Life of Fred - question

[Maddysmom26]

Okay.. So Ive gone over a many Math options and have decided on LOF to start 5th grade in Sept. ALong with a practice site ixl.com .

 

My question is .. which LOF should I start her on for 5th grade level?

 

 

Thank you:)

Lindsay

[nmoira]

I'd start her with LoF: Fractions. Some of the material will be familiar, but it does cover more concepts than just fractions.

[Maddysmom26]

Okay.. thats what I was thinking !

 

Thank you!! :)

[Corraleno]

You'd want to start with the Fractions and Decimals & Percents books, but those aren't really a complete curriculum. After that you could do Prealgebra & Biology, but again I wouldn't really consider that complete. I'm not familiar with ixl.com, but unless your child is exceptionally mathy and is truly ready for Prealgebra in 5th grade, you'd want something that included quite a bit of basic math practice, as well as explanations for things that might not be clear just from LoF. Most people use LoF as a supplement to another program until you start Algebra. (We're using it with Math Mammoth.)

 

Once you get to Beginning Algebra, you can use LoF with the Home Companion and that would constitute a complete curriculum ~ although many parents still find that their kids need more practice than just what's in the LoF books. They are wonderful, though!

 

Jackie

[Maddysmom26]

Thanks! This will be our first year Homeschooling, so need all the input I can get! I find it so difficult to choose without actually seeing the texts. (Ixl.com) was recommended to me on here for a good practice site, it seems to be great because it also has the state standards and gives reports for where your child stands.

So I was trying to find something to go along with that. She really liked the looks of LOF. Because of how its written.. (Shes a big Diary of Wimpy kid fan!) and I think it reminded her of that style.

I also looked at math mammouth and showed her the sample pages but she didnt seem thrilled about it.

wow , its a good thing I have several months to get this all together! ;)

[Aludlam]

Where is the best place to buy / see samples of LOF? I have a 2nd grader, but am intrigued by this program.

 

thanks

Angela

[Maddysmom26]

http://www.stanleyschmidt.com/FredGauss/11catofbooks.html

 

This is where I found info. :)

 

Lindsay

[branycbur]

You'd want to start with the Fractions and Decimals & Percents books, but those aren't really a complete curriculum. After that you could do Prealgebra & Biology, but again I wouldn't really consider that complete. I'm not familiar with ixl.com, but unless your child is exceptionally mathy and is truly ready for Prealgebra in 5th grade, you'd want something that included quite a bit of basic math practice, as well as explanations for things that might not be clear just from LoF. Most people use LoF as a supplement to another program until you start Algebra. (We're using it with Math Mammoth.)

 

I was wondering about this as well...thanks for the information. I was thinking we could add it to Saxon and do Saxon M-Th and LOF on F.

[Brindee]

My dd did the two LoF books mentioned by Jackie, plus Singapore 5A and 5B. Those worked well for her. Totally different approaches, which kept it interesting!

 

Even doing both of those LoF books doesn't come close to a full year of curriculum. If you use Singapore or some other thing along with them to enhance/supplement the learning, that would work well!

[DarlaS]

My dd did the two LoF books mentioned by Jackie, plus Singapore 5A and 5B. Those worked well for her. Totally different approaches, which kept it interesting!

 

Even doing both of those LoF books doesn't come close to a full year of curriculum. If you use Singapore or some other thing along with them to enhance/supplement the learning, that would work well!

 

:iagree:

 

My dd could work through both books in one semester of gr.5, but she would not get enough practice to really retain what she learned (and she's a bright kid).

 

What then? Prealgebra? LOF is a supplement--no matter what the author says (Sorry Stanley! We still love you! :D).

 

Those traditional math books full of practice are, whether we like it or not, a necessary thing. You could liken it to taking weekly piano lessons without practicing in between. The best teacher and programs in the world won't make you a musician without YOU putting in the hours of practice.

[DarlaS]

Okay.. So Ive gone over a many Math options and have decided on LOF to start 5th grade in Sept. ALong with a practice site ixl.com .

 

My question is .. which LOF should I start her on for 5th grade level?

 

 

Thank you:)

Lindsay

 

That's a neat site!

