Quiverfull Ladies... Did you see this?

[Michelle My Bell]

I just watched this and was a little confused by it. I am not for or against the quiverfull idea. I am just open to what God has for me and my family. This was a little strange for me. What did you all think?

 

Michelle

[milovany]

I don't have a reaction, really, but just wanted to comment that the family pictured in the article is a family we were good friends with when we lived in Colorado (the Jeubs; they were on TLC's Kids By The Dozen show a couple of years ago) and they are a wonderful, happy family. Just by including this pic in the article, to me, it implies (our could imply) that they are one of these "unhappy" quiverful families and they're so NOT. They're awesome with happy, healthy kids who know they are loved and respected.

[Renee in NC]

I have heard of this woman before (that divorced her dh.) The problem I see with the book mentioned is that not all families who are quiverfull are patriarchal. That is disturbing to me! I am very, very against the patriarchal movement but not against quiverfull.

[katemary63]

Shouldn't they have made a connection for us between the daughter's suicide and the quiverfull movement? I don't see how they are related? She may have an opinion that they are related but it is not shared so how can we accept what she says? Dumb.

[Renee in NC]

Shouldn't they have made a connection for us between the daughter's suicide and the quiverfull movement? I don't see how they are related? She may have an opinion that they are related but it is not shared so how can we accept what she says? Dumb.

 

The author of the article seems to have just used a snippet of a conversation to prove the point. I imagine there is a larger back story. If you google her name, you can read the whole story on a blog (I don't remember where, but I have read it in the past.)

[Sophia]

My first thought re. Joyce and Garrison is that they have had bad experiences and now feel it is their duty to warn everyone else; never mind others may not be in similarly dysfunctional relationships that would lead to the same results.

For instance, I know some families who could be described as patriarchal and quiverful, who in no way resemble the type of family Garrison described hers to be (in her blog.) That is, the unreasonable, oppressive, ultimately unChristlike atmosphere that is created by following a lifestyle rather than Christ.

Her story is sad but imo not representative of quiverful or 'patriarchal' families.

[kiana]

The author of the article seems to have just used a snippet of a conversation to prove the point. I imagine there is a larger back story. If you google her name, you can read the whole story on a blog (I don't remember where, but I have read it in the past.)

 

If you're talking about Garrison, it's at nolongerquivering.com

[Quiver0f10]

Shouldn't they have made a connection for us between the daughter's suicide and the quiverfull movement? I don't see how they are related? She may have an opinion that they are related but it is not shared so how can we accept what she says? Dumb.

 

 

I don't see the connection either? I submit to my husband and see him as the leader of our home, we leave our fertility to God and I am very happy. To each their own.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Quiver0f10

[Guest aquiverfull]

I didn't try to watch the link provided, I did try to go to the blog several times, but my firefox just keeps crashing. I've never heard of anything like this. But we are just like quiverof10. My husband is the leader of our home. Doesn't the Bible say that is his role? I submit myself to him, just like the bible says. We also have a very happy marriage and home life. I truly don't see how you wouldn't have a happy family if everyone is submissive to God and following his word as he designed it to be.

[momtoboys]

Didn't watch the link. We are not "quiverful", though, I have *great* respect for anyone who can balance a huge family and do a good job discipling their children and managing their home and finances.

 

I personally am not of the "patriarchal" belief either. I don't see Scriptural context for it, especially when you examine the passages used in context, in the original languages, etc. (which is also why I am not of the quiverful belief).

 

I do have a problem when parents have a ton of children and basically make the older ones "raise" the younger ones. I am *NOT* saying kids shouldn't help out and treat their siblings kindly, etc. There's nothing wrong with an older sister changing diapers, or an older brother helping his younger brother with his schoolwork. However, the older children didn't choose to have the younger children. . they are NOT their parents. . .and making an older child "be the mom or dad" in a sense, and do all the primary watching and raising of a younger sibling is stealing the childhood of the older sibling.

 

Again, I am a proponent of normal chores and responsibilities.

 

Other potential thoughts about having a lot of children:

 

1. To say everyone should "leave the number of children they have up to God" is to discount the fact that some people have significant health problems. First, if they can't have children, they may feel like God has passed them by or is not blessing them for some reason. Secondly, I personally get SO sick when pregnant, that I cannot see it as being a wise decision for me to have more than one more child, when that would be against the advice of medical professionals. (Yes, I know that some would say "God will take care of you", but I do believe God uses people to speak to us. And he expects us to use wisdom.)

