Anyone a landlord?

[CAMom]

Hi Everyone~

 

I am currently executing my grandmother's estate. She had two properties and they both sold very quickly and are both in the middle of 45 day escrows.

 

One property has a tenant who has been there for many years. She was so cooperative at first. But, she's clearly unhappy that the house sold so quickly and she doesn't want to move so soon.

 

I received a letter from her today stating that she is upset. She's mad that repair work is being done while she's still living there. Well, the repair work has to be done before the close of escrow. That's the point of escrow!;) She doesn't like anyone coming into the house to do work while she's not there but she's never there to let anyone work.:confused:

 

So, after she explained why she's so upset, she says that she's not going to pay any rent for February or the first 10 days of March. Escrow is set to close on March 10th and she doesn't want to move until that very day.

 

If you deal with tenants at all, what would be your advice in this situation?

 

TIA,

[missmoe]

Get a lawyer. What does the rental agreement say as to her vacating the property? Was it a month to month or long-term lease? What does the rental agreement say about you as the owner entering the property to do repairs? Even if you weren't selling, repairs would be necessary occasionally. Usually this is addressed in the rental agreement. Is the new owner aware of her presence? This may turn into their problem.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

I'm a landlord. In our jurisdiction, you'd be expected to give her at least 60 days notice. There are some circumstances under which she'd get the last month rent free too.

 

If it was me, I'd give her the time rent free just to recognize a long time relationship and the inconvenience of the sale and repairs.

[CAMom]

Get a lawyer. What does the rental agreement say as to her vacating the property? Was it a month to month or long-term lease? What does the rental agreement say about you as the owner entering the property to do repairs? Even if you weren't selling, repairs would be necessary occasionally. Usually this is addressed in the rental agreement. Is the new owner aware of her presence? This may turn into their problem.

 

She doesn't have a rental agreement. My grandma rented it to her over 20 years ago and they did everything by word of mouth. She's on month to month rent.

 

Yes, the new owner knows about her and has met her on a couple of occasions.

 

I'm a landlord. In our jurisdiction, you'd be expected to give her at least 60 days notice. There are some circumstances under which she'd get the last month rent free too.

 

If it was me, I'd give her the time rent free just to recognize a long time relationship and the inconvenience of the sale and repairs.

 

How could you be expected to give a 60 day notice if the house sells?:confused: This one sold after only 3 days on the market. She knew a few months before we put it on the market that it was going on right after the first of the year (my grandma died August 15 so it was 5 months before it went on the market) and we informed her by phone the very day we accepted the offer which was over a weekend.

 

I followed up that phone call with a letter informing her of the day escrow was closing. So, in writing, she got a 40 day notice.

 

You know, maybe if she would have approached us nicely, I would feel better about this. But, her letter was not nice.;) Plus, the missed rent is just about the same amount as the general repairs.

 

I'm frustrated with her lack of cooperation. You can't just decide for yourself that you're not going to pay rent, can you? Doesn't that make her a squatter?:001_huh:

[missmoe]

How much time you need to give her varies from state to state her in the US. I'm not sure what makes someone a squatter so can't answer that. It will take a lot of effort to get your rent, if she doesn't pay. I would most likely let it go, if it were me. Let her move out the day before escrow ends or let the next owner deal with it. As for the repairs, do you have a key to get into the property? Again different states have different requirements as to how much notice you must give her before entering the property for something like repairs or an inspection.

[kokotg]

I was a landlord in MA for a few years. Laws are different everywhere, but when we were dealing with trying to evict our tenant, we were told repeatedly that getting the tenant out is considered a win in housing court. I.e. you don't even think about getting back rent. Honestly, if your pretty confident that she's going to leave when she says she will, I wouldn't worry for a second about the rent. She could easily decide to stay put and make you force her out and that would wreak havoc on your house selling plans. Even assuming you are completely in the right and she doesn't have any legitimate complaints against you at all, evictions take time and can be very expensive. You could potentially take her to small claims court after she moves out and try to collect the back rent, but even if you win you might never actually see the money.

