Forgiveness... (CC) versus Revenge

[tex-mex]

ETA:

Thank you to everyone for your support, WISDOM, advice, and prayers -- I truly appreciate you and the Hive!! :-) ((HUGS))

Edited February 5, 2010 by tex-mex

[Ibbygirl]

Wow!! That is incredible! I am SO sorry to hear of your troubles and I cannot even begin to imagine the gall of that man to show his face there to "drop in and say hi". :svengo: Wow! I think under those circumstances even Job would have been tempted to give a piece of his mind. Forgiveness as far as I understand is a conscious decision with the understanding that God is going to have to help you deal with the emotions. You are only human honey, and you got burned badly, emotions in this case are understandable. In fact I don't think that 3 years is long at all to bounce back from a betrayal like that. The fact that your husband was even courteous is amazing. If you ever needed proof of "wolves and sheeps clothing" there you go! Wow! Praying for you. :grouphug:

[tex-mex]

Wow!! That is incredible! I am SO sorry to hear of your troubles and I cannot even begin to imagine the gall of that man to show his face there to "drop in and say hi". :svengo: Wow! I think under those circumstances even Job would have been tempted to give a piece of his mind. Forgiveness as far as I understand is a conscious decision with the understanding that God is going to have to help you deal with the emotions. You are only human honey, and you got burned badly, emotions in this case are understandable. In fact I don't think that 3 years is long at all to bounce back from a betrayal like that. The fact that your husband was even courteous is amazing. If you ever needed proof of "wolves and sheeps clothing" there you go! Wow! Praying for you. :grouphug:

 

LOL... yeppers, tonight my emotions sure got the best of me! I gotta say I've come a long ways from years ago emotionally. *WHEW* Still miles to go. :grouphug: Thanks for praying!

[Ibbygirl]

LOL... yeppers, tonight my emotions sure got the best of me! I gotta say I've come a long ways from years ago emotionally. *WHEW* Still miles to go. :grouphug: Thanks for praying!

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I know what you mean. I was hurt very deeply (trauma is probably a better word) by someone close to me and it took me years before I would even pray for that person. I mean literally, YEARS! I wouldn't pray for their salvation because I just couldn't. I didn't really feel it and it felt hypocritical so I didn't do it. I did used to pray and say, "God, I choose to forgive them. Please help me deal with my emotions." and that really started the whole process but it definitely took time to get there.

[tex-mex]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I know what you mean. I was hurt very deeply (trauma is probably a better word) by someone close to me and it took me years before I would even pray for that person. I mean literally, YEARS! I wouldn't pray for their salvation because I just couldn't. I didn't really feel it and it felt hypocritical so I didn't do it. I did used to pray and say, "God, I choose to forgive them. Please help me deal with my emotions." and that really started the whole process but it definitely took time to get there.

 

((HUGS)) Sorry to hear what you went thru! :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

You are correct in saying it is a process. I did choose to forgive as God forgived me... and now emotionally need God's help to deal with the stuff now flowing up that came out of nowhere.

[HSMom2One]

I've been on a journey of forgiveness over a period of years myself, and have pondered often over the fact that as time moves on we learn and relearn at different levels of understanding. I believe that forgiveness is a process, one that may sometimes take years.

 

I wonder if sometimes we don't have experiences like the one you described as a kind of check point in which we are able to see how far we've come. This was the case for me personally. Many years ago I was wronged, and despite the the fact that I accepted the reality of it all and actually moved on with my life, the hole in my heart was still there. I had just learned to live with the pain and ignore its presence. It took an odd situation (similar to yours) many years later to open my eyes and understand this better. When it happened, I was amazed to realize what I'd been carrying around. The work of forgiveness was still in progress and God was ready to do a deeper work in my life. (I could share a lot more about what happened from there, but I think I'll save that for my blog sometimes.) My point is that something I was ignoring and thought I'd forgotten came to the surface again through seemingly strange circumstances that I recognized was a work of God. Because of this I was able to check where I was at spiritually and examine my heart, and finally come to a place of forgiveness. It was a beautiful, unexpected thing.

