Foreign Language credits not accepted if class is taught by parents?

[imeverywoman]

Can anyone verify if this is true? I was just informed by someone that it is not advisable to issue credits in foreign language if the class is/was taught by the parent.

 

Say it isn't so... :(

Edited April 7, 2010 by imeverywoman
'cuz i forgot to subscribe to my own thread! :)

[Brindee]

:001_huh: I have never heard that! I'd like to say it isn't so, but we'll see what others say...

 

:lurk5:

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Can anyone verify if this is true? I was just informed by someone that it is not advisable to issue credits in foreign language if the class is/was taught by the parent.

 

Say it isn't so... :(

 

Sounds to me that this would depend on states, and possibly on colleges.

 

And unless the parent speaks fluently that language, it would be hard to reach any level of skills without conversational classes. I can see the reasoning behind this.

[FloridaLisa]

It probably depends on the college. Also remember, that you may be able to verify foreign language mastery through an SAT subject test.

 

Lisa

[8filltheheart]

I have never heard that. If the transcript is generated like a typical school transcript, then why would a single subject be selected? The argument would necessarily translate across all subject matter in which a parent could not prove high level proficiency.

 

I agree with Lisa, though. SAT subject tests are always an option to verify work. I didn't go that route with my oldest b/c he took so many hrs via dual enrollment. I am taking a different path with my kids since we moved and SAT subject tests and APs are going to play a bigger role.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

It probably depends on the college. Also remember, that you may be able to verify foreign language mastery through an SAT subject test.

 

Lisa

 

Foreign language is one of the things that I'm planning on having tests quantify. Mostly because I think that it will be something that is easy to get an outside verification of.

 

We're doing German (and dabbling in Latin).

 

I'm looking at the AP German test and at the German tests available through Goethe Institute. The Goethe tests are the same tests that foreigners in Germany take in order to document German language proficiency for work and university. There are several different levels of test.

 

For Latin, I'm considering the National Latin Exam. The AP test in Latin would be another option.

 

There are also CLEP tests for French, German and Spanish.

 

I'm not sure why a foreign language would be a special case, although it might raise eyebrows to claim speaking and listening proficiency for a language that the parent can't speak. I'm just planning on coming up with as many ways of quantifying my kids' experience and achievements as possible.

[Ellie]

Can anyone verify if this is true? I was just informed by someone that it is not advisable to issue credits in foreign language if the class is/was taught by the parent.

 

Say it isn't so... :(

Who said this? Anyone other than a college official is not a reliable source. Even a college official should be "pushed" about such a comment.

[Jean in Wisc]

Can anyone verify if this is true? I was just informed by someone that it is not advisable to issue credits in foreign language if the class is/was taught by the parent.

 

Say it isn't so... :(

 

The colleges we've applied to that wanted to be certain the student came away with a certain body of knowledge gave a placement test the summer before their freshman year. All students had to take it--just like some schools require a math test prior to signing up for classes.

 

I've never had a school challenge our foreign language credits. But I'm certain there is some school somewhere who could--so the SAT tests might be a good fall-back. We've been accepted in private and state schools--no questions asked.

 

Jean

[Shifra]

Both Lisa and Sebastian have good points; if your child takes a standardized test like the SAT subject test in a foreign language, a CLEP or AP test, or a language test sponsered by a foreign country (like the Goethe Institute tests mentioned by Sebastian; in French there are DELF exams offered by Alliance Francaise) and scores well then the college should accept the credits. The scoring well can be a sticking point. The SAT subject tests in some languages can be very difficult. For instance, I understand that the Hebrew subject test, if you miss even one question, you are down into the 600s.

 

For more exotic languages that do not have a SAT subject test, CLEP or AP Test, NYU has foreign language proficiency tests that may offer college credits if you score well. www.scps.nyu.edu/areas-of-study/foreign-languages/continuing-education/proficiency.html

[imeverywoman]

It confirms what I thought...I plan to have my students take the SAT II, and or CLEP to demonstrate mastery, so I will cross this off my list of things to worry about.

 

Happy day, y'all. :)

[yinne]

This is true at the University of Nebraska. The admissions people are very picky about what is on a homeschool transcript, especially in the areas of foreign languages and science labs.

