Is this a new discipline/training method?

[scrappyhappymama]

... or have I just never noticed it before?

 

Very recently, I've noticed parents reprimand a misbehaving child by having them put their palms together or hold their arms out to their sides. These were different children, different families and very different settings. In both instances, the parent remained calm, but once the child disobeyed they were instructed to "put their hands together" or "hold their arms out" while they were reprimanded. I've noticed something similar a few times previously, but it didn't really register until today.

 

Just curious if this is a certain school of thought, or advocated by anyone in particular, or if it is just a weird coincidence? Is this the new "time out"? I'd be interested to hear the reasoning behind this training method and whether anyone has found it to be successful. I am intrigued because one of my children is very tactile and responds to various stimuli much differently than my other boys.

[Amber in AUS]

Never heard of or seen that practiced here.

[IsabelC]

Never heard of or seen it either. Maybe it's something new that hasn't reached down under as yet? Or maybe just a variation of the "stand still and look at me while I'm speaking to you routine"?

[Pamela H in Texas]

Somebody has been watching Dr. Phil and not getting the message.

 

There was a harsh father on Dr Phil awhile back (it must have been a long while as I don't think he plays in VA or he comes on at a weird time, not my channel flipping time). Dr Phil talked him into stopping the practice. The follow-up showed the father was able to discipline effectively without this and other nutty (and harsh and even abusive behaviors). The father was ex-military so that may have been part of it. And he was not calm at all. He had loud lectures while having the child do so.

 

I have also heard of it and various variations before though. It is expressly discussed as a method NOT to use with foster kids at least in some locales.

 

But some people will pick up anything, I guess. It's almost like people try to find weird stuff like this and other junk rather than learn to discipline better so as not to even need weird punishments.

 

I don't think it's the worst idea as punishment. IMO, when the goal is to hurt them enough to make them think twice about doing "that" again, it's better than hitting them on a couple levels I guess. However, I think that Dr. Phil made a good point that it detracts from discipline because the child ends up focusing on his arms rather than the better parts of discipline (points made, reasoning, etc). I'd much rather the kid learn from our discussion than be thinking about the pain in his arms or butt.

 

ETA: I think y'all are right about the hands together thing. It can be a way of focusing the child or helping the child not make a poor choice. For example, one mom told her toddler to FORCEFULLY push his fists into his pockets rather than punching his friend. This seemed to make sense. First, he can't hurt someone and second, he's still get some sensory regulation which is often helpful when you're frustrated, angry, etc.

Edited October 12, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[Laurie4b]

Two different things: hold your arms out is physically painful past a certain point and is something that would make me suspicious of abuse. (How long does the kid have to hold the position, what is the consequence for dropping arms?) There is something about it that is a yellow flag for me.

 

Put your palms together? Probably just an effective way of keeping a distractible kid focused on what the parent is saying--or perhaps the thing that started the lecture was touching things s/he wasn't supposed to.

[scrappyhappymama]

Yeah, the arms out one bothered me a bit. I saw this one in a store and it was after the child picked up merchandise from the shelf. Her mom told her to hold her arms out and after a few moments told her to hold them up higher and straight. I felt bad for the child because she was about ten and besides the physical difficulty, it seemed a little humiliating to me.

 

The hands together makes sense to me more if something is being touched that shouldn't be. But in that case, it was a younger child and the infraction was *not* touching something, but refusing to do something her mom had told her to do. So the palms together was more of a punishment/training tool than directly related to the incident- or so it appeared to me.

[angela in ohio]

I would assume it's something a PT recommended (or the parents read in a book) because the kiddos have sensory or other problems.

 

It could also be some sort of yoga inspired way to think about what you've done.

[Veritaserum]

I would assume it's something a PT recommended (or the parents read in a book) because the kiddos have sensory or other problems.

 

It could also be some sort of yoga inspired way to think about what you've done.

 

Arms out, no (ouch), but my dd's OT suggests pressing palms together as a way to calm down. She has sensory processing issues.

[Mergath]

When I was going through boot camp in the Army, our drill sergeants would make us hold our arms up like that as a form of punishment. Ouch. Doesn't look like it would hurt, but after a couple minutes it feels like your shoulders are on fire.

[SonshineLearner]

But maybe "ouch" doesn't mean "abuse". I mean... if someone looked at all of us... and took that "one time" just by itself... would be not all get judged about something? Sometimes I think that something like this... is taken out of context. I mean... it's not like I'm advocating shoving a kid down... and kicking them. BUT, disobedience means that Something has to click within the child so that it's "worth it" to stop. Sometimes I think that we're raising children to be treated as wimps. Hmmmmmm Raising your hands to your side... even if it's a bit of a pain, doesn't seem like an unfair consequence for say... a kid who just hit someone... pinched someone... or even picked up something that they were asked not to...

??

[Mergath]

But maybe "ouch" doesn't mean "abuse". I mean... if someone looked at all of us... and took that "one time" just by itself... would be not all get judged about something? Sometimes I think that something like this... is taken out of context. I mean... it's not like I'm advocating shoving a kid down... and kicking them. BUT, disobedience means that Something has to click within the child so that it's "worth it" to stop. Sometimes I think that we're raising children to be treated as wimps. Hmmmmmm Raising your hands to your side... even if it's a bit of a pain, doesn't seem like an unfair consequence for say... a kid who just hit someone... pinched someone... or even picked up something that they were asked not to...

