wanna laugh with me?

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Our *dear* (not!) ministry of education is closing down a school.. For being too performing... A private school that does not take any money from the government...

 

http://www.montrealgazette.com/Laval+MNAs+devise+plan+save+school/3347092/story.html

 

Earlier this week, administrators were told they'd have to close the high performing school for not following several provincial regulations, including guidelines for teaching English. The non-subsidized school, which costs $5,150 a year per student, taught more English than what is allowed and introduced the language in preschool, instead of Grade 1, as the government requires.

 

 

So there, if you do well, you are forced to close... Now imagine what those people at the ministry of education want to do with homeschoolers... Sigh...

[dangermom]

Ah, the joys of bureaucracy...:001_huh:

[Jean in Newcastle]

That is just crazy. . . what are they afraid will happen? That the govt. schools will be shown up?

[Pretty in Pink]

:glare: Wow.

[hana]

Can't let them learn English too soon.

[Matryoshka]

Can't let them learn English too soon.

 

This is in Quebec, right? So they're ostensibly defending the French-first idea?

[Colleen in NS]

Now imagine what those people at the ministry of education want to do with homeschoolers... Sigh...

 

That's insane. Wow, what control! And for a high-performing school!

 

I just got my newest HSLDA communique, and read the article about the homeschooling situation in Quebec - wowza! Thought of you while reading.

[Audrey]

That is just crazy. . . what are they afraid will happen? That the govt. schools will be shown up?

 

 

No. They are afraid that the kids there will learn just as much English as French. If you really want to see how nastily bureaucractic politics can get, just take a wade through the francophone/anglophone debate in Quebec. The rest of the country couldn't hardly care less, but in Quebec it is a very serious issue.

[mcconnellboys]

Oh my, I see scary images of a future to come for us here.....

[Audrey]

Oh my, I see scary images of a future to come for us here.....

 

 

Really? How so? How does a language preservation issue have anything at all to do with the state of politics in the US?

 

That is the heart of the matter with the Quebec homeschooling situation. If you are thinking it is something else, you are comparing apples to oranges in this situation.

[Jean in Newcastle]

No. They are afraid that the kids there will learn just as much English as French. If you really want to see how nastily bureaucractic politics can get, just take a wade through the francophone/anglophone debate in Quebec. The rest of the country couldn't hardly care less, but in Quebec it is a very serious issue.

 

In that case, it is too bad that they didn't try to out perform in math or science. . .

[Impish]

Quebec is a very different place. I've visited an hour north of Montreal, and had ppl shun me b/c I spoke English. Even those that COULD speak/understand English refused to in my presence. Attempting to speak French didn't garner me any friends either, since the French taught in school is different from what's actually spoken in Quebec. So, I was stuck in that I could understand a fair bit, but didn't dare open my mouth unless alone with certain relatives.

 

Even my grandmere, who was American, speaking English before her marriage, wouldn't speak English to me, and was some ticked that my mother hadn't raised me better (aka 'bilingual')

 

Sidenote: I do pronounce Quebec and Montreal in French. Gets me strange looks out here in the Prairies, not a blink in Ontario.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

This specific school situation is not so much about language though. Yes, they teach English in Kindergarten, but the crux of the matter is that they're not following the Quebec curriculum to the letter. And that's just not acceptable here, to be different. Even if it means your students perform better. If you don't follow the provincial curriculum exactly as stated, they close the school on you.

And *that* is what scary for homeschoolers.

 

Btw, homeschoolers are not restricted to French. The language preservation law does not apply, so that's not a problem (yeah!) But teaching math in any other way than the ministry has mandated is not acceptable. This is what is meant by this paragraph:

Earlier this week, administrators were told they'd have to close the high performing school for not following several provincial regulations.

 

 

[mcconnellboys]

This specific school situation is not so much about language though. Yes, they teach English in Kindergarten, but the crux of the matter is that they're not following the Quebec curriculum to the letter. And that's just not acceptable here, to be different. Even if it means your students perform better. If you don't follow the provincial curriculum exactly as stated, they close the school on you.

And *that* is what scary for homeschoolers.

 

Btw, homeschoolers are not restricted to French. The language preservation law does not apply, so that's not a problem (yeah!) But teaching math in any other way than the ministry has mandated is not acceptable. This is what is meant by this paragraph:

 

Really, Audrey? Apples to oranges, hmmmmm..... sure doesn't sound like apples to oranges to me.....

[Farrar]

Really? How so? How does a language preservation issue have anything at all to do with the state of politics in the US?

 

That is the heart of the matter with the Quebec homeschooling situation. If you are thinking it is something else, you are comparing apples to oranges in this situation.

