Logic stage age - Revised poll

[HiddenJewel]

How old were your children when they reached the logic stage of thinking as in asking of the "why" questions, beginning to learn how to analyze, AND making connections and comparisons?

 

(Thanks, Lori, for the description!)

Edited October 28, 2009 by HiddenJewel

[Paula in PA]

With that criteria, my 9yo dd is in the beginning stages now.

[lionfamily1999]

Ds is starting to make some really interesting connections now.

 

We read about the Feudal System and he made a pretty good case for how we are under the Feudal System. Yes, I know he was wrong. Yes, we went over it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

My highly gifted ds was in the logic stage very early. I suspect that my dd will hit logic stage around age 10. (She's only 7 now but based on her general development).

[HiddenJewel]

Wow! This board must have a lot of above average children. I am very surprised that so many hit the logic stage by 9.

[jg_puppy]

Wow! This board must have a lot of above average children. I am very surprised that so many hit the logic stage by 9.

 

Where is the description of Logic stage?

 

Jan

[thowell]

I'm still waiting!

[HiddenJewel]

Where is the description of Logic stage?

 

Jan

 

It was the second part of the question in my original post.

asking of the "why" questions, beginning to learn how to analyze, AND making connections and comparisons?

[Michelle T]

be

Michelle T

[LibraryLover]

I would not consider the 8 or 9 or even 10 yr to be truly at the Logic Stage. Asking Why questions is but a small piece.

[HiddenJewel]

I would not consider the 8 or 9 or even 10 yr to be truly at the Logic Stage. Asking Why questions is but a small piece.

 

That was what I was thinking and why I included the analytical and connections/comparison attributes as well. Anyone else have an idea what should be used to describe the logic stage?

[lionfamily1999]

I would not consider the 8 or 9 or even 10 yr to be truly at the Logic Stage. Asking Why questions is but a small piece.

So, is the logic stage an age or a state of mind?

[Jean in Newcastle]

So, is the logic stage an age or a state of mind?

 

It is a mental developmental stage. It is more than being able to ask why questions - it is being able to start to put forward a coherant argument.

[KAR120C]

DS was wayyyyy young when he reached that stage -- coherent arguments and all. But in my experience teaching kids in general (book discussion groups, math groups, Sunday school), I would say 9 is usually on the young side... ten or eleven seems more common.

 

What I would add to the logic stage description (whether this is officially part of it or just IMO...) is being able to articulate your reasoning. I've taught a bunch of kids who can get to an answer but can't explain how they got there. They're almost to where I'd say the Logic Stage begins, but something still hasn't clicked into place. Not that they have to be brilliantly clear about it, but they have to be able to walk through the steps with good reasoning... Kind of like showing your work in math.

[Carrie12345]

Some days I think my 6 and 7yos are closer to it than my 11yo! :tongue_smilie:

[lionfamily1999]

It is a mental developmental stage. It is more than being able to ask why questions - it is being able to start to put forward a coherant argument.

Ds does, of course we've had no formal logic (and won't until he's in 5th grade), so his arguments are not laid out properly :p

 

I only asked, because the response seemed to insinuate that logic stage could not be reached before a certain age.

[HiddenJewel]

I only asked, because the response seemed to insinuate that logic stage could not be reached before a certain age.

 

It definitely is not a particular age but a switch to a different thought process (from concrete to abstract). Perhaps I live under a rock but I didn't think that most 9 year olds could think abstractly and were ready for discussions that come from that.

Edited October 28, 2009 by HiddenJewel

[HiddenJewel]

It is a mental developmental stage. It is more than being able to ask why questions - it is being able to start to put forward a coherant argument.

 

I thought the rhetoric stage was where they started being able to put forward a coherent argument. Do they start it in logic and then perfect it in rhetoric?

 

Thanks.

[Melissa in Australia]

That was what I was thinking and why I included the analytical and connections/comparison attributes as well. Anyone else have an idea what should be used to describe the logic stage?

my best description of when they enter the logic stage is they become pert, they argue about everything. they are questioning everything, not just arguing and questioning me, but the whole world.

To me , this is the sign to start teaching logic as a formal subject.

