Vaccine Awareness Week Nov. 1 - 7

[Murmer]

Just another thought regarding mild reactions...one of the problems I have is that when they were shooting my dd up with 4 shots at a time and she had a mild reaction there was no way of knowing what immu caused it or if it was 2 or more interacting. I have since split my ds's immus such that he gets no more than 2 at a time (yes I went every month from the time he was 2 months so that he would be up to date). When he did have a mild reaction (slight fever of 101) I was able to identify what 2 were suspect and have now divided those up so he only gets 1 or the other. It takes more mommy work and more visits (just got him the DTapP one at an asthma appt because his next well baby is his second flu shot and I would NOT get them both at the same time...dr thought I was insane (not my dr just one in the practice) but its done and he will be up to date. I like knowing what is going into my child and have control over what is causing even mild reactions. Who knows when a mild reaction can turn into severe...we know it happens with allergies why couldn't it with vaccines.

[kalanamak]

 

I would prefer that a CP vax had not been released. My 10yo was not vaxed for that and I was intending for him to catch it "wild". He never did, because I haven't witnessed a single person who has had CP in the past 11 years (13, actually, but all my son's life).

 

 

Zoster! The grown-ups I know who got it, got it from zoster patients. Can he volunteer in the laundry department of the local nursing home? :)

 

(My ex MIL, an RN from India, told my exHub that "the white wh*re" (me) had given him syphilis, but it was just an exuberant case of CP.)

[kiana]

Diphtheria & Tetanus can both be treated with an anti-toxin. I am not terribly concerned about my children getting either one of those (or rabies for that matter) but I can treat them if need be.

 

 

People say this frequently. Have you checked what the survival rate is of these diseases, even if treated?

 

As far as I can find, the survival rate of unvaccinated who manage to acquire tetanus is about 85%. (This is in the US, in countries without Western medicine it is far higher). Survival rate of symptomatic rabies is incredibly low and the few survivors have been left with serious brain damage, although the standard treatment is the post-exposure prophylaxis. Diphtheria is far less worrisome as it's pretty much restricted to humans and now quite rare in the US.

 

I'm not saying (btw) that you *should* go against your religious beliefs regarding vaccination, but the idea that because it's treatable by antitoxin you don't need to worry about it at all is false. If you're not vaccinated against tetanus, it's even more important to keep a good watch over open wounds and especially puncture wounds, especially if you live in areas which have historically been used for livestock. If you're not going to vaccinate your animals for rabies, it's important to make sure that they don't, for example, chase raccoons or bats, and look for early symptoms if they've been out playing.

[*~Tina~*]

Good heavens, we are told to introduce one solid food at a time, and space them out to know how well they tolerate it. But at 2 months we will administer up to *6* vaccines at once! :001_huh:

 

:ohmy: Oh, my. . .what a great observation and good dose of food for thought. :hurray: Score one for Cindergretta.

 

 

Now, as a side note. . .who'd like to come to my house for spaghetti dinner next weekend? Be forewarned. . .it may cause diarrhea, swelling around the mouth, fever, stomach ache, vomitting, and/or a headache, but don't worry, these are mild, normal reactions to my cooking. :ack2:

 

 

Seriously though, overlooking my peculiar sense of humor and naivety in posting about vaccines. . .I for one have appreciated the bulk of the thread and those who have shared thoughtfully on both sides of the coin. I don't fancy myself standing firmly on one side or the other, but rather on my knees in abeyance, diligently and continually trying to process the mass of confusing and conflicting information available, seeking a balance between the benefits and risks, all in effort to make the best, most informed decision I can for my children. Afterall, it is for our childrens well being that we each are driven by such a passion on the topic.

 

Thus, I'll close by adding another grin to balance the glares :D and thank each of you who have shared and continue to share judiciously on the matter.

 

Blessings,

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Tina ~

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

http://seasonsoflearning.blogspot.com/

[Tylianna]

:iagree: Thank you. My youngest child hasn't had CP yet (the only one) and she is 11 years old. This is really starting to stress me out. I would have much preferred for her to get it naturally, at a young age when it would be less severe as she has severe exzema and I have been informed that her reaction will probably be worse the older she gets. Not to mention that if she doesn't get it by the time she is old enough to get pregnant then we will really have worry about that aspect as well. No, I am not very happy about the CP vax! :glare:

 

I have never had CP, either. I was tested when pregnant and found out I have immunity.

 

It still scares me, though. I have never SEEN a person infected with CP!! DH had it when he was a kid and has some scars from it. He had gotten really sick, but he's still here.

We immunized our DC for CP, but I did not know that they would need boosters for the rest of their lives... Now, I worry.

I know that there will not be perfect vaccines when they first come out, that is why they recommended the boosters. Hopefully, before my children are adults, they will find a way to make the immunity stick.

