Dog growling at kids?

[Joy at Home]

We just took in my sister's three year old male yellow lab, who is neutered. I posted previously about trying to acclimate him to our other pets.

 

The problem now is that he growls when my littles try to pet him. I is not outwardly aggressive, but when my youngest three try to pet him, he growls, but doesn't try to bite. I'm not sure how to handle it. The kids grew up around pets and have learned to be respectful of their space and follow their cues. They are not smothering him in the least, just gentle petting. I called my sister and she said he did that with her kids too.

 

Any suggestions on what to do?

 

thanks,

lisa

[lionfamily1999]

Where did she get him from? Have you taken him in for a check-up? Have you talked to your vet?

 

My neighbor has a rambunctious yellow lab she found in a box on the side of the road. The vet said the puppy showed many signs of having been abused. Now, the dog is getting to used to trusting people and will let most people pet her, but very few can touch her head without getting a growl. Whomever had her before my neighbors had (we think) tugged on her ears a lot.

 

It's taken a while for my neighbors dog to trust again, and I think your vet could let you in on what's going the same way their's did.

[NorthwestMom]

Take it seriously! This dog WILL bite if you don't intervene. Call your vet and get a referral to a behaviorist. I promise you it will be the best money you have ever spent. A behaviorist will come to your home and will be able to see the dynamics between the dog and the other members of your family, and show you how to train the dog to behave appropriately. PLEASE do not ignore the growling!

[Chris in VA]

He is showing dominance that is totally inappropriate. I'd get him to a professional trainer ASAP.

Little things you can do to tell him his place in the family--

 

Eating--

Make him go to a place you have set aside for him (kennel/crate if you have one and he's used to it) during meals. Feed him LAST. Don't even let him lie in the kitchen when you are preparing food. EVERY time someone is eating, make him go to his place and stay there until you (or whomever) is done.

 

Don't let him sleep on the beds. Don't step over him--make him get up and move out of your way.

 

Go thru all doorways FIRST. Make sure your kids always go ahead of the dog.

Don't tolerate any bumping, even if it seems accidental--it's not--it's dominance. Don't let your children even be "under his chin"--They shouldn't lay on the floor and let the dog play over them, for example.

 

Make him work for all treats and food. Have him sit, or lay down, or whatever.

 

Make sure he knows YOU (and the children) are the owners of all toys.

 

You have to consistently give him the message that he is the lowest member of the house. HTH

[2cents]

Like the others said, take this very seriously! This dog sounds very unpredictable. Between the other pet issues and now this growling, it sounds like he is very dominant and that needs to be nipped in the bud. I think a trip to a good vet who has experience in behavior issues is a must and again, I'd strongly consider a shock collar in case you need immediate correction or intervention. In all honesty, this dog is sounding scary to me.

[lionfamily1999]

He is showing dominance that is totally inappropriate. I'd get him to a professional trainer ASAP.

Little things you can do to tell him his place in the family--

 

Eating--

Make him go to a place you have set aside for him (kennel/crate if you have one and he's used to it) during meals. Feed him LAST. Don't even let him lie in the kitchen when you are preparing food. EVERY time someone is eating, make him go to his place and stay there until you (or whomever) is done.

 

Don't let him sleep on the beds. Don't step over him--make him get up and move out of your way.

 

Go thru all doorways FIRST. Make sure your kids always go ahead of the dog.

Don't tolerate any bumping, even if it seems accidental--it's not--it's dominance. Don't let your children even be "under his chin"--They shouldn't lay on the floor and let the dog play over them, for example.

 

Make him work for all treats and food. Have him sit, or lay down, or whatever.

 

Make sure he knows YOU (and the children) are the owners of all toys.

 

You have to consistently give him the message that he is the lowest member of the house. HTH

I wish I would've had this list for our last dog.

 

Thanks for sharing!