 

That could help a lot, but I'd still get her something that required working problems with a pencil. Something about that builds memory more efficiently.

[Brindee]

:iagree:

 

My dd could work through both books in one semester of gr.5, but she would not get enough practice to really retain what she learned (and she's a bright kid).

 

What then? Prealgebra? LOF is a supplement--no matter what the author says (Sorry Stanley! We still love you! :D).

 

Those traditional math books full of practice are, whether we like it or not, a necessary thing. You could liken it to taking weekly piano lessons without practicing in between. The best teacher and programs in the world won't make you a musician without YOU putting in the hours of practice.

I think those first 2 books are not a complete curriculum for a year, but the rest of them are, especially if you get the Home Companion. People have looked at the TOCs and compared them to other math programs, and they are quite similar, covering the same things, so I figure the Beginning Algebra on up ARE complete programs.

 

Now, that is said based on what others have said on here (you can use the search engine to find threads/comments on LoF), not by my own personal experience. :001_smile:

[Corraleno]

LOF is a supplement--no matter what the author says

 

In fairness to Stanley, he does say that the PreAlgebra books are supplements and not a complete curriculum. Beginning Alg, Advanced Alg, and Trig all have Home Companions with lesson schedules and extra practice problems, which make them a complete curriculum, and the Geometry, Statistics, and Calculus books are HUGE. The scope & sequence for the Alg through Calculus books are comparable to other texts. I own a complete set of LoF books, as well as numerous "regular" math texts (like Lial's, Jacobs, Larson), and I do think LoF books are stand-alone courses for students who "get" that style of presentation.

 

It's true that some kids may need more practice than LoF provides, but there are parents on this forum whose kids use the LoF books as stand-alone math texts and do just fine. It really depends on the student and how much practice they need to cement the concepts.

 

Jackie

[Pam B]

Maddysmom26,

cbd.com has a lot of books you can look through online, or at least samples. I like to look at the Table of Contents, at least. Also, try Amazon, they let you look through some of their books as well. As a last resort, I google the book and the word "sample".

 

HTH

[Pam B]

LOF is a real-life math book, right? I was thinking of using that with my 6th & 7th graders. Is LOF the best real-life math?

[Corraleno]

By "real life" do you mean based on a story? If so, then yes, LoF is "real life." But if your definition of "real life" would exclude a 5 year old math professor at KITTENS University with a rectangular head and a pet llama, then no it's not "real life." :D

 

You can see sample chapters of all the books here:

http://www.stanleyschmidt.com/FredGauss/index2.html

 

Jackie

[dsacco]

My dd is doing LOF Fractions now (late 4th grade) along with re-memorizing all her multiplication facts and using CLE.

 

She also reads stuff like "The Number Devil", "Sir Cumference......" and things like that as "living" math books.

[Pam B]

Corraleno,

 

You are a funny one! :D

 

See, you caught me, I haven't had time to actually LOOK at the books.

 

BUSTED!:smilielol5:

[DarlaS]

In fairness to Stanley, he does say that the PreAlgebra books are supplements and not a complete curriculum. Beginning Alg, Advanced Alg, and Trig all have Home Companions with lesson schedules and extra practice problems, which make them a complete curriculum, and the Geometry, Statistics, and Calculus books are HUGE. The scope & sequence for the Alg through Calculus books are comparable to other texts. I own a complete set of LoF books, as well as numerous "regular" math texts (like Lial's, Jacobs, Larson), and I do think LoF books are stand-alone courses for students who "get" that style of presentation.

 

It's true that some kids may need more practice than LoF provides, but there are parents on this forum whose kids use the LoF books as stand-alone math texts and do just fine. It really depends on the student and how much practice they need to cement the concepts.

 

Jackie

 

We are talking about a fifth grader--not a high school student. I stand by my earlier assertion that she has a ways to go before she no longer benefits from frequent written practice.

 

FWIW, I have all the books except statistics. Huge is relative. The books are more text than problems--and while that certainly is a great hook, I expect more practice than even the home companions add (about 6-10 problems for each lesson).

 

I'm convinced after doing these they may know the concept--or I would not have bought the books in the first place, but will they know it with the level of confidence a program with a lot more of the "dreaded drill" would give them? That's what I can't be sure of.