 

2. It is, in my opinion, irresponsible financially for a family to have tons of children they cannot afford. I have seen families living in extreme poverty and they keep on having children. This seems like it can't be a responsible, Godly decision. But, that is between them and God.

 

3. How many children can you effectively love and disciple? I read a book about raising spiritual champions, and statistically the spiritual life and depth of the children as adults trended downward w/ each subsequent sibling after two, because the parents had less time to focus on training and child-rearing, and just showing God's love to the child. Now, some parents can probably still do a *GREAT* job, I firmly believe that, even with 10 or more kids. But, it is something to consider.

 

In the end, I personally believe Scripture is silent on the issue, when you look at the total context.

 

But, as I stated at the beginning, I totally respect those who can have a very large family and do it right/well. :001_smile:

 

Just some random Sunday afternoon thoughts on the subject!:tongue_smilie:

[Impish]

I don't get the connection btwn Quiverful and the suicide attempt either. To say its not what they signed up for, not part of the program...well, you can say that about ANY lifestyle/religion/belief. No parent ever is prepared for their child to attempt to end their life.

[PeterPan]

Actually, that divorced ex-Quiver lady and the author of the book mentioned were both on the new show Joy (??) has on Headline News. It's aired several times now. For balance, they also had at the table a happy Quiverful lady who I think was catholic. The happy quivering lady take issue with many of the points the author made and felt she had lumped too many things together, confusing the patriarchy movement (I assume like Douglas Wilson?) with Quivering and with those who don't use birth control. The author also in the interview (and apparently in the book) seemed to lump together other things like a movement against women getting education, etc. So the happily quivering lady took issue with a lot of that.

 

Now as for the ex-quiverer, I'm sorry her dd was so sick and had personal problems, but the lady herself was a nut. At least that's how she came across in the interview.

[Renee in NC]

Actually, that divorced ex-Quiver lady and the author of the book mentioned were both on the new show Joy (??) has on Headline News. It's aired several times now. For balance, they also had at the table a happy Quiverful lady who I think was catholic. The happy quivering lady take issue with many of the points the author made and felt she had lumped too many things together, confusing the patriarchy movement (I assume like Douglas Wilson?) with Quivering and with those who don't use birth control. The author also in the interview (and apparently in the book) seemed to lump together other things like a movement against women getting education, etc. So the happily quivering lady took issue with a lot of that.

 

Now as for the ex-quiverer, I'm sorry her dd was so sick and had personal problems, but the lady herself was a nut. At least that's how she came across in the interview.

 

Exactly.

[Renee in NC]

I didn't try to watch the link provided, I did try to go to the blog several times, but my firefox just keeps crashing. I've never heard of anything like this. But we are just like quiverof10. My husband is the leader of our home. Doesn't the Bible say that is his role? I submit myself to him, just like the bible says. We also have a very happy marriage and home life. I truly don't see how you wouldn't have a happy family if everyone is submissive to God and following his word as he designed it to be.

 

I don't disagree with you or Jean! The husband being the leader of the home is just a small part of the patriarchy movement. I don't take issue with that!

[asta]

Didn't watch the link. We are not "quiverful", though, I have *great* respect for anyone who can balance a huge family and do a good job discipling their children and managing their home and finances.

 

I personally am not of the "patriarchal" belief either. I don't see Scriptural context for it, especially when you examine the passages used in context, in the original languages, etc. (which is also why I am not of the quiverful belief).

 

I do have a problem when parents have a ton of children and basically make the older ones "raise" the younger ones. I am *NOT* saying kids shouldn't help out and treat their siblings kindly, etc. There's nothing wrong with an older sister changing diapers, or an older brother helping his younger brother with his schoolwork. However, the older children didn't choose to have the younger children. . they are NOT their parents. . .and making an older child "be the mom or dad" in a sense, and do all the primary watching and raising of a younger sibling is stealing the childhood of the older sibling.

 

Again, I am a proponent of normal chores and responsibilities.