[Pip]

Take this very seriously! We had the same problem with a dog and it escalated. I had a friend in the same situation. If the dog was abused in any manner, you may be stuck. Aggression borne of fear is almost impossible to train out of a dog. The fear may come from something relatively innocuous. My friend, who had the dog since he was a puppy, finally came to the conclusion the dog had a bad experience being shipped from TX to CA. With our dog, we never knew. He was a rescue and he was fine a several years until we moved and had a new baby. He would see our smaller dog out of the corner of his eye and attack him. WE were very concerned he would see our baby crawling and mistake him for the other dog. We tried to give him to a rescue organization and were told they could not take on the potential liability even though he had never hurt people.

[hornblower]

We can't tell what this is without really looking at the dog & understanding dog behaviour.

 

You need to get a good pair of eyes on this dog - and I'd strongly recommend NOT a Millan type trainer, or someone from Petco etc, but a certified behaviorist.

 

Here are two links to help you get started in a search for an appropriate person to do an assessment:

http://www.capbt.org/

http://www.certifiedanimalbehaviorist.com/

 

You will notice certified behaviorists - who have taken extensive training in psychology and animal behavior are not going to be recommending dominance or shock collar methods.

 

If you can't find - or can't afford - one of the certified behaviorists (& they don't come cheap. Many are vets or PhD is behaviour. The one near me charges $500 a session) - then go with a member of APDT

 

http://www.apdt.com/about/ps/default.aspx

 

You'll notice again:

"Dog training and behavior modification strategies that rely primarily on misinterpretations of wolf behavior are irrelevant, ineffective and can lead to serious negative complications.The APDT's position is that physical or psychological intimidation hinders effective training and damages the relationship between humans and dogs. "

 

-----

 

You need experienced eyes to look at this dog & figure out what makes him tick & how to change his thinking.

 

UNTIL you get that done, you need to be proactive in managing this. DO NOT let an accident happen. Do not put the dog in a position where you know he will growl.

 

Growling is a good thing - it means the dog is willing to communicate with you and he's saying he doesn't like something. He COULD have chosen to just bite but he's showing restraint and trying to communicate something to you. HOWEVER, until you know exactly why he is growling & have developed a gradual training plan & desensitization/counter-conditioning plan to deal with this, do NOT put him in a position where he growls.

 

And DO - for NOW - respect his growling. Dogs whose growling is ignored can become biting dogs. Because you have young children in the house, you cannot take that risk.

 

Dogs can be rehabbed. I spent 13 mos fostering & rehabbing an EXTREMELY fear aggressive 110 lb maremma before he was ready to be adopted; his new owner adopted knowing she would need to continue his process. She has had him for a year now & he is doing very, very, very well. He's the big white one in this photo blog post:

http://hmsindefatigable.blogspot.com/2008/11/gone-to-dogs.html

 

 

Some safe things you can do until you get him assessed:

 

-keep him tethered to you with a long leash ALL the time. When you're in the house, get a long leash or a long length of rope and tie it to your waist. Don't just jerk him around - coax him and offer him treats (look on the board for a recent post I made on making plain kibble interesting enough for training; though labs usually will work for anything remotely edible LOL) for staying close to you and warn him when you're changing directions etc. After a few minutes he'll get the hang of it. Start asking him for sit before you treat him. Soon he'll be staying glued to your leg.

 

-let him off the tether at regular intervals to play with your dog/chase a ball etc but supervise his play constantly. WATCH him, talk to him, tell him when you like his behaviour. If he 'checks in' with you for a pet or gives you eye contact, say "yes" & reward with a treat.

 

-have him sit before you give him his bowl of food. BETTER YET, hand feed him. Easy with kibble, not so fun with raw but this does get good results. Feed him every little bit of food he gets from your hand. At first he doesn't have to 'work' for it by doing a sit or anything but gradually you can add that in. Also gradually & only if a behaviorist/trainer has said it's ok with his temperament, the people he growls at can take on this job.

 

-walk him twice a day on leash (doesn't matter if he pulls now; just try to deal with it as positively as you can or put a no pull Premier harness on him or a halti if absolutely necessary). But you must walk him. Even just around the block if all his physical exercise comes from running offleash in the yard/playing with another dog....

