s/o man up... what if your dd is a huge tomboy?

[stripe]

Well, how about "ninny"?

 

Something about "sissy" suggests helpless/whiny/self-centered, whereas "tomboy" implies someone who is more daring (my dictionary review turned up a rather benign definition of "tomboy" involving being energetic and perhaps sporty). I think that's why a sissy (of either sex) seems less appealing. However, someone like Sherlock Holmes was both vaguely effeminate and daring, so there we are.

[Rosie_0801]

I wondered if the problem was that people are thinking of tomboy and <insert your word that means sissy boy> as opposites when they aren't. On the surface it 'boy who acts girly' and 'girl who acts boyish' look like simple opposites but they are far more complex than that.

 

Rosie

[stripe]

Especially if our context is

man = strong, intelligent creature who can do anything!

woman = quiet weakling with no capacity for thought or action

 

So then a girl who emulates the excitement of masculinity seems rather, well, genius, whereas a boy who relegates himself to a life of quiet domestic insanity looks deranged beyond belief.

[Saille]

I wondered if the problem was that people are thinking of tomboy and <insert your word that means sissy boy> as opposites when they aren't. On the surface it 'boy who acts girly' and 'girl who acts boyish' look like simple opposites but they are far more complex than that.

 

Rosie

 

Well...hmm. Assuming that there are behaviors we dislike in either gender, can you explain that a bit further? At first, I was inclined to agree with smrtmama that homos*xuality was the elephant in the room, but it seems to me that if that were the issue, tomboyishness would be considered "butch", and equally undesirable. Plus, I'd like to believe that the stereotypes of butch and effeminate are easy to identify as broad generalizations of gay folk and are, as such, flawed.

[Corraleno]

Well...hmm. Assuming that there are behaviors we dislike in either gender, can you explain that a bit further? At first, I was inclined to agree with smrtmama that homos*xuality was the elephant in the room, but it seems to me that if that were the issue, tomboyishness would be considered "butch", and equally undesirable. Plus, I'd like to believe that the stereotypes of butch and effeminate are easy to identify as broad generalizations of gay folk and are, as such, flawed.

The reason "tomboys" aren't bullied nearly as much as "sissy boys" are is because they are not easy targets. OTOH, boys who are unlikely/unwilling/unable to fight back are easy targets, so bullying them becomes an easy way for other boys to prove that they're not sissies. The cheapest, easiest way to prove to other men and boys that you're not a f*gg*t is to call someone else a f*gg*t. Yet when I look back at my HS years, the boys who were bullied and beat up and called f*gg*ts were mostly kids who, today, would be diagnosed with Asberger's or SPD or some other spectrumy issue. Or they were just small and not athletic, or wore glasses, or were socially awkward. So they were used for target practice by morons who thought picking on them made them look manly.

 

The idea that picking on kids like that, to "toughen them up for the real world," is somehow doing them a favor just makes me ill.

 

Jackie

[Rosie_0801]

Well...hmm. Assuming that there are behaviors we dislike in either gender, can you explain that a bit further? At first, I was inclined to agree with smrtmama that homos*xuality was the elephant in the room, but it seems to me that if that were the issue, tomboyishness would be considered "butch", and equally undesirable. Plus, I'd like to believe that the stereotypes of butch and effeminate are easy to identify as broad generalizations of gay folk and are, as such, flawed.

 

I didn't write that well, did I? I more mean that people are treating it like a black and white issue, as though you are either feminine (girly) or a tomboy (not feminine.) Or as though you are a "real boy" (masculine) or you are a whimpy mamma's boy. There's a whole sliding scale and it's really the extremes we object to, but we seem to be generalising as though there isn't a whole lot of grey in the middle. And using one gender to describe the other isn't helpful. A female shotput champion isn't any less female than a beauty pageant entrant. A male who spends his spare time knitting isn't any less male than a guy who spends his restoring motorbikes.

 

I expect most of us would agree that we don't want our daughters to be the stereotypical butch man hater, and we don't want them to be eyelash fluttering, deferential ninnies who couldn't bring herself to disagree with a man even if it was her pet topic. Fortunately, there is a lot of room in between. There is room for girls to be the type who don't like getting their hands dirty. There is room for girls who prefer to have been doing something that results in dirt under their nails and wouldn't know a mascara if it fell down their top. There is room for girls who play soccer then put on fake nails and heels to go to the celebratory after party.

 

I expect most of us would agree that we don't want our sons to be macho boys who are too "manly" to buy flowers for their grandma, and we don't want them to so shy and retiring that they would run to mamma while their own sibling being beaten up by the neighbourhood thug instead of pulling the kid off. In between those two undesirable extremes is a whole lot of things a boy can do. I know male dressmakers. They aren't "girly". I know a male weaver. He isn't "girly". I've known male historians. They aren't girly. I've known plenty of weedy, geeky role player guys too. Most of them aren't wimpy mammas boys either. My brother is asexual and often says "I'm such a chick!" but he really isn't effeminate. My kids' godfather is gay, and so was one of our Auslan teachers. Neither of them are "girly" and gay is stereotypically as non-masculine as a man can get.