 

Rev. Mark Brown of Australia recently wrote an article for his website, "Journey Deeper Into God's Word" that really spoke to me about forgiveness. Here's a short exerpt that drives the message home:

 

"Yesterday I was reading and reflecting on Philippians 2:12b-13 which reads: ‘continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.’ And what struck me is the ‘fear and trembling’ bit: I am to respect our great and glorious God, a God who blesses, and takes blessing away. When I forgive someone, actually what I am doing is handing them over to God to deal with. In practice, God will deal with them regardless of any decision I make!! But still, for me to take that mental step is key, and then rather than be angry at someone, I find myself praying for them that God is merciful with them."

 

I pray that you continue to grow and move forward on your journey of forgiveness. May you find the ability to hand this man over to God to deal with, and may the God of Heaven grant you the deepest peace you could ever know.

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

Edited February 4, 2010 by HSMom2One

[Spy Car]

LOL... yeppers, tonight my emotions sure got the best of me! I gotta say I've come a long ways from years ago emotionally. *WHEW* Still miles to go. :grouphug: Thanks for praying!

 

I'm sorry :grouphug:

 

Bill

[Ibbygirl]

((HUGS)) Sorry to hear what you went thru! :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

You are correct in saying it is a process. I did choose to forgive as God forgived me... and now emotionally need God's help to deal with the stuff now flowing up that came out of nowhere.

 

:grouphug: Thank you. :) I hope that you experience full healing and deliverance from those emotions. God bless you, sister. :grouphug:

[Harriet Vane]

:grouphug:

 

 

 

:grouphug:

[thowell]

I can understand how hard this would be. My ex-hub was very physically abusive and we have a child together. After our divorce I hated him and would have loved nothing better than to see him lose everything. I realized through the help of God that this was controlling my life and affecting my dd. Through alot of prayer I have been able to fogive him and move on. It was like lifting a weight off my shoulders. I also realized that by hating him and wanting revenge I was still giving him power over me. This is a battle for all of us it is a flesh thing. My prayers are with you and I think the fact they your are even realizing the issue shows just how great you are!!

[BikeBookBread]

I'm so sorry! :grouphug:

[katilac]

Keep in mind, you are not limited to a stark choice between forgiveness and revenge. Revenge would be looking for ways to ruin his life, such as trying to get him fired from his current job (although, if his current job involves handling other people's money, or advising people regarding money, I wouldn't hesitate to protect other people by making sure his company is aware of his past). Revenge is not spending money on lawyers to prosecute a crime; revenge is spending money to pay someone to beat the holy crap out of him.

 

Forgiving someone for specific deeds does not have to mean welcoming this person back into your life, or even being casually friendly to him. I would consider it a cruelty for everyone to act as though nothing happened, because that might mean he never truly understands the harm he caused (and so doesn't change).

 

Has this person asked for forgiveness? Acknowledged that he was wrong? Cooperated with authorities? Made any offers of restitution, either monetarily or in ways such as helping someone to find a job?

 

Either way, this was a huge betrayal, and if you are at the point where you aren't constantly harboring hatred and ill-feelings toward him, you are doing well. Being upset with his casual visit is perfectly reasonable; it is related not only to his prior offenses, but to the very current offense of disregarding the feelings of everyone else in the room. When someone adds insult to injury, you can be offended by the insult even if you have forgiven the injury.

[lionfamily1999]

I've found that trying to see them as God sees them (fallible human who desparately needs the connections he destroys, selfdestructive, lost, &tc) can help. I don't think your knee-jerk reaction was wrong, because you pulled yourself back and realized how God would have had you respond.

 

:grouphug:

 

It's amazing how much more compassionate I can be to people that I initially want to curse once I remember we're all sibs and they're on the outs with "Dad," iykwIm.

[Impish]

I can understand how hard this would be. My ex-hub was very physically abusive and we have a child together. After our divorce I hated him and would have loved nothing better than to see him lose everything. I realized through the help of God that this was controlling my life and affecting my dd. Through alot of prayer I have been able to fogive him and move on. It was like lifting a weight off my shoulders. I also realized that by hating him and wanting revenge I was still giving him power over me. This is a battle for all of us it is a flesh thing. My prayers are with you and I think the fact they your are even realizing the issue shows just how great you are!!

