Owning our life choices

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is going around my head a lot lately. And some of the threads lately about making choices for our spouses and children, have added to my thoughts - and my questions.

 

I have two children. My 8 year old, owns her choices whole-heartedly. While I provide the building blocks for a good diet, exercise opportunities and a quality education, she is the one who makes it happen for herself.

 

My 12 year old does not tend to own his choices. I provide the same building blocks as for my 8 year old, but he does often does the minimum and only with pushing and prodding on my part. If he does wrong, he responds by blaming himself and others but not by taking proactive steps to change the wrong into right. I am seeing some changes in him though. Just this year he has started to own his educational choices. And I just heard the timer go off (that he set himself) calling him back to schoolwork.

 

I have a 33 year old relative, facing a long prison sentence, who has never owned his life choices. Even now, he is blaming others for the fact that he got caught, and for having the effrontery to make him face the consequences for his actions.

 

So - how do we coax someone to start to own their life choices? And not only to own them but to decide to make good choices? Because of course, I could just say "Yes, I'm a couch potato. Mea Culpa!" and never have any internal motivation to change. It can't be through nagging or guilting or anything like that, I know that much.

[Liz CA]

When my ds (now 18) was young, I often let the chips fall where there may - within reason of course. What I mean by that is let them experience the natural consequences for their actions. I truly think this is the only way for any human to learn. Some grasp the concept quickly and don't have to experience as much "fall-out" as others. The mere thought of the negative consequences are enough deterrent, others need to feel it, live it and work themselves through it.

Some simple examples:

 

Mom: "If your room is not dusted and the shelves organized by ...insert date...I will go in and dust for you and decide which things are being kept and what is useless clutter because the state of your room is approaching hazardous to one's health."

If he cleans it - nothing happens. If not, I will indeed go in and declutter. This does not mean I will purposely throw out things he likes.

However, the thought of Mom riffling through his stuff was usually enough for him to get motivated.

 

"If your homework is not finished by ..., you will be working this Saturday while your brother/sister is playing with friends."

If homework is not completed or appropriate efforts made, he/she will indeed work on the weekend.

 

Long ramble. Does it make sense? I also recommend the book "Boundaries with Kids" by Cloud & Townsend.

 

[myfunnybunch]

I think this is just plain a struggle for human beings in general. It's so much easier if we can blame others, blame circumstances, blame God, blame our own neurology, blame ______________. It's easier than taking steps to change or take responsibility.

 

One of the best ways to teach our children and understanding how life choices impact us and taking responsibility is to do it ourselves, IMO. I try to point out the results of good choices when my chilren make them and to talk to them about why we make some of the lifestyle choices we make for them and for our whole family, like diet, play, exercise, bedtime and so forth.

 

Cat

[jenL]

I often let the chips fall where there may - within reason of course. What I mean by that is let them experience the natural consequences for their actions. I truly think this is the only way for any human to learn. Some grasp the concept quickly and don't have to experience as much "fall-out" as others. The mere thought of the negative consequences are enough deterrent, others need to feel it, live it and work themselves through it.

 

 

:iagree: I was one of those people who seemed to learn quickly whereas my sister would continuously make the same mistakes. She finally "matured" and figured it out when almost everyone in her life completely backed off and let her figure it out. She was someone who needed to live it, feel it, and work it out on her own in her own time.

 

My youngest sister is 28, and for some reason, nothing is ever her fault. I don't know if she'll ever "get it". She's not in situations where she or others are in danger, but it's often extremely difficult to watch her make the same types of mistakes (job choices, boyfriends). Not all of it is her fault in some ways, however, as she has some friends who clearly enable her and suck up to her whims. The fact that she is enabled does not FORCE her to be accountable to the level that she could be. This is hindering her growth.

 

I think enabling is a big factor for some people in being able own their choices. If one does not have 100% of the consequence be theirs, then it's more difficult for them to truly learn, grasp, and choose to change.

 

Choosing to change is its own evil, for some can't even see that they have the choice. Denial is a very powerful thing, and for many, it absolves them of ownership. For some people, they may not even know they are in denial of their situation/actions/etc so there isn't a base from which they can learn.

 

In many ways it can be a viscious cycle.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I am good at consequences. But some day I won't be there to provide even "natural consequences" (which are still artificial if provided by me).