??

 

In my opinion, anything that's used as a form of pain-centered punishment for adult soldiers is not appropriate for use on children. Period.

 

And not using pain as a method of disclipline doesn't make kids wimps. It teaches them that inflicting pain on another person is wrong, no matter who you are. There are far more effective discipline techniques.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Sometimes I think that we're raising children to be treated as wimps.

 

If it makes them wimps to be treated respectfully and respectably and to be required to treat other people as such, then I'm glad to be raising wimps.

[SonshineLearner]

In my opinion, anything that's used as a form of pain-centered punishment for adult soldiers is not appropriate for use on children. Period.

 

And not using pain as a method of disclipline doesn't make kids wimps. It teaches them that inflicting pain on another person is wrong, no matter who you are. There are far more effective discipline techniques.

 

First, know that I don't mean that you should have children doing it forever... or any of the other measures that are used... in adult form... I know what my brother went through.. and I just was SOOOOO sad for him!!

 

But, I suppose that I don't think that pain as a method of dissuasion (not really the discipline side of them being mentored ) is bad. So, perhaps that's where we would disagree. :( Pain is a blessing :) Just ask those few people who can't feel pain, what a problem it is. And, I don't mind inflicting minor pain in the training of my children. That being said, I read and apply lots of love and logic.. and have been reading books on loving and caring for children since I started babysitting at 12. So, it's just a difference... and I'm sure you'd consider me mean on some levels.

 

It's nice to be in a land where we can choose different methods of raising children... from what we feed them... to some of the discipline methods we employ.

 

Personally, if I had my child put his arms out... he'd pretend he was a helicopter and act like he was flying away!! He has a wonderful imagination :) So.. I guess I haven't damaged him too much.. since he's a happy go lucky sort of little guy!

[asta]

Arms out, no (ouch), but my dd's OT suggests pressing palms together as a way to calm down. She has sensory processing issues.

 

Yes. Carrying something heavy (like a stack of books), or pushing against your hands will do the same thing. It literally flips a switch in their brain that makes them calm down.

 

I'd forgotten about that one - my SIL (who works with all of the "different learners" at her middle school) taught me that when DS was a toddler. He was a handful.

 

 

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[Mama Geek]

I told myself I wasn't going to get into another potentially hot topic but here it goes anyway. I don't think a kid holding their arms out for a fairly short period of time is any different than a coach (or parents for that matter) making kids run laps or do push ups or any other form of exercise for misbehavior.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I don't think a kid holding their arms out for a fairly short period of time is any different than a coach (or parents for that matter) making kids run laps or do push ups or any other form of exercise for misbehavior.

 

I guess I do see a difference. Holding ones arms out to the point of pain has only one purpose ... to cause discomfort/pain. Running laps and push ups have more than one purpose ... physical conditioning, burning off steam or excess energy or emotion. I have had my kids do these things, not so much as punishment, but as a way to burn up excess emotion/energy to dial down the drama ... especially with testosterone laden boys:).

[susankenny]

That's just weird to me. It's hard to visualize honestly. My relationship with my children is not compliance only. That's not the end goal.

[Remudamom]

The only thing I can think of is that I would sometimes ask my kids to "hold their own hands" if we were in a store where they shouldn't touch things, but it was a precaution, not a punishment.

[FaithManor]

I've seen the "palms together and push hard while holding the position" used to calm severe ADHD childen. I was taught similar techniques in a class for teaching reading to LD children. There are several ways of doing this but the physical sensation calms the brain and forces it to focus. It can be very effective and for a parent with a child that can not tune in to their words until a specific type of physical stimuli is introduced to the brain to focus it, it can be a life saver.

 

I've also worked in music therapy and had amongst my personal students, aspies, moderate to severe autistics, a paralyzed child with spina bifida, three with significant visual processing disorders, two with auditory processing disorders, unbelievably severe ADHD, closed head injuries, CP, Down's Syndrome, OCD, and Bi-Polar. In many of these cases, due to problems with processing information, the children needed unusual forms of guidance in order for them to become well mannered, socially appropriate children. Something like the OP's form of discipline which gives a kind of "shock wave" to the brain so that the child then concentrates on the parent's words, was common but not a single one of these children was abused. So, without more information, I would not jump on the band wagon that "what these parents did is wrong, abusive, disturbing, etc." If you haven't lived it, you don't know what's being dealt with. One of my ADHD kids flapped his hands out at his sides (not an autistic, self-comforting measure but a controlled, learned behavior) while I talked. The movement helped him remember what I said. The goal was to eventually get the brain to tune in with a much smaller amount of stimuli such as tapping a finger on a desk or his foot on the floor.

 

As for compliance and obedience, yeah, in a perfect world our relationships with our children would be about sooooo much more. We don't live in a perfect world. Having done respite care for families dealing with extreme issues, I can say that sometimes compliance and obedience is about KEEPING THAT CHILD ALIVE OR PREVENTING THEM FROM HURTING OTHERS!

 

Faith

[Punchie]

This was a form of punishment used at my military school (high school). There were a whole range of punishments similar to this.