Here's the fifth anniversary poll...

[Colleen]

I messed up my previous post so I'm starting over. I am hoping that even those who want to avoid discussion about this potentially hot topic will at least post in the poll. I know the poll options don't cover the array of opinions; such is the nature of a poll.

[mellifera]

nt

[Colleen]

nt

[GothicGyrl]

I see I am not alone in the "get out yesterday" part, but I am the first to post a why--

 

We should have never gone there in the first place. We went there under false pretenses (WMD's that didn't exist), Saddam being responsible, etc...

 

We should have never gone. And if the need really was there for us to go, we should not be trying to instill American Values/beliefs into their nation. Our democracy doesn't even work half the time, what makes us think it will work over there?

 

Nope--should never have gone.

[Janet in WA]

I couldn't vote because I don't know for sure which approach will be the best one for both the US and that region. It's not just about my feelings about war and whether we should be there.

[Antonia]

Pat Buchanan summed up my feelings nicely in his book, "Day of Reckoning," when he said the US needs to stop playing "globocop" to the whole world. Saddam was an evil dictator, but he should have been removed from power by the Iraqi people. Civil wars happen all over the globe on a continual basis. We cannot and should not be involved in every country's internal struggle.

 

I voted get out now because get out yesterday isn't really an option. I'd love for us to never have gone there to begin with.

[Colleen]

The nature of a poll is such that it can't possibly encompass all viewpoints. This is subjective; the results offer a look into our thoughts and feelings regarding the issue. I don't expect everyone is able or willing to respond, and that's fine.:)

[Michelle T]

It is absolutely unbelievable to me that we went into this war under false pretenses and are still there spending billions.

 

What could be done with that money here in this country?

 

We could rebuild New Orleans.

 

Remember a couple years ago when a power grid went out, blacking out much of the northeast? And it was said that the entire country power grid was aging and unable to bear the load? But couldn't be fixed because it would cost too much? Fix it!

 

Repair the decaying roads all over this country. Build more freeways to support the incredible traffic in our cities.

 

Rebuild the inner cities, spend $$$$ to improve living conditions, healthcare, education for poverty stricken Americans.

 

More research into alternative power sources, less dependence on oil. We wouldn't even be in Iraq without our dependence on oil.

 

I could go on and on, but don't have time!

Michelle T

[Audrey]

I think a poll like this is better. The board rules have a thing about not discussing politics (at least, the old boards did).

 

This is a way to "count" your opinion without having to "get into it." And, we all know how nasty it could get!

I also think your poll options covered a good, broad spectrum of sentiments. Besides, it can be kind of fun to pop back in and see how your choice is ranking. :lurk5:

[Jenny in Atl]

I would love for us to be out now, yesterday, never there... but I do fear for what will happen when the troops pull out. No easy solution.

[Tutor]

I see I am not alone in the "get out yesterday" part, but I am the first to post a why--

 

We should have never gone there in the first place. We went there under false pretenses (WMD's that didn't exist), Saddam being responsible, etc...

 

We should have never gone. And if the need really was there for us to go, we should not be trying to instill American Values/beliefs into their nation. Our democracy doesn't even work half the time, what makes us think it will work over there?

 

Nope--should never have gone.

 

And to top it all off, it's illegal to boot! We haven't declared war. (We haven't declared war since WWII, if I'm not mistaken, so Korea and Vietnam and the first Gulf War were illegal, too.) Then, just to show that we really, really like to break the law, Congress voted to hand over its constitutional authority over military funding to the executive branch without a Constitutional amendment.

 

I get that not everyone is going to agree with every policy or decision made by every branch of government. I can live with that. But the Constitution defines the government. No Constitution, no federal government. The public should have the comfort of knowing that they are governed by the government outlined in the Constitution. I'm not sure what country's government is ruling America since the one there now, at least when it comes to military decisions, isn't the one outlined in the Constitution.

 

(I hope that was slightly clearer than mud. :D)

[Amy loves Bud]

I have a question for those who chose the "Yesterday" option. While I completely understand why you chose that option, it's not reality. I'm really interested in knowing, considering the reality of the situation, how you think we should proceed from here.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I definitely think we should reduce our numbers but, stay involved. I don't usually post on controversial things, but, this is important to me because I have family who have served in the past and will be serving in the near future.