 

Rosie

[pqr]

The reason "tomboys" aren't bullied nearly as much as "sissy boys" are is because they are not easy targets.

 

True, the same reason the PETA will protest a fur shop and challenge the patrons there but I have yet to see them go after a biker gang.

 

Personally I always liked tomboys as long as they retained a feminine side, which generally they did.

Edited May 29, 2010 by pqr

[Saille]

The reason "tomboys" aren't bullied nearly as much as "sissy boys" are is because they are not easy targets. OTOH, boys who are unlikely/unwilling/unable to fight back are easy targets, so bullying them becomes an easy way for other boys to prove that they're not sissies. The cheapest, easiest way to prove to other men and boys that you're not a f*gg*t is to call someone else a f*gg*t. Yet when I look back at my HS years, the boys who were bullied and beat up and called f*gg*ts were mostly kids who, today, would be diagnosed with Asberger's or SPD or some other spectrumy issue. Or they were just small and not athletic, or wore glasses, or were socially awkward. So they were used for target practice by morons who thought picking on them made them look manly.

 

The idea that picking on kids like that, to "toughen them up for the real world," is somehow doing them a favor just makes me ill.

 

Jackie

 

Well, yes, and also, what is the reasoning behind making them (and their parents) a target on the boards?

[Saille]

I didn't write that well, did I? I more mean that people are treating it like a black and white issue, as though you are either feminine (girly) or a tomboy (not feminine.) Or as though you are a "real boy" (masculine) or you are a whimpy mamma's boy. There's a whole sliding scale and it's really the extremes we object to, but we seem to be generalising as though there isn't a whole lot of grey in the middle. And using one gender to describe the other isn't helpful. A female shotput champion isn't any less female than a beauty pageant entrant. A male who spends his spare time knitting isn't any less male than a guy who spends his restoring motorbikes.

 

I expect most of us would agree that we don't want our daughters to be the stereotypical butch man hater, and we don't want them to be eyelash fluttering, deferential ninnies who couldn't bring herself to disagree with a man even if it was her pet topic. Fortunately, there is a lot of room in between. There is room for girls to be the type who don't like getting their hands dirty. There is room for girls who prefer to have been doing something that results in dirt under their nails and wouldn't know a mascara if it fell down their top. There is room for girls who play soccer then put on fake nails and heels to go to the celebratory after party.

 

I expect most of us would agree that we don't want our sons to be macho boys who are too "manly" to buy flowers for their grandma, and we don't want them to so shy and retiring that they would run to mamma while their own sibling being beaten up by the neighbourhood thug instead of pulling the kid off. In between those two undesirable extremes is a whole lot of things a boy can do. I know male dressmakers. They aren't "girly". I know a male weaver. He isn't "girly". I've known male historians. They aren't girly. I've known plenty of weedy, geeky role player guys too. Most of them aren't wimpy mammas boys either. My brother is asexual and often says "I'm such a chick!" but he really isn't effeminate. My kids' godfather is gay, and so was one of our Auslan teachers. Neither of them are "girly" and gay is stereotypically as non-masculine as a man can get.

 

Rosie

 

OK, that clarifies a lot. ITA with that post. I think that's what I'm having trouble with...I'm getting the message that some of the things you describe above would be wrong in the eyes of some of the original posters (also described as effeminite), and that parents who would allow, or even foster some of those talents/interests/aspirations are "disgusting" to said posters. I think that's pretty strong wording, and that it's disrespectful of other parents' considered opinions on parenting and gender roles. In that context, I see it as analogous to saying that those who are using TODKAH are "disgusting".

[lionfamily1999]

True, the same reason the PETA will protest a fur shop and challenge the patrons there but I have yet to see them go after a biker gang.

 

Personally I always liked tomboys as long as they remained a feminine side, which generally they did.

That's something I'd like to see.

[Rosie_0801]

Well, yes, and also, what is the reasoning behind making them (and their parents) a target on the boards?

 

Maybe because we're all in this homeschooling, parenting gig because we want to do the best for our kids, and assume everyone else is here because they want to do the best for their kids. Under those circumstances, people saying "Uh, X happens and I don't think it's for the best, so watch out it doesn't happen to you!" isn't a surprising thing. I have only seen one post recently where anyone said that someone specific *was* seriously buggering up their kid. There could have been more between me reading and the thread being deleted, of course. The rest of the posts were more along the lines of "you sound like you're handling this badly" at worst. I realise some people are more sensitive than others and that can sound like a personal attack stating they are dreadful people who haven't a chance of success, but that's the listeners' issues talking.