[Corraleno]

We are talking about a fifth grader--not a high school student. I stand by my earlier assertion that she has a ways to go before she no longer benefits from frequent written practice.

 

I'm convinced after doing these they may know the concept--or I would not have bought the books in the first place, but will they know it with the level of confidence a program with a lot more of the "dreaded drill" would give them? That's what I can't be sure of.

Oh, I certainly wasn't arguing with whether your 5th grade daughter needed more practice. But I thought from your statements (below) that you were saying LoF simply could not be used as a stand-alone program regardless of what the author says, and that the drill & practice in traditional math books were "a necessary thing" for all kids. I was just pointing out that some kids actually don't need all that extra practice, and for many families LoF works just fine as a stand-alone curriculum.

 

LOF is a supplement--no matter what the author says <snip>

Those traditional math books full of practice are, whether we like it or not, a necessary thing. You could liken it to taking weekly piano lessons without practicing in between. The best teacher and programs in the world won't make you a musician without YOU putting in the hours of practice.

 

Jackie

[DarlaS]

But I thought from your statements (below) that you were saying LoF simply could not be used as a stand-alone program regardless of what the author says, and that the drill & practice in traditional math books were "a necessary thing" for all kids. I was just pointing out that some kids actually don't need all that extra practice, and for many families LoF works just fine as a stand-alone curriculum.

 

Jackie

 

I pretty much was saying that. I'll believe the extra practice is not necessary when a kid goes off to be a math major using only LOF. I have yet to hear of that happening. It's too new.

 

The kids that understand the concept, move on and never forget it are rare. Very rare. I believe I have one, and he still does the work. Being faster and more fluent can't be a bad thing.

 

He also can pound out a pretty good essay. He'll still be doing more of them before taking that SAT until he can do them blindfolded with one hand tied behind his back (not really--but close ;)).

 

Maybe I'm just a mean mom though. I can live with that. :D

[Corraleno]

I pretty much was saying that. I'll believe the extra practice is not necessary when a kid goes off to be a math major using only LOF. I have yet to hear of that happening.

Are you saying that those parents whose kids are using LoF as their stand-alone math program just don't know what they're doing? Why would a student have to go on to be a math major to "prove" LoF can be a stand-alone curriculum? :confused:

 

And just because you haven't personally heard of anyone doing that, doesn't mean it's never happened. Actually, I would think LoF would be far more appealing to a gifted math student than TT would be, yet TT is considered a stand-alone curriculum, isn't it?

 

The kids that understand the concept, move on and never forget it are rare. Very rare.

Maybe not as rare as you think. Many gifted kids not only "get" concepts quickly, they are bored to tears with constant drill and repetition. My DS isn't even particularly "mathy," but once he gets a concept, he gets it, and it sticks. He's very visual ~ he just needs to "see" it and then he gets it. Doing a hundred problems does not help him "get it" more. DH is the same way.

 

However, I understand that not all kids are just like mine, and I would never make a blanket statement that a certain curriculum won't work for anyone else's kids just because I might not choose it for mine.

 

Jackie

[buddhabelly]

Just wanted to add that Singapore 5A and 5B (Textbook and Workbook) would flesh out a fifth grade year nicely. I would do Singapore 5A, then LOF Fractions, then Singapore 5B, then Decimals/Percents. But you will probably want to plan the year out ahead of time (1/4 of the school year for each "part"), and then slow down as needed (or speed up if there is too much repetition at times).

 

Singapore CWP (Challenging Word Problems) 5 will keep you hopping in the summer if you need to keep up your skills.

 

Have fun!

 

Julie

[Maddysmom26]

Thanks Julie, Ill have to check out Singapore! :)

[titianmom]

Mine was fine and "got it" until Algebra. She gets Algebra...but then promptly forgets it and has to relearn it again.

 

So, in elementary math I'd say yeah, if your child gets it feel free to move one and don't worry about all the drill.

 

But in HS math? Totally different story IMO.

 

I used to get A's and B's in HS. Couldn't tell you anything about Alg a month after the class was over. Why? Because unlike elementary math, you never use Alg in real life, esp during HS. So you lose it.