 

I'm not sure if this was what was what the previous poster meant, but I can easily imagine a future in the US (Arizona, I'm looking at you!) where a private school wanted to teach in all Spanish (or another language in another state...) and the state wanted to shut them down or control their curriculum. However, we have much stronger protection laws for private education and a stronger tradition of freedoms in this way than in Canada so I don't think it would get this far. Obviously, Quebec has their own particular issues with languages, but to imply we don't have any here in the US doesn't ring true to me.

 

As an aside, I've had the odd comment from people who were anti-homeschooling, but the only friend who has actually seriously questioned me about it grew up in Quebec. After about an hour of interrogation and civilized argument, she decided I was NUTS, but is totally nice about it.:D

[Audrey]

I'm not sure if this was what was what the previous poster meant, but I can easily imagine a future in the US (Arizona, I'm looking at you!) where a private school wanted to teach in all Spanish (or another language in another state...) and the state wanted to shut them down or control their curriculum. However, we have much stronger protection laws for private education and a stronger tradition of freedoms in this way than in Canada so I don't think it would get this far. Obviously, Quebec has their own particular issues with languages, but to imply we don't have any here in the US doesn't ring true to me.

 

As an aside, I've had the odd comment from people who were anti-homeschooling, but the only friend who has actually seriously questioned me about it grew up in Quebec. After about an hour of interrogation and civilized argument, she decided I was NUTS, but is totally nice about it.:D

 

 

I think you are confusing what goes on in Quebec with what goes on in the rest of Canada. Please don't do that. Quebec is its own "distinct society" and is not at all a representative example of the rest of the country. All provinces and territories here make homeschooling a relatively simply option -- EXCEPT QC. In my province (and in Impish's), for example, freedom of choice in education is a given. We are not regulated in any way in my province, and the only way you get monitored/regulated in hers is if you opt to take the funding.

 

 

And yes, I remember the language issues in the US, but there is no "official national language" in the US. Here we have two. That has its plusses, but also its obvious negatives. Unless someone down there tries to pass some kind of official national language laws, I really can't see it being the issue that it is in QC.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Audrey

[Audrey]

Really, Audrey? Apples to oranges, hmmmmm..... sure doesn't sound like apples to oranges to me.....

 

 

Sorry, but it still does sound like that to me. Are you in some kind of state that details exactly what you can and can't teach your kids?? The last I checked, even the most regulated states didn't insist that homeschoolers use the "approved state curriculum."

 

Of course, you may be projecting some, in which case... okay.

[Impish]

I think you are confusing what goes on in Quebec with what goes on in the rest of Canada. Please don't do that. Quebec is its own "distinct society" and is not at all a representative example of the rest of the country. In my province (and in Impish's) freedom of choice in education is a given. We are not regulated in any way in my province, and the only way you get monitored/regulated in hers is if you opt to take the funding.

I don't know about the last statement, Audrey. As far as I know (and granted, I haven't explored all the options out there) but I *have* to register my kids with a school board, or face truancy possibilities. And even going 'traditional' as I am with Tazzie means filing a written outline with the school board. And a visit by a facilitator.

 

That said, I've never wanted to go without the funding available, so I haven't looked to see how else it may be doable. When I was first looking into homeschooling, I was posting on my city's board, and was told registration was needed. Perhaps that's my city though, and not everywhere in the province.

 

I totally agree about Quebec though. Very, VERY different. Even acknowledged in House of Commons.

 

Harper is such a Droid. :glare:

 

Yeah, we have to file notice of intent with a board, and the handbook specifies record keeping and meeting with the facilitator.

 

http://education.alberta.ca/parents/choice/homeeducation.aspx

[Audrey]

I don't know about the last statement, Audrey. As far as I know (and granted, I haven't explored all the options out there) but I *have* to register my kids with a school board, or face truancy possibilities. And even going 'traditional' as I am with Tazzie means filing a written outline with the school board. And a visit by a facilitator.

 

That said, I've never wanted to go without the funding available, so I haven't looked to see how else it may be doable. When I was first looking into homeschooling, I was posting on my city's board, and was told registration was needed. Perhaps that's my city though, and not everywhere in the province.

 

I totally agree about Quebec though. Very, VERY different. Even acknowledged in House of Commons.

 

Harper is such a Droid. :glare:

 

Yeah, we have to file notice of intent with a board, and the handbook specifies record keeping and meeting with the facilitator.

