HollyVanH Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 The NY Times ran an article yesterday documenting recent research on "bullying" among the popular cliques in middle and high schools and I've written a blog post outlining my take on this in the context of homeschooling: http://www.knittedthoughts.com/2011/02/homeschooling-and-socialization.html I'd love to hear what you think of it and what your experiences have been as homeschoolers when it comes to the "socialization" question. Thanks, Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanvan Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 The NY Times ran an article yesterday documenting recent research on "bullying" among the popular cliques in middle and high schools and I've written a blog post outlining my take on this in the context of homeschooling: http://www.knittedthoughts.com/2011/02/homeschooling-and-socialization.html I'd love to hear what you think of it and what your experiences have been as homeschoolers when it comes to the "socialization" question. Thanks, Holly :iagree:Your blog post sums up my feelings very nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I agree that my kids are better off without bullying, but we do actually spend most of our time at home. We do more academics that way. :tongue_smilie: Some anonymous idiot felt the need to leave an asinine comment on your post. :001_rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamturner Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) Wow, what's up with the annonymous poster who posted this in your comment section? Sounds like a bit of jealousy is going on. You just wrote about how you are not hermits hiding out in the house and they post this nonsense. I really wonder if all this nationwide criticism of homeschoolers and their "lack of social" skills is really just these people's fear that their dc will not be the best and brightest in the real world once all is said and done. They can't stand that they might be wrong so they want to put a stop to the "competition." I have to mention though, that we have experienced some bullying in various places, so the school is not the only place bad behavior exists. Also in our neighborhood, my dd has experienced the snooty, fickle/fake behavior from some of the girls. I'm just thankful she doesn't have to deal with that every day all day. My dc have learned from these experiences but it is not shaping their behavior or character. Edited February 15, 2011 by Michelle in TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I thought it was a really interesting article, and I could relate to it. I do think some bullying is jockeying for social position. BTW, are you going to leave that extremely harsh and inappropriate comment on your blog? Geesh. (I mean the one someone "anonymously" left you.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyVanH Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Wasn't that an obnoxious comment? I appreciate your support. It's always so hard to read nasty things like that when I make a post and I certainly wish the net were a bit more civilized when it comes to things like that. I did delete it and I don't usually, but if someone leaves a comment "anonymously" (coward) and begins it by calling me unnecessary names (rude) -- I don't feel obligated to let them have a voice on my blog. I really doubt they even read the whole article. It sounded more like they just had an ax to grind. Thanks again for YOUR support though :) Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyVanH Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Michelle -- I received a far more "thoughtful" comment from a Mom who raised the issue of Homeschool bullying that can sometimes happen and I placed my response in the comments. I basically said, that yes -- certainly it can occur, but there are 2 major differences between school and homeschool bullying. 1st, parents are there to help kids learn to negotiate relationships that are difficult and 2nd, there's always the option to leave if things are untenable. And yes, I deleted the obnoxious comment. I welcome thoughtful criticism, but Anonymous critics that choose to use such rude language are just cowards. I won't give them a voice on my blog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Well said. My oldest dd was bullied in Kindergarten, of all places. I was bullied throughout school-mostly by the popular kids. It's rather ridiculous and I would never put my children through that willingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamturner Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Yes, I read your comments on bullying w/in homeschool situations. Our experience w/bullying hasn't just been in homeschool situations, but things like church, the park, neighborhood kids, etc. I liked your response and it is similar to how we have handled it. Dealing with these issues with families that want to deal with their children's wrong behavior is a huge factor in success in these situations. Traditional schools don't always have parents that are "all on the same page." My thoughts on socializing for homeschoolers is mixed. While I do think we are raising children that can relate to various ages and situations, I think we will still turn out kids that can be vastly different from their ps peers. Some may think that is just fine, mostly us homeschoolers, as we don't want our dc to have many of the undesirable traits that come with traditional schooling/socializing. However, those in more traditional school settings will still think that our hsers are different and thus not properly socialized. Even good intentioned parents who think kids need to navigate through the difficult waters to truly be a "normal" person will think our hsers as _____ (fill in the blank w/whatever adjective might apply). I'd like more research done to determine how hs graduates do in college both academically and socially as I've heard conflicting reports. Also, how have they done once out of college. All the reports I read sounds like they all do very well in careers and community. Ultimately, I think each parent has to decide if they are okay with having a different kid, that doesn't follow the herd. And for me that is okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Reading the article, one thing I wondered is whether the impact of bullying varies depending on social status: is the impact worse for the isolated kid than for the social climber who has higher social status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyVanH Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Michelle and "I love books" both make important points -- homeschoolers do raise kids who are "different" (define it as you will). I do so purposely and certainly I want one of those "differences" to be that they were guided through the more difficult parts of adolescence with parents who assisted them until they were mature enough to handle such things easily on their own. Obviously, homeschooling isn't the only way to do this. Still, it's the way that works best for me. I do though, view this sort of "difference" and many other "differences" as positive. Such differences allow societies to grow and change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalphs Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 The NY Times ran an article yesterday documenting recent research on "bullying" among the popular cliques in middle and high schools and I've written a blog post outlining my take on this in the context of homeschooling: http://www.knittedthoughts.com/2011/02/homeschooling-and-socialization.html I'd love to hear what you think of it and what your experiences have been as homeschoolers when it comes to the "socialization" question. Thanks, Holly Thank you for sharing! :) Could you please share with me what the words are below the word "preps?" Because of the coloring/ink I can't quite make out the words. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 But not all public schooled kids turn out perfectly social when they graduate, either. That is, the ones who aren't beaten down so much they drop out, commit suicide, or change to several different schools because of the extreme tormenting. I know almost nobody IRL who was homeschooled, but tons of weird public schooled kids (like myself :lol: ) My dh is a college professor and can not tell the difference between hs and ps kids as far as social issues. He says the only difference he sees is that the hs kids are more dedicated at studying-just like engineering majors of all backgrounds. That's probably a little anecdotal as it's only been at the three colleges he's taught at, but I have yet to see real studies on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Atl Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 My dh is a college professor and can not tell the difference between hs and ps kids as far as social issues. He says the only difference he sees is that the hs kids are more dedicated at studying-just like engineering majors of all backgrounds. That's probably a little anecdotal as it's only been at the three colleges he's taught at, but I have yet to see real studies on this. I'd agree with this... My oldest was bullied within her homeschool group, so I'm not convinced that it's only in a public/private school settings that this happens. The difference is that the parent is often there to see it, and act. Teachers often are overwhelmed, and just don't have the time or interest in diffusing every incident they witness. I think parenting is the key, no matter where the child is educated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyVanH Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Kalphs -- the graphic was one I found on google and just displays one version of the social pyramid of some high schools. Below Preps are various categories like rock stars, nerds, geeks, artists, druggies, etc. It's another unfortunate part of the school experience that kids are sometimes pigeonholed into groups like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyVanH Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 "Mommymilkies" -- you're right. Certainly not all schooled kids are "normal" either. I taught at USC myself and I agree -- you really can easily tell the difference b/w schooled and homeschooled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamturner Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Can you explain more about what you mean by "different?" I was painfully shy as a child, and although I was not bullied, I didn't fit in with anyone either. I fit in much better in the adult world (and not being so shy anymore helps a lot!) Right now I think my dd4 is "different" from her peers in some ways that I think are good. How would you (or anyone) say that hs are "different?" Just trying to get some information here. One way I hope my dds will be different is that I hope they will skip some of the adolescent junk, like peer dependence, and have more true friendships based on "real" commonalities. Actually, everyone will have their version of what a "normal" teen is supposed to look like or act like. That's kind of what I mean. What is "normal?" Some kids live for their sports or music or whatever they are passionate about. Some for academics. While some may favor pursuing their friends or being what they consider cool. If our homeschooled students don't fit the mold of the person assessing them, then I guess they may decide that they are not "socialized." It will be like a generic label that is given to homeschoolers because it seems to be the buzz word for "different." At least in some cases. These are some ideas that come to mind when I try to figure this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forget-Me-Not Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 You've managed to sum up my feelings much more eloquently than I have been able to :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5KidzRUs Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I'd like more research done to determine how hs graduates do in college both academically and socially as I've heard conflicting reports. My oldest was homeschooled and has been in the military for six years. He has been promoted on track and consistently placed in leadership positions. He likens his co-workers to younger siblings at times and as the oldest of five he is used to mentoring. My middle two are 18 (soon to be 19) and 20 and graduating with honors from a local college in May. Most their teachers I have met adore them and my sons Chem professor still keeps in touch via mail with us. From what my children have said, the thing that makes them stand out (to their peers) in class is they ask the teacher 'too many' questions/clarifications. Not annoying, senseless questions - questions like clarification on when the test was rescheduled for - when the other students were hoping the teacher would forget again etc. I do have to say my children said that the other students were always friendly (joking) about it and were never rude. Other younger and older adults seem to genuinely like them and often invite them out socially. One time the Dean called my son (then 16) to his office because a girl was caught cheating and the girl said the prof. said she could use her text in the test and counter-filed a complaint against the teacher. I guess the Dean felt (or was told) my son would be honest about the facts. In that case, it seemed to be more of the student trying to bully a teacher. Another time, a girl tried to get my son to sign a petition against their Anatomy prof. and my son told her off and said he thought the teacher was excellent. There seemed to be a lot of the student trying to bully a teacher going on at this college. I wonder if that is a trend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EthiopianFood Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 What was the nasty comment?