 

It is on a case by case basis, but most foreign language programs that are done at home they will not accept. My kids are taking Spanish at a homeschool coop and that has been approved as acceptable by the admissions people, but things like Rosetta Stone and SOS would not be accepted.

 

They have the same restrictions on science labs.

 

This doesn't mean that they won't accept them, but they are considered deficient and have to take the courses at the University.

 

Yvonne in NE

[Heather in VA]

This is true at the University of Nebraska. The admissions people are very picky about what is on a homeschool transcript, especially in the areas of foreign languages and science labs.

 

It is on a case by case basis, but most foreign language programs that are done at home they will not accept. My kids are taking Spanish at a homeschool coop and that has been approved as acceptable by the admissions people, but things like Rosetta Stone and SOS would not be accepted.

 

They have the same restrictions on science labs.

 

This doesn't mean that they won't accept them, but they are considered deficient and have to take the courses at the University.

 

Yvonne in NE

 

Well I can see that. Rosetta Stone (don't know anything about SOS) would definitely not be the same as an academic study of a language. It sounds like they aren't saying they won't accept a student into the university, only that they aren't going to wave any foreign language requirements and they will require at least some.

 

Heather

[Reya]

What????

 

Since I have more qualifications to teach Spanish than many HS teachers, I sincerely doubt this. There are way too many bilingual parents teaching their kids. The only worry I have about my DS is that his eres will sometime sound like erres.

[Reya]

My kids are taking Spanish at a homeschool coop and that has been approved as acceptable by the admissions people, but things like Rosetta Stone and SOS would not be accepted.

 

I wouldn't accept it, either. Not for high school credit.

 

That's different from a parent-taught course, though.

[Guest Barb B]

I guess I will be the desenter here and say - The latest version of rosetta stone spanish is much improved over the previous. My ds is doing rosetta stone combined with a spanish textbook as a supplement. I really think that the colleges that don't think Rosestta stone is good enough are giving your basic 2 years of public school spanish class way too much credit as well. Most colleges require 2 years of a for. language and in 2 years of high school spanish -you don't learn that much - no more then my son's 2 -3 years of rosetta stone. My ds has done freshman year the old ros. stone and 10th and now 11th the latest version. I will count that as 2 years (since to go to the new version we had to back track a little so as not to miss anything since it was completely revamped). Even without the supplementatl textbook - rosetta stone is good. I will say that to get its benefits you need to be on it for at least 2 years. Don't judge it by the first months of lessons. Also - require kids to spend time on it - not just one lesson but at least 30 or more minutes per day and we do that year round. This weekend at the Easter Vigil Mass half the readings were in spanish and ds said he could actually understand what was being said at times!

 

Some colleges do require you to "validate" mommy grades - a language being one of them. Most of the time for a foreign language it is not for admission but placement (or place out of). That said - I wouldn't say it is the majority of colleges out there. We have looked at lots of college requirments and found only a handfull that do.

 

It is unfair because as I said - the average 2 years of spanish at a local high school the kids don't learn much at all.

 

Barb

[Reya]

I'd have to see the new syllabus.... The old RS was pretty thoroughly worthless for preparing a student for third-semester foreign language, though it did have some good points that weren't replicated in a regular kind of program.

 

A typical 2-year HS course teaches 1500-2000 words per year, has kids engaging in simple conversations and writing simple sentences, and teaches present, past, and future verb forms, usually with the major "quirks" (voice, mood, etc.), gender, etc. (This is true of Spanish, French, and Latin, at least...) Don't know what the new RS teaches.

[mcconnellboys]

I would check with the schools you're interested in as it may vary widely. Lots of schools want to see SAT II tests to prove proficiency in foreign languages if they've been done exclusively through homeschooling.

[Heather in VA]

I would also check with colleges about their foreign language requirement. Most I have checked with want to see 3 - 4 years and our high schools require 3 years to graduate with anything but the basic diploma that no one planning on going to college gets.

 

Heather

[Janet in WA]

Can anyone verify if this is true? I was just informed by someone that it is not advisable to issue credits in foreign language if the class is/was taught by the parent.

