Does anyone feel that CLE LA is NOT as rigorous as Rod+Staff English?

[HappyGrace]

That perhaps the sentences to diagram are not as rigorous, or anything like that?

[angela&4boys]

I've actually found the opposite to be true in our case. One ds used the CLE 500 series last year, and is using R & S 5 this year. He is diagramming less often and with less rigour with R & S. He is finishing up the the fourth chapter though, so perhaps it will be more intense as he gets further into the study?

 

My 2 cents. ;)

[Tree House Academy]

Oh gosh yes...and my degree is in English. IMO, CLE LA does not hold a candle to R&S. R&S is thorough and the best thing is that the order of the lessons makes logical sense. In CLE, we always felt like we were doing on thing, then over to another, than back to graze past the first again, then a new thing. It was not the best fit for us at all. R&S presents it in a logical sequence and builds on a foundation they lay each year as the books progress.

[Daisy]

Yes. We thought about moving over to CLE LA from R&S but I changed my mind when my daughter scored almost 2 grades ahead in CLE LA. I find CLE has a slower s&s in English and more busywork.

 

BUT for those who want a solid English program that moves at nice pace and has a lot of consumable writing as reinforcement, CLE is a great choice.

 

For what its worth we've used R&S grades 1-6. We took the placement tests for CLE and I bought the grade levels, but sold them after about 2 months.

[MIch elle]

I've used R&S English 7 and CLE LA 7 and they are have a very similar S&S. I prefer CLE LA 7 to R&S E. 7.

[angela&4boys]

...the best thing is that the order of the lessons makes logical sense.... R&S presents it in a logical sequence and builds on a foundation they lay each year as the books progress.

 

:iagree: This is what most appeals to me about R & S.

[m0mmaBuck]

Oh gosh yes...and my degree is in English. IMO, CLE LA does not hold a candle to R&S. R&S is thorough and the best thing is that the order of the lessons makes logical sense. In CLE, we always felt like we were doing on thing, then over to another, than back to graze past the first again, then a new thing. It was not the best fit for us at all. R&S presents it in a logical sequence and builds on a foundation they lay each year as the books progress.

 

We tried CLE 100 level last year (along with FLL) and DS was in tears on a daily basis when it came to LA. Not only was it overly repetitive, but he never got enough practice of the new thing to be able to retain it until the next time it popped up. We started with R&S 3 this year. The oral review has been a godsend (handwriting and spelling are weak points for DS and we work on them separately) and the logical sequence of things has helped with retention. We finished lesson 25 on Friday and he hasn't shed so much as a tear during LA this year and he is actually learning what he is being given.

[Mommyfaithe]

That perhaps the sentences to diagram are not as rigorous, or anything like that?

 

I have used both...and NO, I don't think CLE is less "rigorous." I think it has less examples daily and for us that makes the lessons so much less tedious. My kids can not STAND doing 15 of the same.exact.thing...day after day after day...2 or 3 ok...8-12...not so good.

 

I think in R&S, I had my kids do the first 5 and then only do the rest if I needed to...my ocd about finishing every last example was really tried. With CLE, there are enough but not too much.

 

Faithe

[Daisy]

I have used both...and NO, I don't think CLE is less "rigorous." I think it has less examples daily and for us that makes the lessons so much less tedious. My kids can not STAND doing 15 of the same.exact.thing...day after day after day...2 or 3 ok...8-12...not so good.

 

I think in R&S, I had my kids do the first 5 and then only do the rest if I needed to...my ocd about finishing every last example was really tried. With CLE, there are enough but not too much.

 

Faithe

 

LOL. That is so funny how two people very similar (ocd about finishing stuff) can come to such different conclusions. What I love about R&S is that I know there are multiple examples of the same concept so I don't feel bad about skipping them. With CLE I felt like we had to do every single problem on every single day and it drove us all crazy. :lol:

 

I think they are both excellent curriculums.

[Mommyfaithe]

LOL. That is so funny how two people very similar (ocd about finishing stuff) can come to such different conclusions. What I love about R&S is that I know there are multiple examples of the same concept so I don't feel bad about skipping them. With CLE I felt like we had to do every single problem on every single day and it drove us all crazy. :lol:

 

I think they are both excellent curriculums.

 

:lol::lol::cheers2:

[HappyGrace]

Rats! Not looking good for CLE!!

 

I have dd10 doing R+S English 5. (We did 2 way back when but it was all review after FLL 1/2.) I wanted to start ds7 on a path that is less teacher intensive AND has lots of spiral review, so I figured CLE. He is on 202, after completing 201, and I am JUST using the grammar portion so it feels like such a waste crossing off everything else!