 

-if he is food obsessed (& I'm guessing he is) there is a little trick that really, really makes their brains go into higher mode. Have a handful of small bits of food that you want to eat (broken cracker works), and a little handful of treats for him nearby. When you have the dog's attention, eat a bit of the cracker yourself. Be theatrical about it. "LOOK! I am EATING!" is the message you want to telegraph. Have a few bites, chew them for much longer than you need to, then notice the dog. Have him sit (lure if necessary: put treat in front of nose, slowly lift; dog head goes up, dog bum goes down. If dog jumps, you have the treat too high/moved too fast/or moved it forward. try doing a small, slow move more towards the back of his head.) then give him one nonchalantly and go back to eating yours, again with gusto. He probably won't be able to watch you for long so keep a look out of the corner of your eye. If he's sitting with bum glued to floor & eyes glued to you, reward that with another treat. You are creating an attentive partner - reward each & every step.

 

 

There is also a set of exercises called Leading the Dance by one of the best clicker trainers in North America. These exercises are not clicker exercises - they're relationship exercises. Do as many of them as you can. Note Sue's warning: "If there's any part of Leading The Dance that is liable to get you bitten, DON'T DO IT and GET HELP from a competent trainer! If any of the exercises are causing you more trouble than you can handle without getting into a fight with the dog, leave them out. The more exercises you do, the faster your results will be, but FIGHTING WITH THE DOG IS NOT THE POINT."

 

http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Writing/LTD.html

 

Also read her article called "A Cratefull of Teeth" where she took in an adult Giant Schnauzer who was 'aggressive' & certainly put on a good show.

http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Writing/CratefulOfTeeth.html

It truly is a moving article as that dog in another person's hands would have been pts & FAST. Spider was a wonderful, wonderful dog who won many titles in many competitions.

 

 

Best wishes,

[hornblower]

One other thing I forgot to add:

 

give him quiet time every day. Stuff a kong with food, (if you're using kibble, glue it in with cream cheese, peanut butter or canned dog food) and put him either in a quiet room or in a crate. He sounds over-aroused and may be needing some nice calm time.

 

Holidays are extremely stressful on animals and he's had some big changes in his life. Give him fresh air, exercise, leadership AND time to rest and gnaw on things & relax.

[Joy at Home]

We can't tell what this is without really looking at the dog & understanding dog behaviour.

 

You need to get a good pair of eyes on this dog - and I'd strongly recommend NOT a Millan type trainer, or someone from Petco etc, but a certified behaviorist.

 

Here are two links to help you get started in a search for an appropriate person to do an assessment:

http://www.capbt.org/

http://www.certifiedanimalbehaviorist.com/

 

You will notice certified behaviorists - who have taken extensive training in psychology and animal behavior are not going to be recommending dominance or shock collar methods.

 

If you can't find - or can't afford - one of the certified behaviorists (& they don't come cheap. Many are vets or PhD is behaviour. The one near me charges $500 a session) - then go with a member of APDT

 

http://www.apdt.com/about/ps/default.aspx

 

You'll notice again:

"Dog training and behavior modification strategies that rely primarily on misinterpretations of wolf behavior are irrelevant, ineffective and can lead to serious negative complications.The APDT's position is that physical or psychological intimidation hinders effective training and damages the relationship between humans and dogs. "

 

-----

 

You need experienced eyes to look at this dog & figure out what makes him tick & how to change his thinking.

 

UNTIL you get that done, you need to be proactive in managing this. DO NOT let an accident happen. Do not put the dog in a position where you know he will growl.

 

Growling is a good thing - it means the dog is willing to communicate with you and he's saying he doesn't like something. He COULD have chosen to just bite but he's showing restraint and trying to communicate something to you. HOWEVER, until you know exactly why he is growling & have developed a gradual training plan & desensitization/counter-conditioning plan to deal with this, do NOT put him in a position where he growls.

 

And DO - for NOW - respect his growling. Dogs whose growling is ignored can become biting dogs. Because you have young children in the house, you cannot take that risk.

 

Dogs can be rehabbed. I spent 13 mos fostering & rehabbing an EXTREMELY fear aggressive 110 lb maremma before he was ready to be adopted; his new owner adopted knowing she would need to continue his process. She has had him for a year now & he is doing very, very, very well. He's the big white one in this photo blog post:

http://hmsindefatigable.blogspot.com/2008/11/gone-to-dogs.html

 

 

Some safe things you can do until you get him assessed:

 

-keep him tethered to you with a long leash ALL the time. When you're in the house, get a long leash or a long length of rope and tie it to your waist. Don't just jerk him around - coax him and offer him treats (look on the board for a recent post I made on making plain kibble interesting enough for training; though labs usually will work for anything remotely edible LOL) for staying close to you and warn him when you're changing directions etc. After a few minutes he'll get the hang of it. Start asking him for sit before you treat him. Soon he'll be staying glued to your leg.

 

-let him off the tether at regular intervals to play with your dog/chase a ball etc but supervise his play constantly. WATCH him, talk to him, tell him when you like his behaviour. If he 'checks in' with you for a pet or gives you eye contact, say "yes" & reward with a treat.

 

-have him sit before you give him his bowl of food. BETTER YET, hand feed him. Easy with kibble, not so fun with raw but this does get good results. Feed him every little bit of food he gets from your hand. At first he doesn't have to 'work' for it by doing a sit or anything but gradually you can add that in. Also gradually & only if a behaviorist/trainer has said it's ok with his temperament, the people he growls at can take on this job.

 

-walk him twice a day on leash (doesn't matter if he pulls now; just try to deal with it as positively as you can or put a no pull Premier harness on him or a halti if absolutely necessary). But you must walk him. Even just around the block if all his physical exercise comes from running offleash in the yard/playing with another dog....

 

-if he is food obsessed (& I'm guessing he is) there is a little trick that really, really makes their brains go into higher mode. Have a handful of small bits of food that you want to eat (broken cracker works), and a little handful of treats for him nearby. When you have the dog's attention, eat a bit of the cracker yourself. Be theatrical about it. "LOOK! I am EATING!" is the message you want to telegraph. Have a few bites, chew them for much longer than you need to, then notice the dog. Have him sit (lure if necessary: put treat in front of nose, slowly lift; dog head goes up, dog bum goes down. If dog jumps, you have the treat too high/moved too fast/or moved it forward. try doing a small, slow move more towards the back of his head.) then give him one nonchalantly and go back to eating yours, again with gusto. He probably won't be able to watch you for long so keep a look out of the corner of your eye. If he's sitting with bum glued to floor & eyes glued to you, reward that with another treat. You are creating an attentive partner - reward each & every step.

 

 

There is also a set of exercises called Leading the Dance by one of the best clicker trainers in North America. These exercises are not clicker exercises - they're relationship exercises. Do as many of them as you can. Note Sue's warning: "If there's any part of Leading The Dance that is liable to get you bitten, DON'T DO IT and GET HELP from a competent trainer! If any of the exercises are causing you more trouble than you can handle without getting into a fight with the dog, leave them out. The more exercises you do, the faster your results will be, but FIGHTING WITH THE DOG IS NOT THE POINT."

 

http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Writing/LTD.html

 

Also read her article called "A Cratefull of Teeth" where she took in an adult Giant Schnauzer who was 'aggressive' & certainly put on a good show.

http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Writing/CratefulOfTeeth.html

It truly is a moving article as that dog in another person's hands would have been pts & FAST. Spider was a wonderful, wonderful dog who won many titles in many competitions.

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Thank you so much for your thorough response. I've made an appointment at a very reputable vetinary hospital who has their own behaviorist. We are bring our children and other dog for an evaluation. This is unchartered territory for us, and we really need to decide as a family whether we are determined enough to put in the kind of long term effort this may require. I'd like to think we are, but we also have a very full plate as it is. I also know that I want desperately to work through these issues, otherwise this dog may end up in a shelter or worse.

 

I'll check back after the appointment. Thanks for all your help,

Lisa

[1GirlTwinBoys]

He is giving a warning that he WILL bite. You definitely don't want to let this go. He does not know his place and is trying to be the alpha. That is not okay in a family situation.

[Lolly]

Honestly, I would not keep this dog. He would be gone. Today.

 

Based on previous experience.

[Kim in TN]

Honestly, I would not keep this dog. He would be gone. Today.

 

I agree! We have numerous pets, including a chocolate lab. I am big BIG animal lover, but I would rehome the dog. I was worried enough about your kitty possibly getting hurt in your other post. Now, I'm terrified that something will happen to your 3 year old!

 

I would not risk my children's lives over a dog. There are plenty of other people out there without children and other pets, that might want the dog.

[sparrow]

Honestly, I would not keep this dog. He would be gone. Today.

 

Based on previous experience.

 

:iagree: When my son was 2, he came within half an inch of losing his eye over my thinking I could train and rehab our 6 year old American Eskimo Dog who had never made a move to bite, but had growled. I was in the room and ds had not provoked her. She saw an opportunity and took it. Be very careful with your littles around this dog.

[Impish]

Honestly, I would not keep this dog. He would be gone. Today.

 

Based on previous experience.

 

I agree! We have numerous pets, including a chocolate lab. I am big BIG animal lover, but I would rehome the dog. I was worried enough about your kitty possibly getting hurt in your other post. Now, I'm terrified that something will happen to your 3 year old!

 

I would not risk my children's lives over a dog. There are plenty of other people out there without children and other pets, that might want the dog.

:iagree: With both of the above responses. We attempted to adopt a young male lab from an SPCA. He growled and just about took Princess' face off. If she hadn't been sitting in my lap at the time, and I noticed his lip curl, pulling her back instantly, it would have been disastrous. As it was, she had a scratch on her forehead from his tooth. He went back the next day.

 

As much as I love dogs, and I do, my children's safety comes first. Yes, I understand many dogs can be rehabbed, but I'm also smart enough, aware enough, that with one arm, small kids, and a busy household, I am not capable of giving the dog what it needs for rehabilitation. If my children were older, it would be different. But with young children in the house, its not a risk I'm willing to take, ever.

 

Thankfully, we now have Cassie. She's a Pyre x Akbash, and the sweetest natured dog I've had, after our late beloved pug, Harley. She has growled, but it was due to her being asleep and startled when one of the kids tripped over her. I've never seen any aggression at all...but then again, we feed exclusively in her crate (other than training treats) and always in her bowl. We've also followed the typical things...she eats last, enters last, etc. She's a 'soft' dog in terms of temperament, and very submissive with the family.

[Joy at Home]

:iagree: With both of the above responses. We attempted to adopt a young male lab from an SPCA. He growled and just about took Princess' face off. If she hadn't been sitting in my lap at the time, and I noticed his lip curl, pulling her back instantly, it would have been disastrous. As it was, she had a scratch on her forehead from his tooth. He went back the next day.

 

As much as I love dogs, and I do, my children's safety comes first. Yes, I understand many dogs can be rehabbed, but I'm also smart enough, aware enough, that with one arm, small kids, and a busy household, I am not capable of giving the dog what it needs for rehabilitation. If my children were older, it would be different. But with young children in the house, its not a risk I'm willing to take, ever.

 

Thankfully, we now have Cassie. She's a Pyre x Akbash, and the sweetest natured dog I've had, after our late beloved pug, Harley. She has growled, but it was due to her being asleep and startled when one of the kids tripped over her. I've never seen any aggression at all...but then again, we feed exclusively in her crate (other than training treats) and always in her bowl. We've also followed the typical things...she eats last, enters last, etc. She's a 'soft' dog in terms of temperament, and very submissive with the family.