 

Say it isn't so... :(

We encountered some colleges that required "outside" documentation for certain high school classes, including foreign languages. That outside documentation (meaning outside of a mommy-issued credit) could take many forms: cc classes, SAT II subject tests, accredited correspondence courses, or classes taken on the campus of an accredited high school. Our son applied to one of these colleges, and because it was a selective school where admission was quite competitive, he complied with the requirement (took Spanish at the cc). Like Ellie, I'm sure you could contest (or test) the requirement, but our son wasn't of that frame of mind.

[emubird]

All the colleges we've had contact with have given placement exams for foreign language. If a student places out of the highest level course that they would have been required to take in college then they don't have to take any college courses in it. Or they might place out of a semester or two. It's pretty standard. These colleges do it for everyone. That may be all that this parent ran into. Maybe they just misinterpreted it?

 

If the homeschooled students were denied admission because they "didn't have a foreign language in high school" then that would be a different matter. But even that I would find hard to believe. If a student is someone the college wants, they usually waive requirements. Well, unless it's certain state schools. Odd things do happen there sometimes.

 

The bottom line is: I wouldn't worry about it. And I'd be more willing to take my chances with a college placement test then an SAT II. Usually the college placement tests are more geared to the speed of courses at that college, although I suspect some do use the SAT for this. (When I took the French placement test when I went to college, I was pretty sure it was the SAT subject test, or at least a lot of the questions off it -- only difference was, I didn't have to PAY to take it as a placement test.)

 

Even if your student does take the SAT II in a language, the college may still require their own placement test.

[Guest Barb B]

Quote from Reye : "A typical 2-year HS course teaches 1500-2000 words per year, has kids engaging in simple conversations and writing simple sentences, and teaches present, past, and future verb forms, usually with the major "quirks" (voice, mood, etc.), gender, etc. (This is true of Spanish, French, and Latin, at least...) Don't know what the new RS teaches. " Quote from Reya

 

Barb says:

THis is where I don't see why people don't like Rosetta stone - I feel this is what we have done with it. I just looked at the index for level 2 rosetta stone that lists all the vocab. introduced - there are at least 4,000 words here - probably more. With 80 words ave. per page and 51 pages of words listed. Also, with rosestta stone we are conversing (we have head phones with a microphone), writing, listening, reading, and, now there is also a separate grammar activity with each lesson (although it is also incorporated throughout). Through rosetta stone we have learned all the verb tenses, including voice, mood, gender. . .

 

This is why I say - one can't do a couple months and judge Rosetta Stone. Do the new version (ver. 3). do one level per year and you will be doing all that you describe above. As in any spanish program - you have to stick with Rosetta Stone to see the results. IMO it is better then spanish here at the local schools. I love it and will defend it to any college admissions officer. Also to the one's that say some colleges require 3 years of foreign language - I would say that is not the norm. But this is just our experience. My ds will have 3 on his transcript. And since it is rosetta stone will probably remember more and be able to use it better then some public school kids!

 

Barb

Edited April 8, 2010 by Barb B

[emubird]

Qoute :

 

This is why I say - one can't do a couple months and judge Rosetta Stone. Do the new version (ver. 3). do one level per year and you will be doing all that you describe above. As in any spanish program - you have to stick with Rosetta Stone to see the results. IMO it is better then spanish here at the local schools. I love it and will defend it to any college admissions officer. Also to the one's that say some colleges require 3 years of foreign language - I would say that is not the norm. But this is just our experience. My ds will have 3 on his transcript. And since it is rosetta stone will probably remember more and be able to use it better then some public school kids!

 

Barb

 

Are the first RS two levels pretty much the same as what they had before? Or have they revamped those?

 

I gave up on the old Rosetta Stone because I wasn't learning anything but words. I've had a lot better luck with Pimsleur.

 

I was partway through the 2nd level of RS.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Quote : "A typical 2-year HS course teaches 1500-2000 words per year, has kids engaging in simple conversations and writing simple sentences, and teaches present, past, and future verb forms, usually with the major "quirks" (voice, mood, etc.), gender, etc. (This is true of Spanish, French, and Latin, at least...) Don't know what the new RS teaches. "

 

You've described less than the first year of Spanish that my son is doing in grade 7. First, there are more than one type of present, past and future. Especially the past, which can come in three flavours. My son also did subjunctive mood, imperative mood. And by the end of the year, he wasn't writing simple sentences, he was writing full paragraphs. He was reading texts that were at least one page long. That was one year of middle school, not high school.