[angela in ohio]

Wow! This board must have a lot of above average children. I am very surprised that so many hit the logic stage by 9.

 

Half of the children I know are above average. ;)

 

I put 12 in the poll (and my dc are certifiably gifted :D.) When my dc were 8, I would have said 8. Hindsight is 20/20, though.

 

Of course, I wasn't using the definition given. And I'm not really an ages-stages kind of gal...

[HiddenJewel]

Of course, I wasn't using the definition given. And I'm not really an ages-stages kind of gal...

 

If you don't watch for your children's development stages, how do you know when it is most beneficial to use different levels of material? An example being not putting a student in pre-algebra who is still thinking concretely. Or trying to have your child analyze literature when he is not ready for that yet.

[angela in ohio]

If you don't watch for your children's development stages, how do you know when it is most beneficial to use different levels of material? An example being not putting a student in pre-algebra who is still thinking concretely. Or trying to have your child analyze literature when he is not ready for that yet.

 

Oh, I do watch for my children's development. I just, like some other people, don't believe that Dorothy Sayers correctly interpreted the Trivium when she nailed it to age categories. ;) I track how my dc are developing in all area of the Trivium (as well as other skills) all along. I don't necessarily believe that there is a "Logic stage."

 

I keep from errors like you mention by keeping my self-worth firmly divorced from my dc's accomplishments, but that is another thread. ;)

[HiddenJewel]

Oh, I do watch for my children's development. I just, like some other people, don't believe that Dorothy Sayers correctly interpreted the Trivium when she nailed it to age categories. ;) I track how my dc are developing in all area of the Trivium (as well as other skills) all along. I don't necessarily believe that there is a "Logic stage."

 

I keep from errors like you mention by keeping my self-worth firmly divorced from my dc's accomplishments, but that is another thread. ;)

 

Oh, I didn't know that Dorothy Sayers connected it to age. I've never read her material. I've only read WTM and the older my dc get, the more the stages make sense.

 

So if you don't believe in a logic stage (which I thought was part of the Trivium), what are the parts to the Trivium you ascribe to?

[KAR120C]

Oh, I do watch for my children's development. I just, like some other people, don't believe that Dorothy Sayers correctly interpreted the Trivium when she nailed it to age categories. ;) I track how my dc are developing in all area of the Trivium (as well as other skills) all along. I don't necessarily believe that there is a "Logic stage."

If there is no "logic stage", what developmental levels came at 12 (and, in hindsight, not at 8)?

 

I don't entirely buy into the grammar/logic/rhetoric stages myself, and certainly not tied to specific ages, but then I think the specific ages thing was really what the OP was asking. So now I'm curious if the spread is all because of the variability of development or if we're all using different definitions...

[HiddenJewel]

I don't entirely buy into the grammar/logic/rhetoric stages myself, and certainly not tied to specific ages, but then I think the specific ages thing was really what the OP was asking. So now I'm curious if the spread is all because of the variability of development or if we're all using different definitions...

 

I agree that this is becoming confusing. I will try explain my question.

 

Children moving through the trivium stages is making more and more sense to me. What I was trying to ascertain is at what age others have observed their children making the switches in stages, particularly between the grammar and logic stage. What I failed to do is look up a solid definition that puts into words what my picture of the logic stage is from reading the WTM and other classical information.

[angela in ohio]

If there is no "logic stage", what developmental levels came at 12 (and, in hindsight, not at 8)?

 

I don't entirely buy into the grammar/logic/rhetoric stages myself, and certainly not tied to specific ages, but then I think the specific ages thing was really what the OP was asking. So now I'm curious if the spread is all because of the variability of development or if we're all using different definitions...

 

I knew what the OP meant, so I answered based on that. There is a maturation in thought at about 12 or 13 or so that allows for more logical thought, so I was voting based on that. I just don't tie it to a specific part of the Trivium.

 

The spread is mostly based on different people's interpretation of when their dc became capable of more mature thought, IMHO.

[angela in ohio]

Oh, I didn't know that Dorothy Sayers connected it to age. I've never read her material. I've only read WTM and the older my dc get, the more the stages make sense.

