WOW, just WOW re: my college writing class.

[texasmama]

I'm left speechless by the examples. Foreign students attending college in the U.S. surely have better English skills..

 

This is true, in my experience. In order to attend the university at which I teach, foreiegn students must take an exam which determines that they are able to speak and write fluently in English. I had two foreign students in my graduate class last semester, both from India. Both wrote very nicely and much better than 2-3 of my American-born students, ALL OF WHOM HAD UNDERGRADUATE DEGREES. So a college, somewhere, let these folks graduate without ever being able to string together a coherent sentence. I still have some of the papers. It is truly unbelievable what was turned in as a "finished product".:001_huh: My elementary age kids could do better work.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I'm left speechless by the examples. Foreign students attending college in the U.S. surely have better English skills.

 

I point out poor writing (or math or history skills, etc.) to my kids, but then I worry that they'll think they "only" need to be better. It makes me feel even more pressure as a hs mom, hoping I've motivated them to push to their highest potential.

 

This is true, in my experience. In order to attend the university at which I teach, foreiegn students must take an exam which determines that they are able to speak and write fluently in English. I had two foreign students in my graduate class last semester, both from India. Both wrote very nicely and much better than 2-3 of my American-born students, ALL OF WHOM HAD UNDERGRADUATE DEGREES. So a college, somewhere, let these folks graduate without ever being able to string together a coherent sentence. I still have some of the papers. It is truly unbelievable what was turned in as a "finished product".:001_huh: My elementary age kids could do better work.

 

I had a part-time freelance editing job last year, editing and polishing political letters for an activist group. The first thing I learned is that the ignorant will inherit the earth.

 

The second thing I learned was that when they asked me to "edit and polish," what they really meant was "decipher and re-write," or make it up yourself if you have no idea what the writer was attempting to communicate.

 

There were two writers whom I loved. I adored these people and wished I could meet them IRL, because they were just so gosh-darn literate.

 

I finally got brave and emailed them to inquire about their educational background. Neither had ever set foot in American schools. One had been educated in Belgium and Germany and the other was homeschooled.

 

This is apparently no exaggeration in many cases. I just saw it on a documentary called "Declining by Degrees: Higher Education at Risk." (If you haven't seen it, you should. It's on Netflix instant.) The more motivated students were stunned because they were never asked to write anything; there were too many students in each class for the prof to have to grade all those papers. :glare:

 

Thank you! I'll watch this tonight.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Dulcimeramy

[mktkcb]

Oh yeah....when my dd took Eng. 101 last year, she was totally appalled LOL! It was just laughable. You wonder what these kids are thinking??? mush, thats what. For the record, she had a 10yo genius type kid in her class who was headed for a major in theoretical physics or some such thing, and I'm telling you......his writing was the *best* of anyone in the class. wow. he was in her calc class as well.

[justamouse]

My kids write better-My 11 yo writes better! My 16 yo could blow them away.

 

Kids in school don't have the TIME to write. When I was in school I didn't have the time to write. Lit class was @ reading (big books) and discussion. We did write a little, but not much. Non of my other classes required much writing. It takes time and now in this mass manufacturing of sub par students, there is no time. And, now schools are so focused on maths and sciences? Still no writing.

 

I would love to see the essays the admissions officers slog through.

[Ellie]

But I'll bet those students are well socialized. :D

[Pretty in Pink]

My son is reviewing business letters this week. I was poking around the internet looking for business letters that he could proofread. Here is an example I found posted on a business forum:

 

Hi

 

I need someone to proofread this letter and see if there are any English error. My professor said she gave me a C on this letter because it contained English errors. Please give me some feedback.

thanks

 

One of Fry’s sale representatives, Henry Tran, mentioned that a sale representative position just opened up. Thus, I’m interested in taking that position. Since my major is business, I figured that this will be a great opportunity for me to learn more about sales and businesses while working.

My positive attitude and my ability to speak several languages such as Tagalog, Vietnamese, and English will greatly benefit your company. While working on my last job as a pharmacy courier, my employer and co-workers said that I’m easy to approach since I always smile. Because I’m professional and also very polite therefore; I will be able to assist customers while minimizing the tension. Your company will also look good when it hires more happy workers.

I thank you for taking the time to read this letter. A resume is enclosed with this letter and I will call you next Monday to see if I will be interviewed. If you have a different interview date in mind, please call me at (714) 811-1111 or email me at

[FaithManor]

Why Ellie! Of course they were...that's the most important thing...well that and knowing how to give wedgies and swirlies, and texting on iphones!

