Is writing the homeschooling "weak spot"?

[LizzyBee]

I guess then we disagree on what is developmentally appropriate?

 

Maybe. I think it depends on the child, and many ps teachers do not make allowances for that. My oldest dd was writing and illustrating her own stories in kindergarten. My 2nd dd was utterly incapable of that, so her K teacher decided she was lazy. Is that really fair?

[katemary63]

I'd be willing to say writing is a weakness everywhere! r...

 

:iagree:I was a non-traditional studet many years ago in college, age 28 with three kids at home and taking freshman level classes. Well, I joined a study group for Philosophy 101. As the writing assignments were handed out, we'd get together and read each other's papers, offering advice and editing. OMG!!! These kids couldn't write worth CR*P! I was astonished. They ended up using me as a writing tutor since so many of them were getting bad grades on their papers. They couldn't even put together a cohesive paragraph, let alone the whole paper. Sometimes I actually thought that what they gave me was a joke until I looked up and saw by their eyes that they were dead serious and this atrocious thing I'd just read was what they were actually going to hand in. It was disgraceful. Many people coming out of public schools can't write worth beans and that's been going on for at least 20 years. BTW: We are talking an area that was considered one of the best in the state for school quality in WI. These were kids with scholarships.

[Cindyg]

I'm a good writer, and my husband is a good writer. We have both written professionally. We chose a serious writing curriculum, and we've followed it since first grade. (DS is now in the sixth grade.)

 

DS has been through the writing process (planning, drafting, revising, editing, publish) dozens of times over many types of writing assignments with one-on-one coaching (from me). (This doesn't take anywhere near 3-5 hours a week, as mentioned in the OP.)

 

Still, my ds can't yet write an impressive or even correct paper totally independently yet. But I'm confident that the proper foundation is being laid, and I'm confident that a decent writer will bloom out of all this.

 

If your public school is giving you the impression that their kindergarteners or first graders are producing correct or even creative compositions or that they can concentrate on writing for hours at a time, I'd be a bit skeptical.

 

Yes, I do think all of our educational institutions (not just public schools, and not just home schools) are producing way too many poor writers.

[katemary63]

I'm a good writer, and my husband is a good writer. We have both written professionally. We chose a serious writing curriculum, and we've followed it since first grade. (DS is now in the sixth grade.)

 

DS has been through the writing process (planning, drafting, revising, editing, publish) dozens of times over many types of writing assignments with one-on-one coaching (from me). (This doesn't take anywhere near 3-5 hours a week, as mentioned in the OP.)

 

Still, my ds can't yet write an impressive or even correct paper totally independently yet. But I'm confident that the proper foundation is being laid, and I'm confident that a decent writer will bloom out of all this.

 

If your public school is giving you the impression that their kindergarteners or first graders are producing correct or even creative compositions or that they can concentrate on writing for hours at a time, I'd be a bit skeptical.

 

Yes, I do think all of our educational institutions (not just public schools, and not just home schools) are producing way too many poor writers.

 

Please! Share which curriculum! Are you saying you really like it and think it is doing the job you hoped it would?

[LibrarianMom]

In K and 1st grade, for the most part our daughter had sentence prompts to finish. Ex. "If I was president of the U.S.,". They did these sentences often but not on a weekly basis. This year, in 2nd grade, the writing expectation has increased quite a bit. Her class has a weekly paragraph on an assigned topic such as their best gift, best birthday, favorite place, favorite animal, etc. They write at least a five paragraph sentence (topic sentence, four supporting sentences, and conclusion). They start with getting their ideas down and the teacher helps with spelling and grammar and then they do a final copy later in the week. Early on in the year, her teacher encouraged her to write more "grown-up" sentences and some of the sentences have been fairly complex.

 

Each week their teacher sends all of the paragraphs to the local newspaper where the best paragraphs from a number of schools are selected for publication. So far, dd has had the most published of anyone in her class. However, we were very proud when she wrote a paragraph about her best friend, Jesus. Her well-written paragraph, including titles of Jesus and references to miracles, hung in her ps hallway all week for everyone to read.

[Mesa]

Please! Share which curriculum! Are you saying you really like it and think it is doing the job you hoped it would?

 

Yes, please share!

[Peela]

I woudl also agree that writing is a general weakness, but I have heard SWB talk on how it can also be a weakness in homescholing communities. I havent had the experience to know.

 

I do love SWB's approach to writing. I would only add to it that a creative approach can help fluency in even a very writing reluctant writer, and I have found that my dyslexic writer has benefited from writing which does draw on his imagination- we did free writing for a year or two- but, I also feel it is a very diferent inner process from the other types of writing he has done- copywork, dictation, narrations, outlining etc. The creative writing did give him a sense of "authorship" and pride in his writing which the other types fo writing didnt ive him. BUt I think both are important and teh school tend to focus on more creative writing.

