Garga Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 He constantly confuses 13 with 31, or 42 with 24, or 20 with 12. He will be six in 2 weeks. Is this a developmental thing? I'm using Math U See primer and we're at a point where I can't really go further until he can solidly recognize numbers. My older son is a whiz at stuff like this, so I'm a little surprised that my (just about) 6 yo has been struggling for so long. We've stopped all other math and have been working on only number recognition for 3 weeks now with no progress. Is this normal and should I just wait this out? Is there a trick that other people use to help kids not get confused? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 There are many parents here who could help you get an idea if this is something like dyslexia or other processing or vision issue. That should be ruled out I think. Assuming there are no learning impairments. Are you using the MUS (or some other) from of "math names" (vs English names for numbers)? So the child tells you value of each place, rather than the English name. Is the MUS way 2-T (or Tens) 1 for 21? We used 2-Tens 1-Unit. Does he get it correct if you ask how many Tens and how many Units (or Ones) there are in a number like 21? See if this helps. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 Thank you, Bill. Yes, the MUS way is to say 2-T. MUS also has you draw a little street with houses for everyone to live in. The units live on the end, with the T's next door and the Hundreds next to the Ts. I hadn't really thought about dyslexia or something, because he's doing fine reading--right at age level (not above and not behind.) Can someone be dyslexic with numbers and not letters, I wonder? (It might have a different name...) I'll have to look into that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siloam Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Thank you, Bill. Yes, the MUS way is to say 2-T. MUS also has you draw a little street with houses for everyone to live in. The units live on the end, with the T's next door and the Hundreds next to the Ts. I hadn't really thought about dyslexia or something, because he's doing fine reading--right at age level (not above and not behind.) Can someone be dyslexic with numbers and not letters, I wonder? (It might have a different name...) I'll have to look into that. Google dyscalculic, dyslexia of numbers. If he isn't have problems with letters as well I wouldn't think it is a vision thing. With either dyslexia or dyscalculia the brain just isn't retrieving information correctly, or storing it correctly. The child has to over lean it to the point they almost don't have to think to remember it, KWIM? The answer becomes automatic. I would try making some sand letter cards, like these I made here. I used glue to write the letters and then covered them in sand. You could probably also just use puff paint. The point is to make it multi-sensory. The brain stores each sense in a different part of the brain. Then if you have one pathway in the brain blocked you still have another you might be able to use to access the information. I would also recommend just writing letters while saying their names in a box of sand or salt. Here is list of all sorts of multi-sensory methods you can use. IF you are dealing with dyscalculia, it is likely to take a while, even a year for it to fall into place. Just practice daily and he will get there. Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankcassiesmom Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 It's pretty normal really. I would just keep working on it. When my son would do it I would stop and make him answer place value questions. Which number is in the tens place? 2? Well then it can't be FORTY 2 right because TY means ten right? So there's 2 tens. (I don't do that 2T business though. I still use twenty.) How many in the ones place? 4? Okay so Twenty-Four. You got it! Lather, rinse, repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Glad to know I'm not alone. My ds is doing the exact same thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowfall Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I think it's normal at that age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) 59. Write down 6 one-digit numbers. Increase each number by 10. Write down your answers. 60. 10 + 7 = 17 10 + 2 = 10 + 9 = 13 + 1 = 17 = 10 + 7 = 10 + 2 = 10 + 9 = 13 + 1 A couple math problems that DS worked just this morning seem to fit thread. I do think this is one of those things where the 'why' is easier than the 'how' and as Spy car is hinting that the English number names do not make clear the place value connection, and special effort here will pay off later. The equations in 60. Did not display like I wanted there's four sets saying the same thing just changing left or right sides of them. Edited March 11, 2011 by Ray Awkward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Thank you, Bill. Yes, the MUS way is to say 2-T. MUS also has you draw a little street with houses for everyone to live in. The units live on the end, with the T's next door and the Hundreds next to the Ts. So do you use the MUS way when you discuss numbers, or is he saying twenty-one (and/or) getting it confused with twelve? We were speaking about this in another thread this week. Twenty-one and Twelve are really irregular names. English, weird language! Try walking through some numbers, ask how many Tens, how many Units (or Ones if that is what you are used to). Then follow-up with the MUS name 2-T 1. And then follow up with the English name. And do that over and over. And listen to people like Heather who can hopefully help you rule out any processing issues. I am no help here, but there are many smart ladies with a great deal of experience who can help you make sure it isn't something other than a normal developmental step. Many children have this issue, it is very (very) common and is the reason people like Demme advocate the "math names." Try a layer approach to the names and see if it helps. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 A couple math problems that DS worked just this morning seem to fit thread. I do think this is one of those things where the 'why' is easier than the 'how' and as Spy car is hinting that the English number names do not make clear the place value connection, and special effort here will pay off later. Yes, exactly right. It is the place value connection that needs the attention. That connection is often lost in a semantic confusion when dealing with "English names." You said it better than I Ray. Good ideas too, although the format of 60 did make me go "huh?" at first :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CarolineUK Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 DS6 has struggled with the same issue. He is most likely dyslexic although we haven't had a formal diagnosis - DH is severely dyslexic and DS11 is also dyslexic. He has struggled terribly with reading and has issues of coordination and sequencing that many dyslexics have. We're doing RightStart B math and two digit (and more) numbers come up a lot, so it's something we battle with on a regular basis (and I'm very ashamed to say I have had a tantrum or two over it). Slowly, very slowly, he's beginning to get it, most of the time. RightStart does approach two digit numbers from a variety of angles - abacus, place value cards, addition problems, etc, which I think helps. I know with reading regular, consistent hard work has paid off, as Heather says he has had to overlearn letter sounds, blends, words, etc until they're completely automatic. It does feel a little the same with two digit numbers. I do think it may be partly developmental, so fairly normal for this age, but if there is more to it than that I'm afraid all I can recommend is tons of patience and hard work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 That sounds pretty normal to me. My 7 year old did that for awhile and now he doesn't anymore. He did it longer with the teens than any of the other numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) <sniped> You said it better than I Ray. Good ideas too, although the format of 60 did make me go "huh?" at first :D Bill haha, my electronic is even worse than my phonic :001_smile: See attachment for digit-value-recognizer device; staples + cardstock + Sharpie. Use by sliding the number(digits) strips up or down between the thicker card-stock that has the window cut out. Edited March 11, 2011 by Ray Adding two pictures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 haha, my electronic is even worse than my phonic :001_smile: Take it as a measure of respect that I did try to work though the reasoning ;) :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 See attachment for digit-value-recognizer device; staples + cardstock + Sharpie. Use by sliding the number(digits) strips up or down between the thicker card-stock that has the window cut out. I love it!!! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Hey Ray, are those the Russian math books translated by U of Chicago in the background? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Hey Ray, are those the Russian math books translated by U of Chicago in the background? Bill Affirm, and that manipulative was inspired by a drawing from it.(rm grade 1). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Affirm, and that manipulative was inspired by a drawing from it.(rm grade 1). I have been so intrigued by those materials for a long time. It has taken great restraint not to order them (as the math plate is full), but still....:D Any thoughts (hijack apology) on these? Are you still using Japanese Math as well? Is the "level" roughly comparable to Singapore or MEP in terms of grade level? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 My second daughter has always had trouble with reversing (numbers, letters, words, multiletter phonograms). I taught her to write in cursive thinking it would help. Imagine my chagrin when I saw her mirror-write in cursive without (her) realizing it. Anyway, she's mostly stopped reversing digits and letters when she writes them, but she still sometimes mistakes b/d or "reads" a word starting on the right side (like trying to sound out "book" as "koob"). This also sometimes shows up in her math when she mistakes (for example) 15 for 51 when writing an answer on a math problem. 7+8 = 51. When I point out that something less than 10 plus something less than 10 cannot be as big as 51, she realizes what she did. Like her mom, though, she's not big on seeing if her answer is "realistic" and she's not a detail person with anything other than her drawing. Advice? Just keep reinforcing & correcting (gently) as long as he knows the concept of place value. If he is still doing it (often) at 7 after all your work, you might want to look into it further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 Thank you everyone! I love the hive mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganClassicalPrep Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 DD was having a hard time recognizing two digit numbers also... and then came up with her own strange way to learn them. Speed limit and interstate signs. For the longest time she repeated the digits (such as five-five) and I would say back to her fifty-five. Now she's just saying the numbers on her own. (And when we are working on double digit numbers, she recognizes certain ones much quicker- 13, 25, 35, 45, 50, 55... the speed limits and name of the streets we drive on most! :tongue_smilie:) Obviously this wouldn't be the best way to learn the numbers, but it may work as a little reinforcing tool. (And as a side-note, she learned her single digit numbers the same way, we'd just separate out the numbers, so two 5s instead of 55.