 

Unless there's some way to review information over and over, at least every now and then, you will forget a great deal of HS math.

 

I ordered LoF Beginning Alg and now I'm wondering if I made a mistake, but time will tell. :) Hopefully Fred goes over old concepts and practices old problems now and then as a review.

 

Kim

[Corraleno]

I'm sure this is true for many (perhaps even most) people, but it's not true for everyone. For some people, once they "get" the concept, they get it and they don't forget it ~ just like learning to ride a bike or learning to read. Some people could go for decades without riding a bike, then hop on and ride with no problem. If most people were left on a desert island for 20 years, they would not forget how to read. For some people, the same is true for math ~ they just don't need all that drill & repetition to retain it. In fact, I'd say that drill & repetition are the reason I ended up hating math, even though it was a subject where I could get straight As with almost no effort.

 

I took the SAT in 11th grade, with no prep whatsoever, and scored in the 98th percentile in math, despite having had zero algebra since 8th grade. (I took geometry in 9th, and that was it for math.) Four years after that I took the GRE (again with no prep) and still scored in the 95th percentile for math, despite having not looked at an algebra text in 7 years. I'm not bragging; it's not something I can take credit for, because it's just the way my brain is wired. And I don't think it's all that rare either ~ DH is the same way, and I suspect DS is, too. Once they "get it," they get it, and it really sticks. Drill and repetition don't make the concepts any "stickier."

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to point out that the idea that all students need lots and lots of drill/practice/review in order to retain math is simply not true for everyone, any more than the idea that all kids needs tons and tons of grammar drill & review, or spelling drill & review. Some do; some don't. I think this is an area where parents really need to pay attention to their kids, because forcing a child who doesn't need all that drill & repetition to do it anyway could just end up making the child hate math.

 

Jackie

(ducking tomatoes....)

[patchfire]

Why? Because unlike elementary math, you never use Alg in real life, esp during HS. So you lose it.

 

Unless there's some way to review information over and over, at least every now and then, you will forget a great deal of HS math.

 

This is very prescriptive and does not hold true universally.

 

We use Life of Fred as our main program. Dd has done other work with fractions, decimals, and percents outside of the program, and we will stop between Beg Alg and do AoPS courses before continuing to Adv Alg. Life of Fred just works with her brain. Doing pages of problems would overwhelm her, frustrate her, and kill her love of math, without really adding to her understanding. No thanks. It's fine that for many kids - maybe even most - it doesn't work as a stand-alone curriculum. That doesn't mean it can't for some kids.

[Luckymama]

I'm sure this is true for many (perhaps even most) people, but it's not true for everyone. For some people, once they "get" the concept, they get it and they don't forget it ~ just like learning to ride a bike or learning to read. Some people could go for decades without riding a bike, then hop on and ride with no problem. If most people were left on a desert island for 20 years, they would not forget how to read. For some people, the same is true for math ~ they just don't need all that drill & repetition to retain it. In fact, I'd say that drill & repetition are the reason I ended up hating math, even though it was a subject where I could get straight As with almost no effort.

Jackie

(ducking tomatoes....)

 

I absolutely agree with this. My 15yo can remember the most obscure grammar rule. It makes her crazy to have to repeat something in her highest-level-possible freshmen English class that she learned in 7th grade. And yet she cannot remember her French vocabulary despite all the drills we do at home...

 

Two years ago my 10yo mastered all the math that her "advanced" class is learning this year. She hates it, which is one of the reasons why she'll be homeschooled next year.

 

You just have to know your kid and his/her learning styles, abilities, etc.

[titianmom]

I'm sure this is true for many (perhaps even most) people, but it's not true for everyone. For some people, once they "get" the concept, they get it and they don't forget it ~ just like learning to ride a bike or learning to read. Some people could go for decades without riding a bike, then hop on and ride with no problem.

 

I dunno; I was a bit wobbly when I first got on, and I'd lost all of my bravado on the bike after all those centuries...er, years of not riding.

 

If most people were left on a desert island for 20 years, they would not forget how to read.

 

That's because most people would have read sooooo much beforehand (assuming adults, here), in other words, drill and killed sooo much that the language was permanent, to include listening to language from infancy.

