Another tragedy where hs-ing is being noted

[Twinmom]

I just read this article on Comcast: "Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies." Apparently, a family in Wisconsin did not seek medical attention for their ill 11 yr old daughter, who subsequently died from complications from diabetes (which it sounds like had not been previously diagnosed-she had become ill over the course of a month.). A very sad story...I'm not going to comment on the parents' choice because I don't think the article gave enough information to know what really happened. Personally, I would have both prayed AND sought medical care, but who knows? I'm not trusting the media here to give the whole story, so I'll withhold judgement.

 

What irritates me, however, is the connection the article made to home schooling. The article states,

 

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

 

What does her educational status have to do with this story, other than to make it seem as though her home schooling was somehow abusive? There is nothing else in the article that suggests a comment about home schooling would fit in anywhere, unless it would be to connect it in some way to abusive parenting. Perhaps there was abusive parenting...I have no idea from the brief article. However, there is one thing I feel certain about...this girl isn't dead because she was home schooled!

 

Grrrr...thanks for letting me get this off my chest!

[Karen sn]

I personally don't think that medical intervention would have saved her. She might not have died from diabetes complication - but a tree would have fallen on her. The day you die is the day you die! The only thing we can somewhat control is how we go. If you smoke 3 packs a day - it MIGHT be a lung related death. If you eat healthy and exercise - it might be that a car runs over you on your morning jog.....but the day you die is the day you die PERIOD. Of course that is MY OWN OPINION, but one that does give me some peace.

 

What about all these kids who die BECAUSE of medical intervention - meningitis caused by circumcision wound....does the family get in trouble? the doctors? How about all the death related to vaccines?

 

I think it's a very personal decision how we care for our kids and I know this family is suffering enough without the media dragging them through the mud.

OK - off my soapbox now.

[dalynnrmc]

Makes me wonder if the family saw something going on with the daughter and pulled her from school to see if they could figure out the issue... which turned out to be diabetes. Seems that maybe it's the PS who may be at fault - how many meals a day are eaten at home, and how many in the ps? ;)

 

If she was just pulled last semester, I'd almost bet there was a trigger of some sort to pull her home, and that it's completely possible that the diabetes had something to do with it.

 

Anyway. No opinion here either as far as the parenting goes, but like you said - media spins things and this was my first thought.. TFS!

[Janet in WA]

 

What does her educational status have to do with this story, other than to make it seem as though her home schooling was somehow abusive?

Well, I would guess that some might like to suggest that she was pulled from public school in order to better conceal the fact that the family was not seeking medical treatment for their daughter. Clearly, if the public schools had been allowed to do their jobs of policing for abuse, this little girl would be alive today (said with sarcasm, of course).

[Melinda in VT]

It seems to me that the place where the article mentioned she is homeschooled is the place where it would have otherwise mentioned what school she attended (for example, "Madeline — an honors student at Judson Middle School — was declared dead"). Unless the article goes on to mention homeschooling in other ways, I wouldn't think that the writer meant to single out homeschooling in any other way.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

It seems to me that the place where the article mentioned she is homeschooled is the place where it would have otherwise mentioned what school she attended (for example, "Madeline — an honors student at Judson Middle School — was declared dead"). Unless the article goes on to mention homeschooling in other ways, I wouldn't think that the writer meant to single out homeschooling in any other way.

 

I absolutely agree. And if he had left out that detail -- that she was bright, that she was also homeschooled -- someone would be up in arms about the lack of information.

 

It's quite common to mention where a child is being educated. Sometimes filler, sometimes not. Two students died tragically in an auto accident in the next town over earlier this month, and it was mentioned that they were students at the local adult alternative education program. It didn't have anything to do with the fact that the other driver was going the wrong way down the highway, but it added information about the girls.

 

And honestly, based on the info, I'd assume she left the classroom to be educated at home because she was ill. That's not uncommon around here, nor is it considered a stigma even to local members of the NEA.