[Carol in Cal.]

They have two books about being a landlord, specifically for California. One is just about evicting people. Get them, and then figure out what to do. They are easy to read, and very practical. Nolo Press is in Berkeley, and they have a good website.

[Melissa in FL]

I am a landlord for two houses and have owned others over the years.

 

Honestly, this is a huge problem for you. If your agreement with the new owner is that the tenant would be out the day of closing and the tenant won't leave it will stop the closing. If you really want to get her out I would tell her that you will give her the month of February rent free, give her her full security deposit back, and PAY her an additional month's rent if she is out by the end of February. Give her the proposal in writing and have her sign it if she agrees. Try to get any work that needs to be done on the outside done now and then line everything up for the inside to be done during the 10 days before closing (offer bonuses for work done early). Seriously, in this market you do NOT want to lose your buyer. What ever you have to pay to get that tenant out ASAP do it. As a back up plan, give her a three day notice (or the equivalent in your state) and begin eviction for non-payment for February as a back-up. If you have to evict you will probably lose your buyer. That's why you should pay the tenant to leave.

 

It may sound like the wrong thing to do, but you don't have any other way to get her out now. Eviction will take to long and the closing will probably not go through with a tenant in the house. The proper thing would have been to get the tenant to sign an agreement stating that they would leave thirty days after the house sold and would have the last month free (for keeping it nice to sell). Also, your purchase agreement should have stipulated a 60 day closing time limit. That way you would have had 30 days to get the house ready for the new buyers.

 

Since this wasn't how it happened, pay her to leave now. It's been her house for many years and she obviously does not want to leave. Making it worth her while will hopefully keep your sale.

Best of luck

Melissa

[Carol in Cal.]

...there is a difference between what is legal and what is practical.

 

Legally she should probably leave and let you do repairs and all of that. From a practical standpoint, though, she can cause you a lot of trouble if you don't placate her. She could trash the house. She could delay the close of escrow. She could make the sale fall through. None of this would be legal or ethical, but she could still do this.

 

I think that you really have to shmooze her quite a bit right now to ease her out of there on time.

[CAMom]

 

Since this wasn't how it happened, pay her to leave now. It's been her house for many years and she obviously does not want to leave. Making it worth her while will hopefully keep your sale.

Best of luck

Melissa

 

Thanks for the advice everyone! This is why I'm not a landlord.;)

 

I inherited this mess! This woman has been renting this house for all these years so far below fair market value that it's not even funny! She's even bought a new house in another state and she's already closed on it but she just doesn't want to move until she feels like it!

 

It's been hard for me to deal with all of this as my grandma was my mother figure and it's a challenge to grieve this loss while dealing with the cr@p, you know?

[Dobela]

Thanks for the advice everyone! This is why I'm not a landlord.;)

 

I inherited this mess! This woman has been renting this house for all these years so far below fair market value that it's not even funny! She's even bought a new house in another state and she's already closed on it but she just doesn't want to move until she feels like it!

 

It's been hard for me to deal with all of this as my grandma was my mother figure and it's a challenge to grieve this loss while dealing with the cr@p, you know?

I recently attended a landlords meeting with my dad and learned a huge deal. One is that some will rent below value if the renter has been there a long time, the property is paid off or close to it, and the renter is actually a good renter (not many demands, pays on time, etc). 20 years would make her an EXCELLENT renter for many landlords. She is a dream for many and likely was for your grandmother or she wouldn't have been there so long. Renting it to her below value was an incentive to keep her there instead of dealing with unknowns who may have done more damage or taken advantage of your grandmother.

 

I know this lady is being a pain right now, but maybe you can rectify it in a nice way. Apologize for your inexperience, give her some free rent, and thank her for being so dependable for your grandmother.

