chris's girl Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 My 12 yo DD--who is very bright and reads at high school level--does not really know her multiplication. This is despite having done A Beka math for K and 2nd, doing 1st and 3rd grade in PS with Saxon, coming home since then with MUS and TT. We have gone over and over these stupid multiplication tables. She will struggle through and get most of the answers right, but then when applying it, is clueless. She is now sitting there with her LOF book and asking WAY too many questions. I told her LOF says you need to know your multiplication to do the fractions book and she insisted she did. But the application is not there. Now there's a question about something times 3 being 150 (which could also be done with division), and she just looked at me with this horrified look on her face "I don't know how to do this!". I am on the verge of tears because she is just not getting it. I am so thankful she is home because I KNOW this is a problem. My parents never knew if I was struggling with something because I was in school and I brought home good grades. But now, what to do about it? The logical side of me knows she will catch up if we DO something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wy_kid_wrangler04 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Stop LoF for now and get math blaster. Its a fun way to drill multiplication facts! Also Timez Attack is a great and fun choice! She will learn them while playing a game! It will be fun for her and not boring drills over and over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriedClams Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I second Timez Attack. We use the full version and my kids love it and are retaining a lot. I also would recommend Times Tales. I used it with my kids when they were learning their facts and it helped them to retain them. I would NOT use it with anyone who doesn't understand the concept of multiplication - but for reinforcement it was great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wy_kid_wrangler04 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 BTW... NOTHING to be ashamed about! :grouphug: You found a weakness and you are asking for advice on how to help! Thats what we are here for! You are not the first with a math deficit! My dd was WAY behind when entering 5th grade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabrett Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 If she didn't understand how to figure out 'something time 3 = 150' I would use some form of manipulative to show her how to do the problem. Get out 150 pennies and have her divide them into 3 groups. Then show her that this 150/3 is a short cut for doing the problem. She might need to SEE how math works instead of trying to memorize random facts. For the life of me, I CAN'T memorize math facts! I have tried and tried. But I understand math. I would be more worried with her not understanding than not having the facts memorized. Memorized facts aren't going to help if she doesn't understand how to use facts to get the answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurad1125 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 (edited) We started using Multiplication Facts in 5 Minutes a Day by Susan C. Anthony this year. It's basically timed pages of 100 math facts by group (2's, 3's, etc) and you stay on 1 level until you can do them all in 5 minutes or less. DS hates to write and I told him he has to do 1 page a day until he passes them all but that once he passes them all he's done! It seems to working so far.... ETA - BTW ds is 11.5. You are not alone. :-) Edited July 28, 2010 by laurad1125 BTW ds is 11.5. You are not alone. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris's girl Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 (edited) oh, thank you, thank you! all wonderful suggestions. she'd really like those games, but yes, the practical ideas are good too. and thanks for letting me know we are not alone. there are so many children on this board who are doing ALGEBRA in 7th grade. but knowing the apple does not fall far from the tree, it does not SURPRISE me that DD struggles so much. so did I. I guess it's just different when you're mom AND teacher. so much rests on me and I want to get it right. Edited July 28, 2010 by chris's girl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windmilldreamer Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 If a big part of the problem is application, then in addition to something like math blaster to make the drill work a bit more fun, I'd do more with manipulatives--maybe even some work with graph paper to help make sure she understands what multiplication is all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leav97 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Is the problem understanding how and what multiplication is, knowing the facts, or applying them to word problems? If she doesn't understand multiplication you need to go backwards and insure a conceptual understanding. You've already gotten lots of advice for learning the facts. Learning to apply math to real world applications requires a very strong understanding of what multiplication is not just an understanding of how to plug #'s into a formula. I would take a look at the challenging word problems by singapore if this is the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iammommy Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 (edited) Don't feel ashamed, my goodness! You found a problem and are addressing it. We're right there with you. We have been working on multiplication facts for YEARS!:lol: As others suggested, manipulatives are good, and we've been suing Wrap Ups, which seems to be helping. Don't stress. She'll get it. Nan Edited July 28, 2010 by iammommy typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepoteetteam Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Do NOT be ashamed! You will get there! Stop what you are doing and just go over multiplication facts. If it makes you feel any better, we had to start 6th grade math all over again and we were 3/4ths the way done. You do what you have to do! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofuscramble Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I have my both my older sons (one who is brilliant at math and one who isn't) skip counting when they cant remember their facts. Counting by 3's to 150 is a lot, so for this I would tell them to count by 3's to 15 (adding the zero back in after) and then they will have the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris's girl Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 Wow, thanks so much. I am breathing a huge sigh of relief right now. Looks like there are plenty of ways for me to help her. I believe her problem is not in the concept of multiplication--she knows that it's just a way to add faster, and not so much in the facts (although she's a bit slow with them), but more in how to apply it and knowing WHEN to apply it. It's like she looks at the problem and just says "uh.....yep. that's a problem!". lol. so thanks for the encouragement. I am going to bookmark this thread and do it all. lol. Tofuscramble--that's the way I do math! lol. I was always so horrible at it, so I found ways around it. I"ve kinda shied away from showing my kids my way because I thought it was a bad way (for example, instead of trying to add columns in my head, something I am extraordinarily bad at--I say "what's 35 = 27? well, 35 + 30 would be 65, so minus 3 would be 62". I like what you said about helping her think it through in a less "mathy" way. Maybe she'll actually understand it as something real and useful if she has more than one way to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in AZ Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 To memorize the facts: TimesTales To help my ds increase speed: TimezAttack (we bought the CD and it's worth it) He has slowed down again though so I guess we need