:iagree:

I've been in this situation with an abusive ex, and more recently, my mother. I've had the hardest time forgiving her. A dear friend (SpecialMama, who else?) pointed out how much God forgives ME, so how could I not try to forgive her?

 

Its hard. Very, very hard. I'm working on it, and am not as angry as I used to be...although I'm not without anger completely either.

 

Thank God for prayer. There's no way I'd be who I am, where I'm at if I wasn't able to turn to God and pray.

[Guest Katia]

Rev. Mark Brown of Australia recently wrote an article for his website, "Journey Deeper Into God's Word" that really spoke to me about forgiveness. Here's a short exerpt that drives the message home:

 

"Yesterday I was reading and reflecting on Philippians 2:12b-13 which reads: ‘continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.’ And what struck me is the ‘fear and trembling’ bit: I am to respect our great and glorious God, a God who blesses, and takes blessing away. When I forgive someone, actually what I am doing is handing them over to God to deal with. In practice, God will deal with them regardless of any decision I make!! But still, for me to take that mental step is key, and then rather than be angry at someone, I find myself praying for them that God is merciful with them."

 

 

This is great. I find that I am at the point where I have handed them over to God to deal with. And I know He will deal with them regardless of any decision I make, but I am NOT to the point of praying that God will be merciful with them. I want them to know and to feel exactly what they have done and caused to our family and our children. If the children were not involved, I think it would be a lot easier, but people who intentionally hurt children........I find it hard to ask God to be merciful with them.

 

Maybe one day it will come. God only knows. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. The pain of betrayal from a trusted friend is way beyond dealing with it in three years. It will most likely take a lifetime.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

LOL... yeppers, tonight my emotions sure got the best of me! I gotta say I've come a long ways from years ago emotionally. *WHEW* Still miles to go. :grouphug: Thanks for praying!

 

:grouphug: You have my prayers. I am sorry.

[thowell]

:iagree:

I've been in this situation with an abusive ex, and more recently, my mother. I've had the hardest time forgiving her. A dear friend (SpecialMama, who else?) pointed out how much God forgives ME, so how could I not try to forgive her?

 

Its hard. Very, very hard. I'm working on it, and am not as angry as I used to be...although I'm not without anger completely either.

 

Thank God for prayer. There's no way I'd be who I am, where I'm at if I wasn't able to turn to God and pray.

 

 

:grouphug: it gets easier!

[Harriet Vane]

Keep in mind, you are not limited to a stark choice between forgiveness and revenge. Revenge would be looking for ways to ruin his life, such as trying to get him fired from his current job (although, if his current job involves handling other people's money, or advising people regarding money, I wouldn't hesitate to protect other people by making sure his company is aware of his past). Revenge is not spending money on lawyers to prosecute a crime; revenge is spending money to pay someone to beat the holy crap out of him.

 

Forgiving someone for specific deeds does not have to mean welcoming this person back into your life, or even being casually friendly to him. I would consider it a cruelty for everyone to act as though nothing happened, because that might mean he never truly understands the harm he caused (and so doesn't change).

 

Has this person asked for forgiveness? Acknowledged that he was wrong? Cooperated with authorities? Made any offers of restitution, either monetarily or in ways such as helping someone to find a job?

 

Either way, this was a huge betrayal, and if you are at the point where you aren't constantly harboring hatred and ill-feelings toward him, you are doing well. Being upset with his casual visit is perfectly reasonable; it is related not only to his prior offenses, but to the very current offense of disregarding the feelings of everyone else in the room. When someone adds insult to injury, you can be offended by the insult even if you have forgiven the injury.

 

:iagree: Well said. Thank you.

[AuntieM]

You might want to read The Hiding Place by Corrie ten Boom. It is a great, kind of tough read all on it's own, but I think you will particularly enjoy reading how she dealt with the issue of forgiveness.

[Liz CA]

Forgiveness is a process - sometimes a long process. I think your feelings are natural.