 

Rosie

[Rosie_0801]

OK, that clarifies a lot. ITA with that post. I think that's what I'm having trouble with...I'm getting the message that some of the things you describe above would be wrong in the eyes of some of the original posters (also described as effeminite), and that parents who would allow, or even foster some of those talents/interests/aspirations are "disgusting" to said posters.

 

I don't think anyone really thinks quiet and studious makes a boy a wuss. They might look to be a likely target but someone who tries anything will find they are wrong, unless they are too thick to notice they are being taught a lesson. A boy built like a brick wall doesn't look like a wuss, but that doesn't mean he isn't. Looking like a wuss means you will attract trouble so there is small wonder a parent, especially a dad, would rather some of their boys kept some of their interests and personality quirks out of sight in public. I don't imagine I'd be encouraging my son to take his needlework to work on while he's out and about. Depending on how he turns out socially, I might even forbid it because encouraging other people to victimise you is not good practise. Now if he's at home or at the SCA, anyone who picked on him for it would be put in their place. The world isnt' always fair, but there are certain places where a person should be able to chill and do their own thing.

 

 

Rosie

[MicheleinMN]

Wow! We never made the connection with homeschooling. :confused: We just thought that I raised b*tchy girls because the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. :tongue_smilie: Luckily, as a natural consequence they have all found compliant men so far.

 

ROFLOL! My dh agrees with this idea! :lol:

[nmoira]

I wondered if the problem was that people are thinking of tomboy and <insert your word that means sissy boy> as opposites when they aren't. On the surface it 'boy who acts girly' and 'girl who acts boyish' look like simple opposites but they are far more complex than that.

My girls eschew "traditional," stereotypical gender roles which don't involve cleavers.

 

:tongue_smilie:

[justamouse]

I was a tomboy and I am raising 3 tomboys and one princess. That last one will turn, they always do.

[justamouse]

Yes, if we didn't have this convenient double standard, some people would be telling us that homeschooling mothers raise girls who are too strong, too opinionated, too forceful, too independent. We're just wrecking these girls! They need to be soft & melty until they meet a strong manly dude to prop them up & lead them properly.

 

Gah, these strong b*tchy women. Can't stand 'em. Right up there with those sissy guys.

 

:001_rolleyes:

 

 

:lol::lol:

 

So what if she is? So what if my daughter has masculine traits or my son has feminine ones? I don't think gender is a binary condition and as such, don't expect my children to exhibit traits that are only socially-designated as masculine or feminine.

 

Of course, I'm also one of those horrible sissifying moms who wouldn't be upset if her children were gay, trans, or voted Democrat. ;)

 

 

Also, once again, I profess my undying e-love for Daisy and all her wonderment. <3 you, Daisy!

 

You forgot sissifying moms eat arugula. Arugula is a strictly Democrat veggie, and grows our children gay, trans and most definitely sissified. (rocket for those over the pond)

[Joker]

Wow - I can't believe my thread is still going. I guess I have the answer I was expecting. Noone really worries / cares about a tomboy. It's fine and is accepted. I don't really believe there is a homeschool connection either, but I come from a family of teachers and I think they look for reasons that what I do is wrong.

 

Mary (who would have responded earlier to her own thread but her computer was attacked by a nasty virus and crashed - she is typing this from her brand new laptop :001_smile:)

[stripe]

I don't think anyone really thinks quiet and studious makes a boy a wuss.

I was never a teenaged boy, but I sort of think this is not always the case, that boys can and do get picked on for this.

 

I think this becomes immediately apparent if we compare and contrast the stereotypical view of Asians as being feminine and Africans as being masculine. Compare views of Asian / Asian American / other members of the Asian diaspora MEN with Asian (etc) WOMEN. The men are stereotypically considered effeminate / not masculiune, whereas the women are considered desirable (because they are supposed to be ultra-female). And also for women from the African diaspora vs. men. The men are stereotypically seen as ultra-manly (to the point of being animalistic) whereas the women are seen as so strong as to be difficult (or something).

 

I am not saying this based on my own views on the topic.

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/psy457_lamyiu/stereotypes_and_dating_attitudes_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_fetish

http://goldsea.com/Text/index.php?id=2692

http://brownsugar28.com/2009/04/29/african-american-dating-interracial-dating-racial-stereotypes-hurting-black-women/

[Saille]

Mary, between the viruses and the water flowing everywhere, y'all are making me very nervous for my own computers! :001_huh:

 

I wish some other folks would respond. rosie has been very kind and straightforward, but I've still got the impression that there are rootin' tootin' mamas here who have a bias in favor of girls breaking out of stereotypical gender roles, and a bias against boys doing the same.