 

And anyway, it just somehow feels "weak" to me. I was hoping people would say it gets better :( I can see in dd's R+S that their diagramming "stretches" the child, and CLE's (just looking at samples) seems to have them just following the formula they learned that day.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think they're both nice curricula! Thanks for the input!

[birchbark]

I wanted to start ds7 on a path that is less teacher intensive AND has lots of spiral review, so I figured CLE.

 

I thought this as well, but when I tried out both CLE and R&S, I found out differently. Perhaps CLE gets less time-consuming with older students.

[Guest aquiverfull]

Rats! Not looking good for CLE!!

 

I have dd10 doing R+S English 5. (We did 2 way back when but it was all review after FLL 1/2.) I wanted to start ds7 on a path that is less teacher intensive AND has lots of spiral review, so I figured CLE. He is on 202, after completing 201, and I am JUST using the grammar portion so it feels like such a waste crossing off everything else!

 

And anyway, it just somehow feels "weak" to me. I was hoping people would say it gets better :( I can see in dd's R+S that their diagramming "stretches" the child, and CLE's (just looking at samples) seems to have them just following the formula they learned that day.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think they're both nice curricula! Thanks for the input!

 

Wait, aren't you using Phonics Road with your son? Are you thinking of switching or supplementing? If supplementing, can you tell me why you feel the need to do so?

Thanks. :)

[HappyGrace]

birchbark-I hear you! I don't feel like the CLE takes any less time, necessarily, at least at this level. Maybe at some point he could get more independent with it, who knows? I really like the spiral review though. I'm trying to decide what to do. I think R+S gets into "picky grammar"-just really in depth-around 6th grade or so. Plus in the early grades it is a lot of covering the same material in each grade before branching out to new stuff. I'm in a dilemma over which direction to go. Even thinking about FLL maybe. I'd like something we could use for the long haul though. I'm really looking to streamline things.

 

quivful-we're just in PR1 so far! And he's 2nd grade so I wanted to start him in some grammar this year since we won't be in PR2 til next yr. I was figuring on doing CLE all the way through all grades, and anything in PR would just add to it (since I only plan on doing PR through definitely 2, hopefully 3 if I can stand the dvds that long.)

[mystika1]

 

Not only was it overly repetitive, but he never got enough practice of the new thing to be able to retain it until the next time it popped up. .

:iagree:

[Tree House Academy]

CLE never took a lot of time for my older son...it was just so back and forth that we hated it. I found that, overall, his UNDERSTANDING of the material was just not that good with CLE. It was leaving big gaps for him. With R&S, he absorbed and retained the information. That is what the bottom line is for me with, really, any curricula.

[TMarie]

sorry... accidental bump. :001_smile:

[HappyGrace]

Yes, Tree House-that is exactly what I'm looking for.

 

I have all of CLE 2 here already-going to look ahead in it, maybe finish out this year with it if it looks ok. I think the spiral might be good for him this year, and it does have "extra" things in it like compound words, etc., that I don't think R+S has, and that he hasn't learned yet (although I think that is coming up in our wonderful PR!) And at any rate, I know enough grammar for this age that I can teach it enough to round it out where necessary this year.

 

I looked more into FLL and that's not for us, so it's ruled out. I am doing R+S 5 with older dd this year, so that will give me a feel for it and if it goes well I'll prbly switch ds over. Thanks!

[blessedmom3]

I might be against the flow here , but we really enjoy CLE LA for 2 grade for these reasons:

 

-easy to teach , almost independent study with great retention for the right kind of learner. Some kids enjoy and retain info presented step by step , in a spiral method . My son does well with this .I did not find that that CLE is overly repetitive or that it does not provide enough practice for the new concept.

 

-complete, includes phonics ,spelling. Even if their spelling might seem easy for an advanced speller such as my son , it gives practice in phonics skills which many still do at this age (my son reads at 6-7th grade level but until last week he did not know all the Y rules .For spelling we do a lot of dictation and copywork in other subjects.

 

-We even enjoy their cursive teaching. I also bought their I can do cursive book and practice along with CLE LA (after being disappointed by A Reason for HW) . He now has a beautiful cursive for his age(just turned 7).

 

-It does have enough writing for grade 2 , although not as elaborate as BJU for ex which I think is much more than what kids this age need. We also use WWE so that complements very well CLE .

 

-In my research , CLE is as advanced as R&S , even more in lower grades (up to 5-6th) but then R&S takes the lead with very advanced grammar , up to college level for grades 7-8.

 

-CLE LA is not as old fashioned looking , has more color and pictures than R&S . At this young age , CLE is more fun IMO.

