely lying about something. The girl should not only get ISS as well, but she should miss out on the field trip too.

 

I love the lesson this girl is learning. Hey, if I lie, I can get out of trouble and if someone else gets into trouble instead, that takes the focus off me.

 

Nope, I'd go right back into the school and talk to the AP.

[Laura K (NC)]

he should certainly be wary of her from now on, and if she asks him why, he can simply tell her, "I can't trust you anymore. You don't seem to be very honest."

 

That's a logical consequence for her actions, if nothing else. Some girls learn early that they have a certain power over boys. It's best to nip this kind of thing in the bud if possible. Nice boys, unfortunately, will get the shaft from time to time.

 

It's a sad thing when a child has to realize that life isn't fair, and I'm sorry that the OP's son has come to learn it. I think I'd talk to the teacher, but I wouldn't expect much. Public schools tend to favor the female, the younger, the weaker, and the minority. A boy won't have much of a chance at equal treatment.:rant:

[Whisperlily]

Thank you, everyone, for your replies.

 

I read everything over and over again, and tossed it around in my mind. It is a tough situation all around. My DS9 *does* have a problem with keeping his hands to himself at home. It's an ongoing issue here, but he's *never* had a problem at school.

 

We did decide to abide by the school's "punishment" even though it seemed a bit harsh. We didn't let DS know we felt conflicted about the situation, but we did offer him a lot of support and encouragement.

 

Yesterday, when it was time to report to the In-School-Suspension room, DH went with DS. After walking him to the room, DH pulled the teacher for that room aside, and shared the situation a little bit. She was very encouraging and supportive toward DS. He then went and talked the situation over with the AP. (without DS's knowlege.) We got a little more of the picture, and learned that while the girl was involved, DS admitted that she had asked him to stop poking her, and it was his "just one more" that caused the scratch.

 

It's unfortunate that it couldn't have been handled differently, but in the end, I think DS did learn how serious it can become if he doesn't keep his hands to himself. The AP was always encouraging toward DS, and did praise him for his honesty. The record of his ISS will *not* follow him beyond this school year, it will be shredded.

 

Ironically, DS came home from school yesterday at peace. I think he felt relief at doing the right thing, and having the situation resolved. He also said that it was much easier to do his work, and when he completed it early, he was allowed to do some academic crossword puzzles. (He has ADHD and struggles academically, so I think it was good for him to have a quiet work environment, and no distractions to get him off track).

 

I think, all around, it turned out well. I'm glad we didn't let our hesitation and conflicted feelings about the appropriateness of the punishment show, or it might have undermined the overall positive effect it seems to have had.

 

I will be saving my Mama Bear response for a time when DS is clearly innocent, or is in a situation that is more than an example of how life isn't always fair.

 

Thanks again, ALL of your responses helped me think this through. Isn't the hive mind great?

[WTMindy]

Thank you, everyone, for your replies.

 

I read everything over and over again, and tossed it around in my mind. It is a tough situation all around. My DS9 *does* have a problem with keeping his hands to himself at home. It's an ongoing issue here, but he's *never* had a problem at school.

 

We did decide to abide by the school's "punishment" even though it seemed a bit harsh. We didn't let DS know we felt conflicted about the situation, but we did offer him a lot of support and encouragement.

 

Yesterday, when it was time to report to the In-School-Suspension room, DH went with DS. After walking him to the room, DH pulled the teacher for that room aside, and shared the situation a little bit. She was very encouraging and supportive toward DS. He then went and talked the situation over with the AP. (without DS's knowlege.) We got a little more of the picture, and learned that while the girl was involved, DS admitted that she had asked him to stop poking her, and it was his "just one more" that caused the scratch.

 

It's unfortunate that it couldn't have been handled differently, but in the end, I think DS did learn how serious it can become if he doesn't keep his hands to himself. The AP was always encouraging toward DS, and did praise him for his honesty. The record of his ISS will *not* follow him beyond this school year, it will be shredded.

 

Ironically, DS came home from school yesterday at peace. I think he felt relief at doing the right thing, and having the situation resolved. He also said that it was much easier to do his work, and when he completed it early, he was allowed to do some academic crossword puzzles. (He has ADHD and struggles academically, so I think it was good for him to have a quiet work environment, and no distractions to get him off track).

 

I think, all around, it turned out well. I'm glad we didn't let our hesitation and conflicted feelings about the appropriateness of the punishment show, or it might have undermined the overall positive effect it seems to have had.

 

I will be saving my Mama Bear response for a time when DS is clearly innocent, or is in a situation that is more than an example of how life isn't always fair.

 

Thanks again, ALL of your responses helped me think this through. Isn't the hive mind great?

 

Sounds like you handled it wonderfully!

[Mom2GirlsTX]

Thanks for filling us on what happened at the end. Sounds like you and dh handled it very well indeed!

[readwithem]

I can't rep you again so I'll just say

:iagree:

[Doran]

Thank you, everyone, for your replies...

 

I will be saving my Mama Bear response for a time when DS is clearly innocent, or is in a situation that is more than an example of how life isn't always fair.

 

Thanks again, ALL of your responses helped me think this through. Isn't the hive mind great?

 

 

Sounds like you handled it with a very level head and an eye towards what might best help your son. Good for you. Mama knows best! :001_smile:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I haven't read any of the other replies, so my reaction may be way out of the stream. I also have a couple boys this age. They tend to be quite naive that the world is going to be fair to them and that they can take people at face value. I think that when other people are dishonest or unreliable, they tend to be shocked.

However, many people are dishonest and unreliable. They will bend the truth to advantage and protect themselves. Some will even go out of their way to hurt other people just because it amuses them to do so. As teens and adults, they are also going to encounter women who will lie or place blame as soon as a negative consequence rears its head.

It sounds like your son is meeting up with this bit of life head on. If I were dealing with my own boys, I would probably explain that the ISS is the consequence of their fooling around carelessly. But I would also point out that the friend lied to get out of negative consequences. I would be blunter with my 10 yo than my 8 yo because the 8 yo is also a sensitive soul. But I think in the long run, he might be served better by leaning that others don't always have his best interests in mind than by protecting him by glossing over how unfair this situation is.

You mentioned that you don't want him to learn the wrong lesson. I'll guess that you mean you don't want him to learn to lie to stay out of trouble. So I'd ask him how he feels knowing that the girl is lying about what happened. I'd point out that he'll probably always have a bit of distrust for her now. So she has stayed out of trouble with the parents and the school, but at the loss of her reputation. I'd try to take how he's feeling and use it to reenforce that lying isn't worth it.

 

On the other hand, how badly was the girl scratched? I dont' know that I'd even notice most little marks on my boys. It does make me wonder how rough the play had been. I also have to work with my boys to teach them that they can easily go overboard and beyond what their playmates are enjoying. And that this roughness can cost them friendships too.