 

I hope there is NOT going to be bad cases of shingles 20-30 years down the road due to a lot of adults NOT getting their boosters.

[Ginevra]

Now, as a side note. . .who'd like to come to my house for spaghetti dinner next weekend? Be forewarned. . .it may cause diarrhea, swelling around the mouth, fever, stomach ache, vomitting, and/or a headache, but don't worry, these are mild, normal reactions to my cooking.

 

I'm assuming you're using humor, but I want to make a point about mild, normal reactions, just in case.

 

To me, "mild, normal reactions" to vaccines are not any big deal. I don't even care if my pediatrician, or the CDC, goes to the trouble to record them. The reason they get so little notice from me is because they are far preferable to the diseases they are meant to prevent.

 

I don't fancy myself standing firmly on one side or the other, but rather on my knees in abeyance, diligently and continually trying to process the mass of confusing and conflicting information available, seeking a balance between the benefits and risks, all in effort to make the best, most informed decision I can for my children. Afterall, it is for our childrens well being that we each are driven by such a passion on the topic.

 

I'm glad to hear it. I've been in the same spot. The most illuminating information I ever read regarding vaccines was written by Dr. Wile, the Apologia high school text author. It is available on his blog. If you have a few hours to read and process all the information he discusses, and if you truly want information that makes sense, rather than just looking for something to support an idea you already believe, I know of no better available information. Google it, you can find the information. I think the article is called "Vaccines are the greatest gift God has allowed man to discover," or something along those lines. :001_smile:

[Ginevra]

It still scares me, though. I have never SEEN a person infected with CP!! DH had it when he was a kid and has some scars from it. He had gotten really sick, but he's still here.

We immunized our DC for CP, but I did not know that they would need boosters for the rest of their lives... Now, I worry.

 

I and my sibs got CP when I was 6 and I remember it vividly. Truly, some people come down with mild cases, so mine is not everybody's experience, but it was absolutely hellish. i remember screaming in agony when I had to urinate, because I had lesions you-know-where and the urine felt like fire. I remember my sister had lesions down her throat and even swallowing her own spit was agony. When my niece had CP, the lesions on her face became infected with Impetigo. Her face was PURPLE over her entire cheek are; I was very concerned that it would be scarred for life. (It wasn't, thankfully.)

 

The point of creating any vaccine is to eradicate the disease. Boosters are needed because those diseases are not eradicated. The great victory over Smallpox is a perfect example of the best-case-scenario of vaccines. I am in the camp that hopes we will soon eliminate Polio as a vaccine, because it is close to non-existent. But it is because of long-term, mass immunization that a disease can be eradicated.

[Perry]

 

The point of creating any vaccine is to eradicate the disease.

Eradication of disease is a goal of some, but not all, vaccines.

 

Diseases that have an animal reservoir, like rabies or influenza, aren't considered eradicable. For instance, influenza circulates widely in birds and pigs. Even if every single human was vaccinated, eventually a different flu strain would cross species into humans, and we'd have a new pandemic. Ideally someday we'll have a universal flu vaccine that works against every strain of the flu, instead of the strain-specific vaccines we currently have.

 

Another example is tetanus. While it's infectious, it isn't contagious. It would never be eradicated, because it's ubiquitous in the environment.

 

Those vaccines are still useful though, even though those disease a ren't considered eradicable.

[angela in ohio]

It still scares me, though. I have never SEEN a person infected with CP!! DH had it when he was a kid and has some scars from it. He had gotten really sick, but he's still here.

We immunized our DC for CP, but I did not know that they would need boosters for the rest of their lives...

 

I had chicken pox as a young child, and I have scars on my face from it. You can bet I had my dc vaccinated, though we did wait until my doctor was comfortable with its track record. We knew at the time there would be boosters to come, as there are with many vaccines.

 

My brother had shingles; I haven't, though we were both vaccinated. We talked about it, and he would rather have shingles than have had scars on his face. :001_smile: (Though I admittedly don't really understand the way CP/shingles work. I hear people say shingles is what happens when adults don't get CP, but I know adults who have had shingles and some had CP and some didn't. :confused:)

 

I think it's key to have a great doctor, to shop around until you find one. None of my dc have ever had more than two vaccines at once, including the years we used 'Shots for Tots' because dh's insurance didn't cover immunizations. It was a bit more trouble to go repeatedly, but it made me feel better.

[Cindyz]

I was vaccinated for CP and had chicken pox as a child at around 5 years old and then I got shingles when I was about 9 years old.

 

My 14 y/o nephew is vaccinated and had chicken pox last year and gave it to two of his vaccinated cousins. My son has not been vaccinated and was wrestling with all of the cousins two days before anyone knew they had CP and he never got it.

 

No point really, I just find it all very interesting.

[kmacnchs]

:thumbup1: The Hep B vax was the first one I researched and realized it was ridiculously unnecessary in newborns!!!