 

Other potential thoughts about having a lot of children:

 

1. To say everyone should "leave the number of children they have up to God" is to discount the fact that some people have significant health problems. First, if they can't have children, they may feel like God has passed them by or is not blessing them for some reason. Secondly, I personally get SO sick when pregnant, that I cannot see it as being a wise decision for me to have more than one more child, when that would be against the advice of medical professionals. (Yes, I know that some would say "God will take care of you", but I do believe God uses people to speak to us. And he expects us to use wisdom.)

 

2. It is, in my opinion, irresponsible financially for a family to have tons of children they cannot afford. I have seen families living in extreme poverty and they keep on having children. This seems like it can't be a responsible, Godly decision. But, that is between them and God.

 

3. How many children can you effectively love and disciple? I read a book about raising spiritual champions, and statistically the spiritual life and depth of the children as adults trended downward w/ each subsequent sibling after two, because the parents had less time to focus on training and child-rearing, and just showing God's love to the child. Now, some parents can probably still do a *GREAT* job, I firmly believe that, even with 10 or more kids. But, it is something to consider.

 

In the end, I personally believe Scripture is silent on the issue, when you look at the total context.

 

But, as I stated at the beginning, I totally respect those who can have a very large family and do it right/well. :001_smile:

 

Just some random Sunday afternoon thoughts on the subject!:tongue_smilie:

 

Wow. You just wrote a whole bunch of things I've been wanting to say, but had not figured out *how* to say. Thank you very, very much.

 

Re #2 - I have wondered about this. I wonder about people who figure public assistance into their family budget (WIC, food stamps, state health insurance) because there is *no way* their income can possibly cover the size of their family. Yet they continue to grow their family. That isn't "God will provide", that is "the rest of society is providing so that I can do as I wish".

 

Re #3 - I have met absolutely incredible, loving, and wonderful large families (grew up in Catholic/Mormon communities) and have also (unfortunately) met a very large family wherein yes, the mother was quite ill, yet continued to bear children. She relied on the oldest children to raise the littles. They had to rise at five for church, to do their own chores and lessons, and then to teach the littles. The two oldest used to come to our house to hide and/or vent. It was quite sad. The oldest boy was brilliant, but was constantly demeaned. The oldest girl was also extremely bright, but was told that she should not expect to go beyond a high school education (even though both parents had completed college and the family was well off). I never quite understood the dynamic there.

 

I don't know - I guess extremes exist in any situation. I think what the woman in the video was trying to get across was that she was so caught up in the concept of "must do this, must do that" that she lost track of what was right in front of her. This can happen to everyone, yes, but I imagine it could happen more easily the more distracted one is, and the more responsibility one has to bear. She may be equating more children with more responsibility, ergo...

 

Just my .02

 

 

a

[angela in ohio]

I know QF families who have fabulous dc and are doing it to follow the Lord, and I know QF families who are out to be "famous" and martyrs and do whatever they can to have as many as possible to "brag their numbers" while neglecting the dc they do have. There is no guarantee of godliness on either side of the QF debate, just as there is no guarantee of godliness in or out of any other movement. I know fabulous ps kids, and I know wretched hs kids. Nothing is a guarantee, and legalism is a sin.

 

I personally believe the Catholic approach, though I'm not Catholic: natural conception to natural death. I am not impressed by those who say they are trusting God but are medicating themselves or employing other methods to get pregnant as much as possible, which is where I see some Protestant QF families heading. That is my only concern about QF,

 

But about this woman specifically: as someone already said, she is a nut. It is easier to find something or someone to blame instead of feeling like a failure as a parent. I fell badly that she had a bad childhood and didn't learn the skills to live as a healthy family, but that is separate from her QF lifestyle, imho. Also, she says that she "did all the right things" and her dd attempted suicide anyway. Thinking you can do all the right things is the first problem, and that is a clue that she never really got it.

 

I also agree that lumping the extreme form of several different movements together is just sensationalism. There are people who are into all that, but then there are those like us: husband leads, girls educated, out in the world daily but sheltered from media, Bible literalists but legalism loathers... There are too many variables to start lumping people together and skewering them.

[Guest aquiverfull]

I don't disagree with you or Jean! The husband being the leader of the home is just a small part of the patriarchy movement. I don't take issue with that!