[Jenny in Atl]

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

By ROBERT IMRIE, Associated Press Writer

Fri Mar 28, 6:16 AM ET

Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

 

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

 

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

 

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

 

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

 

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

 

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

 

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

 

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

 

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

 

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

 

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

 

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

 

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

 

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

 

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

 

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

 

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

[Janet in WA]

I absolutely agree. And if he had left out that detail -- that she was bright, that she was also homeschooled -- someone would be up in arms about the lack of information.

 

It's quite common to mention where a child is being educated. Sometimes filler, sometimes not. Two students died tragically in an auto accident in the next town over earlier this month, and it was mentioned that they were students at the local adult alternative education program. It didn't have anything to do with the fact that the other driver was going the wrong way down the highway, but it added information about the girls.

 

And honestly, based on the info, I'd assume she left the classroom to be educated at home because she was ill. That's not uncommon around here, nor is it considered a stigma even to local members of the NEA.

Let me clarify that I wasn't stating that I thought the news article was making any implications -- just that those implications will probably be made now that the news is out that the child was homeschooled.

[Jenny in Atl]

Even if the girl was in school, most likely she would have been sent home for symptoms of the flu. I almost lost my youngest to Type-1 diabetes, and this after taking her to the pediatrician just days before she went into DKA. I'm not dismissing what these parents did; I disagree strongly with their actions. I'm just not sure homeschooling or not homeschooling would have made any difference.

[cricket1178]

I agree with the others that said the article was just stating where she went to school. But, I do think this causes people to connect the incident with homeschooling. :glare:

[Carol in Cal.]

But I am an 'act now!' type of person.

 

It is easy for me to picture this happening through sort of procrastination and unsureness about how serious things are.

 

Also, I have a friend whose daughter developed Type 1 diabetes over a 2 year period. She had intermittant and serious physical problems that appeared variously as digestive problems, flu, food allergies, CFS, and other, vaguer symptoms. She was taken to the emergency room several times when she almost lost consciousness, and they tested her for insulin and blood sugar problems repeatedly and didn't find anything (because in the early stages, for many people, it is intermittant.)

 

If this child's medical history was anything like my friend's, I can easily imagine the family just figuring that there was nothing really wrong with her. That's what the doctors kept saying to my friend.

 

Again, I don't defend these actions (or inactions). But I can picture some people doing them innocently.

[PiCO]

Why do some Christians believe in no medical intervention? I would think that, if one believes in an omnipotent and omniscient God, one would have to believe that God inspired the development of modern medicine. Why wouldn't God want people to use all the technologies that He has made available?

 

I believe this family did what they thought was in the best interest of their child, I just don't understand why they thought prayer was best.:confused:

[KristineIN]

This is just sad, but things do happen. I just want to add that our pastor and his wife have 10 children and about two years ago their son was withering away before everyones eyes (even those that see him everyday didn't really notice anything until his grandma who only sees him a few times a year said something when she was visiting) They took him right away , no one really took into consideration anything serious, he just kept saying how thirsty he was, it wasn't until after they got him to the hospital did they learn how serious it was and that it was diabetes. He spent two days in the hospital getting better before they released him. They are not ones to avoid dr.'s The son was about 13 at the time and didn't realize something was wrong.

 

Kristine

[Volty]

This just disgusts me. I know there's a lot of strong Christians here and I'm having a really hard time writing this in a way that doesn't offend, but there's a lesson here. I'm sure these parents are distraught and devastated by what happened but the cold hard truth is that it was their negligence that killed their daughter.

 

So I really hope that when you have a sick child, you put as much faith in the medical community as you do in God. If God's going to heal your child, probably the best vehicle to use is your doctor.

 

I mean, nobody here, woulddo this... I hate to sound like I would assume that. I just.... really can't understand people of strong faith sometimes.

[Jenny in Atl]

It's not just people of faith. There was a case a few years ago, in North Carolina, of a family who took their daughter off insulin. They were seeing a doctor of sorts, who said he could "cure" their daughter by sweating the sugar out of her system. He actually feed the child large amounts of sugar to increase her urine output. Well, the child died and the "doctor" is now in jail. But, the thing that kills me, is that this family so wanted to believe in this cure, that they would turn their backs on common sense. It was so sad.