There is also a difference between forgiving and forgetting. So many think that God wants us to "forgive & forget". I don't believe this. I believe He wants us to forgive, let go of the revengeful feelings, however, he has given us a brain that remembers. It is not as if we can wipe our memory clean like a hard drive, nor should we. You and your dh now know better than you did before. It was a learning experience - a painful one and I am very sorry that you could not obtain some measure of justice through the legal system. IMHO, God would not want you to associate with this person again, invite him over, seek his company or - good heavens - his advice. He only asks you to forgive. And if this guy has not truly repented you may be sure that God will call him on the carpet for it.

[HSMom2One]

Forgiveness is a process - sometimes a long process. I think your feelings are natural.

There is also a difference between forgiving and forgetting. So many think that God wants us to "forgive & forget". I don't believe this. I believe He wants us to forgive, let go of the revengeful feelings, however, he has given us a brain that remembers. It is not as if we can wipe our memory clean like a hard drive, nor should we. You and your dh now know better than you did before. It was a learning experience - a painful one and I am very sorry that you could not obtain some measure of justice through the legal system. IMHO, God would not want you to associate with this person again, invite him over, seek his company or - good heavens - his advice. He only asks you to forgive. And if this guy has not truly repented you may be sure that God will call him on the carpet for it.

 

Yes, absolutely yes! As we go through the process of forgiveness, we do have to assess and consider the lessons that come from whatever situation we experienced. And forgiveness does not mean that we have to renew friendships or go back to any association. It just means that we let go of the need for revenge.

 

This is a great thread! I appreciate the great insights that have been shared.

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[*Inna*]

:grouphug:

[tex-mex]

Forgiving someone for specific deeds does not have to mean welcoming this person back into your life, or even being casually friendly to him. I would consider it a cruelty for everyone to act as though nothing happened, because that might mean he never truly understands the harm he caused (and so doesn't change).

From what I understand, that was the reception he received last night from friends. He stayed for little over an hour and everyone ignored the "500 lb gorilla" in the room and played nice. I think this is where I feel like someone could have at least said something in defense of us... but why would they? People hate confrontation. (If I were there, I would have said something. LOL ;))

 

Hubby left quickly -- but yes, there is resentment about the fact this person has been told in the past how his actions have destroyed the friendship and caused irrepairable harm to our finances... this person just doesn't get it. His wife also is in denial and wonders why we do not call or why are we no longer friends. It is crazy.

 

Has this person asked for forgiveness? Acknowledged that he was wrong? Cooperated with authorities? Made any offers of restitution, either monetarily or in ways such as helping someone to find a job?

NO. :glare: He moved his family out of state and dropped out of contact when it hit the fan. He thinks he will not face prosecution as he is innocent. When confronted with this -- he (and his wife) will state their innocence and claim they were doing it as a friend. No apologies or contriteness... no offers to help those he hurt. The closest thing to an apology was when we took him in (he lived with us for 3 months) while his family was moving out of state (we had NO idea at the time he was hiding from investors looking for revenge) -- then the whole investment deal blew up in his face while living with us -- he saw the daily phone calls to lawyers and anger. I have to credit hubby not doing bodily harm to the guy during all of this. In one deep conversation with him all he could say was, "Does this mean you don't like me anymore?" I gave up discussing the matter due to the fact he was like "deaf & dumb" at this point and unwilling to acknowledge his own behavior. We asked him to move out and cut off contact at that point.

 

Either way, this was a huge betrayal, and if you are at the point where you aren't constantly harboring hatred and ill-feelings toward him, you are doing well. Being upset with his casual visit is perfectly reasonable; it is related not only to his prior offenses, but to the very current offense of disregarding the feelings of everyone else in the room. When someone adds insult to injury, you can be offended by the insult even if you have forgiven the injury.

Last night was really tough... gotta admit, it brought up so many feelings I thought I had dealt with successfully. I cried and tried to sleep -- but got a headache. Emotions rising up to the surface, kwim? :confused: I have never talked about this in public and even though our friends KNOW exactly what happened -- I have put on a good face and tried very hard to not let it get to me and forgive. Last night, it was very difficult. Still some "crud" to get rid of, ya know? Aaaaugh. :grouphug:

 

Thanks to all who have posted -- good to get this out and work it through.