 

I also want to say that once we were in a rental that was sold quickly (to the first person who looked at it the 2nd day it was on the market). Our landlord cut our rent in half the last 2 months in exchange for our patience during the inconveniences of repairs, inspections, and all that. We very much appreciated her consideration because all of those things were a pain to us, and we couldn't find another home to move into until the last minute.

[Laura Corin]

How could you be expected to give a 60 day notice if the house sells?:confused: This one sold after only 3 days on the market.

 

But here the handover date is agreed between the buyer and the seller. There's flexibility so long as both sides are willing.

 

I would give the tenant a rent-free period in return for her cooperation.

 

Laura

[....]

We are landlords. We own a house in MO that we rent out. We also RENT a house in Texas (I know, it's weird). So, I can see both sides...

 

I think one of your obstacles is that you do not have a written-contract lease. These clearly state all expectations and would have provided a window for the lease to expire, so the tenant can move. You may need to consult an attorney. Also, yes, all states are different.

 

If she's been there for 20 years, she's not going to be able to move overnight. It also sounds like she's an older lady and probably won't want to leave her home of 20 years. I agree with the other posters about free rent. I would not like it if our landlord sold the house we are currently renting and I had to have people come in here and disrupt my day. That would infuriate me. However, you need to get business taken care of-based on the situation you (unforunately) inherited.

 

I agree with offering free rent to off-set her inconvenience (that's what I would do for my tenant), give her a firm move-out date and you will probably need to consult an attorney.

 

Also, (this is just me) but I would never have a house on the market with a tenant. If you set a move-out date, you can get the house on the market after she leaves. Then, you won't have to irritate her with the house showings, people coming in and out and she has to clean, the house will be vacant and can be shown anytime, etc... It will sell faster vacant. This is just my personal preference.

 

I try to view my tenant as a customer (which, he pretty much is). I do everything I can not to bother/inconvenience him.

 

Sorry you were handed such a mess! Good luck!

[CAMom]

 

 

Also, (this is just me) but I would never have a house on the market with a tenant. If you set a move-out date, you can get the house on the market after she leaves. Then, you won't have to irritate her with the house showings, people coming in and out and she has to clean, the house will be vacant and can be shown anytime, etc... It will sell faster vacant. This is just my personal preference.

 

I try to view my tenant as a customer (which, he pretty much is). I do everything I can not to bother/inconvenience him.

 

Sorry you were handed such a mess! Good luck!

 

I hear what you're saying but I don't know what other choice I had.

 

My grandma died August 15th. My husband spoke with the tenant less than a week later to inform her of the death. At that time, we offered to sell her the house because she had expressed interest multiple times in the past to my grandma that she wanted to buy it.

 

In October, we checked in with her to see if she had made a decision. She said she had decided not to buy it and had, instead, purchased a house in another state. At that time she said that she was planning on staying in the rental for several more months until she was ready to move.

 

We told her that we would be putting the house on the market in January and that she could stay until it sold if that's what she wanted to do. She told us that she would be cooperative as it went on the market.

 

Much to all of our surprise, the house sold after three days to the first person who looked at it. We received a full price offer on a Saturday and accepted it on a Sunday. We called her that very same day to tell her we'd accepted the offer.

 

I can sympathize that she's having to move out of a long term home but she's already purchased a new one. I could not just wait until she was good and ready to move before I put this one on the market. I have the interest of the named heirs in the estate to look after as well.

 

I suppose I could have just sent her a letter telling her she had 30 days to vacate on January 1st and then put the house on the market February 1st but after the conversation that she would be cooperative, we didn't think she was going to be a problem. We also didn't anticipate it selling so fast and figured she probably still had months to live there while it was on the market. That's obviously what she was betting on, too.

 

Due to all of the advice here, we're pretty sure we'll just let the money go. It's not that big of a deal. It just makes me mad that someone just decides not to pay there rent and tells you they're not going to do it but they're not moving out any earlier.

 

I really appreciate all of the input and advice! It's definitely influenced the way I plan to handle the situation!