 

The reasons we got in are, for me, not as important as finishing well. We're there. Now we have to deal with our decision. I wish we would have had better intelligence before it all started, I wish we would have known more about what was really happening there, I believe it would have made a huge difference. But, we are there now. I think we owe it to those who's lives have been torn apart to give them a chance at stability. We can't just leave (eventhough deep in my heart I wish we had gotten out yesterday) and leave that part of the world open to anything. It's not fair to those living there who are hoping to have a chance at some semblance of freedom.

 

They deserve that chance, IMHO, and I hate to think we've sacrificed so many incredible people to have it all fall apart.

[GothicGyrl]

I have a question for those who chose the "Yesterday" option. While I completely understand why you chose that option, it's not reality. I'm really interested in knowing, considering the reality of the situation, how you think we should proceed from here.

Since you asked, here is the truth:

 

Since "get out yesterday" is a pipe dream (and it is really, but I liken that option to "never should have went"), then my answer to your question is "Get out now, just put it all down and walk away. **** the consequences to their people because I am tired of the US thinking they have a right to be "globoCop" (thanks for that!!) to everyone. So pack up, ship out and focus on your own **** country--get OUR country back in shape before we go trying to fix everyone else's problems".

 

And since Colleen got dinged, I'm going to pre-empt my ding with this:THIS DOES NOT MEAN I DO NOT SUPPORT THE TROOPS. I FULLY SUPPORT THOSE MEN AND WOMEN BECAUSE I FEEL SORRY THEY HAVE TO BE FIGHTING A WAR THAT SHOULD HAVE NEVER OCCURED IN THE FIRST PLACE!

 

(and I'm not yelling at you Amy, :D )

[Volty]

I have a question for those who chose the "Yesterday" option. While I completely understand why you chose that option, it's not reality. I'm really interested in knowing, considering the reality of the situation, how you think we should proceed from here.

 

I'd go to the UN, see if they want to police it. Then I'd try the Arab League. If nobody cares, neither do I, they can go ahead and kill each other.:lurk5: We did what we did, sorry my bad, time for the Iraqis to sort this mess out.

[Mamagistra]

I see I am not alone in the "get out yesterday" part, but I am the first to post a why--

 

Well, since ITA with you here, and I cannot rep you today, I'll step up to the plate and ditto what you said. :iagree:

 

I did not feel this way a few years ago. Since I ditched most all mainstream media and decided to educate myself on political matters (beyond what is sanctioned by and for CNN, FOX, and the other majors), I came to believe that our nation made a grave mistake by continuing the Gulf War (yep, it's the same conflict in my eyes). I hold no grudge against anyone at all who believes differently than me, and I wholeheartedly endorse our servicemen. :patriot: I no longer believe, however, that stamping the Stars and Stripes on something makes it right. :sad:

 

:leaving:

[Tutor]

I have a question for those who chose the "Yesterday" option. While I completely understand why you chose that option, it's not reality. I'm really interested in knowing, considering the reality of the situation, how you think we should proceed from here.

 

I was torn between choosing "get out yesterday" (which I chose) and "get out now" (which is the viable option I would have chosen, but felt that it was better, as GothicGyrl said, to vote that we never should have gone).

 

As I see it, we have two options:

1. Legally declare war, return decisions of military funding to the Congress, define a clear definition of "victory" (which would involve the defeat of a state or established military power; I'm sorry, but "terror" is not a realistic opponent) and proceed toward that goal then leave (this would not involve leaving a "peace-keeping" force in Iraq indefinitely).

 

2. Admit we went in unconstitutionally and pull troops out immediately. (I would also like to see a declaration that we will no longer participate in nation building, but that, and thinking anyone in our government would admit that the "war" was unconstitutional, save one, is a pipe dream.)

 

I support #2, but realize that of the two, the first is more likely to happen if either... I'm not holding my breath, though.

[Colleen]

The board rules have a thing about not discussing politics (at least, the old boards did).

 

That is no longer a rule. I think polls are nice option for "hot topics", but it is nice if a civil discussion can take place, too.

[Diana in OR]

Since you asked, here is the truth:

 

Since "get out yesterday" is a pipe dream (and it is really, but I liken that option to "never should have went"),

 

 

I don't see "get out yesterday" and "never should have gone" as the same. I chose the "Yesterday" option, b/c while I can't say for certain there wasn't some justification for going in the first place, I believe there was a point where it was clear that what we were doing wasn't working, and we were not going to be able to accomplish what we set out to do in the first place. At that point (maybe a couple of years ago), I believe we should have started the process of pulling out.

[GothicGyrl]

 

That is no longer a rule. I think polls are nice option for "hot topics", but it is nice if a civil discussion can take place, too.

And in truth, Audrey, I'd rather discuss politics and religion than the same old vacuum cleaner/boob holder/pms discussions we used to have.

 

The problem is, as Colleen said--some can't keep it civil. I should be able to voice my extreme displeasure with this war and Bush without being called names or told where I am going at the end of my life.

[GothicGyrl]

I don't see "get out yesterday" and "never should have gone" as the same. I chose the "Yesterday" option, b/c while I can't say for certain there wasn't some justification for going in the first place, I believe there was a point where it was clear that what we were doing wasn't working, and we were not going to be able to accomplish what we set out to do in the first place. At that point (maybe a couple of years ago), I believe we should have started the process of pulling out.

While I agree they are not the same in theory--for the purpose of the poll, I had to see it like that, in order to be able to articulate why I feel that way :D

 

And fwiw, I do agree with you that if there was a viable reason for us being there in the first place, as Tutor said--the rules of engangement should have been followed(firstly) and (secondly) a quick resolution should have happened--not 5 something years later.

[Mama Lynx]

The reasons we got in are, for me, not as important as finishing well. We're there. Now we have to deal with our decision. I wish we would have had better intelligence before it all started, I wish we would have known more about what was really happening there, I believe it would have made a huge difference. But, we are there now. I think we owe it to those who's lives have been torn apart to give them a chance at stability. We can't just leave (eventhough deep in my heart I wish we had gotten out yesterday) and leave that part of the world open to anything. It's not fair to those living there who are hoping to have a chance at some semblance of freedom.

 

 

Insightful and nicely put, Dayle.

[melissel]

I can't vote because "Never should have started this 'war' under false pretenses in the first place" isn't an option.

 

Now, though, I just can't say what I think. We knocked the foundation out from under these people. To simply drop our stuff and walk away doesn't seem right, and in fact, it was one of the concerns of the Iraqui people about the US coming in in the first place--that we would come and shake things up and then just walk out like we did last time. In addition, it risks leaving a huge power vacuum given the shaky system currently in existence there. I just don't know. It really stinks.

[melissel]

I definitely think we should reduce our numbers but, stay involved. I don't usually post on controversial things, but, this is important to me because I have family who have served in the past and will be serving in the near future.

 

The reasons we got in are, for me, not as important as finishing well. We're there. Now we have to deal with our decision. I wish we would have had better intelligence before it all started, I wish we would have known more about what was really happening there, I believe it would have made a huge difference. But, we are there now. I think we owe it to those who's lives have been torn apart to give them a chance at stability. We can't just leave (eventhough deep in my heart I wish we had gotten out yesterday) and leave that part of the world open to anything. It's not fair to those living there who are hoping to have a chance at some semblance of freedom.

 

They deserve that chance, IMHO, and I hate to think we've sacrificed so many incredible people to have it all fall apart.

 

Gosh, I see that I could have just said "Ditto" after a few posts, LOL!

 

I also wanted to add that my opinion does not mean I don't support our troops at all. They're honorably and heroically doing the job they signed up for, and I appreciate that greatly. I regret that so many of them had to make huge sacrifices for this cause :(

[GothicGyrl]

I think we owe it to those who's lives have been torn apart to give them a chance at stability. We can't just leave (eventhough deep in my heart I wish we had gotten out yesterday) and leave that part of the world open to anything. It's not fair to those living there who are hoping to have a chance at some semblance of freedom.

 

I do not think we owe them anything. If they wanted freedom, they should have requested help from the UN. If anything, we owe them only what we've destroyed. It is not our job to worry about other countries and their bid for freedom or stability when we did not cause the non-freedom or instability in the first place (before the war that is).

 

You don't see any other country coming to America's aid, do you? So why isn't America focusing on the problems here and trying to fix our very real and very deadly problems first, before we go try fixing other's problems?

 

That's pretty much why I just cannot support this war. We've got problems here, big ones, that need fixing and could be fixed with all that money we are spending over there.