Edited February 4, 2010 by tex-mex

[Mrs Mungo]

Another aspect of this isn't your forgiveness but hie repentance. If he doesn't think what he did was wrong-will he do it again? I'd be very careful about letting him into new social circles or old social circles with new people. Warning people about his wrong-doing isn't necessary gossipy or vengeful. Sometimes, it is just fair warning.

[TravelingChris]

I am having a hard time with reading this. Is he a fugitive from the law? Do you have a lawsuit on him? I think it is one thing to forgive someone who is no longer doing the harm even if they are not sorry. BUt it completely different from forgiving one who is still doing harm. You and others are still very hurt financially. He is well -off, partially due to all of your stolen investments. I agree with the previous poster about a difference between revenge and complete forgiveness. I can see trying to not exact revenge because that is not only wrong but also harmful to the person doing the exacting. However, an unrepentant thief who is now living large is likely doing something devious to someone else. As Christians, we have an obligation to stop wrong doing. Even if you won't get much if any money back, I am sure you don't want his current victims to suffer anymore than they already have. As a criminologist in my previous life, I can tell you that fraud and deception crimes have incredibly high rates of recidivism particularly when no punishment occured. No forgiveness is not what is called for here, justice is and after that forgiveness.

[tex-mex]

Another aspect of this isn't your forgiveness but hie repentance. If he doesn't think what he did was wrong-will he do it again? I'd be very careful about letting him into new social circles or old social circles with new people. Warning people about his wrong-doing isn't necessary gossipy or vengeful. Sometimes, it is just fair warning.

 

Thank you -- this is good advice. I don't want to be seen as one who maligns or vengeful. At this point, I don't know if this person has learned from his mistakes.

 

And yes, today's consensus from the group was that it was good to see the person in tears while there (if you knew him, this is a BIG deal as he never admits wrongs.)... but since he did not be totally transparent with an apology (turns out his wife was on the cell while he was visiting -- and she talked to our Pastor and asked for forgiveness. Hubby was gone by then. Prayer was at Pastor's home.). Pastor's take on it is that my feelings are normal and need to be worked out over time -- but advised those in the group not to associate with the individual as a warning. We can't go back to what our friendship was years ago. You have to move on and heal.

Edited February 5, 2010 by tex-mex

[Danestress]

It would probably be easier to forgive if you had even a little justice - even the worldly sort. If he paid a penalty or you were compensated somehow, it might help you move on emotionally. I don't think we are designed as humans to tolerate injustice well. It's not fair.

[tex-mex]

I am having a hard time with reading this. Is he a fugitive from the law? Do you have a lawsuit on him? I think it is one thing to forgive someone who is no longer doing the harm even if they are not sorry. BUt it completely different from forgiving one who is still doing harm. You and others are still very hurt financially. He is well -off, partially due to all of your stolen investments. I agree with the previous poster about a difference between revenge and complete forgiveness. I can see trying to not exact revenge because that is not only wrong but also harmful to the person doing the exacting. However, an unrepentant thief who is now living large is likely doing something devious to someone else. As Christians, we have an obligation to stop wrong doing. Even if you won't get much if any money back, I am sure you don't want his current victims to suffer anymore than they already have. As a criminologist in my previous life, I can tell you that fraud and deception crimes have incredibly high rates of recidivism particularly when no punishment occured. No forgiveness is not what is called for here, justice is and after that forgiveness.

 

He is not a fugitive at this point. No charges have been brought up against him. The first trial is just starting up for his bosses and it is a slow process. Long story, but in summary -- legally, there was a huge group of investors who tried to do a lawsuit to recoup losses. The masterminds sound like they have hid $$ in overseas accts and filed for bankruptcy. Over the years, many people have been dropping out of the lawsuit due to finances and their need to file bankruptcy. Our family finally dropped our suit this summer. We cannot afford to hire a lawyer on retainer at this point. Eventually, our friend knows the authorities will track him down. We gave his name and his new job info to those in charge of the investigation. But he is a "small" player compared to those up higher in the pyramid.