 

http://education.alberta.ca/parents/choice/homeeducation.aspx

 

Ah, okay. Well, we have to file an "intent to homeschool" with the Dept. of Ed. here. I didn't really consider that a regulation, though, because it doesn't dictate that you have to use a certain type of program or anything. That's what I was talking about -- dictating your program to you.

 

Personally, I think filing a paper to say "yeah we're homeschooling, so don't bother sending the truant officer around" is pretty homeschool-friendly. I've got no worries about QC-style interferences. :D

 

:lol::lol: At the Harper comment.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Are you in some kind of state that details exactly what you can and can't teach your kids?? The last I checked, even the most regulated states didn't insist that homeschoolers use the "approved state curriculum."

 

Well, Quebec does... Yup, if I were not underground, I couldn't homeschool classically. I couldn't use American homeschool curriculum, I would have to use provincially approved books, and only that. Mind you, I know families that write on paper that they will be using such books, and by the end of the year come up with an excuse as to why they didn't, so there's some leeway, but not much. The ministry of education has decreed that every single child in this province shall receive exactly the same education. It's playing havoc on gifted kids, although kids with learning difficulties are taken into consideration.

 

it's gotten so bad that when we visit museums on our own, the guides will ask the kids what grade they're in and assume a certain level of knowledge based on that. My poor DD was asked to 'please go and explain to Mom what a wampum is' when she was 8yo. She had no clue. We had to explain we were homeschooling and the guide started to tell me that I was neglecting their education, that they were awfully behind, that homeschooling should be banned for not knowing what a wampum is (we were in November, wampums are seen in the fall of 3rd grade - we were not that behind...)

 

*All* children activities are now based on the provincial curriculum. It's a real pain.

 

And so this little school, outperforming all other schools, has to close, for not being a good little soldier. Sigh...

[Carrie12345]

Sorry, but it still does sound like that to me. Are you in some kind of state that details exactly what you can and can't teach your kids?? The last I checked, even the most regulated states didn't insist that homeschoolers use the "approved state curriculum."

 

Of course, you may be projecting some, in which case... okay.

 

Well, PA does require that "the subjects required by law be taught in English." I'm assuming that will never be as controversial in PA as it might be in, say, Quebec, but it does specifically outlaw full-immersion, and I can see how that could be an issue for some families, for personal or cultural reasons.

[AHASRADA]

As an American who has homeschooled in two New England states as well as Quebec, I can assure those of you in the US that any state regulations you may encounter have nothing on the intrusive, patronizing "big brother knows best" attitude of the Quebec system.

 

Most Americans are accustomed to questioning authority, being encouraged to think and live "outside the box", and often admired for having the guts to "buck the system" in whatever capacity. As long as this remains the overriding sentiment in the country (which I see as part of the fiber of our being as Americans), I have no fear that our freedom to homeschool will be threatened to the extent that it is in Quebec. Simply due to the political ramifications, since homeschooling has become so wide-spread in the US, among both liberals and conservatives, I do not see any politician daring to remove a parent's right to determine the education of their children. Yes, there will always be minor battles over requirements, etc., but the defacto assumption is for a right to educational freedom, a totally foreign concept in Quebec.

 

This is about so much more than language. It is about the Quebec government having a master plan for their "perfect society", which requires every citizen to fit neatly into the box created for him/her. Questioning authority, living "outside the box" and "bucking the system" is strongly discouraged and roadblocks are constantly being erected to make doing so as difficult as possible. Multiculturalism, divergent thinking? There is the rest of the continent on which to enjoy those freedoms. If you want to live in Quebec, you play by their rules, or leave.

 

I understand and respect their desire to maintain their oasis of francophonie in this sea of anglophones. Unfortunately, the approach they have taken to do so only fosters contempt and disgust on the part of those from different backgrounds, who may have been inclined to embrace their culture if offered with honey rather than vinegar.

 

I was a francophile as a teen, adoring everything French and Quebecois, traveling to Quebec as frequently as possible, listening to Quebec rock radio stations, etc. I felt a longing to recapture the culture and language of my ancestors, and found a romantic appeal to life in Quebec. Unfortunately, the honeymoon was soon over when I found that culture jammed down my throat, not being offered the option of taking what I loved of the culture, leaving the rest, and combining it with my own ideas and beliefs. I mistakenly assumed Quebec would be just like home, but with cobblestone streets, stone cathedrals, charming bistros and boutiques, and French language in the air.

 

Yes, it is a beautiful place to visit, but living there... Let's just say I keep one foot on either side of the border for a reason.

[Colleen in NS]

We had to explain we were homeschooling and the guide started to tell me that I was neglecting their education, that they were awfully behind, that homeschooling should be banned for not knowing what a wampum is (we were in November, wampums are seen in the fall of 3rd grade - we were not that behind...)