[KidsHappen]

Ditto: GG, Tutor, Mamagistra, Antonia, Michelle T, and Volty. :iagree:

 

I will say that my df, dh and ex-h were all veteran and I absolutely support our troups and believe that we should take care of them. I just don't support this war or global policing.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I do not think we owe them anything. If they wanted freedom, they should have requested help from the UN. If anything, we owe them only what we've destroyed. It is not our job to worry about other countries and their bid for freedom or stability when we did not cause the non-freedom or instability in the first place (before the war that is)

 

 

I see what you're saying. I, personally, think we do owe them something. We definitely owe them what we've destroyed, absolutely. But, I think we've given them a taste of what they can have as far as voting, self-rule, setting up a government, and giving everyone the right to an education and freedom of religion (not that these things are perfect, yet, but, they've had a glimpse of it). We, as the ones who are there do owe them a little bit better than, "Well, this isn't working out the way we thought, so, see ya." (Not that I'm saying that's what your attitude is at all, it's just how it might seem to them.)

 

I wish others would get involved. I wish the UN would do something. But, they currently aren't, so, IMHO, we should.

 

I totally agree with you that we shouldn't put ouselves up as the police state of the world. It's not our business to get involved in so many things we've gotten involved in. It's horribly sad that there are things in our country that need so much attention and they aren't getting it (education, health care, cleaning up Washington--could we go on hours and hours about just that one topic!). But, since we've gone in, there is a sense of responsibility to finish as well as we can for those who are counting on us.

[GothicGyrl]

I see what you're saying. I, personally, think we do owe them something. We definitely owe them what we've destroyed, absolutely. But, I think we've given them a taste of what they can have as far as voting, self-rule, setting up a government, and giving everyone the right to an education and freedom of religion (not that these things are perfect, yet, but, they've had a glimpse of it). We, as the ones who are there do owe them a little bit better than, "Well, this isn't working out the way we thought, so, see ya." (Not that I'm saying that's what your attitude is at all, it's just how it might seem to them.)

 

I wish others would get involved. I wish the UN would do something. But, they currently aren't, so, IMHO, we should.

 

I totally agree with you that we shouldn't put ouselves up as the police state of the world. It's not our business to get involved in so many things we've gotten involved in. It's horribly sad that there are things in our country that need so much attention and they aren't getting it (education, health care, cleaning up Washington--could we go on hours and hours about just that one topic!). But, since we've gone in, there is a sense of responsibility to finish as well as we can for those who are counting on us.

And "cleaning up our mess" is about as far as "finishing the job" as I think we should get. I know what you are saying about giving them a taste of what we have, not leave them hanging and all that, but (and I'm not attacking anyone for liking him) as far as I'm concerned, Bush deserves impeachment for this. Or charged with some type of war crime. What he did was completely irresponsible and illegal (as was pointed out). And he's going to walk away from it with nothing on his hands.

 

Again, that's not to say I don't support our troops--if I could go over there and feed them, clothe them, even wash their flipping feet--I would, do anything to help allievate their pain. But IMHO, the government are the ones who owe them this--the alleviation--not the general public. It doesn't mean I will shun them or hurt them or do any of the things done to Vietnam Vets-absolutely not! But it's about time our government stepped up and took responsibilty for their horrendous actions.

 

(and if you can't tell--this would be a good reason why I don't like it here :D)

[Dayle in Guatemala]

Again, that's not to say I don't support our troops--if I could go over there and feed them, clothe them, even wash their flipping feet--I would, do anything to help allievate their pain. But IMHO, the government are the ones who owe them this--the alleviation--not the general public. It doesn't mean I will shun them or hurt them or do any of the things done to Vietnam Vets-absolutely not! But it's about time our government stepped up and took responsibilty for their horrendous actions.

 

(and if you can't tell--this would be a good reason why I don't like it here :D)

 

Absolutely! The bright spot in all of this is the sense of pride we can all feel in our amazing troops. They are truly the most impressive group of people I've ever seen and I cry regularly hearing of their acts of unselfish bravery, courage, and compassion. We are blessed as a nation! I hope noone ever accuses you or anyone else with a dissenting opinon of not being supportive of our troops. They would be the first to say that being able to considerately disagree is what makes our country great!

[kRenee]

I have a question, not a statement, since I am not well educated in this area. No one has mentioned Al-Qaeda. If we pull out of the mid-east, won't Al-Qaeda once again overrun the area? And since their mission is to kill Americans, the stronger they are the more attacks we will see. Isn't one of our purposes in sending our troops over there to eliminate or at least to minimize their influence?