 

Here's some of the real natural consequences:

 

"If you only eat the minimum of fruits and vegetables that Mom tells you to eat, then when you are on your own you are going to pig out on junk and will most likely have less than vibrant health."

 

"If you only exercise when Mom pushes you out the door, then when you are on your own you are going to be a couch potato and will have a weight problem or at least not be conditioned and will most likely have less than vibrant health."

 

"If you only provide the minimum which is required by the teacher (including mom), you might get good grades but won't have true mastery of the subject because you won't want to retain it." and it's corollary, "If you only provide the minimum which is required by the teacher through high school, you might totally blow off college which has more open deadlines and will waste tons of money and potential."

 

Is it manipulative or an appropriate learning tool to ask a child to come up with their own plan for managing a certain aspect of life - like say, an exercise plan - and then help them to follow through?

[Impish]

I think 'Not MY Fault' is a societal disease.

 

Look at any criminal court case. Every defendant is a victim.

 

We (society) constantly excuses negative behaviour. We give lighter sentances to someone who claims childhood abuse, substance addiction (esp when paired w/childhood abuse).

 

Even in family court, 'it can't really be THAT bad' is a common attitude. CPS will apprehend, reunite, over and over again because a judge values parental rights, sanctity of the bio unit over child safety and emotional well being. Same goes if a parent claims suspicious/abusive behaviour of an ex spouse...It can't be THAT bad, exes are bitter, vindictive, etc...and granted, some are...but what of the ones that are residing in a shelter, Mom's bruises still yellow? "Did he hit the children?"

 

I'm sick of the litany of excuses. I see it in public, when a parent sits calling out that her child has ODD/ADD/ADHD/XYZ while her kid terrorizes the others on the playground, making no move to actually get off her butt and deal with her kid. Or others that are SURE that their child is a target of the entire school, thats why he was suspended, not HIS fault he shoved a girl to the ground, the other kids had excluded him from their game at recess. Same mother admits to hating school breaks, esp summer, because she can't 'handle' him...She, the mother can't, but the school should.

 

Thieves breaking into a home can sue homeowner for injury. Homeowners can be put in jail for protecting their families from criminals.

 

Its "Not MY Fault" is one of the reasons I'm h*ll bent on home schooling from now til all my kids graduate. I want them to be responsible their acts, held completely accountable, not excused and swept aside.

[Rosie_0801]

Is it manipulative or an appropriate learning tool to ask a child to come up with their own plan for managing a certain aspect of life - like say, an exercise plan - and then help them to follow through?

 

Sometimes manipulation is appropriate. *shrug* I think you get a long way by expecting things of kids, but some can be pushed further than others. My dh seems to have issues with household tasks because he was never expected to take charge of anything, just to do it when he was told. He dutifully did what he was told, more or less when he was told, then promptly forgot the chore existed. At my place, I was the oldest and had a mother with depression. If I didn't do the washing, we'd have been running about in the nuddy and I didn't want that!

 

Rosie

[Jayne J]

You know that old saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"?

 

I think, (and I may be way off base here) that the real question isn't how to make people own their own choices, but is *when* to *let* them own their own choices. The fact is, the world is full of couch potatoes, and less than vibrantly healthy people. The world is full of people who did the minimum in school and are facing the consequences. And they aren't all that way because their parents didn't tell them. Someday our children are going to go off and be grown ups and they will make choices we don't like. And we can't do a thing about it.

Now, 12 is too young to throw up your hands and give your child up to his bad habits. You can continue to show him why and how to do the things he needs to. But eventually, if you've led him to the water and taught him the way and he still chooses not to drink... well, thankfully the world is also full of people who learned by experience, the hard way. (I count myself among them.)

[lionfamily1999]

Maybe a foray into the consequences could help? Dh used to be a fast food junky. We watched Supersize Me together and he's cleaned up his act (mostly). Maybe, if you did some research (together) into the ultimate consequences (obesity, diabetes, etc) you could scare him straight.

[lionfamily1999]

Is it manipulative or an appropriate learning tool to ask a child to come up with their own plan for managing a certain aspect of life - like say, an exercise plan - and then help them to follow through?

I think that sounds great, as long as he can stick with it once you're not there to help him.

 

Oh, and not manipulative at all, imo.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You know that old saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"?