[Guest Barb B]

CleoCQ - The description you quoted isn't mine but a previous poster (they were actually quoting what they experienced as a typical ps spanish year) The quote you quoted is someone elseI was quoting (sorry - I didn't use the proper way to quote so it was confusing). I stated rs teaches at least 4,000 words per level(year) and all tenses of verbs. No, I didn't list all tenses but I meant all tenses ect - of verbs - rosetta stone does accomplish that.I did say it included moods . . . It is a comprehensive program that most people don't give a chance and for some reason just write off as bad. Our experience is it is thorough. Looking at the bible readings at church this past week written in the liturgy guide in spanish - I could follow it! With Rosetta stone you speak, read, write, listen. . . it is not just some computer game or a look and click type program. IF I started my son in 7th grade with this version of Rosetta Stone - he could do that then too. But we started in high school. I still don't see much difference in what rosetta stone is accomplishing and what your son is learning.

 

To answer Emubird's question - version 3 is completely different then version 2. I mean completely! That is why I think some still give rs a bad rap - they are thinking of version 2. I was thinking of dropping version 2 but I love version 3! That is exactly where we were in the old rs and when we switched we had to back up and a little lower then we were so as not to miss anything.

 

Barb

Edited April 8, 2010 by Barb B

[Reya]

You've described less than the first year of Spanish that my son is doing in grade 7. First, there are more than one type of present, past and future. Especially the past, which can come in three flavours. My son also did subjunctive mood, imperative mood. And by the end of the year, he wasn't writing simple sentences, he was writing full paragraphs. He was reading texts that were at least one page long. That was one year of middle school, not high school.

 

I'm getting this from actual HS textbooks that I've been able to see and review.

 

In a first-year Spanish class, both preterit and imperfect are typically covered. (Three flavors? Not sure what you mean by that....) So are subjunctive and imperative present. Future usually isn't.

 

Sadly, in American high school textbooks, reading is not emphasized. There isn't much until the second year, unless you use extra materials.

 

The "lite" HS books I saw I estimated at 1,500 unique words (conjugations, of course, don't count.) The average ones had about 2,000 unique words in their indexes.

 

I think, CleoCQ, that you underestimate the difficulty of imperfect for English-speakers. Most good students can't use it skillfully until several years of study. Part of this is, indubitably, the teaching methods most commonly used in American foreign language instruction, but I've met a number of adults who have been in immersive environments for over a year who can't competently use subjunctive/indicative and imperfect/preterit.

[Cedarmom]

I think the differance is, as others have said, is you may need to take a mastery test to show you have the knowledge. If the student takes an accredited high school or college class he may not have to take additional tests.

[Ester Maria]

I think, CleoCQ, that you underestimate the difficulty of imperfect for English-speakers. Most good students can't use it skillfully until several years of study. Part of this is, indubitably, the teaching methods most commonly used in American foreign language instruction, but I've met a number of adults who have been in immersive environments for over a year who can't competently use subjunctive/indicative and imperfect/preterit.

I agree with this. My most frustrating experiences when teaching Italian as a second language in the US were with people not getting that subjunctive is a mood rather than a tense and not getting based on what you switch moods, and with people having real difficulties with getting the perfective and the imperfective aspect, both semantically and grammatically. It used to really drive me nuts, because the aspect distinction and its implications is something you should learn in your first year of studying Italian, and subjunctives in your second, and I've had people who were really advanced with the language, but to me it appeared that they were stuck with the "basics".

 

At first I thought it was coincidental that I was teaching a few linguistically dumb adults, but as those situations were repeating with many people I've taught, I've reached a conclusion that it can't really be a coincidence. There IS something inherently problematic about these concepts for English speakers, especially if they weren't good at grammar at school or studied classics.