[GothicGyrl]

I have a question, not a statement, since I am not well educated in this area. No one has mentioned Al-Qaeda. If we pull out of the mid-east, won't Al-Qaeda once again overrun the area? And since their mission is to kill Americans, the stronger they are the more attacks we will see. Isn't one of our purposes in sending our troops over there to eliminate or at least to minimize their influence?

I guess it is a matter of whether or not you believe Al-Qaeda was really the threat or not. While I believe they are a threat, I'm not sure they are as big of a threat as our Government says (again, keep in mind how I feel about our government) because I don't trust our Gov. in the first place.

 

I don't believe their mission is to specifically kill US (as in us, not the united states specifically), but rather to kill ANYONE who they feel are insolent to their cause. Again, I feel that Al-Qaeda has been made to be bigger/badder than what they really are.

 

I'm not saying they are not a threat to us, but I do believe that there is something more going on that we don't know about--something being kept from the people. For example, we only found out about Saddam being captured by accident--we were not supposed to know (and anyone who calls for a cite, just google it, it's there).

 

I truly believe we've either already captured Bin Laden or we know where he is hiding and are "waiting". And I'm not the only one who thinks that Bush is "sitting on" Bin Laden either--there are a lot of people who think Bush is waiting to place his "ace of spades"--that is right at the end of his term, suddenly "capture" him.

 

And to be quite honest with you--if Al-Qaeda really is as big of a threat to the US as they claim--why the hell are we over there instead of working towards protecting here?

[Audrey]

And in truth, Audrey, I'd rather discuss politics and religion than the same old vacuum cleaner/boob holder/pms discussions we used to have.

 

The problem is, as Colleen said--some can't keep it civil. I should be able to voice my extreme displeasure with this war and Bush without being called names or told where I am going at the end of my life.

 

Dear gods! I so agree with you on the "same old" topics. I wasn't trying to chastise anyone with the mention of the old rule. I hadn't known it was no longer a rule. That's probably a good thing. I did say I thought the poll was a good idea, too.

 

For me, I'd rather have a poll on a hot topic like this, than just a straight discussion thread. I want to check my little box so my vote gets counted, too. However, I'm simply NOT going to get into spelling out my political opinions on THIS board. My politics are spelled out clearly on my blog, and I'm very, very, very sure that no one wants to hear me go on about what gets me hot under the collar about this war, or any other political topic. I save those rants for other, more topic-appropriate boards.

 

And, Colleen... that is NOT to say that I think your poll or this topic are not appropriate for this board. I'm simply saying that there are boards devoted to politics. I'll save my rants for there. OK? To say it again, I thought your poll was a GOOD one! :001_smile:

[GothicGyrl]

Hey Audrey--you could always just "ITA" the thread to death :D

 

Actually, I'd prefer to hear other viewpoints--even if opposing ones. So if you have a laundry list of what gets you hot under the collar (and the names Banderas and Depp aren't on the list :D)by all means, post!!

 

I just do not want some (that I know will if the other thread is any evidence), coming in here screaming "like it or leave" or "Bush was such the most Godly wonderful man" (because even some Christians who voted for him are thoroughly displeased at doing so now).. I just want to have an honest discussion the way Colleen intended the poll to be--that's all.

[Tutor]

I have a question, not a statement, since I am not well educated in this area. No one has mentioned Al-Qaeda. If we pull out of the mid-east, won't Al-Qaeda once again overrun the area? And since their mission is to kill Americans, the stronger they are the more attacks we will see. Isn't one of our purposes in sending our troops over there to eliminate or at least to minimize their influence?

 

Well, we went into Afghanistan because they were harboring Al-Qaeda. Our declared reason for going into Iraq had to do with "weapons of mass destruction" and genocide (which had been going on for decades). Al-Qaeda entered Iraq after we began military action because the instability created allowed them a foothold. However, they are not being harbored or supported by the government, so harboring terrorists is not a reason to be in Iraq. However, we do have intelligence that Bin Laden and other Al-Qaeda members are in Pakistan, but we aren't invading Pakistan. Why? President Bush said it was because they are a "sovereign nation". (Yeah, makes no sense to me, either.) We also know that the majority of the 9-11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, but we aren't going after them for harboring terrorists. I don't think Al-Queda organizes in Saudi Arabia, but an awful lot of recruiting seems to go on there.