 

So if you don't believe in a logic stage (which I thought was part of the Trivium), what are the parts to the Trivium you ascribe to?

 

Most modern interpretations of the classical model, including WTM, are based on Sayer's essay (excepting a few.) Every classical homeschooler should read it: The Lost Tools of Learning

 

I believe wholly that as we learn any subject, we go through the three stages of the Trivium: first grammar, then logic, then rhetoric. I believe we do this whether we learn it at 10 or 40. I think an understanding of this makes education simpler, I also think that mastering the skills of each stage makes it easier to learn.

 

Separately, I think that children go through developmental stages that make them more capable of many things, including the skills of the Trivium.

 

But we are way off on a rabbit trail. You can search these boards for conversations about Sayers or the Trivium and see much wiser people than me discuss this (Drew od the LCC, for example.)

 

And lest anyone take this as an indictment of the WTM: If you follow the WTM, your dc will learn the skills of the Trivium and be well-prepared.

[babysparkler]

I would say that my Ds9 is in Logic... was probably as early as 8.... He amazes me with his abstract understanding of Math and is doing fabulously in Algebra this year... and his sense of humor is well above his age. He is quick to notice the "ironic" things in his world, and is constantly making connections between and within his curricula. He not only can tell me the "why's" of things, but also is quick to find the "exceptions" to every rule (and quite enjoys it!)

 

What do you think? Will my hindsight tell me differently?

[lionfamily1999]

It definitely is not a particular age but a switch to a different thought process (from concrete to abstract). Perhaps I live under a rock but I didn't think that most 9 year olds could think abstractly and were ready for discussions that come from that.

It's really hard to judge, for me. Ds comes up with some of the greatest connections. He makes ME think about things from a different angle. There is a measure of defensiveness in my response, if only because I'm not trying to say my son is a bonafide genius, I'm still trying to figure out where he fits in. His connections, though, and the descriptions listed here, are setting off flashers for me. I still wouldn't start Logic early, maybe that's wrong of me, but I want him to have more facts, before he starts that. For now, though, he does draw incredible conclusions from the various subjects we're studying. Not just within a particular subject, but from one subject to another.

I thought the rhetoric stage was where they started being able to put forward a coherent argument. Do they start it in logic and then perfect it in rhetoric?

 

Thanks.

:bigear:

my best description of when they enter the logic stage is they become pert, they argue about everything. they are questioning everything, not just arguing and questioning me, but the whole world.

To me , this is the sign to start teaching logic as a formal subject.

Our dictionary opens to the page with "contradict" automatically. :lol:

[HiddenJewel]

It's really hard to judge, for me. Ds comes up with some of the greatest connections. He makes ME think about things from a different angle. There is a measure of defensiveness in my response, if only because I'm not trying to say my son is a bonafide genius, I'm still trying to figure out where he fits in. His connections, though, and the descriptions listed here, are setting off flashers for me. I still wouldn't start Logic early, maybe that's wrong of me, but I want him to have more facts, before he starts that. For now, though, he does draw incredible conclusions from the various subjects we're studying. Not just within a particular subject, but from one subject to another. :bigear:

 

 

 

 

That is great that he can do that!

 

Our dictionary opens to the page with "contradict" automatically. :lol:

 

I have one of those too.

[lionfamily1999]

That's why I won't move him up to Logic, because it's him. Ds just seems to be an argumentative over thinker, iykwIm.

 

 

I didn't answer the poll, because I don't even know if he has reached the logic stage, or if one day he'll wake up and the ideas and connections coming from him cause my brain to explode.

[AuntieM]

I have one that reached the logic stage at about 7.5. I suspect it will be the same with his younger sister, now 4.5.

 

I have two others, 12yo b/g twins, who are just getting to the logic stage now.

 

Based on my experience, in my family, I deem them ready for the logic stage when they move beyond cramming in and regurgitating information to the actual act of synthesizing and connecting the information, with a beginner level skill of being able to form their own conclusions in basic essay form (a paragraph or two, a journal assignment, just something in a tangible form that I can evaluate). So, perhaps some will see that as a sort-of combination of logic and rhetoric. I just think it demonstrates a full thought process from inception to conclusion.