 

my hubby (head of vaccines at his ped. office) says it is b/c mistakes happen/better to be safe than sorry kind of thing - there are SOO many people interacting w/you and your baby in the hospital...

[nmoira]

my hubby (head of vaccines at his ped. office) says it is b/c mistakes happen/better to be safe than sorry kind of thing - there are SOO many people interacting w/you and your baby in the hospital...

There are documented incidents of children contracting it from other kids in daycare as well.

[kmacnchs]

Much of the anti vaccination debate rests on the fact that it isnt vaccinations which have prevented these diseases in modern times. It is the modern times themselves- the improvement in hygeine.

 

 

You may still hold to your same statement but have you seen the charts on certain vaccines? They show a world map and show (currently) where the diseases are rampant, where they are mild, and where they are non-existent...then you see which of these countries has access to vaccinations for these diseases and it matches EXACTLY...that was something that was hard to argue w/for me.

[mommaduck]

I'm assuming you're using humor, but I want to make a point about mild, normal reactions, just in case.

 

To me, "mild, normal reactions" to vaccines are not any big deal. I don't even care if my pediatrician, or the CDC, goes to the trouble to record them. The reason they get so little notice from me is because they are far preferable to the diseases they are meant to prevent.

 

 

 

I'm glad to hear it. I've been in the same spot. The most illuminating information I ever read regarding vaccines was written by Dr. Wile, the Apologia high school text author. It is available on his blog. If you have a few hours to read and process all the information he discusses, and if you truly want information that makes sense, rather than just looking for something to support an idea you already believe, I know of no better available information. Google it, you can find the information. I think the article is called "Vaccines are the greatest gift God has allowed man to discover," or something along those lines. :001_smile:

I've emailed back and forth with him several years ago on the subject. He's an arrogant man. Basically, he doesn't care if there are any major reactions, doesn't really acknowledge that fact. Just believes that any parent that doesn't blindly vaccinate their child with every vaccination out there is an idiot (even if your kid already had a severe to fatal reaction). Yeah, not the voice balance and reason :glare: I don't always agree with Dr. Sears, but I think he's a little more balanced on the issue and is willing to look at the issue all the way around.

Edited November 7, 2010 by mommaduck

[brewer13399]

I don't care to debate the issues but I do think some people do react differently to vax then others.

 

Now for us, my kids are all vax when they are scheduled too. My 4 boys hardly ever get sick and have never had flu, chicken pox, or anything major.

 

We have friends that has 4 kids too and they don't vax. Their kids are always sick. Always get the flu and have had other numerous sicknesses.

 

I think it is something every parent has to decide for their kids and themselves....

[kmacnchs]

I've mentioned this on other threads but there is an article

 

The Problem with Dr Bob's (Sears) Alternative Vaccine Schedule by Offit & Moser

 

put out by the AAP...just to add to your awareness :)

[lovinmyboys]

I've mentioned this on other threads but there is an article

 

The Problem with Dr Bob's (Sears) Alternative Vaccine Schedule by Offit & Moser

 

put out by the AAP...just to add to your awareness :)

 

And here is a great response to the Dr. Sears book that I think everyone who reads his book should also read (by John Snyder):

 

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=512

 

I think it does a good job of explaining risks-it gives the known risks for the MMR vaccine, for instance. It really helped me understand why scary sounding things are used in vaccines. I know that I will never be fully informed on the issue because I have never studied graduate level sciences, but this article did help me after looking thru Sears' book.

[Ginevra]

Eradication of disease is a goal of some, but not all, vaccines.

 

You're correct; I misspoke. Thank you for clarifying it. :001_smile:

 

I've emailed back and forth with him several years ago on the subject. He's an arrogant man. Basically, he doesn't care if there are any major reactions, doesn't really acknowledge that fact. Just believes that any parent that doesn't blindly vaccinate their child with every vaccination out there is an idiot (even if your kid already had a severe to fatal reaction). Yeah, not the voice balance and reason

 

Mammaduck, did you read his analysis and look at his information? I have never e-mailed or spoken to the man, so I have no basis on which to assess whether he's arrogant or not. But I thought his analysis was very compelling. The information he reports does jibe with my experiences and observations, plus he has nothing (that I can tell) to personally gain or lose from whether or not people vaccinate. It was, to me, one of the few rational, logical explanations about vaccination that helped me clear through the clutter of hysterical anti-vax vs. sheep-eople, follow-the-CDC pro-vax. Anyway...

[Wheres Toto]

That is not what she said at all. She is referring to how studies are stopped when one result is clearly "better" (meaning statistically better outcomes), it is announced that the trial is ceased because it would be "unethical" to continue. This is the language used. They don't say "would be opening people up to lawsuits" or "a waste of further money because results are so statistically significant, there is no point in going on". No, it is stated because it is considered unethical NOT to offer the patient the treatment being examined. No one is holding a gun to their head, nor hoping they die.