 

I posted my opinions on this whole thing on my blog back in December. You can read it here if you are interested. The post is in response to a friend's email after learning who I was supporting for President. As you can tell from my friend's email, he doesn't support the same candidate. :D I have not written part two of this post yet, because I was getting so frustrated and depressed thinking about it. My candidate will not win the general election, but I think I am going to finish the series of posts I started since it forces me to really think through my position on these issues and allows me to confront objections when they are raised. Just another area of self-education, I suppose. :)

 

ETA: I realize that this is an oversimplified answer, but kRenee's question was a good one, and I wanted to address it, so I did my best.

[GothicGyrl]

Tutor--I'm blind--link me to that section cuz I can't find it. :)

[Tutor]

Tutor--I'm blind--link me to that section cuz I can't find it. :)

 

I'm a dope and hit "post" before I added the link. (I need a good "dope slap" smilie.) It's there now. :001_smile:

[Kate in Arabia]

If we pull out of the mid-east, won't Al-Qaeda once again overrun the area?

First of all, al-Qa'ida has never "overrun the area"; they have had training camps in some isolated locations, and more of a supporting group in Afghanistan when the Taliban were in power.

 

Second, I don't think anyone was suggesting pulling out of the entire Middle East. There is a military base quite close to me, as a matter of fact.. and just for people's general knowledge (not you specifically), the soldiers over here actually interact quite well.. I remember a while back there was an overcrowded dhow that sank off the coast, and the US Navy sent people in to help search for survivors, which I thought was way cool. :patriot:

[GothicGyrl]

Tutor--with the exception of wanting Ron Paul in (I don't like politicians, let alone Republican ones), all I can say is I SO TOTALLY agree with that post you made and look forward to the second half.

 

You did all the research and unemotionally explained why "Bill" was way off base.

 

Good Job!!

[Tutor]

Good Job!!

 

:o Thanks.

 

(I don't like politicians, let alone Republican ones)

 

I don't blame you. My dh's motto (which he stole, but I can't remember where from) is "Don't vote, it only encourages them."

[pixelroper]

can any of us say our opinions are based on cold hard facts? I often think there is more to the story (and the 'more' could make it either simpler or more complicated).

 

Between the mainstream media (I do believe it to be biased) and the internet allowing us access to never ending opinion and news columns from all over, trying to navigate the web of manipulated info(mostly opinion, not fact) is downright flabergasting!

 

What I'm trying to say is that any way I think about this issue brings about a string of tangents, that is ultimately debilitating. Feel like a rodent in a wheel. Anyone else feel this way? Maybe that is the plan?!?

 

I'm don't want to sit on the fence, just wishing top secret documents were available so I can make up my mind.

 

BTW I'm not advocating relativism.

[Kate in Arabia]

I don't think Al-Queda organizes in Saudi Arabia, but an awful lot of recruiting seems to go on there.

You know, the Saudis have so many deep-seated issues going on, I *almost* feel sorry for them, lol. They are doing quite a lot to try and stamp out extremist (to them) elements within the kingdom, employing tactics we sure wouldn't allow in our own country and pressing hard on many fronts. Time will tell how effective these techniques are, but they've got larger societal problems that, in my lofty opinion lol, continue to drive people to desperate causes.

 

jmo

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

I agree with a lot of what Tutor and GothicGyrl have said. I come from a military family. My brother served 18 months in Iraq. He would say "get out yesterday" too.

 

For many of the already stated reasons we don't belong there. I might say we need to stay a little while longer and clean up our mess, if I didn't know something about the history of that whole area. What we are trying to do is practically impossible.

 

We can not combine 3 separate peoples who think of themselves as individual tribal nations, into one unified Iraqi state, unless they want to be unified. Guess what, they don't really want to. This whole area was carved up in the 19th and 20th centuries by imperialists looking out for their own interests. The nations of the mid-east are psuedo nations, so are those of Africa, which is why there are so many problems there as well. And there will continue to be problems, because of the past nation building attempts of Western culture.