 

Still not an excuse, though, to be stuck on a level of a tourist and writing simple sentences after a high school of study of a foreign language - with regards to that, I agree with CleoCQ. My daughters are approximately on the quoted level with French and German, two languages they've never studied in an academic setting, solely after travelling a bit (but NO immersion experiences and NO extended stays in the countries where those languages are spoken), picking up a few expressions from native youths their age, getting through a phrasebook or passively consuming some pop-culture in those languages - a formal study in 2-3 years should absolutely produce better results than that. I still fail to understand why American school system thinks 2 years of a tourist level knowledge of a foreign language is okay, but that's only me. In Europe it's still common to study languages through literature more than through artificial dialogues as soon as possible, which is a lot better approach in my opinion.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I think, CleoCQ, that you underestimate the difficulty of imperfect for English-speakers. Most good students can't use it skillfully until several years of study. Part of this is, indubitably, the teaching methods most commonly used in American foreign language instruction

 

The books my son is using are French/Spanish books. However, EDELSA has books out for the same age category that are stricly in Spanish, *and* used in Great-Britain. While British English and American English are two different beasts, I don't think there's such a gap that Americans can achieve the same level of second-language learning as the British can. What's different are the expectations. In Europe, it's expected to know many languages. Each person will know many people who can speak fluently at least two, if not six languages. In the US, people are in awe (of course I'm generalising here) when they hear us switch from one language to another, sometimes mid-sentence. So what's the norm in one place is awe-inspiring in another. That leads to a culture of non-bilingualism, the "we can't do that" mentality. (Nota: I have known bilingual Americans, and some that can speak fluently more than 2 languages. They do exist, they're just not the norm, and funnily enough they don't seem to be especially vocal about bilingualism..)

 

Here are series of books used in the UK. Some will be English/Spanish, others will be complete Spanish immersion.

https://www.eurobooks.co.uk/results.php?subject[]=SPA&rpp=30&offset=30&offset=60&offset=90&offset=30

 

I'm hoping the link will work.

 

CleoCQ - The description you quoted isn't mine but a previous poster

 

My apologies. It dawned on me that this was most likely the case, but I was driving the kids to their violin lessons at that point. I would have corrected otherwise. I was just too slow this morning. Sorry!

[Allearia]

A typical 2-year HS course teaches 1500-2000 words per year, has kids engaging in simple conversations and writing simple sentences, and teaches present, past, and future verb forms, usually with the major "quirks" (voice, mood, etc.), gender, etc. (This is true of Spanish, French, and Latin, at least...) Don't know what the new RS teaches.

 

I am not disagreeing with you, and I believe that this is what a 2 year HS course should teach. But I took Spanish for three years in high school and never got past the present tense, we mostly worked on verb agreement and gender and vocabulary for three years.

 

I went abroad my senior year and learned Portuguese fluently, studied several semesters of French and Portuguese in college, and my 8yo son currently works with a Latin tutor, so I am very serious about foreign language. But I know that what is taught in high school foreign language classes will vary wildly by region. Rosetta Stone probably would have been a huge improvement over my high school classes.

[Guest Barb B]

CleoCq - what do your kids use for foreign language - I liked the link you provided and was wondering if you use something from there or something different. Could it be used as a supplement?

 

Allearia - it is exactly that foreign language classes vary so much that if a college requires extra "validation" or proof from homeschoolers they should require it of all applicants.

 

Barb

[Brindee]

Here are series of books used in the UK. Some will be English/Spanish, others will be complete Spanish immersion.

https://www.eurobooks.co.uk/results.php?subject[]=SPA&rpp=30&offset=30&offset=60&offset=90&offset=30

 

I'm hoping the link will work.

 

Cleo,

 

I went to this site, and found some that look interesting, but I really don't know what would be best to get for a 13yo beginner in Spanish. I saw Club Prisma and Companeros (don't know how to make the ~ mark over the n), which both had A1-B1 or B2. Are those good programs?

 

I don't know the British money system either, so not sure if we can order these from that site, or even how much they are in American dollars.

 

Also, can this be done by my dd on her own, mostly? I don't know Spanish, and she learns faster than I do, so I don't want to slow her down....

 

Any way to find these things out?

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

CleoCq - what do your kids use for foreign language

 

Nothing that can be useful to most people here, unfortunately. I have my kids learn their foreign language through France's long distance education program. That's why my son's book is French/Spanish. So is my daughter's, but she's still in primary school (grade 4). I attempted to teach my kids through English-based resources, and found we were wasting time. While it's true that English speakers have to learn the concept of conjugation and gender, those lessons were just wasted time for us. So I switched everyone to a French-based system. Also, based on my own experience with Wheelock Latin, once you hit the advanced part of a language, it's just too complex to go through your second language first. Especially when you hit the nuances of using one verb mood as opposed to another. Yikes. That's when I quit Wheelock. Funnily enough, when I did Latin through Belgium's long distance program, we hit those sections much quicker and they were easier to understand too!

[Gratia271]

I would have outside testing to provide validation.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

. I saw Club Prisma and Companeros (don't know how to make the ~ mark over the n), which both had A1-B1 or B2. Are those good programs?

 

Are you familiar with the European Framework for Foreign Language?

 

A1 is beginner, B1 is intermediate, and C1 is advanced (literature level)

Each European country publishes standards for learning its language, based on a common framework of reference. So, A1 speakers would know the same things, regarless of the language. There are exams available worldwide based on those standards. They are quickly become *the* standard for foreign languages (I wonder, will China implement those eventually???)

 

Here's the website for the DELE

http://www.dele.org/

[Guest Barb B]

This thread has become interesting that I keep pausing through my day to check it! Anyway - it seems that having English as a first language and starting a study of Foreign language in high school is a disadvantage to most of us! I like the discussion of how European foreign language programs work - interesting. That said - it seems that most of us who are American born/English as first language - that we are not nor cannot provide such a foreign language at home. Back to the original poster - and discussion - what entails a good foreign language for us in order to satisfy American Colleges. I think that there are many options. If we had an outside class here - my kids would be in it. But we don't. To us Rosetta Stone (with supplements) fits the bill. 4,000 words per year, plus all types (moods . . . ) of verbs, with being required to listen, speak, converse (yes, with the computer and a microphone) and read. Well, it isn't so bad. Ds will do rosetta stone up until he goes off to college - that way if they need him to take a placement test he hasn't had a summer off and it will be fresh. Rosetta Stone has 5 levels (they say each level is a year - we are trying now to do it faster then that) so we should be able to do almost if not all of that before he goes off to college (right now he is a junior). And well, it is the best I can provide.

 

Barb

[Guest Barb B]

CleoCq - is the link you provided latin american spanish or spain. We are doing Latin American so it may not be usefull here.

 

Barb

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

CleoCq - is the link you provided latin american spanish or spain. We are doing Latin American so it may not be usefull here.

 

Barb

 

Those books tend to cover both. The main teaching will be Spain Spanish, but every difference will be pointed out. I can only speak to the two that I'm familiar with, but that's what I've seen so far.

[Joan in GE]

What's different are the expectations. In Europe, it's expected to know many languages. Each person will know many people who can speak fluently at least two, if not six languages.

 

Personally I think it is the lack of need to speak a second or third language that is the American problem. You can drive 3,000 miles and not need to speak another language.

 

Europeans typically vacation in a country where they speak a different language. The Brits love to vacation in Spain and France and are part of the European Union. And if they want to work outside their country, they normally need to speak another language too. For Americans, that would be like wanting to work in another state and needing to speak a different language, if you compare a large state to a small European country.

 

Some countries (eg Switzerland) have up to 4 official languages. (I just learned that South Africa has 11 official languages). We just drive 2 hours or less and they're speaking German (and that's only because I live the farthest distance possible from a German speaking region). Even in Germany, the dialects can be so different that they have trouble understanding each others' dialect.

 

In the US you really have to work at getting foreign language experience, whereas over here it comes naturally. I have great admiration for any American who becomes fluent in a foreign language while living in the US.

 

ETA - One thing I've observed over the last 20 years is a huge increase in the number of Americans working overseas. They tend to come for 2-3 years but some stay much longer. For the employee and their spouse, they generally adjust better when if they already speak or can easily learn the foreign language (generally easier to learn a 3rd than a 2nd). So if your 'students' can learn a foreign language well, it might make a difference in their career.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Joan in Geneva