 

However , I am considering R&S for levels 4&up maybe , just because at that level R&S can also be done independently and is very well done, including writing . But until then, I want to make things easy for me , focusing on the basics , which CLE provides well enough.

 

To answer your question, just look through the LU's since you said you have them. CLE gently starts introducing diagramming in 200 level .R&S does not start until 3rd in my understanding.

[Annie Laurie]

I have only used R&S 6 and CLE 2 and 3 so far. I did not find any difference in rigor. CLE is not time intensive for us and my kids are retaining it very well. The only negative I can say for CLE is that yes, sometimes my kids do say "I just did this!" and get tired of the repetition. But I think the spiraling is helping them to retain it.

[Tree House Academy]

CLE never took a lot of time for my older son...it was just so back and forth that we hated it. I found that, overall, his UNDERSTANDING of the material was just not that good with CLE. It was leaving big gaps for him. With R&S, he absorbed and retained the information. That is what the bottom line is for me with, really, any curricula.

 

 

Let me add to my post here that this is what *we* found in our family with my older son (and, unfortunately, with my younger too...though we love CLE reading and dislike R&S Reading...go figure!). I am not saying CLE will leave gaps for everyone or anything like that...just that their way of teaching grammar did not work for my kids and that gaps were there because it wasn't working. Just want to make sure I am clear and not misleading at all. I think CLE is a great company and I know that it works well for MANY people. The staff there is always helpful and kind, as well.

[Mom0012]

One of the reasons I picked CLE for my kids was because I have heard how in depth R&S goes into grammar in the later books. I'm just not convinced that's necessary.

 

I used CLE with both my kids last year. My son has a language based learning disability and got a score in the average range on the IOWA for the first time after using CLE 3 in 4th grade last year (though I did supplement with R&S's chapter on verbs). However, he really was not getting it. There was not enough instruction or practice for him. He started failing the tests and quizzes as we neared the end of the last lightunits. I think R&S grammar would be great for him, until it makes that leap in the 5th or 6th book but he's already in 5th grade, so I really don't want to even go there. I don't think he needs to go into the depth R&S is going to get into and I don't think it's the best use of our time to work on grammar at that level. I have actually switched him to Saxon Grammar this year because I liked the spiral method of CLE, but Saxon has much better instruction and a lot more practice. So far, it is working beautifully for him.

 

My daughter is still using CLE. Last year, there were times I wondered if she was really picking up what she was supposed to be from it even though she almost always aced the tests and quizzes. This year (3rd grade), a lot of things have really solidified for her and I can see she will just keep moving forward and doing well. I see her applying what she has learned in her writing. For her, I do consider R&S from time to time because she is a very strong student, but for now, we'll stick with CLE.

 

Lisa

Edited October 18, 2010 by LisaTheresa

[HappyGrace]

I really appreciate everyone checking in with their opinion-it's a tough choice, for sure. I am well aware that some curric works great for some dc, and not for others (even in the same family!)

 

I am still weighing and praying this all out.

[Guest aquiverfull]

quivful-we're just in PR1 so far! And he's 2nd grade so I wanted to start him in some grammar this year since we won't be in PR2 til next yr. I was figuring on doing CLE all the way through all grades, and anything in PR would just add to it (since I only plan on doing PR through definitely 2, hopefully 3 if I can stand the dvds that long.)

 

Ok, thanks for explaining your plans. I'm right there with you on the dvds. :tongue_smilie:Our experience with CLE LAs was the same as TreeHouse's. I don't know if it was the format or what but my dd was not retaining what we were doing.

Hope you can find what works for you. :)

[HappyGrace]

Thanks, Quiv-glad to have your opinion too on CLE. :)

[Guest aquiverfull]

Thanks, Quiv-glad to have your opinion too on CLE. :)

 

You're welcome. :)

[FriedClams]

We're using CLE and I think in the earlier grades there is a big difference between CLE and R&S. CLE 2 is heavier on phonics than grammar. They cover advances phonics stuff in reading and LA - especially in the earlier Light Units. It's really in grade 3 that CLE switches over to grammar based LA - diagramming, etc. R&S grade 2 Grammar is Grammar. They have a separate phonics book - so it seems more "pure" in it's grammar instruction, at least at the earlier grades.

 

At the mid grades I cannot compare the two - we've only used R&S 2 / CLE 2 and are working now on CLE 4 and 3. I really like the compact approach to LA with CLE - it's all in one spot. It takes my kids about 20 minutes a day - though some are a little longer. I feel that the level of writing required is appropriate to the grades and reinforces what they are learning - it's not just writing for writing sake. I think the grammar is spot on and I like the review. I don't like to have my kids do too much orally - so I like that CLE is a nice balance for that. One feature that's rarely mentioned is that CLE does a great job of teaching study skills - leading the kids through how to prep for a quiz, what to review, etc. It's a great skills builder.