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) My 15yo son has just started school- he's been there a whole 2 weeks- and I asked him today about the bullying. He said that yes it happens and he has seen it. The biggest bully in his year is also the most popular kid. Apparently this kid walked into a room and told my son he was sitting in *his* chair and to get out. My son just brushed him off with "go get your own ****chair, Im sitting here." And that was that- the bully said, oh, ok, and walked off and sat somewhere else. I am glad we avoided the bullying issue thus far- although I have seen it in homeschooling circles it was not directed at my kids. Hopefully the foundation has given ds the skills to navigate school now too. ETA- Ds has also commented on how the kids all just want to get out of their work, all the time. If the teacher forgets to mention to finish off the page of maths for homework, yet that is what he has said every other day....the kids will celebrate that he forgot to say it and they wont do it. Ds is finding the teachers like him because he is actually interested in what they are teaching. I am sure some school will rub off though. Edited February 16, 2011 by Peela Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyVanH Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 RaeAnn -- The nasty comment was mostly name-calling. The individual just really dislikes homeschooling and I'm sure has left similar comments on blogs having anything to do with homeschooling. I had to switch my settings to comment moderation and block Anonymous comments -- which I prefer not to do. I actually was so upset yesterday, I wrote a post about civil discourse on the internet: http://www.knittedthoughts.com/2011/02/civilized-discourse-on-internet.html I teach a class on blogging and argumentative writing to homeschooled teens at a local homeschool co-op learning center and will definitely be addressing this at our next class. I want to equip them to deal with the unfortunate reality of such people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holly IN Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) Michelle -- I received a far more "thoughtful" comment from a Mom who raised the issue of Homeschool bullying that can sometimes happen and I placed my response in the comments. I basically said, that yes -- certainly it can occur, but there are 2 major differences between school and homeschool bullying. 1st, parents are there to help kids learn to negotiate relationships that are difficult and 2nd, there's always the option to leave if things are untenable. And yes, I deleted the obnoxious comment. I welcome thoughtful criticism, but Anonymous critics that choose to use such rude language are just cowards. I won't give them a voice on my blog. Loved your article!!! I do have to say that bullying does happen in homeschool groups. We left one due to the increasing amount of bullying going on. (this was a Christian based group) My oldest son and youngest daughter were bullied. Lots of tears and headaches during that time for all of us. We were kicked out of the group because I raised a stink about the bullying. So they kicked me out to shut me up. We are now going to a wonderful group that has ZERO tolerance to bullying. This group is under the leadership of the church that we meet in (I do not go there as lots of the homeschoolers don't) The whole atmosphere is wonderful. There are no friction between the kids. When there is an issue they nip it in the bud. There philosophy is "Treat others as you would want to be treated". Us getting kicked out of the other group was a God thing for us because we would never have left on our own. :D It was some of the kids that bullied them but my oldest was bullied by his teacher the most. She wrote me a very long lengthy nasty letter about my son. I thought she was my friend. She was on the board of this group so hence why I was kicked out. I would have to say it is rare for bullying to happen in homeschool circles. Now about work.....LOL!! I have to say that I am being bullied at work by the night leader. That issue will soon be resolved hopefully. Workplace bully/harrassment does happen and its real. In my case its textbook harrassment sadly. I have been in the workforce for 20 years and this is my first incident of workplace harrassment. So that is pretty good. :D Holly Edited February 16, 2011 by Holly IN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalphs Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Kalphs -- the graphic was one I found on google and just displays one version of the social pyramid of some high schools. Below Preps are various categories like rock stars, nerds, geeks, artists, druggies, etc. It's another unfortunate part of the school experience that kids are sometimes pigeonholed into groups like this. Thank you Holly! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalphs Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Loved your article!!! I do have to say that bullying does happen in homeschool groups. We left one due to the increasing amount of bullying going on. (this was a Christian based group) My oldest son and youngest daughter were bullied. Lots of tears and headaches during that time for all of us. We were kicked out of the group because I raised a stink about the bullying. So they kicked me out to shut me up. We are now going to a wonderful group that has ZERO tolerance to bullying. This group is under the leadership of the church that we meet in (I do not go there as lots of the homeschoolers don't) The whole atmosphere is wonderful. There are no friction between the kids. When there is an issue they nip it in the bud. There philosophy is "Treat others as you would want to be treated". Us getting kicked out of the other group was a God thing for us because we would never have left on our own. :D It was some of the kids that bullied them but my oldest was bullied by his teacher the most. She wrote me a very long lengthy nasty letter about my son. I thought she was my friend. She was on the board of this group so hence why I was kicked out. I would have to say it is rare for bullying to happen in homeschool circles. Holly :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyVanH Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 Holly IN -- I'm so sorry to hear about your experiences (both in your previous homeschool group and now for you at work). I'm glad you've found a new homeschool group -- having the freedom to leave a bad situation makes all the difference. Isn't it sad though that bullying/mistreating happens in so many arenas. Children though are the most vulnerable because they're least equipped to cope and should be most protected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalphs Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Holly IN -- I'm so sorry to hear about your experiences (both in your previous homeschool group and now for you at work). I'm glad you've found a new homeschool group -- having the freedom to leave a bad situation makes all the difference. Isn't it sad though that bullying/mistreating happens in so many arenas. Children though are the most vulnerable because they're least equipped to cope and should be most protected. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalphs Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Now about work.....LOL!! I have to say that I am being bullied at work by the night leader. That issue will soon be resolved hopefully. Workplace bully/harrassment does happen and its real. In my case its textbook harrassment sadly. I have been in the workforce for 20 years and this is my first incident of workplace harrassment. So that is pretty good. :D Holly :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalphs Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) The NY Times ran an article yesterday documenting recent research on "bullying" among the popular cliques in middle and high schools and I've written a blog post outlining my take on this in the context of homeschooling: http://www.knittedthoughts.com/2011/02/homeschooling-and-socialization.html I'd love to hear what you think of it and what your experiences have been as homeschoolers when it comes to the "socialization" question. Thanks, Holly I went back and reread this article today along with the thread. Bullying is everywhere: Your family, neighborhood, public/private schools, place of employment, the internet, homeschooling groups, churches etc... I agree with the Jenny who said parenting is the key. Edited February 16, 2011 by kalphs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Time Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I'd agree with this... My oldest was bullied within her homeschool group, so I'm not convinced that it's only in a public/private school settings that this happens. The difference is that the parent is often there to see it, and act. Teachers often are overwhelmed, and just don't have the time or interest in diffusing every incident they witness. I think parenting is the key, no matter where the child is educated. I went back and reread this article today along with the thread.Bullying is everywhere: Your neighborhood, public/private schools, place of employment, the internet, homeschooling groups, churches etc... I agree with the Jenny who said parenting is the key. Yes, parenting is the key. But the problem with this is that it fails to hold the school system accountable because that systems has become the de facto parents. That system churns out the majority of people populating public and private settings, and even many homeschool groups are full of public school parents and some children who have been in that system. It IS the public. The other instances of bullying are mostly emanating from that environment and the outgrowth of some 100 years of that environment's influence on our culture and society. We have to face the fact that it is doing a poor job of socializing our population when bullying is entrenched and cheating is as well. These poorly socialized youngsters then become poorly socialized adults - in our workplaces, churches, hospitals, etc.. But because there are so many of them, it has become the new normal and better (yes, BETTER) socialized homeschoolers get called "different." :glare: (I have every reason to believe that being socialized by adults to be adults is better. And I believe that being taught not ever to bully or cheat is also better.) But instead of schools answering for this, the question is often deflected from public schools and instead parents who choose to homeschool are put on the defensive and grilled about how well they are socializing their children. And, BTW, I am generalizing. Exceptions are a given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyVanH Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 TeaTime - You make so many good points. I especially agree that "being socialized by adults to be adults is better." Well said! Certainly there are exceptions, but I also grow tired of being put on the defensive as a homeschooler about this issue. I've actually gotten hate mail regarding this post -- and I'm astonished that people have such harsh feelings about homeschooling. I also think you raise a really important point about cheating. It is rampant and it's frequently overlooked as no big deal by students, parents and teachers. As a writing professor, I'm astonished at how often students will put their name on things they didn't write themselves. And when called on, they're incredibly defensive about it. ....so frustrating. The more adults turn a blind eye to issues like cheating and bullying, the more we "socialize" young people to believe it's okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tullia Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 In that case, it seemed to be more of the student trying to bully a teacher. Another time, a girl tried to get my son to sign a petition against their Anatomy prof. and my son told her off and said he thought the teacher was excellent. There seemed to be a lot of the student trying to bully a teacher going on at this college. I wonder if that is a trend? I hope not. Disgruntled students have tried twice to recruit my son to complain about instructors. He refused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyVanH Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 Martha -- I do think this is unfortunately becoming more of a trend. I do think legitimate complaints should have a voice, but more and more I think students in schools are using this tactic simply to harass teachers unwilling to let them get away with nonsense, be it bullying, cheating or simply misbehaving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyVanH Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 kalphs -- even bullying over a blog post. I've had a hard time with this one for whatever reason. It surprises me how vicious people can be if they can hid behind "Anonymous" on the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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