 

Our American mind-set keeps us from seeing how important these people's cultural roots are to them. They are like huge families being separated and/or forced to cooperate with other families that have no commonality. In our country we identify ourselves as Americans, whether we are Irish-American, African-American, or Asian-American. (Except for the American Indian, but that's another story.) The people of Iraq define themselves by their cultural groups: Kurds, Suni, Shiite. *We* call them Iraqi Kurds, Iraqi Suni, Iraqi Shiite. The word Iraqi has little meaning to them. They have no "Iraqi dream," no desire for a nation guided by the proposition that all men are created equal, no desire for an inclusive or "melting pot" society.

 

We are the occupiers. If we should ever leave that is what we will be remembered as. That is what we are remembered as in Vietnam, one of many former occupiers. That is what we are seen as in many parts of the world where we have troops stationed.

 

In the book The Thousand Year War in the Mid-East and How it Affects You Today is a good overview of the history of the area and shows the futility of what we are doing. And it was originally written before we invaded Iraq.

[ArwenA]

I'm not sure I should be voting as I'm Canadian but I did anyway.

I voted "Get out yesterday". I don't think the U.S. army should ever have gone Iraq. That is my honest opinion. When Canada was asked if they would join in I was one of the people that didn't want war, fighting, violence or whatever you want to call it.

I'm one of the people praying for world peace, how are we supposed to achieve peace when there are armies fighting. Couldn't we just resolve our conflicts peacefully?

I don't want to hurt any one's beliefs, I'm simply stating my opinion. I'll admit that I am probably not as well informed on this topic as many of you. It isn't my country that is fighting so my view may not be "fair". But I'm sharing it anyway.

[astrid]

The whole Iraq issue was predicated on a lie. There were no WMD's in Iraq, and Bush & Co. knew it.

[astrid]

I see I am not alone in the "get out yesterday" part, but I am the first to post a why--

 

We should have never gone there in the first place. We went there under false pretenses (WMD's that didn't exist), Saddam being responsible, etc...

 

We should have never gone. And if the need really was there for us to go, we should not be trying to instill American Values/beliefs into their nation. Our democracy doesn't even work half the time, what makes us think it will work over there?

 

Nope--should never have gone.

 

Democracy cannot be forced. Iraq has never been a democracy, their culture is not based on democratic principles, and to use military might to force another country to become a democracy is ludicrous.

[astrid]

Not snarky, I truly wonder.

 

As long as WHAT takes? What is "IT"? WHAT are we doing there? Stabilizing the region? It will never be stabilized, and our very presence is probably the most destabilizing feature.

 

What are you thinking will be accomplished by staying "as long as it takes" or 100 years as John McCain promises? (whichever comes first?)

[pixelroper]

out of curiosity: what should of been done about 9/11? Or does everyone see that as a separate issue?

 

curiosity killed the cat...I know, I know

[Jenny in Atl]

Democracy cannot be forced. Iraq has never been a democracy' date=' their culture is not based on democratic principles, and to use military might to force another country to become a democracy is ludicrous.[/quote']

 

The US is not even a democracy... I hate how this word is thrown around. I agree, one country can't make other countries/people do what they think is best for them, what is best and who decides?

 

I distrust most all governments, and think it's healthy to do so. All this is so hard.. This war was a mistake, but what of situations like Darfur? Tibet? and numerous other situations where governments are openly abusing and even slaughtering their people? I have no answers and feel the US should not be the world police... but what will become of this planet? Why have we never learned.

[Carol in Cal.]

The problem is, as Colleen said--some can't keep it civil. I should be able to voice my extreme displeasure with this war and Bush without being called names or told where I am going at the end of my life.

 

You know, although I have never been one of those responders you cite, I suspect that for them it's not so much the content, but the tone and manner of expression.

You're not being civil when you express opinions as fact, especially when you know that there are many who disagree with you. And naturally that evokes a strong response.

I don't defend incivility, but the ranting tends to evoke it. You can have extreme displeasure but express it respectfully, in a way that leaves room for those who disagree.

[Sharon in SC]

out of curiosity: what should of been done about 9/11? Or does everyone see that as a separate issue? curiosity killed the cat...I know, I know

 

Me-ow..... count me in with the basket of kittens.... :)

 

I think about the days my maternal grandfather spent fighting the Germans as a WWII paratrooper (101st Airborne) where he ultimately gave his life at the ripe age of 24. I am SO thankful that Americans took a stand against the threats to our freedom in that generation. History reveals that Pearl Harbor was the catalyst for that. In my mind, 9/11 fits the same bill in the issues that stand for this current generation.