 

I do feel that CLE writing instruction is weak - so we use Logos Imitations for the second half of Grade 3 and then Meaningful Composition for Grade 4. It adds very little time to our day and it really rounds out our LA. Each kid also keeps a LA notebook with copywork of the important points from each CLE lesson - again - study skills and writing practice. I also require writen history summaries 3 times a week (4th grade) and general writing assignments for the 3rd grader 3 times a week. I think they are getting enough writing. ;)

[Marie in Oh]

and CLE has everyone happy here. I think R&S was so labor intensive, way too many problems, etc. It took my kids 45-60 minutes to get through each exercise. With CLE, since they see each concept over and over again, they learn it and know they will eventually practice it enough to master it. I totally disagree that CLE is not as rigorous as R&S. I think it is equal, even at 6th and 7th grade. My son's diagramming is difficult if CLE 700. Overall it is a better fit here, but that is us. You might find R&S to be a better fit. I am so glad there are so many choices.

[mystika1]

Hi,

I know it is hard to decide on curriculum.:) I would just print up some samples and really study it and compare learning styles of your kids. I know that I would end up with R and S because it is reusable with my other kids and would save me money. I did use CLE for LA last year and it flopped cause it didn't spend enough time on a topic for any of it to stick at all. Some say that is ok cause they will review that topic later but for my kid that didn't work at all. It was total confusion.

 

I hope you find what works,

 

Penny

[HappyGrace]

Hi,

it didn't spend enough time on a topic for any of it to stick at all.

 

Thanks, Penny, in looking ahead a little this morn, I can see how this could happen! Explanations seem a little sparse too. I am still in the process of looking it over thoroughly.

[Veritaserum]

Sounds like a mastery vs. spiral discussion. I've only used CLE (third grade dd is doing level 300 this year). We like it. I may switch her to something else later, but it is very thorough. :)

[HappyGrace]

I didn't mean for it to turn into mastery vs. spiral but I guess it did to down that road some! Rigorous is indeed what I was wondering.

[mom31257]

I really appreciate everyone checking in with their opinion-it's a tough choice, for sure. I am well aware that some curric works great for some dc, and not for others (even in the same family!)

 

I am still weighing and praying this all out.

 

I know that R&S is having a sale this month of items that are second hand. I think it goes through the 22nd. This is the number: 606-522-4347.

 

Why not order a TM (has the student pages) for a grade you need, and order a LU or two from CLE? You could actually give both styles a try to see what works best for you and your kids.

[HappyGrace]

Thanks-I did some of R+S 2 with dd years ago (in 1st grade) but it was a lot of repeat of FLL (which she did in K and 1st part of 1st, I think it was.) She is doing R+S 5 now. I have all of CLE 2 here. So I'm familiar with them both, just wondering which is more rigorous over the long run. I had heard CLE was, but it doesn't look it to me, but it's hard to tell from just looking at the grade 2 books and the samples online for the rest! Thanks!

[mom31257]

Thanks-I did some of R+S 2 with dd years ago (in 1st grade) but it was a lot of repeat of FLL (which she did in K and 1st part of 1st, I think it was.) She is doing R+S 5 now. I have all of CLE 2 here. So I'm familiar with them both, just wondering which is more rigorous over the long run. I had heard CLE was, but it doesn't look it to me, but it's hard to tell from just looking at the grade 2 books and the samples online for the rest! Thanks!

 

I have the first half of the year for 8th grade if you have any questions about that far into it. My dd had done BJU English for 5th-7th, and I switched her to CLE for this last year before high school. BJU in 7th changed the format and didn't have nearly as much diagramming as I would have liked. I really debated using BJU English (2nd-6th) for my ds, but I love that CLE's covers so many subjects in one book.

 

LA is her strongest subject, so she's probably fine with any course. I thought a year of the spiral approach might be a good thing before high school. BJU is mastery. With using BJU those grades she scored post high school grade levels on the ITBS in 5th and 7th grades and in the top 1%. Probably all the programs out there get to the same point eventually. It's just a matter of which program you prefer, and which is best for the child.

 

I hope you receive your answer and know what is right for you and yours.

[HappyGrace]

Thanks, Amy, for sharing what your journey has been like! I agree-they are all good programs and any one of them would be a good choice; just depends on what works best for the child. And thank you for your offer on any questions, so kind!