 

In Australia we just don't learn to write - the process is not pulled apart for us in schools- we are just expected to rise to the expectation after repeated creative exercises in younger years. For a natural writer- great, they will pick it up anyway- but even then, its hard to know what you did wrong when you get a low mark on your assignment. For a lot of people- they just never really know.

I have learned so much from SWB and homeschooling.

[Cindyg]

We chose a serious writing curriculum...

 

Please! Share which curriculum! Are you saying you really like it and think it is doing the job you hoped it would?

 

Sorry. It's nothing exotic -- BJUP. I do think it's a good writing program, and I think a decent writer will emerge from it in time. (Not everyone is going to be a gifted writer, but everyone can master the basics in time.)

 

My son started as a reluctant writer. The first time the video teacher assigned a one-sentence "compostion" in first grade (with the option of coloring instead), my son ran screaming out of the room! Literally! It was like homeschool was ruined! But now in 6th grade, I'm pleased with where he is.

 

Here's a recent historical fiction he wrote (for a 6th grade school assignment). I'm not presenting this as a stellar example, just an example. And, yes, I coached him on this, but I didn't do it for him.

 

----------------

 

The Colton family just came through immigration and were now officially in the crowds of America. Eleven-year old Travis could only think of one thing: “Can I have a puppy?”

 

“No,” says his mom. “We’re too busy right now for something like a puppy.”

 

Out of the corner of his eye, Travis saw an old man drop some papers. Immediately, he ran over and handed the dropped papers back to the man.

 

“Oh, thank you!” said the old man. “Those were important.” Suddenly, Travis’s parents came running up. “Oh, hello,” says the old man. “You must be this kind boy’s parents. This young man just handed me some critical papers I had dropped. “I assume you just arrived here?”

 

“Yes,” said Travis’s father, “We just arrived.”

 

“Are you meeting someone here?” the man asked.

 

“No, are you?” replied Travis’s mother.

 

“Yes, I’m meeting my son and his wife. To repay you for your kindness, why don’t you join me for dinner at their house tonight?”

 

“Oh, thank you,” said Travis’s mother, “We didn’t have anywhere to stay tonight, and that would be very nice of you.”

 

Later that night after supper, the son, Mr. Taylor, said to Travis, “Travis, why don’t you come out to the barn? I have something I’d like to show you.”

 

As Travis and the young man walk into the barn, Travis said, “Oh!” and there in a large crate was litter of tiny, white and fluffy puppies.

 

“These puppies are just old enough to leave their mom. Would you like to have one?”

 

“Really?! Would I! Yes! I would love a puppy!”

 

The man said, “I heard you talking about that earlier, and I already asked your parents; and they said it was OK for you to have one of these puppies. Would you like to pick one out?”

 

With much excitement, Travis said, “I’ll take that one that’s licking its paw.”

 

The man picked up the fat puppy, held him at eye level, and said, “Pup, are you ready to start the adventure of a lifetime?” And with that, he handed the squirming puppy over to Travis.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Cindyg

[kathkath]

K teacher decided she was lazy. Is that really fair?

 

nope.

that is entirely different.

[MeganW]

Yes, but to me, this is a different type of project. This example does not force kids to come up with original content at the same time as mastering the skill of just "getting it down on paper" in sensory-motor planning, mechanics, spelling, etc.

 

The issue I have with "Writer's Workshop" format is that too often the projects force kids to do two skills at once (writing it all down on paper and creating original content) before they are ready. SWB's plan allows students the time to master the mechanics of language before asking them to come up with original material.

 

I think your project sounds wonderful, and would be a great way to just master the early basics of writing with spelling, grammar and punctuation as well as fitting right in with the WTM method of teaching writing.

 

I'm running into the opposite extreme, but let me just throw this out there. I have one child who writes prolifically - pages and pages every day. We still have "quiet time" at our house every afternoon, and she writes almost the whole time. She asks me EVERY DAY to come up with some sort of silly prompt. It was fun in the beginning, but at this point, it's HARD to come up with original things! And she doesn't want "tell me about someone who loves you", she wants "what would happen if Cupid flew into a wall?". She writes and illustrates every day, and then wants to share after quiet time every day.

 

Interestingly, this is my only child who can't read! :)

 

This is not something I intituted, it's HER decision to do this. I do not correct spelling, capitalization, grammar, etc. - I've just let it be her fun hobby.

[Tigger]

 

* In general, do you think homeschoolers don't emphasize or practice writing skills as much as they should? As much as the public schools?

 

Well, the first thing to consider is - is the PS achieving a better outcome by high school graduation with their approach versus how many homeschoolers (a la WTM) here approach writing?

 

I have to agree with others who've noted that quantity does not equal quality. I've eased DS into writing and at this point, he can write a solid, grammatically correct sentence. He can bring together his thoughts and create an interesting, thought out paragraph too (although at this point, not required by me, that's on his own - he likes to create and illustrate stories - a new thing for him; before he'd draw all the pictures and just orally tell the story he laid out, now he wants to add text to it too....but I digress...

 

My end goal for DS isn't reams and reams of random thoughts and words, it is to write well, so step-by-step he's learning to do that by learning grammar, spellings, and how to bring his thoughts together to be able to do that in longer and longer writing assignments.

 

* Is having a 6, 7, or 8 year old write in a journal regularly an important thing? Could it be a bad thing, and if so, how?

Without adequate lessons to teach grammar and spelling, and good examples of well written material, I can see it being a problem down the road if the child is allowed to make mistakes without correction and/or guidance about how to improve their work.

 

This past Christmas I saw it first hand - how quantity doesn't necessarily mean quality. DS is 7, his best friend is 8 and she's in public school, a grade ahead of DS, so she's in our PS 3rd grade. They do massive amounts of writing and her dad has commented about how much she writes and loves to write and has asked if I'm worried because DS doesn't write nearly as much or as often. Well, the two of them were having a play day together and decided they wanted to write to Santa for Christmas, so I gave them paper and pens and they went off to make their lists. When they were done, they gave them to me and asked me to send them off to Santa.

 

I still have them....

 

DS wrote:

 

Dear Santa (forgot comma)

 

I hope you think I have been good this year. I wood (misspelled) really like and hope you will bring me: (correct use of the colon)

 

Cars Legos

Legos Airport

Legos fire bote (misspelled)

Helicopter

Spy glasses

Card board (compound word missed) rocket to color

Dont (contraction error) pop the pig

Angry Birds

Remote spy car

Tiger hat

 

Thank you!

 

From,

DS Name

 

His friend wrote:

 

Deer santa, (misspelled, capitalization error)

 

I hav (misspelled) ben (misspelled) very good this yeer (misspelled). Fore (misspelled) christmas (capitalization error) I wold like you to bring me: (correct use of colon)

 

Gitar (misspelled)

Hana (misspelled) montana doll (capitalization error)

art siplys (misspelled)

hare bowes (misspelled)

Amerikan gurl doll (misspelled, correct capitalization)

we games (misspelled, but wii is branded, so not troubling)

pirfekshun (misspelled)

monopolee (misspelled)

stuft animule (misspelled)

eez bak oven (misspelled)

 

Her Name

 

It took me a while to get the creative spelling of her list! But that's totally allowed - creative spelling - in her writing in school because she's writing. I don't know how she's expected to learn proper spelling? I was actually surprised by how almost everything she wrote was creative spelling - her dad brags that she reads at a sixth grade level.....yet she can't spell?

 

* If anybody knows more about it, can someone explain what the general approach to elementary school writing is in the schools? What is "writer's workshop" all about, and does anyone here do something like that at home?

 

From what DS's friend's dad has told me, they write daily in school, keep a journal of their writing and are encouraged to write, write, write all the time. I've seen her journal, there are no corrections within it, no second attempts to correct mistakes - she just writes and it's similar to the above - poor spelling and poor grammatical structure.

 

With DS I'm just going to continue with WWE and encourage him to write more as he builds the skills to write WELL - on his own, since he's seen his friends journals, he's started one, but he mostly creates stories in pictures, orally tells them to me, then starts to add his text to the pictures later, once he really has his story set-up. I love that he's motivated to do this on his own, but at this point, I wouldn't make him or expect him to be doing this kind of writing, especially not on a daily basis.

 

* Any other thoughts about learning writing skills, or what those skills "should" be as certain grade levels?

 

I think to write well, one needs to first learn the basics - grammar and spelling, as well as see and hear good writing as example for them to consider as they begin to write. That's why I really like WWE and the way it progresses, step-by-step.....and spelling is covered with AAS.

[mama2cntrykids]

Once again I'm jumping in late, but my ds11 was in ps for 2nd grade and the most "writing" they did was a daily journal where the teacher never corrected grammar OR spelling. Now we're hsing and he's in 5th grade. For *me* writing is an essantial for him. He does a good job, so I really expect a lot out of him.

 

That said, I have different expectations for his younger brother b/c there are other issues with him. We don't work on it like I do with my oldest ds. Mainly, for younger ds, it's an issue of just getting through the day at this point. We'll work on writing in later years when there's more maturity. Work ethic is what he needs right now.

 

Sorry, that was a little bit of a spin-off. For us, different kids, different expectations.

[Miss Marple]

I don't think the lack of writing skills is localized to the homeschool community. I have seen examples of writing by our boy scouts (public high school) and can tell you that they exhibit far worse writing ability than those in our homeschooling co-op. And I thought the students in the co-op were doing a poor job. The teachers at the public school have told me that they are not allowed to grade on grammar or structure. The student is supposed to be encouraged to "just write". Well, what's the point of writing something that is difficult to interpret?!? I don't get the "just write" thing - it's sort of like turning in homework but never getting it graded/critiqued but then being required to take a test over the material.

[joannqn]

Jumping in late and don't have time to read the whole thread, but this has been discussed before.

 

Forcing a child to do a lot of writing before they have other skills developed or before they are ready doesn't make a good writer. I don't even start writing until 4th grade (3rd for my son who begged to start early) yet somehow their writing skills seem to be superior to the writing samples I've seen for much older public school kids.

 

I think quality instruction when they are ready for it beats quantity any time.

[OLG]

Statistics show that 50% of kids entering college must take developmental courses including reading, writing and math. I was astounded at these numbers but they are there. These are public school kids and this is the reason kids either never complete even community college or take 4,5,6 years to complete cc. (Not talking 4 year schools because many of those are dropping remedial ed). In educating my own, I saw a clear link between reading and writing skills that emerged in high school when pressed to learn that old five paragraph essay.

 

That said, my own son struggled with writing a sentence. He had excellent grammar thanks to Voyages in English and excellent spelling skills. He could diagram like crazy and was reading 4-5 levels ahead of his age. What turned the corner for him was illustrating and writing in second grade. Art he loved. Explaining his art became the vehicle for getting words down on paper. It took a couple of months but then he 'got it' .

 

We did lots and lots of writing of book reports over the grammar school years and lots of looking at fine art and writing. Same for sciences. Writing became a part of each subject not something separate. Nearing high school he did Write@HOme workshops and a delightful book called Lingua Mater. Starting in 9th grade he wrote 2-3 five paragraph essays a week. Always just a first draft unless they were horrible and I always corrected them for grammar, sentence structure, spelling(typos), flow of ideas. He came to have confidence in his writing ability and could fire off essays with ease and they were good.

 

Placing into Honors English in college he was the best writer in the class and easily maxed his grade. We joke today about how he cried and cried over not being able to write a sentence!

 

Personally, I think learning to write takes time and not all kids reach that 'right' time at the same pace. But I think public schools fail the students by rewarding them for simply putting words on paper, Good writing requires good thinking! This is what TWTM is all about now isn't it? Teach them the mechanics, yes and show then where they can improve almost on a daily basis but also foster in then the ability to thinking logically, extrapolate, synthesize and create and then you will find good writing follows.

 

Not trying to sound like I am lecturing or an authority here. Just completely saddened at where public school has failed so, so many of our kids in these areas. Homeschoolers, I would like to think, do better than public schools!

[ma23peas]

Jumping in late and don't have time to read the whole thread, but this has been discussed before.

 

Forcing a child to do a lot of writing before they have other skills developed or before they are ready doesn't make a good writer. I don't even start writing until 4th grade (3rd for my son who begged to start early) yet somehow their writing skills seem to be superior to the writing samples I've seen for much older public school kids.

 

I think quality instruction when they are ready for it beats quantity any time.

 

I agree with this on the whole...

 

Two years ago, I was asked to lead writing classes at a local co-op...I accepted so that my 9th grade son would have the benefit if lit. Discussions and peer review for essays, group projects, etc. I have 35 students this year grades 6-12...the range of writing skills is all over the bell curve.

 

I had a 10th grader who scored perfect on the ACT writing and language section, a 6th grader who writes better than most my senior students - several who had horrific handwriting which nearly equalled their spelling, and one even wrote on the backside of the notebook paper ignoring the margins. Within one year of instruction, their writing became very focused and organized...

 

I think the main issue is that homeschooling parents just seem to let this subject go to the ditch more than others because they question their ability to assess their child's work. It is hard for a student to argue with his mom on a way to solve a square root, but very subjective to argue what makes a clear thesis.

[Susan in KY]

Well, I avoided it until late in grade 3 and 4, doing narration, dictation and copywork until then. I hit actual writing very lightly, and two years later have blossoming writers. They are doing well with minimal formal instruction and no tears. I would put them up against many publicly schooled ninth- and tenth-graders, and they are just wrapping up 5th and 6th grades. I'm not bragging here—in fact, they have a long way to go and are just starting Writing with Skill. My observations are more a matter of not having seen a lot of impressive writing coming out of the public schools.

[sewingmama]

Jumping in late and don't have time to read the whole thread, but this has been discussed before

 

Yes it has -this thread was started in 2010 :lol: