OhM Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 My dd's belong to a large 4-H club run by a public school teacher (who is also my girl scout co-leader) and a pastor who prides herself on her work with children. Back in April, when the club started up for the year, elections were held. My oldest dd ran against a friend of hers, who is a year older than her (and the pastor-leader's daughter) for president. She was very excited about finding ways to help the many new, young members learn about presenting projects from the older, more experienced members, and about having a fun club this year. She discussed with me her ideas for her "speech" before the election, and I was pleased with her enthusiasm and ideas. I didn't stay for the elections, but came back at the end of the meeting. I was mildly surprised that she hadn't won president since many of the younger kids know and like her and not that many knew the other girl running, since she doesn't interact with them very much. Later that night, dd told me she had a strong suspicion that the other girl had been "selected, not elected" (not her words:D) because of some things that were said out loud and some side conversations that took place between the parents counting votes and the pastor-leader. We didn't have any other proof than her gut feeling, but because I know of several other stunts like this that they'd pulled in the past, I couldn't honestly reassure her that they wouldn't have done something that dishonest. Fastforward to tonight's meeting. In the course of conversation, another friend of dd's lets it slip that she heard the conversation when it was decided that even though dd had won the vote count, the other girl was going to be president. Now we've had this gut feeling independently confirmed by someone else. And my stomach just hurts. I was happy with letting it lie, and making sure I was present for any elections in the future, but I feel like something needs to be said, even if it's only to let them know that I know, and think it stinks! So I'm half looking for commiseration over an unfair event that I wish I had been able to prevent, and advice on what to do with this knowledge now. I think both women would indignantly deny that anything happened. I have used this as a learning experience for my two dd's. None of us feel we can trust what they say now, since they've proven themselves dishonest. I think it's been a real eye-opener for dd's to see the results of breaking someone's trust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawana Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Wow. I'm not sure that I can add anything of value here, but I would be furious and sad to learn that something so deceptive had been perpetuated to the disadvantage of one of my dc. If they had already selected a president, why go through the pretense of an election? I would not be able to work with the adult leaders until this had been discussed and explained. As a nonconfrontational person, it would feel awkward, but I would still feel the need to address the situation with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 I am an Ohio 4-H advisor and I am sorry to hear that you are having such problems. The tone of each club is greatly influenced by the leadership, and unfortunately, sometimes the leadership is not worthy of the respect and trust given. Again, I appologise on behalf of the 4-H organization. This is certainly not the way we are trained to lead a club. That said, as a mom I think you need to seek a different club. Regarding whether to say anything or not to the ones who cheated and lied, I would say no. What good do you really think would come of it other than allowing you to vent? They wouldn't change, and as you mentioned would most likely deny it all, which would place others in the position of having to decide whether YOU were a liar. Your dd wouldn't get this year back, nor could anything you might say erase her unpleasant experience. So I wouldn't say anything to them. However, I would contact your Extension Service 4-H agent and explain the whole story to that person. Not to force them to do anything, but to let them know what is going on and that if problems arise in the future, that will not have been the first time they were implicated in dishonesty. If either of the leaders contact you about your decision to change clubs, I would calmly tell them that you and your dd had been hearing comments regarding conversations to the effect that even though your dd got the most votes that the other girl was selected to be president. And that neither of you felt the same enthusiasm about the current club as a result and would rather start anew somewhere else. Don't accuse, argue, or drag witnesses into it. Just state your case as fact and move on. There may well be another 4-H club out there that could really benefit from your dd's interest in mentoring new members. Or start one yourself. I did. It only takes 4 members here in my county. We now have around 25-30 homeschooled kids in our club and it is a great experience for all involved. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Other girl's presidency won't mean much if your daughter is president by action and popular support. The other kids will know and act accordingly, I would think. The leaders deserve a slap in the ear though. Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 I would feel like I needed to tell them. I would approach it like this: Ask to talk with both of them and say that you've now heard two different girls remark that on the election they heard " ____quote it____" Then stop. Let them respond. You might want to watch some Utubes of Janine Driver and body language, specifically detecting lying. If you decide they are lying, then you don't have to confront it directly, but you'll know and they'll know that you know. You can choose any option that you like at that point--you'll have the high road whether you stay, join another 4 H group, etc. You obviously have a lovely daughter for her to have overheard what she did and continue on with a decent attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 I haven't read my Robert's Rules of Order in quite some time, but I do believe that if any member believes a vote to have a questionable outcome, an open ballot revote may be motioned for and conducted. If your dd has a couple of friends who are willing to stand up on this issue, it would be a good opportunity for this student-governed group to set a proper example for their sponsors. So sorry for your daughter. I also feel badly for the other girl, she's probably got a clue about what happened, I wonder how she feels about it. And the rest of the kids.... I'm guessing the Kid News Network is abuzz, they're no dummies. This is how respect is lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katemary63 Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 This is horrible. I am so sorry for your daughter. I'm not saying it would be the best thing to do, but I, personally, would have to confront them. I would just have to do it. And then I'd leave the club after reporting it to the county extension agent. Sad, sad situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Wow, what an awful situation. There is just no way to really fix that--the trust is gone. I like what hillfarm says, but I think I might have to say something. :mad: Your poor daughter, how icky for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 That is just wrong. And what a horrible example to set to the kids about honesty and democracy. I think I would say something too. If the leaders dispute it or won't listen to you, I'd look for another club. Ugh, what a horrid situation for you. I'd be furious too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 If there is a confrontation with the leaders will you still be able to work with the co-leader? (Actually knowing what you now know can you still work with her without bringing it out in the open?) The pastor? Is she your pastor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhM Posted June 25, 2010 Author Share Posted June 25, 2010 Thanks, Hillfarm. I do know that 4-H as a whole is a fantastic organization, and in spite of this, the girls have had a pretty good year so far. I do think I need to confront them. I like Laurie's approach. I'm just so bad at doing those things without getting emotional. And Jean, I think it would hurt the relationship w/my GS co-leader. (Actually, it already has because I'm nursing this suspicion.) But it's because of the relationship and knowledge I have of her that I wasn't able to assure my dd's that they must have misunderstood, IYKWIM. And not my pastor - and this kind of behavior is one of the reasons why, IYKWIM again.;) Thanks, everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remudamom Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 I'd call them on it. Loudly and publicly. Why should they get away with their deceit and cheating? Why would you let them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MO Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 but isn't there a recourse for challenging a vote? Could you check the rule book? Kids talk....if your daughter got the popular vote, the kids would probably all suspect that something is up. They would learn much from how you and other adults handle this situation....uh...no pressure intended there!:001_smile: Hope it all works out well and kudos to you and your dd for taking the high road. Blessings, Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ourjourneys Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 I do not like to confront issues like this either because of the conflict, however, when it comes to my children and teaching them honesty I think I would have to. I think I would just open a discussion about the votes and see if the voting sheets are available to see. You could mention that you just want to set your daughter clear on the count since she was disappointed. Then you could explain your feelings more. I think they will always smirk behind you when you are around during elections, but you will be showing a strength that they obviously do not have. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Other girl's presidency won't mean much if your daughter is president by action and popular support. The other kids will know and act accordingly, I would think. The leaders deserve a slap in the ear though. Rosie :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grace'smom Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 If you confront them, they may be less likely to do this again to someone else in the future. Hopefully, they will look more critically at their own actions and show more integrity in the future. Because no matter what they try to say, you will be creating a situation in which they will be forced to ask themselves "am I acting in accordance with what I believe as a good person" and they may not like the answer. They may act self-righteous, etc., but on the inside they will HAVE to go through that process. If they go through that process and still don't feel guilty then there's nothing you can do for them anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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