 

I think, (and I may be way off base here) that the real question isn't how to make people own their own choices, but is *when* to *let* them own their own choices. The fact is, the world is full of couch potatoes, and less than vibrantly healthy people. The world is full of people who did the minimum in school and are facing the consequences. And they aren't all that way because their parents didn't tell them. Someday our children are going to go off and be grown ups and they will make choices we don't like. And we can't do a thing about it.

Now, 12 is too young to throw up your hands and give your child up to his bad habits. You can continue to show him why and how to do the things he needs to. But eventually, if you've led him to the water and taught him the way and he still chooses not to drink... well, thankfully the world is also full of people who learned by experience, the hard way. (I count myself among them.)

 

OK - this resonates with me. And don't worry, I'm not about to throw up my hands and give him up to his bad habits! I just have a panic attack every now and then because there is only 6 more years until he's 18!

[Jean in Newcastle]

Maybe a foray into the consequences could help? Dh used to be a fast food junky. We watched Supersize Me together and he's cleaned up his act (mostly). Maybe, if you did some research (together) into the ultimate consequences (obesity, diabetes, etc) you could scare him straight.

 

Yes, I do want to give him straight information with which to make decisions.

 

I think that sounds great, as long as he can stick with it once you're not there to help him.

 

Oh, and not manipulative at all, imo.

 

I figure at least then I'm giving him some tools on how to manage these kinds of goals. Ultimately my "success" or "failure" will rest on if I had done what I could to prepare him to make good choices, not if he actually makes them. I just know an awful lot of people who were never given any tools and then flounder afterwards. Some find the tools on their own, some don't.

[IsabelC]

I suspect that sometime we can try too hard to help people, causing learned helplessness on their part. Perhaps giving them more responsibility younger would allow them to learn from (relatively harmless) mistakes and take more ownership?

 

Unless it's just a character trait? I'm sure we all know at least one adult who still blames others, God, society and/or the universe for her/his poor choices.

[LibraryLover]

I've observed that people assume children don't need information. Many parents set down rules and kids must follow them and that is that. Some might have basis in some truths, yet some are quite arbitrary.

 

Some parents don't understand that a young child who has had only instant oatmeal for breakfast might turn into a devil child who has nothing but simple sugar carbs and sugar coursing through their veins. They punish the child instead of saying 'Whoops, we forgot to add some protein to your morning. I think it's time for some some peanut butter toast". Maybe that child grows up thinking he was hyper and bad, when really they had some needs that were not noted. (How can we know everything as parents, anyway?)

 

A child might also get to the end of a day and cry and whine and fight with sibs. Again, instead of helping the child through this, and offering information about why the child feels so at a loss, sad and/spent, many will turn to punishment. Many chats over the course of time with a child about how night time can be difficult, that even the smallest events seems upsetting and huge will help them understand their body messages. It may see the end of the world, but really, all we need to do is give our bodies the down time it needs.

 

Kids need information to own their choices. Kids need good food and sleep and patient guidance so they can understand themselves. They need to make some of their own choices; choices the parent might not fee good about, even. Letting a formally vegetarian child eat chicken with his omni father might be a difficult letting go, but a child is a person separate from us. Conversely, omni parents of a child exploring vegetarianism or vegaism will contribute more to the child's emotional growth if they respectful that need as well, without teasing, or derision. Trust has to be involved as we support our children in safe exploration.

 

What looks like a time-wasting computer game may be something far more to a child. It could be literary role play and communication with others, it could be artistic. Art on the computer, for instance may seem all wrong to those who us who love oils and watercolors. Yet computer art is a huge and important part of today's artistic world. Lord of The Rings or Narnia would not be what they are, film-wise, if it were not for computer artists. Another Stephen Spielberg will most likely not come from a family where no film or TV is allowed (unless a true rebellion in the child occurs :)) Of course such a child might become the next Tolkien or JK Rowling (all the anti Potter parents are shivering, right? lol). Maybe a future artist needs more visual stimulation than some, maybe watching a few movies a week helps them to see their future. Maybe having their own movie camera and frequency or free access to the medium is what makes them who they are. Maybe figuring out how to work a certain computer program (which might take more than the allowed 20 minutes per day) is what makes a potential graphic artist excited about life.