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy in TN Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 My oldest ds is dyslexic. What you are describing is developmental. With the little kids at kumon this is very common. As has been stated, English number names do not give a clue as to place value, but that isn't the whole issue. A teacup is still a teacup if it is turned upside-down. Following that logic, there is really no difference between 12 and 21. At the stage you are describing, children often just have a little bump before they can visually see the difference between numbers even if they say oneTen-two and twoTen-one. Definitely discuss place value, but realize that for many little people it is common to not differentiate reading left-to-right from right-to-left with numbers even if they have already learned to do so with letters. As he is having no problem reading, I may would explain to him that numbers are the same and that you move left-to-right. You could also try running your finger under the number from left-to-right like you would do with a word. Right now, just based on your post, I would say that it is purely development. However, if it continues or if your mommy intuition tells you otherwise, you could have him tested. Children are usually a little older (at least 7) before a psyc/ed eval. HTH- Mandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mammaofbean Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 quite normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicianmom Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 It's normal. How do I know? I made the mistake of trying to run a bingo game for a bunch of kindergartners, using regular bingo cards. I think only about two kids could find their numbers without help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoundAbout Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) How about something simple like really visually breaking each number down into a chart with rows and columns and physical lines between them: tens | ones ___________ Can't create a great looking chart in this editing window, but you can sort of get the idea if you extend the middle line down. It's not going to help with remembering English number names, but might help with not confusing the meaning of say 12 and 21. I have to admit that even though I was always great at math I didn't really understand place value notation until I was introduced to numbers in different bases in 5th grade and taught to build charts like this (though using base^exponents instead of number names) to keep everything straight. Total lightbulb moment for me even though its super simple - just adding some dividing lines and column titles to the number we already write. And yes, before anyone asks, I was in a very unusual math program :) Edited March 12, 2011 by RoundAbout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Shot Academy Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I recommend doing dot to dots that go up to 50 or more. If you point it out does he understand what he did wrong? If not, I would have him build both numbers and figure out which is correct. I also tell my 6 yo how many numbers she wrote backwards on her math sheet, and make her find them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanne in MN Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Oh my! I had forgotten that my boys used to do that, too, at that age! Their older sister never had that problem so it really bothered me, but they grew out of it. They are 12 today and I've already forgotten they did that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderfilled Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 My 6 year old son has a lot of trouble with two digit numbers, too. I got out an abacus lately. I thought I would show him with groups of ten on an abacus how the one in 13 stands for one ten and how the 3 in thirty stands for 3 tens and so on. I started by showing him 11. I asked him to write it for me and told him how to write a one in the tens place for the one group of ten and then a 1 in the ones place for the single bead. I then showed him 15 on the abacus and told him to write it for me. I told him again to write a 1 for the group of ten and then to write a five for the five beads. He had barely finished writing the five when he started rolling on the bed and doing somersaults and hugging me. He kept repeating, "Oh, that's how you do math, that's how you do math". His older brother came in just then and the 6 yo said, "Shh, don't tell him." Sorry to say, though, as others have mentioned, that this doesn't translate into being able to reading numbers correctly. It does help with understanding why we write them like we do. FYI, this is not the first time that place value has been explained to him; just the first time it made such an impression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calandalsmom Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Normal. Normal normal normal. No reason at all to think of dyslexia just based on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 It's normal. How do I know? I made the mistake of trying to run a bingo game for a bunch of kindergartners, using regular bingo cards. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Absolutely hillarious!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLDoll Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 My daughter, 6 next month, does the same thing periodically. We just review - What's in the ten's place? What's in the unit's place? How do we say that number? She also doesn't pay very good attention to plus and minus signs. I think it's developmental. She wants to get through the work, glances at the problem, assumes she knows what's going on and proceeds without really looking carefully at what she's read or written. I don't make a big deal out of it, and I haven't halted curriculum progression. Even though she'll write 21 instead of 12 for 6+6, we just review and move on. It's happening less frequently as time goes by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKlinda Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 He constantly confuses 13 with 31, or 42 with 24, or 20 with 12.] Do dot patterns for letter and number reversals. My students love doing them and they are very effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmama2 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 He constantly confuses 13 with 31, or 42 with 24, or 20 with 12.] Do dot patterns for letter and number reversals. My students love doing them and they are very effective. I'm wondering what you mean by this? Just dots for them to trace or something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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