 

I wasn't directing my response to you Renee. Sorry if it seemed like I was. I'm not even sure what the quiverfull or patriarchy movement is. :confused:

I just try to follow my Bible to the best of my ability. I apologize if my response seemed directed to you. I was just generally stating my feelings. :001_smile:

[Stacie]

I personally believe the Catholic approach, though I'm not Catholic: natural conception to natural death. I am not impressed by those who say they are trusting God but are medicating themselves or employing other methods to get pregnant as much as possible, which is where I see some Protestant QF families heading. That is my only concern about QF,

 

 

 

I'm genuinely curious about your surmising that Catholic quiverful people do it right compared to Protestant quiverful people. Is there a difference?

 

Personally, I know of both Catholic and Protestant quiverful families. Most have wonderful family dynamics but a couple of families are well-outside of the norm, specifically two families with which I am no longer friends. One decided to actively pursue another child as opposed to letting God control it because, as she put it, one more will qualify their family for public assistance, food stamps, and medicaid. The other family was just all about the numbers and attention of the community, not giving attention to their own children. One was Protestant and one was Catholic.

 

I just can't see how one group can be considered correct and one incorrect, when so many variances and interpretations of the quiverful "movement" abound. I'm not picking a fight, just honestly asking the difference. :)

[Sue G in PA]

A friend of mine used to always say to me that, "God gives us wisdom"...to make our own choices, that are right for our family. I LOVE having lots of kids, but my mental health is shaky right now. Having another child would not bode well for ME, for my dh or for my existing children. KWIM? The woman in the article and on the video seems to think that somehow following God makes us immune to the challenges and trials and suffering of LIFE! Perhaps she should read the Bible, particlularly the part where Jesus said that in this life we WOULD have trouble...but to take heart b/c HE has overcome the WORLD! We have hope...in spite of depressions and attempted suicide. Whether or not her daughter was mentally unstable b/c of neglect or her mother or father's failings or b/c of a chemcial inbalance or BOTH...we'll never know. I almost committed suicide as a teen...and I only had ONE brother! Anyway, I would love to place my fertility into God's hands and go on conceiving for as long as I am able. But, I do not believe that is His plan for MY life. I believe certain people are called to lead this lifestyle. Michelle Duggar and her dh certainly are called to do this. ME? I'm not so sure. It's all about choices. And if you are married, you should be making them WITH yor dh...not letting him control and use your body selfishly. The Bible tells us to submit to one another and it also calls the husband to LOVE his wife as Christ loved the church. I don't think that is what this woman's dh was doing. Okay...off my soapbox now. :)

[Renee in NC]

I'm genuinely curious about your surmising that Catholic quiverful people do it right compared to Protestant quiverful people. Is there a difference?

 

Personally, I know of both Catholic and Protestant quiverful families. Most have wonderful family dynamics but a couple of families are well-outside of the norm, specifically two families with which I am no longer friends. One decided to actively pursue another child as opposed to letting God control it because, as she put it, one more will qualify their family for public assistance, food stamps, and medicaid. The other family was just all about the numbers and attention of the community, not giving attention to their own children. One was Protestant and one was Catholic.

 

I just can't see how one group can be considered correct and one incorrect, when so many variances and interpretations of the quiverful "movement" abound. I'm not picking a fight, just honestly asking the difference. :)

 

The Catholic Church does not allow for fertility treatments - I thought that is what she meant. So, in a Catholic family, QF would mean many children or none, as God gives them. Just following the Church's teachings does not make you QF in the strictest sense (so I won't call myself that!;))

 

The Catholic Church allows for NFP (but not artificial contraception) for *grave* reasons - physical, mental, financial, etc.

[angela in ohio]

I just can't see how one group can be considered correct and one incorrect, when so many variances and interpretations of the quiverful "movement" abound. I'm not picking a fight, just honestly asking the difference. :)

 

That's not what I said, though. I didn't say all Catholics are doing it right. I said that I am in line with the Catholic teaching on this. I have no idea what the statistics are on the Catholics following that teaching. I wasn't commenting at all on Catholic families, only using their doctrine to explain my beliefs.

 

I said that some Protestant families are taking matters into their own hands to get their numbers up. I have seen that trend in some Protestant QF families I know, and it seems odd to me (we can't intervene to stop a pregnancy, but we can intervene to create one.) It is my one contention with some of the QF movement.