 

Faith

[cjbeach]

Ah,the basic college writing class. That dang thing cost me 3 semesters of college.;)

 

I didn't "get" this when I first graduated High School,but I do now. When I graduated high school I took the college placement tests for my university and I "comp'd" out of the College Writing class usually required for first year students. I thought "Wow, I must be such a GREAT writer I should MAJOR in writing!" I was 18 and completely LOST when it came to choosing a major. So I thought this was some kind of sign. Ha. I was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a great writer, but I was a proficient writer. My high school seemed to stress papers. We did a lot of writing papers across the curriculum (sound familiar??). Obviously my high school requirements were an anomaly if *I* did not require the basic writing class.

 

So anyway, I naively enrolled in journalism classes, became a Communications major, and 3 semesters later realized I had ZERO creative writing ability. :001_smile: I am NOT a writer. That is not my gift.

 

I switched majors, became a RN, and lost any and all writing ability I ever had. I believe if you don't use it, you'll lose it. I lost it. My writing became all medical shorthand and SOAP notes. (Remember SOAP notes, older nurses???) I have a very difficult time now sitting down and writing, even at the keyboard.

 

And those 3 semesters as a journalism major? Well, they racked up some major student loans for me... :001_huh: Dang college writing class....

[ocelotmom]

I have suspected lately that colleges have been dumbing down so to speak. I have met plenty of people working on their master's and doctorates who were not very bright at all and their description of their work sounded not very rigorous. To me it is shocking since when I received my BS in Nursing, I had to write at least a hundred research papers:001_huh:. I have heard that it has gotten much easier since then.

I finished my ASN last April, through the most rigorous ASN program in my area. I'm not sure we wrote any actual papers. Hundreds of care plans of course, and a few oral presentations, but if we wrote any papers, they weren't particularly stressful or memorable.

 

We did have to cite sources and so forth in the care plans, but they just aren't the same as an actual research paper.

 

Perhaps the hundreds of papers are the difference between and ASN and a BSN, though :)

[Joanne]

I work in the library of the same *graduate school* I attend. Working in the library allows access to student papers and "work" in a way simply being a peer student does not.

 

The writing I see here astonishes me. I am frequently appalled.

 

I know I have a legend amount of typos here. But I *write well*.

 

One of our students is a writing instructor at a local community college. He's constantly appalled.

 

I am a high school teacher. I found out this week that local schools (public and private) do not assign/expect RESEARCH PAPERS, and if they do, footnotes are not expected or taught.

 

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

[Joanne]

(Remember SOAP notes, older nurses???)

 

We (Counselors) still use SOAP notes.

[Joanne]

Here is a related article.

[Kirch]

you guys are making me re-think my hopes of attending college when my youngest is highschool age, and doesn't need so much of my time. I always hated group projects, I didn't realize there was so much use of peer review in college classes. :tongue_smilie:

 

Well, on the plus side, if you put the peer review stuff, you'll definitely stand out head and shoulders above everyone else--in a good way!;)

[angela in ohio]

you guys are making me re-think my hopes of attending college when my youngest is highschool age, and doesn't need so much of my time. I always hated group projects, I didn't realize there was so much use of peer review in college classes. :tongue_smilie:

 

The good news is that it's a breeze to get A's when everyone else is clueless. :D I barely try, and the professors think I'm a genius -- because I can spell. ;)

[Hen]

Well, on the plus side, if you put the peer review stuff, you'll definitely stand out head and shoulders above everyone else--in a good way!;)

 

true...but I would hate to have to read all the sub-standard papers, it would give me a headache and make me very grouchy. Then there would be the whole bother of figuring out how much help/correction to offer. I don't want to homeschool a bunch of college students. :tongue_smilie:

[Kirch]

true...but I would hate to have to read all the sub-standard papers, it would give me a headache and make me very grouchy. Then there would be the whole bother of figuring out how much help/correction to offer. I don't want to homeschool a bunch of college students. :tongue_smilie:

 

Yeah, like I said--IF you can put up with the peer review stuff. That might be a big "IF!"

[regentrude]

And, now schools are so focused on maths and sciences? Still no writing.

 

trust me, the outcome in math is not any better.

[misidawnrn]

The good news is that it's a breeze to get A's when everyone else is clueless. :D I barely try, and the professors think I'm a genius -- because I can spell. ;)

This is what I am banking on....:lol:

[LibraryLover]

I think it's sad, but I also think you're probably seeing some people with dyslexia or other language processing disabilities. I assume this is either a continuing ed class, or a class with a number of older adults going back to school--or starting school- because they were unable to when they were 18 or 19-- and not necessarily a group of Harvard or Vassar freshmen, who might not all be great writers, but who would not have such extreme gaps. In a traditional freshman college class, many first year students are able to test out of a 101 such as this, so you wold be left with those who didn't do well on the screening exam. One might find these sorts of troubled writers (although perhaps not to such a great extent) in a 101 who were otherwise able to meet the admissions criteria of the college. That's why there is a 101.