[midwestbelle]

I am of strong faith, and we see doctors. Our pastor said one time, "Pray like it's all up to God and work like it's all up to you."

[Storm Bay]

It's not just people of faith. There was a case a few years ago, in North Carolina, of a family who took their daughter off insulin. They were seeing a doctor of sorts, who said he could "cure" their daughter by sweating the sugar out of her system. He actually feed the child large amounts of sugar to increase her urine output. Well, the child died and the "doctor" is now in jail. But, the thing that kills me, is that this family so wanted to believe in this cure, that they would turn their backs on common sense. It was so sad.

 

Yes, I've seen this before, too.

 

I believe God can heal, but I also think that He can work in doctors or other professionals. A friend of mine who is a nurse says when you're sick and need help you need the best "body mechanic" you can find. If you don't see an answer in enough time you get help!

 

As for going off medication, I believe that if you've been truly healed, your body will begin to reject the medication. And that would be very apparent with insulin controlled diabetes. I don't understand why Christians seem to fail to remember that Paul gave Timothy some medical advice and that Luke was a physician. I think some people take things out of context to support their own theologies.

 

As for the person who pointed out deaths from vaccines, there are also Rx induced deaths. But still, more kids died before vaccinations than now.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

It has not much more relevance to the story than the fact that she wore her pretty brown hair in a ponytail most of the time (which my paper reported). Unless you are trying to link being an educational iconoclast with rejecting standard medical care.

[Storm Bay]

It has not much more relevance to the story than the fact that she wore her pretty brown hair in a ponytail most of the time (which my paper reported). Unless you are trying to link being an educational iconoclast with rejecting standard medical care.

 

Which, sad to say, a number of people do like to do. Similar to some people's concern that homeschoolers may be homeschooling to hide physical abuse.

[Karen sn]

This just disgusts me. I know there's a lot of strong Christians here and I'm having a really hard time writing this in a way that doesn't offend, but there's a lesson here. I'm sure these parents are distraught and devastated by what happened but the cold hard truth is that it was their negligence that killed their daughter.

 

So I really hope that when you have a sick child, you put as much faith in the medical community as you do in God. If God's going to heal your child, probably the best vehicle to use is your doctor.

 

I mean, nobody here, woulddo this... I hate to sound like I would assume that. I just.... really can't understand people of strong faith sometimes.

 

As a recovered Southern Baptist and a registered nurse I DO put as much faith in the medical community as God.....NONE WHATSOEVER. God doesn't keep little kids from dying anymore than the doctors do. It's a cruel cruel world and just because you pray AND/OR go to the doctor doesn't mean your kid lives.

Vaccines and circumcisions kill - this from doctors?

Trees fall on children and kill them instantly - this from God?

 

Life just happens. But to place blind faith in either God or Doctor does not mean your kid will live. To criticize a Christian for their faith in God but not faith in a doctor seems quite silly to me.

 

And Volty, I'm not trying to be snotty - but if you've ever seen the inside of a hospital from a nursing standpoint you would see how silly blind faith in the medical community is.

[cin]

No matter what their beliefs are, I agree with what other posters have said about diabetes. It can be HARD to diagnose in children. My friend's daughter lost quite a bit of weight before her DENTIST diagnosed it; her breath was horrid, and it indicated ketoacidosis--when protein spills into the urine (I think). So, despite the parents' beliefs, the daughter could easily have had flu or cold-like symptoms; weakness, lethargy and such. Then the coma hits and you pray, and, in most cases, call 911.

 

Another example: Patti LaBelle collapsed on stage, had no inkling she was sick. Her blood sugar was, I believe, in the 500s. Normal blood sugars are in the 90-120 range. In THIS particular instance, I do not beleive the parents were at fault. Crazy, yes. fault, no

[chickenpatty]

That's true. My dd had virus-like symptoms for a month before she was diagnosed. Our pedi even prescribed an antibiotic, thinking she may have had a sinus infection that she couldn't shake. Thankfully, she did not go into DKA.

 

This situation is very, very sad.

[Mrs Mungo]

I am of strong faith, and we see doctors. Our pastor said one time, "Pray like it's all up to God and work like it's all up to you."