to work on them more. We're starting Life of Fred fractions too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MommaOfThree Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 My ds12 (brought home from ps) had the same problem. I tried quite a few math programs & nothing worked. The whole 'drilling facts' thing just irritated him, and he didnt really understand that or division. When I read about LOF and showed him the website, he actually got excited about it. I told him "a prerequisite was multiplication & division", so he decided to 'hunker down' and learn it! I purchased Math Tutor's Mastering Multiplication & Division by Carson Dellosa AND he's got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mind you, it took us a while to get through this little workbook but the explanations were to the point (which kept him focused) and with me working out 1-2 problems with him each day, he was able to comprehend all function taught in the book. Good Luck! FWIW .. I was working on phonics w/my ds7 today when my dd10 (who I've been having the worst time w/spelling-also brought home from ps) chimed in and said "I never learned that". Ugh!!! Now it looks like I'm back to basics w/him too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris's girl Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 Thanks you guys! I have downloaded the free Timez Attack, and will probably get alot of the other stuff suggested when we have money again. I still have 4 (soon 5) other kids that will need to learn this stuff, so I am glad there are so many resources! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenn&charles Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 My son is 12 and he has days where he can't remember his multiplication facts. I got tired of him constantly asking so I made him a math helper page with things on it that he constantly forgets: You can download it from my site: http://www.guesthollow.com/homeschool/printables/printablesmath.html He keeps it out when he's working on math and can easily look up the answer(s) for multiplication problems he just can't remember. It makes him more independent. Often he gets the concepts but has trouble with retrieval of details like 8x7, etc. Having a fact sheet on hand makes it so he can move on. I've noticed him using it less and less. Because he is looking it up himself, it's seems to stick more. I've also been having him practice using a Flashmaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougarmom4 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 One idea is to have her fill out a multiplication table--help her to see all of the ones she DOES know easily (zero, ones, twos, fives, tens--perhaps?). Then have her fill in all of the other facts she knows--pointing out that 3x6 is the same as 6x3 so she can fill in both squares if she knows this one fact. The point of this exercise is to figure out which ones are the most troublesome...so you know which facts to focus on. There are lots of games to play online to improve facts...I love this site: http://www.mathcats.com/explore/multiplicationtable.html They have an interactive multiplication table--instead of writing it all out, you drop & click numbers into the right spot. My ds likes that much better than writing all those numbers in. They also have a great activity that shows arrays of the multiplication problems--helps to visualize what the answers are. I also love the triangle flashcards--helps to see how division & multiplication facts relate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris's girl Posted July 29, 2010 Author Share Posted July 29, 2010 Thanks so much, Jenn! what a great resource! cougarmom--never heard of triangle flashcards. I'll have to check that out! and I just realized I miscounted my own kids! lol. Make that 5, soon to be 6 other kids that have to learn this! :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariannNOVA Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 Stop LoF for now and get math blaster. Its a fun way to drill multiplication facts! Also Timez Attack is a great and fun choice! She will learn them while playing a game! It will be fun for her and not boring drills over and over again. :iagree: Timez Attack did the trick here for all three kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 BTW... NOTHING to be ashamed about! :grouphug: You found a weakness and you are asking for advice on how to help! Thats what we are here for! :iagree::iagree::iagree: Don't worry -- she'll get it! :grouphug: Many math programs don't drill the facts as much as they did when I was a kid, and although "games" like Quarter Mile Math and Timez Attack work very well for some kids, my ds did better with plain old flash card drills. (He liked the games, but retained more information, more quickly with the flash cards.) Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 I like the RightStart card games because they force kids to use the fact knowledge flexibly. Also, daily mental math is great for helping things like the what times 3 is 150 problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabeline Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 You can print them out from Donna Young's website. I also highly recommend Timez Attack and skip counting. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanaTron Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 She is an excellent reader, and her writing is coming along. With math, she gets the concepts well, but those multiplication facts! Oy! She went all the way through MUS gamma--the multiplication one. She's used Timez Attack. Drill sheets. Computer math drills. She still struggles. I finally gave her a chart to fill in, and she uses that, but I'm trying to wean her from it, giving her thinking strategies for the facts. My hunch is that one day it will just click for her and she'll know them. I think that because that is how it worked with addition facts for her. I drilled her and drilled her to no avail. I stopped the drilling. And one day the switch in her brain flipped and she knew her addition facts better than me. So, I don't have any advice, per se. Just encouragement that she will get it eventually! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5LittleMonkeys Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 No advice from me either just our story to let you know I'm right there with you. My dd11 can't retain her facts. We stopped math at one point last year and worked on just x facts for 2 months. She was sooo upset about getting behind in math. She would go through the flash cards just fine one day but when it came to recalling the facts while actually doing math computations she just couldn't remember them. I finally gave up and let her use a times table chart. Once I quit putting so much importance on her remembering the facts we got through math so much more easily. She's moved onto MUS Epsilon this year and is breezing through the lessons. I have noticed that she uses the chart less and less. I don't even mention it anymore. I think I was making her feel like a failure in math just because she couldn't remember the facts. She used to tell everyone that she HATED math but just a couple of days ago she asked me if she could do another practice page in math because it was fun! :svengo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lollie010 Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 Ok Jenn--its official you are amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolally Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 We had a tough time with one of our kids, and he finally caught on with this: Pictures Teach Teach the Times Tables with pictures, stories, and activities Buy the book... . It tells a story with a picture to remind them of the math fact. There were so many samples on the website you might find you don't even need the book to get up to speed. www.multiplication.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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