 

Most schools do not do a fab job helping kids with learning issues. Most schools expect one kind of learner, and the rest tend to fall by the wayside.

 

I think it's quite remarkable that some of these folks are even attempting such a class.

Edited January 15, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Charles Wallace]

Yeah. Peer-reviewing in my college English class made me want to cry.

 

When I graduated high school, my English teacher told me that she always put my essays at the bottom of the pile, so that she would have something good to read after the rest. :lol: I wouldn't blame it solely on instructors, too many people just don't care!

 

I do that too!!!

[snipsnsnailsx5]

Yes I have seen that too in my online classes!

On the positive side, I have noticed that even if I don't try as hard I still get glowing comments from the teachers. I think they are so used to these grammar illiterate kids fresh out of high school, that an adult with even some care and knowledge of grammar is refreshing. ;) I'm not the world's greatest speller or grammar-know-it-all by ANY means, BUT I'm better then those "youngin's" so that's all that matters. lol

[snipsnsnailsx5]

I think it's sad, but I also think you're probably seeing some people with dyslexia or other language processing disabilities. I assume this is either a continuing ed class, or a class with a number of older adults going back to school--or starting school- because they were unable to when they were 18 or 19, and not necessarily a group of Harvard or Vassar freshmen, who might not all be great writers, but who would not have such extreme gaps. In a traditional freshman college class, many first year students are able to test out of a 101 such as this, so you wold be left with those who didn't do well on the screening test. One might find these sorts of troubled writers (although perhaps not to such a great extent) in a 101 who were otherwise able to meet the admissions criteria of the college. That's why there is a 101.

 

Most schools do not do a fab job helping kids with learning issues. Most schools expect one kind of learner, and the rest tend to fall by the wayside.

 

I think it's quite remarkable that some of these folks are even attempting such a class.

 

Not necessarily, when I took English 201 last year, there were still many of the same problems.

I am one of those adults who are going back to school, or rather starting school for the first time, but the gap hasn't made *that* huge of a difference on me. Its been over 11 years since I've been in high school!

I do remember when I was fresh out of high school, I took English 101 online. I got A's and B's in my honor English classes at high school, and yet I still tested within English 101. I really struggled with English 101 that year. I don't know if it was because of my age or maturity, but it was really hard. I ended up passing with a "C". However, then over 11 years later I take English 201 (or 205...whatever it was), and I pass it with an "A" hardly breaking a sweat.

I don't know if my maturity and life experiences helped me to achieve in this class, or if the incoming younger students are just getting worse and making those of us who actually try look a lot better.

[Pretty in Pink]

I am taking a more advanced English course this semester and it is still a problem. Remedial English is numbered below 100 at my school. There were actually two English pre-reqs for the class I'm taking now.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Pretty in Pink

[nd293]

How depressing. And it's not snobbish to expect people to be able to write correctly in their own language...

[snipsnsnailsx5]

I am taking a more advanced English course this semester and it is still a problem. Remedial English is number below 100 at my school. There were actually two English pre-reqs for the class I'm taking now.

:iagree:

 

Yes that's how it is here too. English 101 is basic first year English that all first year Freshmans take here.

[MorganClassicalPrep]

I am taking a more advanced English course this semester and it is still a problem. Remedial English is number below 100 at my school. There were actually two English pre-reqs for the class I'm taking now.

 

I'm in advanced history courses and it is still a problem. Among history majors. You know, students who have decided that they want to get into a career that is researching and writing? :001_huh:

 

One problem is that there is a huge disconnect between what high school teachers expect, and what college professors expect. I remember being taught in school that to write a thesis statement you write what your paper is about. So basically, "I'll be writing about X, Y, and Z." Of course, this is not a thesis statement... that's essentially a table of contents. Also just the way they teach you to organize essays and such in school just doesn't relate to writing a college essay. I feel like college should be a step up, more difficult work, not learning entirely new skills on something as basic as writing an essay!

[Mejane]

I just glanced at the course offerings for english at my daughter's cc. There are twelve freshman english (101) classes being offered, and 26 remedial classes. I think that says something.

[LibraryLover]

I absolutely agree that too many students are not getting proper instruction; that's a no-brainer observation, for sure. However, I think processing issues such as Dyslexia are not well-understood by teachers, and in too many cases, little is being done to remedy this.