[....]

:grouphug:

 

Good luck. It's an especially sticky situation since your Grandma was renting to a friend with a verbal contract. I hope everything goes much better from here on out. I also hope the lady doesn't give you any more grief. We had a death in our family this week also and it catches you off guard - how quickly things need to be taken care of... :crying: We weren't prepared financially.

 

Good luck! :grouphug:

[PollyOR]

...there is a difference between what is legal and what is practical.

 

Legally she should probably leave and let you do repairs and all of that. From a practical standpoint, though, she can cause you a lot of trouble if you don't placate her. She could trash the house. She could delay the close of escrow. She could make the sale fall through. None of this would be legal or ethical, but she could still do this.

 

I think that you really have to shmooze her quite a bit right now to ease her out of there on time.

 

:iagree:

[Brilliant]

I'm sorry this is happening to you.

 

One thing to keep in mind while you're trying to think good thoughts about how this is turning out... is that as a tenant, she has some rights to control your access to the property, and your contractors' access. She could have made it really hard for you to get the work done. At a minimum, she could have requested 24 hour notice every time someone came over.

 

If you really want the rent and/or want her out, I think you can give her a 72-hour notice to vacate because of non-payment of rent. You can probably find out how to do this by searching the web.

 

Good luck.

[ConnieB]

Hi Everyone~

 

I am currently executing my grandmother's estate. She had two properties and they both sold very quickly and are both in the middle of 45 day escrows.

 

One property has a tenant who has been there for many years. She was so cooperative at first. But, she's clearly unhappy that the house sold so quickly and she doesn't want to move so soon.

 

I received a letter from her today stating that she is upset. She's mad that repair work is being done while she's still living there. Well, the repair work has to be done before the close of escrow. That's the point of escrow!;) She doesn't like anyone coming into the house to do work while she's not there but she's never there to let anyone work.:confused:

 

So, after she explained why she's so upset, she says that she's not going to pay any rent for February or the first 10 days of March. Escrow is set to close on March 10th and she doesn't want to move until that very day.

 

If you deal with tenants at all, what would be your advice in this situation?

 

TIA,

 

 

Depends on what your rental agreement says.....typically they have a clause in about repair work, and that landlord can enter the premises with reasonable notice for repair work, and no notice for emergencies. If your agreement has that clause send her a COPY (obviously not the original) of the agreement she signed with that highlighted. Let her know that if she fails to pay rent then you will have no choice but to turn it over to your attorney for collection (since you can't threaten her with eviction, lol). Sounds more like she's hoping to get some free rent by being angry at you and hoping you'll just give it to her instead of deal with it. You'll have to decide whether to actually pursue it if she doesn't pay the rent, but that will probably depend on how much money you're talking about versus the attorney fees (and in most states you could actually just go to small claims for this and not need an attorney.....and keep the letter that says she's not paying because of the repair work, and of course take your copy of the agreement that says you have the right to do the work....because I guarantee she'll have a long list of things you "did" and why she didn't pay rent, lol....but if your agreement says you can do the work and that's her reason for non-payment she should lose, and have to pay you rent, plus late fees per the agreement, plus court costs. If you were to hire a lawyer chances are good that you'd be awarded attorney fees). Now...collecting is another story...so be sure that you keep everything you have on the lady, where she banks would be great and if she pays rent by check you will have that information...or where she works.

 

Did the rental agreement have a deposit? Hopefully it was one month's rent so you'll have the February rent by not returning the deposit to her, then it may not be worth the effort for the 10 days of March. Assuming of course she doesn't trash the place on her way out!

 

Good luck!

[ConnieB]

I hear what you're saying but I don't know what other choice I had.

 

My grandma died August 15th. My husband spoke with the tenant less than a week later to inform her of the death. At that time, we offered to sell her the house because she had expressed interest multiple times in the past to my grandma that she wanted to buy it.