 

Whether they are raising the large families well is another matter entirely. I know large families of several different religious beliefs. I see no clear lines marking who is doing it well and who isn't. I think it has little to do with the size of the family, though. There are good parents and poor parents with all different sizes of families.

[angela in ohio]

The Catholic Church does not allow for fertility treatments - I thought that is what she meant. So, in a Catholic family, QF would mean many children or none, as God gives them. Just following the Church's teachings does not make you QF in the strictest sense (so I won't call myself that!;))

 

 

That's exactly what I meant Thanks!

 

I don't know many Catholic families who identify themselves as QF. They just call themselves Catholics. :D

[Quiver0f10]

nevermind

Edited November 15, 2009 by Quiver0f10

[lionfamily1999]

She put God ahead of her family and that was wrong? That jumped out at me...

 

The whole article seems like a bunch of leaps in logic. I knew a kid raised by athiests, they were quite affluent and he was an only child. He killed himself. Does that mean affluent athiests with only one child are marking their child for suicide? Uh, no.

[sunshine]

She put God ahead of her family and that was wrong? That jumped out at me...

 

The whole article seems like a bunch of leaps in logic. I knew a kid raised by athiests, they were quite affluent and he was an only child. He killed himself. Does that mean affluent athiests with only one child are marking their child for suicide? Uh, no.

 

:iagree: I think someone wanted to justify her divorce and her poor parenting. She should have been putting her children first beside God and her husband from the beginning. The husband must have been very controlling and distant from the family. You can live a "lifestyle" and do everything for show, which is what it sounds like they were doing. Not trying to glorify God in their marriage, children and life. Had that been the focus, then she may have noticed her daughter was having trouble years before it ended in the suicide attempt. Her children were her trophies, not the blessings that God says they are.

Edited November 15, 2009 by sunshine
realllllly poor grammar. Might not have fixed much.

[Stacie]

That's not what I said, though. I didn't say all Catholics are doing it right. I said that I am in line with the Catholic teaching on this. I have no idea what the statistics are on the Catholics following that teaching. I wasn't commenting at all on Catholic families, only using their doctrine to explain my beliefs.

 

I said that some Protestant families are taking matters into their own hands to get their numbers up. I have seen that trend in some Protestant QF families I know, and it seems odd to me (we can't intervene to stop a pregnancy, but we can intervene to create one.) It is my one contention with some of the QF movement.

 

Whether they are raising the large families well is another matter entirely. I know large families of several different religious beliefs. I see no clear lines marking who is doing it well and who isn't. I think it has little to do with the size of the family, though. There are good parents and poor parents with all different sizes of families.

 

Thanks for explaining it! I found it odd to differentiate between quiverfull and faith affiliations, but you've cleared it up for me.

 

I think the word "quiverful" has become synonomous with "large family" when it is different. Quivers come in many sizes!

[Paz]

I watched the entire Secret Lives of Women show when it was on the other night. I didn't watch the link posted right now but there was another part of the story about the family that left the quiverful movement that it seems was left out of the article and link. She had a baby out of wedlock before she met her husband. When she got married her husband adopted this child but aparently as they began to have other kids the mother became very sick and the oldest child had the responsibility of practically raising all the kids. Her father was very critical of her and she felt like she had to be perfect but couldn't so she had a lot of stress in her life. In my opinion, the difficulties they had in their lives were more family dynamics than quiverful related.

[coffeefreak]

I spent the afternoon reading her story from nolongerquivering.com. It really explains everything in detail (almost too much) so I would encourage everyone to go there to get the full story. I see her story as more about the problems with legalism in the church, and letting other people make decisions for you. Not so much about whether or not you and your husband decide to use birth control in your family planning. She tells it from a very factual point of view. Her writing is in a style of, "this is what happened." Not so much, "Christians stink." :001_smile:

 

Dorinda

[LadyAberlin]

Shouldn't they have made a connection for us between the daughter's suicide and the quiverfull movement? I don't see how they are related? She may have an opinion that they are related but it is not shared so how can we accept what she says? Dumb.

 

 

Yeah that is what I kept thinking? How did being quiverfull cause her daughter to be suicidal and why did that mean she needed to get divorced?