Edited February 5, 2010 by tex-mex

[laughing lioness]

Tex-mex, I admire your courage.:grouphug:

[specialmama]

Praying for you and your hubby's healing. There is freedom on the other side of this. You know that. :001_smile: Let go, and let God. I hope someone has given you a really big hug today :grouphug: ... because what you've gone through is tough. And kudos for your hubby for not stirring the pot. At our bible study last night we were just discussing how many men (and some women) struggle with the balance of being humble but powerful and not timid. (see 2 Tim 1:7, then Matt 11:29, knowing that God Himself is humble and we ought to emulate Him.) Unreal. God is humble! Does that mean he is weak? That people can walk all over Him? NO WAY! He's totally powerful and chooses self control in order to balance the two. Anyhow, we had such a great talk, and here your dh demonstrated it perfectly. Bravo! :D

[Sonshine]

I don't understand - if it is known what he did, why was he not escorted out of the Bible study?

[Guest Katia]

It would probably be easier to forgive if you had even a little justice - even the worldly sort. If he paid a penalty or you were compensated somehow, it might help you move on emotionally. I don't think we are designed as humans to tolerate injustice well. It's not fair.

 

How insightful. "our hearts want justice" Wow. That is so true, and you are correct that even just a little justice helps. Thanks for this!

[tex-mex]

Praying for you and your hubby's healing. There is freedom on the other side of this. You know that. :001_smile: Let go, and let God. I hope someone has given you a really big hug today :grouphug: ... because what you've gone through is tough. And kudos for your hubby for not stirring the pot. At our bible study last night we were just discussing how many men (and some women) struggle with the balance of being humble but powerful and not timid. (see 2 Tim 1:7, then Matt 11:29, knowing that God Himself is humble and we ought to emulate Him.) Unreal. God is humble! Does that mean he is weak? That people can walk all over Him? NO WAY! He's totally powerful and chooses self control in order to balance the two. Anyhow, we had such a great talk, and here your dh demonstrated it perfectly. Bravo! :D

 

Not an easy walk, by any means -- while your inner flesh wants to see that person suffer just a tiny bit. Life sucks. But my problems are NOTHING compared to those suffering in Haiti, those being oppressed in third world countries, starving to death, dying for lack of clean water or food, and so on. I'm not going to lie - life is not fair. Justice may never happen. And yet, you must move on and trust in God. I do not want this situation to consume my daily thoughts or health -- then that person has "won". I've been through so much poverty and abuse as a kid and adult (which messed me up emotionally) before I met God -- am I going to let this situation get the best of me? No. It did take me years of prayer and therapy to get over my childhood abuse and past issues to be where I am at now. Obviously, it is going to take me some time to get over this betrayal and our foolish greed (still reeling from this -- squandering our child's inheritance -- and I should have known better) with this mess. You move on. Start all over and try to build the nest egg all over again. Thank God it wasn't my hubby's life or cancer or an horrible accident. That would have been irrepairable and tragic. This is money. Financially, we can bounce back.

 

That's where I am. And yes, letting it go into God's hands is what I need to do -- or it will consume me. I do not want this person's actions to cause me to become bitter and let it eat me up inside. Found out tonight one of the people burned by this man -- tried for years to ruin him -- is now in the hospital in poor health (stroke) and cannot move or speak. His wife said the pursuing of "justice" consumed her husband -- and almost drove him mad -- now he is a shell and the anger/rage/bitterness did this. I told hubby tonight that could have been me 2 years ago. I have to let this go. This is the struggle I thought I had conquered... but obviously have a ways to go. :grouphug:

Edited February 5, 2010 by tex-mex

[TravelingChris]

I certainly agree with your decision to move one. I think what you did was exactly right for your situation. Notifying the authorities about his whereabouts and job was exactly right. Human justice can be very slow or never forthcoming. I will pray for your healing and peace. Just stay away from this man, his wife, and any other people who did this scam. I think that letting go is the healthiest path.