 

In October, we checked in with her to see if she had made a decision. She said she had decided not to buy it and had, instead, purchased a house in another state. At that time she said that she was planning on staying in the rental for several more months until she was ready to move.

 

We told her that we would be putting the house on the market in January and that she could stay until it sold if that's what she wanted to do. She told us that she would be cooperative as it went on the market.

 

Much to all of our surprise, the house sold after three days to the first person who looked at it. We received a full price offer on a Saturday and accepted it on a Sunday. We called her that very same day to tell her we'd accepted the offer.

 

I can sympathize that she's having to move out of a long term home but she's already purchased a new one. I could not just wait until she was good and ready to move before I put this one on the market. I have the interest of the named heirs in the estate to look after as well.

 

I suppose I could have just sent her a letter telling her she had 30 days to vacate on January 1st and then put the house on the market February 1st but after the conversation that she would be cooperative, we didn't think she was going to be a problem. We also didn't anticipate it selling so fast and figured she probably still had months to live there while it was on the market. That's obviously what she was betting on, too.

 

Due to all of the advice here, we're pretty sure we'll just let the money go. It's not that big of a deal. It just makes me mad that someone just decides not to pay there rent and tells you they're not going to do it but they're not moving out any earlier.

 

I really appreciate all of the input and advice! It's definitely influenced the way I plan to handle the situation!

 

 

Ooops, hadn't read this far down the thread before responding.

 

Since it sounds like you haven't given her formal written notice of her need to leave the premises (phone calls won't cut it if she decides to dig her heels in about moving on time.).

 

Today is the 14th.....so you don't technically have 30 days....but I would write her a letter confirming that she has agreed to vacate by March 10 the close of escrow, and perhaps apologize that the workers have to get stuff done during escrow. Might placate her to stop bothering you, but most importantly it puts in writing her need to vacate. Technically she could stall until the 15th (30 days) but it puts you in the position of having given her notice to leave as required by law, so if she's still there you can at least begin eviction proceedings (which require that you gave her the required notice in writing). It will also go better for you with the buyers to have dotted the Is and crossed the Ts if she hasn't moved out, or they could get into the legal fray for your having not given proper notice, etc. Send the letter certified so that you have proof of it's delivery.

[treestarfae]

Is she having a financial problem with hiring movers? Is she having any age related problems. I would make more of an effort to communicate with her since you don't have a rental contract. It is very emotional for people to move sometimes. She may be miffed at certain formalities not being covered since she is a friend. Some elders will act out no matter what legalities are imposed. To me some old school can be stubborn and slow to make decisions. Is she a good family friend?

[Kari C in SC]

I recently attended a landlords meeting with my dad and learned a huge deal. One is that some will rent below value if the renter has been there a long time, the property is paid off or close to it, and the renter is actually a good renter (not many demands, pays on time, etc). 20 years would make her an EXCELLENT renter for many landlords. She is a dream for many and likely was for your grandmother or she wouldn't have been there so long. Renting it to her below value was an incentive to keep her there instead of dealing with unknowns who may have done more damage or taken advantage of your grandmother.

 

I know this lady is being a pain right now, but maybe you can rectify it in a nice way. Apologize for your inexperience, give her some free rent, and thank her for being so dependable for your grandmother.

 

I also want to say that once we were in a rental that was sold quickly (to the first person who looked at it the 2nd day it was on the market). Our landlord cut our rent in half the last 2 months in exchange for our patience during the inconveniences of repairs, inspections, and all that. We very much appreciated her consideration because all of those things were a pain to us, and we couldn't find another home to move into until the last minute.

 

I am a landlord and I agree with this. I had the WORST tenants the first year. We have been happy with our new tenants, but it doesn't look like they are going to stay. I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to get a dependable person to pay my mortgage for the next 20 years. That would be a dream. I would be very flexible with this and let her have her way. If you do, most likely, the closing will go smoothly and all this will be over. Oh and send her down to Florida to rent my house!