 

*All* children activities are now based on the provincial curriculum. It's a real pain.

 

Wow. :grouphug: It sounds so Big Brother-ish. It's not just a case of someone not understanding homeschooling and assuming certain things about it - it's a feeling that more and more, you really are being watched from various sectors of society, right?

[Audrey]

This is about so much more than language. It is about the Quebec government having a master plan for their "perfect society", which requires every citizen to fit neatly into the box created for him/her. Questioning authority, living "outside the box" and "bucking the system" is strongly discouraged and roadblocks are constantly being erected to make doing so as difficult as possible. Multiculturalism, divergent thinking? There is the rest of the continent on which to enjoy those freedoms. If you want to live in Quebec, you play by their rules, or leave.

 

 

 

What is very unfortunate is how some people, especially Americans who don't know better, will look at Quebec and say "Canada's like that" when, quite clearly, it isn't.

 

Every time I hear another story from QC on education, I think of Cleo and wonder how she manages. I know she loves her home (home is where the heart is, after all) but it is sad to me that she is so oppressed by her own. It does not need to be that way.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Every time I hear another story from QC on education, I think of Cleo and wonder how she manages. I know she loves her home (home is where the heart is, after all) but it is sad to me that she is so oppressed by her own. It does not need to be that way.

 

Thanks for the thought ;) It's not nearly that bad on a day-to-day basis though. It can be quite fun to live here, and then something comes to bite you when you least expect it.

 

We're thought of moving many many times. But honestly, we haven't found where we would move. Everywhere we can think of, there's something we're not willing to accept.

 

When Asmaa says:

It is about the Quebec government having a master plan for their "perfect society", which requires every citizen to fit neatly into the box created for him/her.

she's both right and wrong. While this society here wants to control everything education-related as illustrated by the closure of the school that started this thread, it's also one of the most open societies that I know of. Some of us on this board would consider this 'sincity', but people of all 'kinds' can walk the street without fear, transgendered people are not afraid for their lives, nor even their jobs. People don't bat an eye when a family is made of two fathers, or two mothers. It's one of the first places in the world when a woman does not have to take her husband's last name when they marry. When we got married, I kept my identity as an engineer. My diploma, my business cards, all stayed the same. The clients didn't have to be told that I now had a new last name. It's not of their business if I choose to marry or not (or even to divorce, no need to go back to a maiden name!)

 

There's good and bad in every society. I'm just used to our particular mix of good and bad. :) I'm an 8th generation on my father's side, and on my mother's side, I don't know which generation that would be, but we go back to the foundation of Quebec City, 1608, and DH is at least a 7th generation. We're 'pure laine', can't really be any better than that. The fact that I'm fluent in English does not threaten my French Canadian identity, even though the govt thinks it does. If only people could be as relaxed on education issues.. Sheesh, I don't know why that's such a big deal (well, yes, education is a big deal, it just doesn't have to be so controlled!)

Edited August 1, 2010 by CleoQc

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Just updating..

the school is not closing this year.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/Laval+private+school+wins+reprieve/3352414/story.html

 

Look at that paragraph: (emphasis mine)

In addition to its unorthodox accounting practices, the school will have to address its overly structured teaching of English in kindergarten and the fact it was using specialists who weren't certified in the subjects they were teaching. The school was also told it must use required resource materials, obeymaximum teacher-pupil ratios, use approved teaching material and conform to report card requirements.

 

 

 

Wow, our sweet ministry of education has really toned down its requests, right??? Sigh.. I can only laugh at this, and think about moving...

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just updating..

the school is not closing this year.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/Laval+private+school+wins+reprieve/3352414/story.html

 

Look at that paragraph: (emphasis mine)

 

 

Wow, our sweet ministry of education has really toned down its requests, right??? Sigh.. I can only laugh at this, and think about moving...

 

Wow . . . obey maximum teacher-student ratio. . . Does that mean that they can't provide a lower teacher-student ratio?. . . Or did I read that wrong?

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Wow . . . obey maximum teacher-student ratio. . . Does that mean that they can't provide a lower teacher-student ratio?. . . Or did I read that wrong?

 

I'm not entirely sure, but yes, I do think there's a lower limit too. our govt is such a control freak ... :(

[lmrich]

We just watched Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. The whole Minister of Education thing sounds a lot like what they were trying to do at Hogwarts. The Ministry decreed that this curriculum be use because it will help you pass the test and that is the point of school. I didn't quote it because it is not a direct quote, but you can get the picture. It is just one slippery slope to total control...