 

One sees children in the same classrooms who have marked disparity in ability. Why *is* there so often such a huge discrepancy in ability, even with a proven and 'good' teacher? In any given classroom, you will have those dreamers who just don't/cant pay attention, but you will also have children who do, but still don't understand. You will also sometimes see dreamers who are among the brightest and with few issues; some of these children are simply language- intuitive. Some students too, write well from a young age, but do not know the technical explanations. They just know whether sometimes 'sounds right' but could not tell you, rules-wise, why it does. Some folks are natural spellers right from the beginning, and some will struggle all of their lives, even after getting good instruction (which many will not).

 

How the brain processes information is fascinating.

 

It's not uncommon for even hsers to have troubles learning particular things. Is it dyslexia, the wrong program, the wrong point in time, a teacher/student mismatch? Even in the same families, with the same parent, the same program, there are ability differences. "This worked so well with my first, but this kid just doesn't get it no matter what I do!"

 

Some teachers and schools are abysmal, no doubt, and I am not making excuses for that, but I do often feel gobsmacked by the mystery that is the human brain.

Edited January 15, 2011 by LibraryLover

[ereks mom]

I AM STANDING HERE BESIDE MYSELF! (movie quote)

 

 

Short Circuit? I LOVED that movie!

[LibraryLover]

I just glanced at the course offerings for english at my daughter's cc. There are twelve freshman english (101) classes being offered, and 26 remedial classes. I think that says something.

 

 

That doesn't surprise me in the least. It makes total sense, in fact. CC is very often the only place with remedial opportunities for adults. CC tend to serve a hugely diverse population of different learners , some who are making that last -ditch effort to 'get it'. Our local CC is the go-to institution for many older & struggling learners, and even for people whose first language is not English.

Edited January 15, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Mejane]

That doesn't surprise me in the least. It makes total sense, in fact. CC is very often the only place with remedial opportunities for adults. CC tend to serve a hugely diverse population of different learners , some who are making that last -ditch effort to 'get it'. Our local CC is the go-to institution for many older & struggling learners, and even for people whose first language is not English.

 

I see your point. Unfortunately, many, many of those taking the classes are also kids who failed the placement exam (this from a counselor in the registrar's office who was shocked by my dd's high score.)

[LibraryLover]

I see your point. Unfortunately, many, many of those taking the classes are also kids who failed the placement exam (this from a counselor in the registrar's office who was shocked by my dd's high score.)

 

 

Yes. I think there are many young students like that. It makes you wonder how many of them have been struggling for years and years. It's a wonder to me that so many even give it another shot.

[Perry]

Yes. I think there are many young students like that. It makes you wonder how many of them have been struggling for years and years. It's a wonder to me that so many even give it another shot.

What concerns me is that many haven't been struggling at all. They've been led to believe that their work is just fine.

From http://www.popecenter.org/commentaries/article.html?id=2460

 

“In 2007-08 about a third of first-year students had taken at least one remedial course, according to the U.S. Department of Education. At public two-year colleges, that number rises to about 42 percent. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, about three-quarters of institutions that enroll freshmen offer at least one course in remedial reading, writing, or mathematics.

To some extent, the need for such a high degree of remedial coursework can be traced to poor standards in high schools. A 2008 study by the nonprofit Strong American Schools found that nearly four out of five remedial students had a high school GPA of 3.0 or higher. For these students, high schools failed to prepare them for college-level work and misled them about their abilities to succeed academically.”

 

[LibraryLover]

What concerns me is that many haven't been struggling at all. They've been led to believe that their work is just fine.

From http://www.popecenter.org/commentaries/article.html?id=2460

 

 

It does make one wonder. It's got to be a combination of factors. Not all kids think this way, and not all teachers teach this way.

[misidawnrn]

I was just talking to my "partner" for this class that I am taking. We have to have partners and he asked me to be his partner because I was his delivery nurse for his wife's first baby...isn't that sweet. Anyway, I told him I was appalled at some of the posts and that proper nouns weren't being capitalized, etc. He agreed and actually knows the person "Lucy" in my first post's example of how bad the writing is. He said he went to high school with her and she was an "honor student" and was always thought of as advanced.:confused::001_huh: WOW! If that is an example of advanced, I will certainly get good grades. I am interested to read the first paper that will be posted next week.

I started watching the Netflix movie posted a few pages ago. It is shocking! One kid made me laugh. He was surpised that the teacher didn't tell him what was on the test, yet he said that the test was over the first 2 chapters....there's your clue...it's over the first 2 chapters...maybe you should read them! He said in high school the teachers would give him a study guide of what to study. Wouldn't that be nice. Here's exactly what I am going to test you on so you can find the answers now and pass the test.:glare: