gender roles

[Orthodox6]

(below)

 

You know, it's 2010, and we really shouldn't have them anymore, right? Disagree with this.

 

But we do. And I don't think they'll ever go away. Agreeing. In some circles, traditional gender roles simply are being replaced by differing gender roles. Even claiming that an action is "gender neutral" is a gender role claim.

[Wheres Toto]

My DH would gladly stay home with the kids if I could make nearly the money he does. He already cooks dinner every night, he plays with the kids and watches them all the time for me to take a break or drive odd to dance. He would probably be at least as good as I am at the cleaning stuff (I'm not very good at it) although I'm probably slightly better at the organization. Mainly because he just wouldn't care.

 

Other than breastfeeding, I don't think there's anything I can do for the kids that DH can't do just as well (although with a slightly different style).

 

Although, I spent the first 11 years of my oldest dd's life working full time and doing 99% of childcare and housework - while I was still married to her dad - it was easier when I was a single mom. I wouldn't return to that for anything and thankfully dh is supportive of me staying home.

Edited April 14, 2010 by dottieanna29

[fairfarmhand]

I don't find that many people where I've lived as a SAHM (which I am not anymore) react that way. I've lived in Arizona (suburb of Phoenix) and Texas (suburb of Houston). Most reactions I've gotten were completely non-emotional and that being a SAHM was as valid a choice as not.

 

For many years, I was an outspoken advocate for SAHM. I now work *at* home, outside the home and am a full time student. All while homeschooling mine and others. Yes, it's busy and stressful. But one thing I've been challenged on is the assumptions I made as a SAHM about "what others were missing". I've learned that being challenged and fulfilled as a woman/human makes me a better mom and wife.

 

For my situation, it's a lot more complicated and productive than "a little money".

 

For us, with dh in a white collar position, with degrees and a measure of professional success, many, many men think that their wives should go out and do it all too.

 

Yet these are the same men complain that their wives are never "in the mood" so to speak. I am glad that you have a supportive community around you who value the role of at home parents. But I am seeing more and more men who think that this is not an option. They would rather have more toys and money than have their wives solely tending their children.

 

I do agree that women need outlets apart from their family. They need something so they do not fall apart when their last child leaves the nest. And they need to be able to feel valued for who they are not just what they do for the family.

 

My kids are finally getting old enough that I can do this. I'm taking some art classes that I've always wanted to do and I am loving it!

Additionally, I think a misperception out there is that SAHM's are stuck in a rut forever. Personally, when I had a houseful of toddlers and a breastfeeding infant, I could not have managed anything else. But as they have gotten older, I now have more options, and those are valid too.

[Wheres Toto]

I disagree. I think focusing on traditional gender roles often prevents individuals and couples from recognizing their true strengths and gifts and using those to solve the challenges they face.

 

I think what is needed (and I see this where I live) is an increased valuing of the work of home and family, whoever performs the work. Making a home, taking care of the people in it, and educating children are vital, and should be considered such.

:iagree: I don't think you can say one way is better for everyone or all couples. We all have different strengths and needs and the ideal situation would be if everyone felt comfortable doing what was best for the needs of the family, not necessarily what society thinks they should do.

[Joanne]

For us, with dh in a white collar position, with degrees and a measure of professional success, many, many men think that their wives should go out and do it all too.

 

Yet these are the same men complain that their wives are never "in the mood" so to speak. I am glad that you have a supportive community around you who value the role of at home parents. But I am seeing more and more men who think that this is not an option. They would rather have more toys and money than have their wives solely tending their children.

 

I do agree that women need outlets apart from their family. They need something so they do not fall apart when their last child leaves the nest. And they need to be able to feel valued for who they are not just what they do for the family.

 

My kids are finally getting old enough that I can do this. I'm taking some art classes that I've always wanted to do and I am loving it!

Additionally, I think a misperception out there is that SAHM's are stuck in a rut forever. Personally, when I had a houseful of toddlers and a breastfeeding infant, I could not have managed anything else. But as they have gotten older, I now have more options, and those are valid too.

 

I love your last 2 paragraphs! I had the same experience when mine were young and breastfeeding (which I did for years, not months).

 

I hope you are enjoying this new season where you can add other things and still meet the needs of your family at their ages. :)

[hornblower]

Anyone who has sons and daughters can tell you they are different in very basic ways from the day they are born.

.

 

I have one of each & that is not my experience. (Other than the fact that one would pee on me during diaper changes :D)

 

But then I'm proud to call myself a feminist.

[Jean in Newcastle]

We have pretty traditional roles, but dh taught ME to love shopping. If he misses his weekend swap meet fix he gets very distressed! He loves to come home with his "kill" and show the family (well, we usually go too but if we dont, we all have to gather around and congratulate him when he comes home, on his bargains :) ).

He is also very good at fixing things around the house and likes the house to be neat and tidy and will do a fair bit toward that. I havent managed to convince him yet that not bringing home so much STUFF would make it easier to keep the house tidy, but I am working on it.

He had a perfectionist mum who taught him to clean and to keep his stuff tidy. He hangs all his clothes except socks and underwear. He has more clothes than any man I know. He has to have his own bathroom. It's just best.

As far as taking care of the kids goes...its pretty traditionally split, though. I do 95% of it.

 

 

Your dh sounds very much like mine.:001_smile:

[Catherine]

I don't think that gender roles are the problem, so much as men's assumption (when it exists) that they should not have to assume the child rearing and household responsibilities. I love what I do, and I don't regret anything. But in point of fact, my career would not have suffered as much as it has if dh had been more willing to shoulder some household responsibilities. He wasn't.

 

If dh suddenly left, and I was destitute because of it, I'd be pretty angry. One of the pressures on traditional gender roles is a direct result of irresponsibility on the part of fathers. Our legal system finally recognizes that men should not be permitted to simply walk away from responsibility to their children, and in fact, their spouses who've been SAHMs for years.

 

I'd definitely call myself a feminist. I don't believe that women should all have careers or all stay at home. I believe we should have a fair shake whichever choice we make. But I believe that women have made huge strides in power because we can no longer be abandoned at will and left devastated. It's because we have choices now. In the past, women were far more at the mercy of immoral or unscrupulous husbands. Now, we can choose to leave and have at least some hope of supporting ourselves or finding a judge who will at least force a former spouse to do right by us financially. Not pretty, but it's a fact.

[MamaSheep]

I disagree. I think focusing on traditional gender roles often prevents individuals and couples from recognizing their true strengths and gifts and using those to solve the challenges they face.

 

I think what is needed (and I see this where I live) is an increased valuing of the work of home and family, whoever performs the work. Making a home, taking care of the people in it, and educating children are vital, and should be considered such.

 

:iagree: I don't think you can say one way is better for everyone or all couples. We all have different strengths and needs and the ideal situation would be if everyone felt comfortable doing what was best for the needs of the family, not necessarily what society thinks they should do.

 

It is possible, I think, that we have different ideas regarding what "traditional" gender roles are. It may be because we come from different "traditions". In my tradtition, people of both genders are expected to explore and develop their individual talents so I don't see that as being incompatible with strengthing gender roles. In fact, I don't see how one could strengthen gender roles without developing individual talents and gifts.

 

If you look back at my comments, I hope you will notice that I mentioned that I think certain gender roles work best as a general rule, that it was important to make room for exeptions as appropriate, and that it works best when both the man and the woman view the functioning of the family as a whole as their own responsibility and be willing to adjust the roles to fit the situation rather than the other way around. The thing about general rules is that they don't fit everybody, and of course we all know that. Just like a clothing pattern is not going to fit everyone the same, a societal general rule is not going to fit everyone the same. Still, I think there is a place for patterns in clothing construction, and I think there's a place for general rules in society. I think everyone understands that both will need adjustment for individual circumstances.

 

Further, I completely agree with you that increased value on the work of home and family regardless of who is doing it would be a wonderful thing for our society. I see some progress in that as well, though I also see people working frantically in the other direction. It seems like we are becoming more and more polarized, as a society, on a lot of relationship-related issues. I find it worrisome.

 

That said, though, if you disagree with me about gender roles, I can respect that. I'm not going to change my mind, but I'm not going to try to make you change yours either. I am glad we can just explain our positions and agree to disagree without having to be disagreeable. :)

[SquirrellyMama]

lol, I hope gender roles never go away, personally! Not that I want to be forced into a June Cleaver role but I do believe there is a beauty in the gifts/talents each gender is given and would not want to see a complete disappearance of natural gender roles.

 

:iagree:

[Melinda in VT]

It is possible, I think, that we have different ideas regarding what "traditional" gender roles are. It may be because we come from different "traditions". In my tradtition, people of both genders are expected to explore and develop their individual talents so I don't see that as being incompatible with strengthing gender roles. In fact, I don't see how one could strengthen gender roles without developing individual talents and gifts.

 

Based on your sig line, I don't think we come from different traditions. :D

 

What do you mean when you talk about strengthening gender roles? I was assuming you meant men should provide and women should stay home and take care of the kids. Was that not what you meant?

 

I'm all for agreeing to disagree, btw. I just want to know if I'm understanding you correctly.

[hornblower]

I don't think that gender roles are the problem, so much as men's assumption (when it exists) that they should not have to assume the child rearing and household responsibilities.

 

Yes, I agree with this.

 

I also think there's a larger systematic assumption that women should shoulder a lot of the caregiving and home making jobs and that these at the same time are 'value less'. Our society continues to rely largely on the free labour of women. Only a few families can afford to pay for nannies, cooks, housekeepers and caregivers for elderly relatives. The vast majority of families do this unpaid work ourselves, and in most instances, that unpaid and unrecognized work falls to the women in the family. (Never mind all the community and charitable work that women are involved in.....) If kids are sick, if they need to go to a dr., if a grandma requires care after hip replacement surgery, the bulk of that work falls on women - regardless of whether they work outside of the home or not.

 

I think we get saddled with this work, whether we want it or are good at it, because of societal pressures for women to be caregivers. My own view is that gender predispositions are more varied than we admit & that there is a huge variety among each gender wrt to their strengths and weaknesses. There are many men who would be good caregivers and many women who suck at it - but the pressures in our culture limit the expression of those natural tendencies.

 

And where some progress has been made for families (with tax discounts and subsidized child care for instance) there is not an equivalent subsidy or discount for families who choose to do that work themselves (regardless of which parent does it). I think this is grossly unfair. Why should families be rewarded financially for putting our kids in daycare but get no subsidy for staying home? (well, I know why. That's a whole other kettle of fish.)

 

Catherine also raises an important point that it's only recently that this unpaid women's work has been recognized in courts as something that the women contributed to their husband's and family's success. It's been an important part of the battle for women's rights.

[elegantlion]

I'm one that appreciates gender bending. I can at once comfort my children from fear and tear the heart out of anyone who may bring them harm. I can cook, clean, do laundry, change nappies and then go kick butt. Meet the demands of my wife? She knows better. But I will listen to her concerns and desires; I will comfort her in need; I will be empathetic toward her; I will change my patterns of behavior when necessary to benefit the foundation and integrity of our relationship.

 

It's actually pretty nice being a modern man.

 

Interesting question that certainly makes me want to write so much more than I have time for.

 

That is awesome, I guess I'll put my :iagree: with this, except my dh is the modern man. Some of our roles are personality (genetic?), some are a result of conditioning, but dh is a much better housekeeper. He's a better cook and he has always been there for the emotional needs of ds. Dh and ds do the majority of the household chores, I cook (although there is great debate on my abilities :lol:), and he pays the bills.

 

Our ideal situation would be if dh could stay home and be "domestic" while I taught school. He would do it in a heartbeat.

 

I love being a SAHM and think I would make a terrible employee now because I don't like being told what to do and when I have to be somewhere. However, if I had some passion for a career I could see dh staying home. Before ds was born and I worked full time I would come home to clean laundry, a clean house, and dinner planned. Ah, the good old days.

 

Ds had a toy kitchen, per his request, as a younger child. He also had the toy broom. He spent hours watching Emeril and Alton Brown and then would "cook" in his kitchen. When I was a kid I played with hot wheels, toy guns, and knives. Barbie just didn't cut it.

[Orthodox6]

Developing ones talents and strengths is a right belonging to all people.

 

Some women seem uncomfortable with gender differences being innate. It takes great self-confidence to accept that this is the case and live a strong, fruitful, happy life.

 

Discrimination and injustice occur, aimed against both men and women. This is a separate issue, though.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Orthodox6

[hornblower]

Some women seem uncomfortable with gender differences being innate. It takes great self-confidence to accept that this is the case and live a strong, fruitful, happy life.

 

Hmmmm. I'd say instead:

 

 

Some women seem uncomfortable with most gender differences being cultural. It takes great self-confidence to break out of these cultural limitations and live a strong, fruitful, happy life.

 

:)

[Crimson Wife]

It is possible, I think, that we have different ideas regarding what "traditional" gender roles are. It may be because we come from different "traditions".

 

Up until the Industrial Revolution, there wasn't the big divide between men working outside the home for pay and women working at home for free. In a homestead type situation everyone pitched in to keep the farm running. Yes, men tended to do more of the heavy manual labor in the fields and the women tended to do more of the inside domestic labor. But both were seen as vital to the family's survival.

[MamaSheep]

Amy, your second paragraph I found absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much.

 

I think for those of us who grew up in the 70s and 80s, there was so much emphasis on the benefits of androgyny, that some of us kind of lost the potential value of gender identification. You're really making me think.

 

I'd like to hear more about what you've read, and how your church may have influenced your beliefs on this subject.

 

I'm learning a ton from everyone's comments. I was, as I said, a little embarrassed to even bring this subject up, but I see I am not the only one who has pondered the value of gender roles, while absolutely respecting the value of androgyny, as well.

 

Thank you, ladies. It is truly humbling how much we can learn from one another.

 

 

Thank you, you're very kind.

 

I'm not sure where to even start in trying to answer your question. My position on this is one that has been developing ever since I was a child and I could not even begin to think what exactly I've read (on both sides of the issue) that has influenced my perspective on this. I can't point to any particular author or treatise, and the more I think about it, the more I think my conclusions are based primarily on a gazillion little personal observations and conversations over the years. Some stand out more than others, but there have been so many. I'm trying to think of some examples to share, but the most poignant ones were shared with me in confidence and it doesn't feel right to put them on the internet, even if nobody here would know who I was talking about. So I think I won't get specific here.

 

You are very much correct, though, that my church has had a big influence on my beliefs in this area. Not so much through doctrine, though I certainly love the church's teachings about women (and appreciate them more as I get older), as just by providing a contrast. And the contrast started me thinking about these issues at a very early age--noticing things, and comparing what I saw, and realizing that some things just didn't seem to...y'know...add up.

 

I grew up in the 70s and 80s too. People of my faith were very much a minority where I grew up, and our religious views were...um...not popular. Most of the people I came into contact with considered my parents odd and old fashioned (to put it nicely). I was told more than once that my mother was being oppressed by my father, and that she should quit having so many kids--nobody could properly take care of that many kids, or give them the attention they need--and go get a job and start contributing to society instead of being a drain on it. I was told, by my friends' parents, teachers and guidance counselors, girl scout leaders, and so forth, that I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, especially since I was so smart, and should never allow myself to be repressed into a pathetic life of drudgery as a housewife. I was told that housewives had no freedom, no opportunity, no sense of fulfillment, no options, no self-respect, and most certainly no respect from men.

 

Then I went home. I went home to a house full of happy people. We got plenty of attention from Mom because she didn't have to run off to her job, like my friends' moms. She knew what was going on in each of our lives in minute detail. My friends' moms only knew what the afterschool day care person told them. Yes, she did laundry and swept and vacuumed and changed sheets, but you know what? So did those "liberated women" who told me what a life of drudgery my mother lived. The difference was when she was done with the household stuff that had to be done either way, SHE got to go do what she wanted. She made fun homemade food and clearly truly enjoyed trying new recipes and fiddling with ingredients. She made things. All kinds of things. She read books--the mind expanding kind my friends' mothers never had time for because they were too busy filing inane paperwork. She took classes. She tailored wedding dresses and other fun clothing--but only when she wanted to and because she loves sewing. She made a new dress for each of us girls every year for Easter and our birthdays, and that always made us feel special and loved. She had time to serve on community committees and did so frequently. She had an amazing relationship with my dad. When he came home from work they had time for each other--they didn't just dash past each other on their way somewhere else like I kept seeing my friends' parents do. I never worried that they might be getting a divorce--like so many of my friends did. She loved what she was doing and she so clearly felt a deep sense of fulfillment and satisfaction from her work. She didn't even have to say so, it just radiated from her. My friends' working mothers mostly were exhausted and complained a lot--about work, about their husbands, about their kids. I saw no sense of fulfillment in them despite all their talk about a paycheck being the only path to true fulfillment for a woman. And my dad treated my mom like a queen. She wasn't taking care of the home because he "made" her do it, she was doing it because she loved us and she loved what she did. He expressed gratitude and respect for her every day. She was the woman I knew who was most truly cherished by her husband.

 

There was a lot more, but the general gist is that it just didn't add up with what "society" was telling me about "housewives". And what I saw in the career women I knew didn't add up to what I was being told about them either. I think, though, that without the visible contrast right in my face like that it would have taken me longer to realize how skewed it all was. My mother was the most truly "free" woman I knew. And as far as I could tell, being "liberated" meant trading in your freedom for a paycheck and a bad attitude.

 

That, of course, was when I was a kid, though. My views on the subject have expanded since I grew up, and continue to do so as a million little things pile up. One thing that really chafes on me when I see it these days is the way that men are so frequently portrayed as bungling idiots. Seriously, watch tv commercials and count how many times there's an idiot man who has to be rescued by the savvy woman with the spiffy new product. Can we really not be intelligent, capable women and still allow men to be intelligent and capable too? Do we really have to run down our husbands and fathers and brothers and sons to make ourselves look good? Can't we just stand on our own merit as women?

 

And I've also been told my whole life (by outsiders) that my church is horribly discriminatory and oppressive toward women. That has not meshed well with actual experience and observation either. I see (and experience) the women of my church being valued, respected, listened to, and given positions of leadership where they can make meaningful contributions. I see them being able to do this without having to run down men in the process. I see men and women treating each other as respected equals (there are exceptions, of course, but I'm talking again in general rules). When I point this out, though, I'm generally told that of course I don't SEE how I'm being oppressed because I'm also brainwashed into accepting it.

 

I'm really out of time, but if you're interested in my church's views, there were a couple of talks focusing on women at our church's semi-annual general conference that you might find interesting. General conference sessions are broadcast to church members around the world, and the speakers are church leaders at the world-wide leadership level.

 

This page has text, audio, and video links to all the conference talks. I'm going to just link to the text below, but if you prefer another format, or want to watch facial expression while they're saying what they're saying, or whatever, that'll set you up. My recommendations regarding this subject would be:

 

And Upon The Handmaids In Those Days Will I Pour Out My Spirit - Julie B. Beck, Relief Society General President

Mothers and Daughters - Elder M. Russell Ballard, Apostle

Mothers Teaching Children In the Home - Elder L. Tom Perry, Apostle

Place No More For the Enemy Of My Soul - Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Apostle (Note: This one is about pornography)

Mother Told Me - Elder Bradley D. Foster, Seventy

 

 

There are some others that deal with parents in general a little more, but these are the ones that really focus on women. Also, if you look at the bottom of that first page I linked with the different file types, there's a series of talks from a separate world-wide broadcast for the young women of the church (12-18 year olds) that you might find to be of interest as well.

 

I'm not really sure what kind of information you are looking for, but I'd be happy to have a go at whatever other questions you might have, either here or in private. :)

[Orthodox6]

Hmmmm. I'd say instead:

 

 

Some women seem uncomfortable with most gender differences being cultural. It takes great self-confidence to break out of these cultural limitations and live a strong, fruitful, happy life.

 

:)

 

Hornblower, I really appreciate that you voiced your differing opinion tactfully. I really do ! My belief remains the same as written already, but I am happy that you felt you could disagree peacefully. :)

[Subterranean Society]

Why should families be rewarded financially for putting our kids in daycare but get no subsidy for staying home? (well, I know why. That's a whole other kettle of fish.)

 

But it's quite pertinent to the discussion. The fact remains 3/4 of our GDP relies on consumption. People who stay home do not directly and measurably contribute to the overall GDP and are therefore less valued. Our society benchmarks value on economic contribution.

[Orthodox6]

But it's quite pertinent to the discussion. The fact remains 3/4 of our GDP relies on consumption. People who stay home do not directly and measurably contribute to the overall GDP and are therefore less valued. Our society benchmarks value on economic contribution.

 

Somebody shall have a memory better than mine. A few years ago (within the past ten, at least), was there not at least one European government which, from a desire to increase national population, was paying subsidies to women to stay home and have more children? to stay home for a couple of years, I think it was. This rings a bell for me. . . .

[MamaSheep]

Based on your sig line, I don't think we come from different traditions. :D

 

That's also possible. Since you don't have a sig line, I didn't have anything to go by...lol.

 

What do you mean when you talk about strengthening gender roles? I was assuming you meant men should provide and women should stay home and take care of the kids. Was that not what you meant?

 

I'm all for agreeing to disagree, btw. I just want to know if I'm understanding you correctly.

 

Up until the Industrial Revolution, there wasn't the big divide between men working outside the home for pay and women working at home for free. In a homestead type situation everyone pitched in to keep the farm running. Yes, men tended to do more of the heavy manual labor in the fields and the women tended to do more of the inside domestic labor. But both were seen as vital to the family's survival.

 

This is the sort of attitude I'm talking about when I speak of strengthening traditional gender roles. I'm talking about commitment, not just to each other, or to individual 'jobs', but to the family as a whole. Both spouses taking on responsibility for the success of the family as a whole (not just the "farm", or physical well-being, but emotional, spiritual, and social health as well). Along with this, I mean a rational, cooperative division of labor between the husband and wife in whatever circumstances they find themselves, with a recognition that IN GENERAL (not addressing individual circumstances specifically, but speaking of patterns in the grand overview scheme of things), women TEND to have strengths and desires in the direction of nurturing and organization, where as men TEND to have strengths and desires in the direction of providing sustenance and protection for the family. And those general tendencies are OKAY. And not just ok, but good and useful. To me, strengthening gender roles means encouraging a culture in which 1) women (in general) can feel proud of, and secure in their natural tendencies to nurture, 2) men (in general) can feel proud of, and secure in their natural tendencies to provide and protect, 3) men and women see each other as equal partners working together in a cooperative manner, and see the differences between sexes as complementary and positive, not as threatening and competetive, 4) each individual is valued for his or her personal strengths, talents, and tendencies, and adjustments are made within individual relationships (at home and in the workplace) to highlight and cherish those individual traits without feeling like societal norms must be forced to conform to those individual adjustments.

 

I just know too many women who feel ashamed of their natural feminine traits, and too many men who feel ashamed of their natural masculine traits. And I don't think a push toward androgeny is healthy. Equality, yes, absolutely. But not androgeny. I believe things can be equal without being identical. Even people.

[Night Elf]

I don't see it as right or wrong. About the only two things my DH does that would seem traditional are working and yard work. I used to work. I liked it. I miss it. I can't homeschool and work outside the home. I tried it and it was a Fail. He works from home and works with the kids, mostly in math and science.

 

I hate (yes, really hate) yard work. There are critters out there! I'm absolutely terrified of snakes. I help DH in the yard each spring with the understanding that if I see any critter that grosses me out, especially a snake, I'm done for the entire season. So far I've been out one day this season and nothing grossed me out. I might last one more day. We'll have to see.

 

I've never taken care of the babies and the house by myself. He has always helped just because he wanted to. He probably does more housework than I do now, including the cooking! Yay!

 

I would be very unhappy if my DH and I were in traditional roles. I knew a girl in college who had to run home at lunch every day and make lunch for her husband. I'm talking about a sandwich! I about peed in my pants when she told me that. She said his mom waited on him and his dad all the time and it was what he was used to. My stepdad is the same way. He literally cannot make a sandwich for himself. I've seen him totally lost standing in the kitchen not knowing where to start. I just cannot fathom it. He looked like a little boy, not a grown man.

[fairfarmhand]

I knew a girl in college who had to run home at lunch every day and make lunch for her husband. I'm talking about a sandwich! I about peed in my pants when she told me that. She said his mom waited on him and his dad all the time and it was what he was used to. My stepdad is the same way. He literally cannot make a sandwich for himself. I've seen him totally lost standing in the kitchen not knowing where to start. I just cannot fathom it. He looked like a little boy, not a grown man.

 

See, while I wish for my son to have a more traditional masculine role in his family (protector, provider, etc.) I will not raise him to be that dependent on a "woman" just as I will teach my daughters to check their car's oil, mow the grass, and put gas in their cars. (I have a family member in their late 50's who does not have the first clue of how to put gas in the car!!!!) I feel that is just good parenting. To prepare them for any possibility. It's not that I want my daughter's to necessarily "wear the pants" in their families, nor do I want my ds to be perceived as a "house-husband", but I want all of my kids to be able to take care of themselves, even in the case of long term singleness, divorce or death of a spouse.

 

I work in the yard at times, help with our cattle, till the garden and take the vehicles in for maintenance; I also hs the kids and do the majority of the cleaning. My dh is the vacuum king around here. He does farm work, goes to work sometimes for 60+ hours a week, and helps direct the kid in their clean up. It works for us. He would never want to be home with the kids ALL THE TIME, as it would make him crazy, nor would I want to crawl out of bed at the same time each day and go out to "slay dragons"

[Melinda in VT]

I'm talking about commitment, not just to each other, or to individual 'jobs', but to the family as a whole. Both spouses taking on responsibility for the success of the family as a whole (not just the "farm", or physical well-being, but emotional, spiritual, and social health as well).

 

This part, I whole-heartedly agree with.

 

Along with this, I mean a rational, cooperative division of labor between the husband and wife in whatever circumstances they find themselves, with a recognition that IN GENERAL (not addressing individual circumstances specifically, but speaking of patterns in the grand overview scheme of things), women TEND to have strengths and desires in the direction of nurturing and organization, where as men TEND to have strengths and desires in the direction of providing sustenance and protection for the family.

 

But I don't see how this is necessary or helpful.

 

 

And those general tendencies are OKAY. And not just ok, but good and useful. To me, strengthening gender roles means encouraging a culture in which 1) women (in general) can feel proud of, and secure in their natural tendencies to nurture, 2) men (in general) can feel proud of, and secure in their natural tendencies to provide and protect, 3) men and women see each other as equal partners working together in a cooperative manner, and see the differences between sexes as complementary and positive, not as threatening and competetive, 4) each individual is valued for his or her personal strengths, talents, and tendencies, and adjustments are made within individual relationships (at home and in the workplace) to highlight and cherish those individual traits without feeling like societal norms must be forced to conform to those individual adjustments.

 

Rather than strengthening gender roles in our society, I would rather see us change so that people can feel proud of and secure in their natural tendencies to nurture AND protect, and so that society recognizes that people have these traits in a combination that is unique to them as individuals.

 

I just know too many women who feel ashamed of their natural feminine traits, and too many men who feel ashamed of their natural masculine traits.

 

I think that's a shame. I just don't think the solution is to encourage a societal attitude that contributes to women being ashamed of their provider traits and men being ashamed of their nurturing traits.

 

BTW, I'm not expecting that I'll change your opinion. I'm just enjoying the discussion. :)

[MamaSheep]

BTW, I'm not expecting that I'll change your opinion. I'm just enjoying the discussion. :)

 

Thank you, I won't try to change yours either. I am glad there are some things we can agree on, even if we still disagree on others. :)

[jld]

Amy, those talks were so beautiful, and inspiring! I read through them briefly, but I want to take more time later and reread them. Thank you again for sharing them! And thank you for the offer of asking you questions privately!

 

Dh and I grew up Catholic, and while I don't know much about the Mormon faith, it does seem to put the same great value on the family that the Catholic church does. I think the most important thing I learned growing up Catholic was the value of the family, and I am so grateful for that. It is truly my raison d'etre.

 

If anyone else would like to recommend further reading, I'd be grateful. Religious or secular, it is all appreciated!

 

Ladies (and gentlemen, too), I would like to thank each person here for the kind, respectful way this subject has been handled. I think we've all learned a lot from this exchange!

[theresatwist]

lol, I hope gender roles never go away, personally! Not that I want to be forced into a June Cleaver role but I do believe there is a beauty in the gifts/talents each gender is given and would not want to see a complete disappearance of natural gender roles.

 

I think part of rebelling against traditional gender roles (which I have done and continue to do) is fighting for the freedom to do whatever you'd like (work outside the home, work at home taking care of your kids, whatever) without being judged negatively for it. Women being looked down upon for choosing to stay at home is just as bad as women being forbidden from working outside the home. We need to get rid of all of that. Only you know what is best for you.