 

I remember my pastor once telling the following story:

 

A flood was coming to town. While everyone else was evacuating, he stayed, saying "God will save me."

 

Pretty soon the streets are filled with water and the water isup to his doorstep. His neighbor came by in a canoe but the man refused to get in, saying "God will save me."

 

The water continued to rise and flooded the first floor of the house. Somebody came by in a motorboat and offered to help him. He refused the help, saying "God will save me."

 

The water continued to rise, the man had to climb on his roof. A helicopter flew over and tried to rescue him. Still, he insisted "God will save me."

 

He drowned in the flood.

 

When he came to the pearly gates he was furious! He told St Peter that he had expected God to save him. St Peter looked in the books and said "WELL! We sent 2 boats and a helicopter!"

 

Blame aside, it's easy for doctors to miss what is going on in a child's body. It's easy for a parent who is unfamiliar with a disease to miss the signs in a child. We don't really have *nearly* enough facts in this case to make a judgement.

[beansprouts]

I personally don't think that medical intervention would have saved her. She might not have died from diabetes complication - but a tree would have fallen on her. The day you die is the day you die! The only thing we can somewhat control is how we go. If you smoke 3 packs a day - it MIGHT be a lung related death. If you eat healthy and exercise - it might be that a car runs over you on your morning jog.....but the day you die is the day you die PERIOD. Of course that is MY OWN OPINION, but one that does give me some peace.

 

My guess is you still look both ways before crossing the street ;)

[beansprouts]

Personally, I think if there is a spin to this story it is on the family's professed faith. The decision to homeschool may just be another way of showing what religious nuts these people are. (You know only religious nuts in blue denim jumpers pull their kids out of public schools, don't you??) Apparently they have been successful as a few here have responded negatively to Christians based on the choices of a very small minority.

 

Most Christians realise that God has blessed us with a health care system which still succeeds more than it fails, and we do use it when we need it.

[beansprouts]

I apologize if my response was a bit sharp last night. It was 1:30 am here, I couldn't sleep, and I was feeling punchy. This story made me very angry - angry that a little child suffered for weeks without medical attention, then died needlessly. I am angrier still that her parents and the press are dragging Christ's name through the mud over this. This is *not* what Christianity teaches. It is important to me that you all understand this.

 

[/rant] Thanks for listening!

[LizzyBee]

It seems to me that the place where the article mentioned she is homeschooled is the place where it would have otherwise mentioned what school she attended (for example, "Madeline — an honors student at Judson Middle School — was declared dead"). Unless the article goes on to mention homeschooling in other ways, I wouldn't think that the writer meant to single out homeschooling in any other way.

 

:iagree: I agree. It's common to mention where a child goes to school, whether it home, public, or private.

[LizzyBee]

Why do some Christians believe in no medical intervention?

 

This is very much a minority view among Christians. Please don't attribute this family's pov to Christianity in general!

[Pamela H in Texas]

This story made me very angry - angry that a little child suffered for weeks without medical attention, then died needlessly.

 

Hmmmm....

 

Though I first thought, "why on earth didn't they get her medical treatment sooner?" I would like to come at this from the standpoint of a mother who a bit over 6 months ago almost lost her daughter to an illness.

 

See, my daughter had been "suffering" but the symptoms weren't those we knew to be particularly concerned about. In fact, I'm sure most parents have had a time that their teenager slept a little more, gained a little weight, etc. How sick does the child in this pic look?

 

 

BTW, we are active in our congregation, community, family, etc. We aren't one of those small percentage of homeschool families that hides our children.

 

Then I did get worried. I called for appt, they couldn't see her. I asked if we should do more, mentioning symptoms. They said to just come Monday. I got more worried and took her to the hospital. They sent her home and said follow up with doc in 2 weeks. Had we followed that advice, I wouldn't have this child with me anymore. We finally got scared and took her to another hospital.

 

Now, granted, I DID seek medical attention....eventually. What if it had been a week later?