 

This fear has been lingering in my mind today. As I said, I made an appointment with a behaviorist, but I'm having second thoughts about having this dog in the house. Right now we have them separated. But I know it will take real consistency, diligence, and dedication to give him what he needs to change, if even possible. I just don't know if I have it in me. I really think he would do very well in a house with no children.

 

Dd, 10, is profoundly MR and autistic, and walked toward him today (she doesn't even really notice him, she just happened to be walking in that direction) and he growled at her, and it really got me thinking. I have a full plate just trying to meet my kiddos needs, do I really have it in me? And how would I feel if, Heaven for bid, one of my precious little girls got bit or worse?

 

I talked to dh, and he really wants to give the dog back to my sister and help her find a suitable home. I think we're headed in that direction. In the meantime, he is completely separated from the children.

 

Thanks for all your input,

Lisa

[2cents]

This fear has been lingering in my mind today. As I said, I made an appointment with a behaviorist, but I'm having second thoughts about having this dog in the house. Right now we have them separated. But I know it will take real consistency, diligence, and dedication to give him what he needs to change, if even possible. I just don't know if I have it in me. I really think he would do very well in a house with no children.

 

Dd, 10, is profoundly MR and autistic, and walked toward him today (she doesn't even really notice him, she just happened to be walking in that direction) and he growled at her, and it really got me thinking. I have a full plate just trying to meet my kiddos needs, do I really have it in me? And how would I feel if, Heaven for bid, one of my precious little girls got bit or worse?

 

I talked to dh, and he really wants to give the dog back to my sister and help her find a suitable home. I think we're headed in that direction. In the meantime, he is completely separated from the children.

 

Thanks for all your input,

Lisa

 

I think this is probably the best solution. From what you're describing, this dog would take a lot of consistent, intensive monitoring. Finding another placement would be better for you all. A long time age we had a dog that bit a friend of our child. We knew the dog was unpredictable so we put it in a back bathroom and instructed the children NOT to open the door. Well...the friend opened the door and the dog rushed him and bit him. It was very scary and we were lucky these friends didn't sue us. The damage was a bruise and small cut that healed but it could have been much worse. I promptly took that dog to vet for behavior analysis. The vet did some testing and told me to put him down. I was crushed and asked about re-homing the dog and the vet told me that based on his testing, the dog was a huge liability and 'unhappy/neurotic' (he was an abused rescue we adopted). This was the 2nd time he had tried to bite a child...this time he succeeded. It broke our hearts. I'm sorry you and your family are having probs with this dog. :(

[johnandtinagilbert]

It's great your acting on this. I just wanted to say, we had some issues with growling at first, but now we have a great adopted puppy. I know every situation is different, just trying to be encouraging.

[CactusPair]

If it were me I'd find another home for the dog, ie, one w/o small kids and w/ an owner willing to make the serious commitment to rehabbing the dog. I'd keep the kids away from the dog until I found a good foster or permanent home for the dog.

 

I love dogs--I have 4--but I could not ever feel peaceful in my house if one of them growled at my babies even once.

 

I'm sorry for your stressful situation.

[LadyR]

When my son was born we kept him and my dog (malamute) apart and then supervised them together as he got older because she is such a huge dog and I wanted to make sure there wouldn't be any problems. About four years ago my dog growled at my then 4yo son when he tried to pet her. She doesn't like anyone petting her except me, dh and dd. We've had her since she was 8 weeks old (she's 10 years old now) so I know her personality well. For us, this wasn't a huge deal. My ds and my dog have no problems being together. He can play wildly next to her, feed her snacks from his hand, etc., but he knows not to pet her, which is fine with him.

 

But I too would be concerned if I brought an older dog into a home with young children and it growled.

[katemary63]

Honestly, I would not keep this dog. He would be gone. Today.

 

Based on previous experience.

 

:iagree: Not with little kids. You will NEVER be able to leave him alone with them.