 

"I am the boss rules", which have a child believing only the parent knows what is good and right-- from food to computer usage-- might result in a child not being capable of owning their choices-- they have never made any. They may (or may not) sneak around, which will make them doubt their own needs and make them feel guilty and confused, which does nothing to help the child understand what they can own. They may be unsure of who they are or what they think outside the parent.

 

These folks, as they grow older, might not know how they can help themselves move along. A person may think themselves unstable or bad when what they really are is a person with frequent low blood sugars issues, perhaps. They may think they need Prozac or alcohol when what they really need is a handful of cashews or a hard-boiled egg at regular intervals. They may think themselves bad or weak for wanting a hamburger, when what they are is a natural omnivore, as perhaps their ancestors before them. Maybe their bodies seek balance. Maybe they don't know how to get that balance. So maybe they go overboard getting what they couldn't have. For those of us who aren't steak people we might not see this natural variant of a human diet with a non- judging heart.

 

People often blame others (their parents, lucky us) because they felt totally controlled and/or out of control. Maybe their childhood lacked gentle, respectful guidance and/or information. Who knows how some people overcome or why many do not. The human psyche is resilient at the same time it is prickly. I think we need to be really careful as parents. We want children to own their choices, but we so very often give them few opportunities to make their own choices and/or experiences normal mistakes regarding those choices.

Edited February 12, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Jean in Newcastle]

LibraryLover - I was hoping you would respond.

[IsabelC]

I found all of your post interesting and useful LL, but particularly this:

I think we need to be really careful as parents. We want children to own their choices, but we so very often give them few opportunities to make their own choices and/or experiences normal mistakes regarding those choices.

 

It is very often the case that we do not parent children in the ways that would encourage the traits we desire for them. For example, most of us would find it very convenient if our children said "Yes Mom" and instantly did whatever we asked them to without question. And yet, we want them to question, stand up for themselves and refuse to comply later on if their peers want them to make unsafe choices regarding sex, drugs or alcohol.

[Ginevra]

This is a question that I have always found very interesting. I had a sister who constantly made bad choices and constantly suffered for it. She viewed my life as if I just had "good luck".

 

It is a puzzle to me how we could grow up in the same family and have such different notions about owning our choices.

 

I remember reading The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People when I was about 22 years old. The first habit, "Be Proactive", was such a lightbulb moment for me. It really dawned on me that *I* was the one who decided most things for my life...if I hated my job, my boss, my commute, whatever, those were still choices I had made.

 

I don't know if there's much we can do to influence out children to make this realization.

[HRAAB]

This is a question that I have always found very interesting. I had a sister who constantly made bad choices and constantly suffered for it. She viewed my life as if I just had "good luck".

 

It is a puzzle to me how we could grow up in the same family and have such different notions about owning our choices.

 

I remember reading The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People when I was about 22 years old. The first habit, "Be Proactive", was such a lightbulb moment for me. It really dawned on me that *I* was the one who decided most things for my life...if I hated my job, my boss, my commute, whatever, those were still choices I had made.

 

I don't know if there's much we can do to influence out children to make this realization.

 

This is the same with my sister and me. Raised in the same family, same parents. Our parents were very responsible so there was a good example. She has continually made horrible choices. Not only horrible, but flat out wrong. Her family is in a huge mess right now because of choices she made, but she will not own responsibility. I cannot even talk to her right now because she's always blaming someone else. It's never her fault. She will not acknowledge the common denominator in every major mess in her life. She's 41. I have very little hope anymore that she will change.

[Peek a Boo]

There's also the other side of the coin: those of us who make choices that are not seen as healthy or responsible [as I refill my cup w/ some more Coke], but we are not blaming anyone else for that choice. I am fully aware that my choice will likely lead to increased dental bills down the road, but those expenses are worth it to me. :D

 

now if i start buying cokes when i can't even pay my regular bills, then i'll need some serious keeping. ;)

[Ginevra]

This is the same with my sister and me. Raised in the same family, same parents. Our parents were very responsible so there was a good example. She has continually made horrible choices. Not only horrible, but flat out wrong. Her family is in a huge mess right now because of choices she made, but she will not own responsibility. I cannot even talk to her right now because she's always blaming someone else. It's never her fault. She will not acknowledge the common denominator in every major mess in her life. She's 41. I have very little hope anymore that she will change.

 

:grouphug: Sorry, Janet. Same thing with my sis. She died two years ago at age 42. A large part of what made her early death tragic to me was that she never really had a happy, stable situation in her adulthood. I always hoped she would come to her senses and see, like you said, the common denom. was always herself. But she never did.

[LibraryLover]

But it's not true that people grow up in 'the same family'. Everyone lives life through their own filter, genetics, and neurological particulars, no matter. People might live in the same home, but they do not quite have 'the same parents' or experience events in the same way. Some personalities mesh well, some do not. Some children are first borns, and some are last borns. Some are middle children. Some have their parents when the parents have no clue about children, and some children get the experienced, calm parents. Maybe the marriage is better or worse, maybe the child needs more than the parent can give. Maybe one child has greater emotional needs than another. Maybe parents are better at dealing with a quiet kid, but not a born lawyer.

 

No matter how many siblings we have, no matter if we have the same exact parents, every sibling , every parent will experience their relationships differently, through their own personalities, their own strengths and weaknesses. Some children are devastated by a cross look, and some don't get worked up over a tongue -lashing. Some parents can handle a child who thinks he's an attorney and some parents will wither.

 

This is why I am 100% against once-size-fits-all parenting or 'schooling'. Respecting individual need is a huge challenge of parenting.

 

 

 

This is a question that I have always found very interesting. I had a sister who constantly made bad choices and constantly suffered for it. She viewed my life as if I just had "good luck".

 

It is a puzzle to me how we could grow up in the same family and have such different notions about owning our choices.

 

I remember reading The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People when I was about 22 years old. The first habit, "Be Proactive", was such a lightbulb moment for me. It really dawned on me that *I* was the one who decided most things for my life...if I hated my job, my boss, my commute, whatever, those were still choices I had made.

 

I don't know if there's much we can do to influence out children to make this realization.

Edited February 12, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Denisemomof4]

we're going through this right now with our 14 yos and almost 7 yod. Thankfully, we've got it pretty easy with the other two.

 

My 14 and 7 yo both struggle. Ds blames everyone else for problems. He starts fights and tells me I instigate them. We have had behavioral issues since his double concussion and dh and I are weary and worn out. Of course the medical community sees these normal catscans and tell us he's ok, even though we've had these issues since the beginning after his head injury. And other physical symptoms that aren't a "normal" part of head injuries so we're told they're not related. Yes they are. I'm so sorry you fail to see that.

 

Youngest dd - it's a daily struggle.

 

I'm HUGE into natural consequences. They don't appear to be helping with these two. Ds was pretty easy to handle before his head injury, but still..... he's angry and resentful when natural consquences occur. Dd could care less.

 

We've had so many talks. I've said through the years that life is all about choices, and the blessings or consequences we receive as a result of our choices. We've talked and talked, pointed out how things perhaps could have been handled better, etc. to no avail.

 

I'm all :bigear: Nothing we've done here has worked with these two, but with oldest ds he does own his mistakes. It came with maturity. Dd 10, no issue there. These two are easy kids.

[eternalknot]

"If you only eat the minimum of fruits and vegetables that Mom tells you to eat, then when you are on your own you are going to pig out on junk and will most likely have less than vibrant health."

 

Unfortunately, that might have to be one of those things you just have to let happen before the kid will realize it unto himself. My nephew eats the standard kid American diet (white foods - chicken nuggets, potatoes, and anything out of a box) and leaves for college next Fall. Not surprisingly, he's the sickliest of the grandkids; if something is going around, he will get it first, last, and sometimes an extra time in between. If he were my kid, I'd make it a research assignment or debate topic: convince me that your dietary habits are healthy enough to sustain you, and I will no longer "require" you to eat a minimum of fruits and vegetables. And if the kid could pull it off, I'd do as I promised and lay off - even if I didn't agree with said choices.

 

"If you only exercise when Mom pushes you out the door, then when you are on your own you are going to be a couch potato and will have a weight problem or at least not be conditioned and will most likely have less than vibrant health."

 

Same as above. If he could find convincing research to support his viewpoint (little to no exercise is required to thrive), I'd let it be. Obviously the hope would be that in the course of his research, he would start to see things differently ... even if he was determined to convince me otherwise, just to prove a point to me. I'd not let on that he had won the battle, but lost the war ;) LOL. But again, that might just be one of those things that has to be learned the hard way - through experience.