 

Honestly, can every single parent say they would take their child to the doctor for some flu-like symptoms? What might seem like a stomach bug? For general malaise? For on-again-off-again symptoms? I probably wouldn't take my kids for ANY of those symptoms even if they lasted a little or came back ESPECIALLY if the child seemed like the picture of the child above much of the time too.

 

The family said they were NOT anti-doctor. They just hadn't considered it necessary yet. Seriously, MOST of the time, kids do not need doctors. MOST of the time, it's something fairly minor. RARELY is it something that is going to kill them. And we'd be ridiculous (and problem-causing, actually) if we took them to the doctor every time they gained a few pounds, acted more tired, threw up, sniffled, complained of being thirsty, had a headache, etc.

 

MAYBE this family should have gotten her to a doctor sooner. Maybe there was really little way for them to know it though. It seems awfully harsh to judge from an article :(

[LizzyBee]

The family said they were NOT anti-doctor. They just hadn't considered it necessary yet.

 

Wow, I didn't even catch that, and I read at least one article in its entirety. I think maybe the media is deliberately spinning it to make it more controversial and thus more "interesting."

[beansprouts]

My friend's ds was diagnosed with Type I a few years ago. He was sick for at least a week, lethargic, and losing weight - the boy was completely pale and you could see his bones poking through his skin. It was very frightening, and not something you could easily miss. In his case at least it was very obvious that he needed medical attention.

 

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness

 

 

My child had these symptoms for a week and you all begged me to take her to the doc. In our case it was the flu.

 

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

 

 

 

The child was in serious condition a full day before she died.

 

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

 

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

 

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

 

 

This witness is saying that even after the child slipped into a coma the family was refusing to call for help.

 

Believe me, I would love to interpret this story differently. Unless the media is flat out lying, it seems clear that the child was in obvious danger and her parents refused to take advantage of the resources (God) provided them. They prayed, but they didn't listen - and a child died. :(

 

You are right, though - It is not my job to judge, nor was it my intention. I am feeling a bit more compassionate toward this tragically misguided family - I know they didn't mean to harm their own child. I just wanted people to understand that this is *not* what Christianity teaches.

[Storm Bay]

 

Life just happens. But to place blind faith in either God or Doctor does not mean your kid will live. To criticize a Christian for their faith in God but not faith in a doctor seems quite silly to me.

 

And Volty, I'm not trying to be snotty - but if you've ever seen the inside of a hospital from a nursing standpoint you would see how silly blind faith in the medical community is.

 

This is an excellent point. As is the story someone else put about that flood with the boats and helicopter. But I don't believe God wants us to have blind faith, which is a whole different topic.

 

Medicine is part art, part science. Doctors are not God, they cannot and do not know it all. Same with nurses. There are way too many medical journals for one doctor to read them all. I have 3 doctors in the family and have seen both sides of the coin. My dad, who is a fabulous surgeon, has had patients die even though he did everything "right" as far as the surgery goes. He's spent many a sleepless night (if you add it up over the nearly 40 years, including tragic auto accidents) over this.

 

Many sicknesses look like the flu at first, like chicken pox and meningitis, and the latter can change very quickly. Before they had MRI's, etc, a certain set of symptoms was always assumed to be appendicitis because 99 percent of the time it was, so they operated to save lives. You can't wait. But if someone had the other 1 percent sometimes they'd get angry. But before that equipment a doctor had no way of seeing that appendix before opening up.

 

There are other issues, like overhiring LPNs when they need more RNs (I know this has happened in at least some places), and when in the hospital someone who is out of it needs an advocate to be sure no mistakes are made with medications, that hands are properly scrubbed by all checking the patient, etc.

 

Personally, I think the media thrives on negative news. Not every journalist operates this way, but overall it's not unusual for things to get twisted.

[Mrs Mungo]

This witness is saying that even after the child slipped into a coma the family was refusing to call for help.

 

I had not seen this bit before. I agree, it's unacceptable to me for a child to be in a coma and their family do nothing but pray.

[Storm Bay]

I had not seen this bit before. I agree, it's unacceptable to me for a child to be in a coma and their family do nothing but pray.

 

 

:iagree: That's negligence, if that's truly what happened.