[IsabelC]

So what if she is? So what if my daughter has masculine traits or my son has feminine ones? I don't think gender is a binary condition and as such, don't expect my children to exhibit traits that are only socially-designated as masculine or feminine.

^^^ Yeah that ^^^

 

 

Of course, I'm also one of those horrible sissifying moms who wouldn't be upset if her children were gay, trans, or voted Democrat. ;)

I'm even worse than that. I'm one of those mothers who lets her son wear pink and doesn't select gendered toys :001_huh:

[lionfamily1999]

I was never a teenaged boy, but I sort of think this is not always the case, that boys can and do get picked on for this.

 

I think this becomes immediately apparent if we compare and contrast the stereotypical view of Asians as being feminine and Africans as being masculine. Compare views of Asian / Asian American / other members of the Asian diaspora MEN with Asian (etc) WOMEN. The men are stereotypically considered effeminate / not masculiune, whereas the women are considered desirable (because they are supposed to be ultra-female). And also for women from the African diaspora vs. men. The men are stereotypically seen as ultra-manly (to the point of being animalistic) whereas the women are seen as so strong as to be difficult (or something).

 

I am not saying this based on my own views on the topic.

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/psy457_lamyiu/stereotypes_and_dating_attitudes_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_fetish

http://goldsea.com/Text/index.php?id=2692

http://brownsugar28.com/2009/04/29/african-american-dating-interracial-dating-racial-stereotypes-hurting-black-women/

Perhaps Rosie and I are both thinking the "strong, silent type" or "the poet." Let's face it, though, even things like that are subject to so much personal opinion it would be hard to narrow it down. This is trying to assign a particular characteristic with a broad swath of people. I have known meat heads that were sissies. Just because they could plow down a football field (or chug beers and cheer on their favorite driver) didn't mean they weren't sissies. If anything sissiness in meat heads is even more disturbing (imo).

[Rosie_0801]

I was never a teenaged boy, but I sort of think this is not always the case, that boys can and do get picked on for this.

 

 

Yeah, that's why I was making the distinction between someone who looks like a wuss from the outside and someone who is wussy (or weak, or a victim, or has been trodden on so many times they can't see any way out, etc) on the inside. I have no idea whether anyone else sees a distinction like this or not but that's how I view it. It seems to me, though, that people get picked on because they look like wusses. That person might well behave like one when push comes to shove. That often happens! That person might not behave like one, when push comes to shove. In the first case, the bully will keep coming back. In the second case, the next problem will be with a new bully, because the first one will have learned better.

 

You may or may not grow out of looking wussy. The weedy looking boy might develop some muscle, or he might stay weedy. Whether you stay wussy on the inside depends a lot on who is willing to guide you out of that and into confidence. I haven't met many who've looked like lost causes on that score. I went to school with a boy who by the usual checklist (small, quiet, bookish, yadda yadda) would have been a target of bullying, but he never was. Why? He exuded such an air of confidence. It wasn't bravado. If it was, he'd have been picked on for being up himself. It was confidence. Real confidence. Something none of the rest of us had, and no one was going to mess with it!

 

Rosie

[lovemyboys]

Well, yanno, I would never gone there, but a senior poster assured us that homeschooling mamas were wrecking boys & turning 'em into sissies. ERGO - homeschooling mamas are responsible for those shrewish girls too.

 

Should I mention the homeschool moms who don't bother teaching their teen girls higher math since they won't be using it anyway?

[lovemyboys]

Well, I was a huge tomboy. I was also a cheerleader and homecoming queen. (go ahead, laugh, it's true). Debutante, sorority gal. Can't tomboys be feminine as easily as quiet boys can be masculine? Yes? No?

 

Love this!!!

 

I love multi-faceted people. Much more interesting to be around.

 

Fwiw I have a quiet manly guy who still continues to surprise me after all these years. I'd vote a definite yes. Still waters run deep and all that.

[Joker]

My little brother was picked on a lot around his junior high years because of his size and close relationship with family. Finally, one day he had enough and fought back. He was never picked on again by school friends - his size and family relationship never changed though. I would agree that the stigma has more to do with what can be seen.

[kmacnchs]

My little brother was picked on a lot around his junior high years because of his size and close relationship with family. Finally, one day he had enough and fought back. He was never picked on again by school friends - his size and family relationship never changed though. I would agree that the stigma has more to do with what can be seen.

 

My dh has always been quiet, very smart, LOVES and is devoted to his family (oldest of 5). However, he was also 6 ft, 250lbs in HS and played football and did wrestling (very well). Even though he never cursed or told nasty jokes (he was (and still is) a strong Christian) like every other guy, no one gave him a hard time. Unfortunately, looks have a lot to do with how one is treated... The only time he ever got physical with anyone in HS is when someone touched and threatened to hurt one of his cameras. He threw him out the window. He's a photographer, what can I say...