[Tea Time]

Hi Everyone~

 

I am currently executing my grandmother's estate. She had two properties and they both sold very quickly and are both in the middle of 45 day escrows.

 

One property has a tenant who has been there for many years. She was so cooperative at first. But, she's clearly unhappy that the house sold so quickly and she doesn't want to move so soon.

 

I received a letter from her today stating that she is upset. She's mad that repair work is being done while she's still living there. Well, the repair work has to be done before the close of escrow. That's the point of escrow!;) She doesn't like anyone coming into the house to do work while she's not there but she's never there to let anyone work.:confused:

 

So, after she explained why she's so upset, she says that she's not going to pay any rent for February or the first 10 days of March. Escrow is set to close on March 10th and she doesn't want to move until that very day.

 

If you deal with tenants at all, what would be your advice in this situation?

 

TIA,

 

You can probably call a property management company to help you. We have used them just for the purpose of getting a tenant out. It would be a lot cheaper than getting a lawyer. Your real estate agent should be helping you with this. :confused:

 

If she fails to pay rent then you can post 3 days notice. After that the police will come make sure she gets out.

 

I would be concerned about saying anything about free rent in return for cooperation. Once you have said the rent is free, then I can't see how you can post notice of failure to pay that rent, and since you have no contract for her to be breaking, then *non-payment of rent* is really all you have to work with if you failed to give her written notice when you put the house on the market. See the problem?

 

Some people work with you, others have no intention of being cooperative. Best to figure out which you are dealing with and then act accordingly.

 

Being a landlord is tough. When it is good, it is very, very good; and when it is bad, it is horrid!

[CAMom]

Just a clarification:

 

I did give her written notice that she had to be out by the close of escrow. I sent it certified mail and received the return receipt.

 

I called her the day I accepted the offer to let her know that a 45 day escrow was opening up and then followed that call up with the written notice.

[TravelingChris]

I think you need to see a real estate lawyer or get a property manager to handle it. SOmeone who is much more knowledgeable about landlord rules then you are. Is this house in California? If so, watch out. California has some of the best tenant protections in the US. Get a lawyer on Monday.

[Tea Time]

Just a clarification:

 

I did give her written notice that she had to be out by the close of escrow. I sent it certified mail and received the return receipt.

 

I called her the day I accepted the offer to let her know that a 45 day escrow was opening up and then followed that call up with the written notice.

 

Sorry, certainly not trying to suggest you were in the wrong. I thought I skimmed that at some point, but wasn't sure. Laws are very supportive of tenants, but I think you are in good shape, especially if she fails to pay rent, so let her threaten away. I think there are some laws surrounding situations where a contract was made with someone who then dies as well.

 

I am also sorry if I come off as callous about this. Moving after so long must be very hard. But while you are busy being kind hearted to her, the people who have the house under contract may not be so kind hearted to you, and you may be liable for delays to the closing. The priority here is the contract that you have with the them. You don't want to lose the buyer nor do you want to end up in default on your contract with them.

 

I really recommend a property manager. It is not that expensive to have them serve notice, and they should be able to tell you if you don't have grounds to do so or if there is some problem with doing so, in which case you could then go on to get a lawyer. You should not have to resort to that though.

 

Of course, it is a crazy world we live in now, and nothing would surprise me anymore.

[CAMom]

Thank you all for taking the time to give such great advice!

 

Today I talked to a friend who works in property management. I also talked to a friend who has several rentals and has dealt with a variety of tenants over the years.

 

My husband spoke with the tenant tonight. We offered that if she would move by February 28th, we would forgo February and the first 10 days of March rent as well as refund January's rent for her trouble. She's going to talk it over with her husband and get back to us.

 

She did sound like it was a possibility. If she does agree, we'll be sure to get it all in writing.

 

It was a very cordial conversation which is why I always have my husband call. He's much better than I am at keeping everything very peaceful!:)

 

Oh, BTW, Chris, yes this house is in CA.