 

"If you only provide the minimum which is required by the teacher (including mom), you might get good grades but won't have true mastery of the subject because you won't want to retain it." and it's corollary, "If you only provide the minimum which is required by the teacher through high school, you might totally blow off college which has more open deadlines and will waste tons of money and potential."

 

Depending on the kid, you could just point blank ask: why is mediocrity acceptable to you? Genuinely ask, and genuinely listen to the answer (even if it doesn't come in the first attempt at this conversation). I had this conversation with a nephew, and realized that he was carrying some heavy things in his heart about his worth and abilities ... as well as cynicism about the world at large, particularly what he perceived as grading politics at his own school. We had several email exchanges about it, and while he never really upped his efforts at school he did show maturity at the college level by putting forth sincerely better efforts. He went from high school Cs to college As and Bs. For some reason it was an easier conversation to have via email. It allowed us to really think on what the other was saying, rather than interjecting or going with our first emotional response. It may have helped that it was coming from me (aunt) rather than from a parent.

 

Is it manipulative or an appropriate learning tool to ask a child to come up with their own plan for managing a certain aspect of life - like say, an exercise plan - and then help them to follow through?

 

Manipulation has its place, IMO, particularly with a certain type of personality who needs "help" to come to a realization of his or her "own" before any positive changes can take place. Only you know if it's appropriate or inappropriate for your kid and any given situation.

 

I do think that credibility is paramount when it comes to the follow through "help" - that is, if the kid has grown up with scare tactics (however well-intended) he or she is less likely to accept or believe the parent's advice. I have a SIL who always told her kids the extremes: if you had premarital $ex, you'd get a disease (possible, but not 100% - and once they realized, she lost credibility); if you drank soda, your teeth would rot (possible, but not 100% - again, lost credibility); if you do poorly in school, you'll be flipping burgers your whole life (possible, but not 100% - just look at the news! And again, lost credibility). My parents were always honest with us, and so we tended to heed their advice; even if we didn't always follow it 100%, they're voices were still running circles in our heads and eventually won out.

 

I'd work with a 12 year old on an exercise plan that incorporated his input into goals we set together. I'd be tempted to make an informal contract, and ask upfront how he wanted me to help him complete the plan and achieve the goals - particularly during the inevitable forthcoming rough times. I'd be clear that we were committing to a timeframe, after which time we'd re-evaluate the plan - we would each be holding up one end of the bargain, in it together.

 

Someone near and dear to me is a chronic victim. I really have no tolerance for that sort of attitude, and feel no shame at sharing a litany of true victim stories with him every time he starts whining about his crummy life (which pales in comparison to most people's problems). My son started picking up on this attitude, and I assigned him a yearlong project on Victimhood. It included research and hands-on involvement with bona fide victims, and every opportunity I could grab to put his own life and problems into true perspective. We believe that the energy you put forth into the world is returned to you, so that was also discussed. Ad naseum.

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

I do think that credibility is paramount when it comes to the follow through "help" - that is, if the kid has grown up with scare tactics (however well-intended) he or she is less likely to accept or believe the parent's advice. I have a SIL who always told her kids the extremes: if you had premarital $ex, you'd get a disease (possible, but not 100% - and once they realized, she lost credibility); if you drank soda, your teeth would rot (possible, but not 100% - again, lost credibility); if you do poorly in school, you'll be flipping burgers your whole life (possible, but not 100% - just look at the news! And again, lost credibility). My parents were always honest with us, and so we tended to heed their advice; even if we didn't always follow it 100%, they're voices were still running circles in our heads and eventually won out.

 

I'd work with a 12 year old on an exercise plan that incorporated his input into goals we set together. I'd be tempted to make an informal contract, and ask upfront how he wanted me to help him complete the plan and achieve the goals - particularly during the inevitable forthcoming rough times. I'd be clear that we were committing to a timeframe, after which time we'd re-evaluate the plan - we would each be holding up one end of the bargain, in it together.

 

Someone near and dear to me is a chronic victim. I really have no tolerance for that sort of attitude, and feel no shame at sharing a litany of true victim stories with him every time he starts whining about his crummy life (which pales in comparison to most people's problems). My son started picking up on this attitude, and I assigned him a yearlong project on Victimhood. It included research and hands-on involvement with bona fide victims, and every opportunity I could grab to put his own life and problems into true perspective. We believe that the energy you put forth into the world is returned to you, so that was also discussed. Ad naseum.