 

Just this week a large study about helical low-radiation CT scans of the chest, annually, for smokers was stopped because the morbidity and mortality was statistically significantly less in the group that was screened. In the article I read (in the paper), the phrase "because it would be unethical to continue" was used.

 

Is there a glare count that makes a thread unethical to leave unlocked? Can some grins immunize this thread against deletion? :D

 

Also, if there is a acceptable standard of care/treatment, they can no longer hold a placebo controlled trial because it is considered unethical to not provide at least the minimal accepted standard of care. For example, aspirin therapy for heart attach prevention. New medications can no longer be tested in placebo controlled trials - they must be tested against aspirin therapy. No one advocates removing patients from aspirin therapy to possibly receive placebo in a trial when aspirin has proven benefits.

[happyWImom]

For me, one reason I have issues with giving so many vaxes so young is that it is presented as perfectly safe and healthy. Everytime I have tried to have a reasonable, intelligent discussion about vaxes with peds or drs, they simply will NOT acknowledge, in any way, shape, or form, that there is the possibility that some people (children) will be harmed. That raises red flags for me. There are a LOT of really good things out there that have a cost/benefit ratio. But when the "professionals" refuse to even acknowledge there could be a risk, why? Why is this one area presented as the be all and end all of health care choices?

 

 

 

On the one hand, I think that there is a kind of defensive reaction, kind of like when you talk about the great benefits of homeschooling with some people. They think we are saying they're bad parents if they don't hs, and their dc will suffer. Same thing here-most of the ped. that have kids get them vaccinated, so if we are saying they could be harmed by the vaccination......

 

Also, I really love & trust our pediatrician, and know he honestly believes it is the best thing. He cares about his patients, and he believes it's best for them and his own dc. But, he does honor my wishes to do a delayed vac. schedule. And, if I ask him which one should we get now, "this, this, or this?", he will tell me which one he thinks is the most crucial.

 

I know this is a tough subject, because we all love our dc and want to make sure we make the right choice. It's hard to know what that is sometimes.

[mommaduck]

Mammaduck, did you read his analysis and look at his information? I have never e-mailed or spoken to the man, so I have no basis on which to assess whether he's arrogant or not. But I thought his analysis was very compelling. The information he reports does jibe with my experiences and observations, plus he has nothing (that I can tell) to personally gain or lose from whether or not people vaccinate. It was, to me, one of the few rational, logical explanations about vaccination that helped me clear through the clutter of hysterical anti-vax vs. sheep-eople, follow-the-CDC pro-vax. Anyway...

Yes, that is what led to the emails. He had "attitude" all over his emails as though he was above everyone else and an "expert" (which he is not).

[Ginevra]

Yes, that is what led to the emails.

 

I'd be interested to hear more about what you talked about and how he replied, if you want to PM me. If you don't, no big deal. I'm just curious.

[mommaduck]

I'd be interested to hear more about what you talked about and how he replied, if you want to PM me. If you don't, no big deal. I'm just curious.

It's been so long that I don't even have that email account, not the emails anymore. I would not be able to give you specifics. I just remember his attitude and his refusal to actually discuss severe reactions, delayed or selective vaccination, etc. The attitude was that the first was too minimal for any of "those people" to count and thus no need for consideration of the second. The thing is, we aren't "too minimal" statistically to count. There are enough to have concern and at the very least reconsider the current schedule.

[Jenn in Mo]

I had chicken pox as a young child, and I have scars on my face from it. You can bet I had my dc vaccinated, though we did wait until my doctor was comfortable with its track record. We knew at the time there would be boosters to come, as there are with many vaccines.

 

My brother had shingles; I haven't, though we were both vaccinated. We talked about it, and he would rather have shingles than have had scars on his face. :001_smile: (Though I admittedly don't really understand the way CP/shingles work. I hear people say shingles is what happens when adults don't get CP, but I know adults who have had shingles and some had CP and some didn't. :confused:)

 

I think it's key to have a great doctor, to shop around until you find one. None of my dc have ever had more than two vaccines at once, including the years we used 'Shots for Tots' because dh's insurance didn't cover immunizations. It was a bit more trouble to go repeatedly, but it made me feel better.

 

I am definitely not an expert, but if I understand it correctly, you have to have had CP to get shingles....that the CP is somehow dormant in the body but can have flares of shingles from it.

 

Also, I've read that exposure to other people with CP acts as a natural booster to adults that have already had CP and that these natural "boosters" keep them from breaking out with shingles.

 

The CP vaccine has greatly lowered the CP rate and it's rather hard to find a natural "booster" these days, making shingles rates increase. Hence, the shingles vaccine being so necessary.

 

I'm very curious to know whether or not one can come down with shingles after having had the CP vaccine.