 

For some people, the same is true for math ~ they just don't need all that drill & repetition to retain it. In fact, I'd say that drill & repetition are the reason I ended up hating math, even though it was a subject where I could get straight As with almost no effort.

 

I took the SAT in 11th grade, with no prep whatsoever, and scored in the 98th percentile in math, despite having had zero algebra since 8th grade. (I took geometry in 9th, and that was it for math.) Four years after that I took the GRE (again with no prep) and still scored in the 95th percentile for math, despite having not looked at an algebra text in 7 years. I'm not bragging; it's not something I can take credit for, because it's just the way my brain is wired. And I don't think it's all that rare either ~ DH is the same way, and I suspect DS is, too. Once they "get it," they get it, and it really sticks. Drill and repetition don't make the concepts any "stickier."

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to point out that the idea that all students need lots and lots of drill/practice/review in order to retain math is simply not true for everyone, any more than the idea that all kids needs tons and tons of grammar drill & review, or spelling drill & review. Some do; some don't. I think this is an area where parents really need to pay attention to their kids, because forcing a child who doesn't need all that drill & repetition to do it anyway could just end up making the child hate math.

 

Jackie

(ducking tomatoes....)

 

You can always skip the extra drill that isn't needed. Who's forcing drill on anyone?

 

However, you can't make up drill that doesn't exist.

 

Kim

[Corraleno]

You can always skip the extra drill that isn't needed. Who's forcing drill on anyone?

Thousands of school teachers all over America (and the world, I presume).

 

I don't remember ever being given the option of declining to do math homework on the grounds that I already knew the material and didn't need the review.

 

Jackie

[Matryoshka]

IYou can always skip the extra drill that isn't needed. Who's forcing drill on anyone?

 

Ah, but you are forgetting those of us with a compulsive need to do everything that's in a book for fear of "missing" something. I can skip things in supplements, but I have a harder time if it's in my "main" curriculum. And it's extra hard if it's a workbook - blank workbook pages make me itch. :tongue_smilie:

 

However, you can't make up drill that doesn't exist.

 

 

Sure you can. There are tons of places online to make up your own drill worksheets. Or, you can use a supplementary resource (which I tend to like better, because instead of more of the same problems, I get problems from a different angle).

[Maddysmom26]

Well, I decided to order LOF, and went ahead last night and ordered fractions and the decimals.

I will review it but i think its going to work for us along with the ixl.com website, that will be review/practice/homework/tests to be sure we are keeping up and on track with our NY standards.

 

Keeping fingers crossed that its going to workout! Im getting dizzy reviewing all these curriculums and opinions! ;)

[Ginevra]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to point out that the idea that all students need lots and lots of drill/practice/review in order to retain math is simply not true for everyone, any more than the idea that all kids needs tons and tons of grammar drill & review, or spelling drill & review. Some do; some don't. I think this is an area where parents really need to pay attention to their kids, because forcing a child who doesn't need all that drill & repetition to do it anyway could just end up making the child hate math.

:iagree: I totally agree. I am a huge fan of LOF. It's working wonders for dd and it's working wonders for me. I constantly find myself saying, "Oh, I get it!" and once I get it, there would simply be no point in doing 40 more problems.

 

Also, finding additional practice if it's needed is very easy. There have been a couple of LOF concepts that I wasn't clear on and I found it online. Problem solved. I'm not a fan of skipping pages or problems in a drill-intensive program. I feel that it leads to bad habits with the kids; they start thinking if it's too long or it's a lot, we just skip it. :toetap05:

 

As an aside, I think LOF benefits from doing it continuously. I think retention could be lost by the simple fact of making it a supplement you only do on Fridays. Otherwise, it's like trying to pick up the thread of a story over and over every week. But, that's just me. I would never presume that what works for myself and/or my kids applies universally to everyone.

[Maddysmom26]

I just wanted to add, that we received our LOF books today and my daughter is sooo excited! I breezed through them and just knew that she was going to like them! She just came running in the room.. mom where are my fred books??? I want to read through them!! ;)

So now on to choosing the rest of her curriculum ! :)