 

Very interesting comments!

 

I agree on the credibility issue. That's one reason why when I gave my natural consequences, I said that not eating fruits and veggies and not exercising would "most likely" cause less than optimum health. Because I know some disgustingly "fit" (from the outside at least) people who never exercise and eat horribly. And believe me, this child would remind me of those people if I brought it up!

 

Doing reports on the issues is an interesting idea. I see some research in my son's future. . .!

 

RE. victimhood. I have to admit that when ds starts to whine, I've taken the whine even farther to where even he can see it is ridiculous. He doesn't like it when I do that, though. We've talked a lot about appropriate self talk that includes not only a recognition of where we might have gone wrong, but a plan for being proactive. (And he sees my frustration with my neighbor who calls almost daily to whine about life's problems but never does anything about them.)

[Liz CA]

Yes, I do want to give him straight information with which to make decisions.

 

I figure at least then I'm giving him some tools on how to manage these kinds of goals. Ultimately my "success" or "failure" will rest on if I had done what I could to prepare him to make good choices, not if he actually makes them. I just know an awful lot of people who were never given any tools and then flounder afterwards. Some find the tools on their own, some don't.

 

IMHO, all you can do is give the tools. What they do with it cannot be controlled by us - at least not into adulthood. This is the crux of parenting. At some point we have to let go and the "natural consequences" will now replace the "artificial consequences" you mentioned earlier.

[Ginevra]

But it's not true that people grow up in 'the same family'. Everyone lives life through their own filter, genetics, and neurological particulars, no matter. People might live in the same home, but they do not quite have 'the same parents' or experience events in the same way. Some personalities mesh well, some do not. Some children are first borns, and some are last borns. Some are middle children. Some have their parents when the parents have no clue about children, and some children get the experienced, calm parents. Maybe the marriage is better or worse, maybe the child needs more than the parent can give. Maybe one child has greater emotional needs than another. Maybe parents are better at dealing with a quiet kid, but not a born lawyer.

 

No matter how many siblings we have, no matter if we have the same exact parents, every sibling , every parent will experience their relationships differently, through their own personalities, their own strengths and weaknesses. Some children are devastated by a cross look, and some don't get worked up over a tongue -lashing. Some parents can handle a child who thinks he's an attorney and some parents will wither.

 

 

I understand your point, but I meant in the general sense. It's not as though I had responsible parent and she had irresponsible parents. We didn't grow up with different expectations from our parents. What I'm saying is that I don't think there is any "plan" you can follow that guarentees children will grow up to be proactive people who don't blame or look for the cause of their troubles outside of themselves.

 

For sure, I agree that each child needs (and gets) parenting unique to themselves. *I* was the child who was devastated by a cross look, yet another sister (not the one I referenced), didn't flinch even if she was beaten cross-eyed. :001_huh:

[MamaSheep]

I think that part of it is that if we want our children to claim ownership of a particular choice then they need to see that WE acknowledge their ownership of that choice. If we say, "I want you to make your own choice, but you MUST choose the way I SAY or I'll take that choice back from you, make the choice FOR you, and then FORCE you to do it MY way," then we aren't asking them to "own" their choices, we're still asking them to obey our preferences but to do it cheerfully and without resistance--which is not the same thing. We need to really, truly LET them choose, because if they're not making real, genuine, independent choices, then they can't "own" their choices because they're not REALLY that child's choices.

 

Now, I'm not saying that you just turn little kids loose and let them sink or swim in life, not at all. But I do think it's important to, from an early age, give them real choices and LET them be the ones to make the decisions. Then gradually up the ante and give them more control in more areas of their lives as they get older. But if we want them to "own" their choices, then we, too, have got to really, truly acknowledge that it is THEIR choice to make, not ours. And that can be a really hard thing.

[Jean in Newcastle]

MamaSheep - Yes, it is a hard thing! I do think you are right.

[PinkInTheBlue]

My ex is almost 50 years old and still doesn't take responsibility for any of his actions. He believes every bad event in his life is the fault of everyone else. Every time (!) he gets fired the boss is an idiot or a bad person or unrealistic expectations (like actually doing the work). Every time he doesn't pay his bills the collector is the idiot.

 

I don't know what, if anything, his parents could have done differently. He has 3 siblings that aren't necessarily that way.