 

I personally believe it is an individual thing, and that while it's convenient to define an age range for the logic stage, each child is different.

 

JMO :)

[Storm Bay]

I put others, because they were all different. They were all younger than 9. This is why my dd's couldn't learn the rote way at those ages. Ds can to some degree because he's more of a verbal learner in some areas, but it was very hard to teach him to read, in part because he wanted to do logic level thinking about what we read at the same time he was struggling to decode phonics and learn to read Dick and Jane. He also needed to have one of his eyes patched to strengthen a weak eye. But he was latish in taking off with reading; it was only about a year ago that he took off with reading and his fine motor skills were delayed so it was hard for him to learn to write. (he's 9 now)

[KAR120C]

Based on my experience, in my family, I deem them ready for the logic stage when they move beyond cramming in and regurgitating information to the actual act of synthesizing and connecting the information, with a beginner level skill of being able to form their own conclusions in basic essay form (a paragraph or two, a journal assignment, just something in a tangible form that I can evaluate). So, perhaps some will see that as a sort-of combination of logic and rhetoric. I just think it demonstrates a full thought process from inception to conclusion.

So in concrete terms (LOL) - it would be the difference between arithmetic and algebra, and the difference between a report and an essay. Not just having specific facts tied to specific things, but using the specifics to generalize rules, connecting facts from a wide variety of sources or subjects, and drawing conclusions. And then I think of rhetoric as the point when they're not just drawing conclusions but making them elegant.

 

The types of work I associate with the logic stage would be algebra and geometry, essays on literature and history, and science experimentation with original ideas... compared with the grammar stage work of arithmetic, narrations or reports on literature and history, and science facts. Not to say they don't slop over in both directions of course - nothing about children can be that neat! LOL

 

I've taught a wide range of kids, in one setting or another, from kindergarten through high school ages, and of course there are significant leaps all along the way. But the one I would call "logic stage" seems to come for most of them right around 10 or 11, maybe a little later for some, certainly earlier for others, and doesn't really seem to relate to whether they're academically advanced or not. Some kids are really wildly brilliant at the grammar stage stuff but haven't quite made that leap yet. They're still brilliant, and when it clicks they're "there", but there's no guarantee that they'll be early to reach that point.

 

One of my math kids was driving his mother batty because he had always been really good at math.... but he just wasn't ready for algebra at all until pretty close to the "usual" age. They ended up going around in circles for three years!

[Storm Bay]

So in concrete terms (LOL) - it would be the difference between arithmetic and algebra, and the difference between a report and an essay. Not just having specific facts tied to specific things, but using the specifics to generalize rules, connecting facts from a wide variety of sources or subjects, and drawing conclusions. And then I think of rhetoric as the point when they're not just drawing conclusions but making them elegant.

 

The types of work I associate with the logic stage would be algebra and geometry, essays on literature and history, and science experimentation with original ideas... compared with the grammar stage work of arithmetic, narrations or reports on literature and history, and science facts. Not to say they don't slop over in both directions of course - nothing about children can be that neat! LOL

 

 

I've taught a wide range of kids, in one setting or another, from kindergarten through high school ages, and of course there are significant leaps all along the way. But the one I would call "logic stage" seems to come for most of them right around 10 or 11, maybe a little later for some, certainly earlier for others, and doesn't really seem to relate to whether they're academically advanced or not. Some kids are really wildly brilliant at the grammar stage stuff but haven't quite made that leap yet. They're still brilliant, and when it clicks they're "there", but there's no guarantee that they'll be early to reach that point.

 

One of my math kids was driving his mother batty because he had always been really good at math.... but he just wasn't ready for algebra at all until pretty close to the "usual" age. They ended up going around in circles for three years!

 

 

Right. So far, my dc have started Algebra before 12. However, there is quite a difference between doing something like Jacob's or LoF and something like Gelfand's. While both involve those skills, Gelfand's takes a lot more in the thinking and theory end of it. However, there are some logic and thinking skills that, even in dc who can do Algebra at that age many not have yet, and those skills can develop over time.

 

I agree that you can be wildly brilliant and not have made the leap to those type of thinking skills. You can also have those thinking skills but not enough mathematical prowess to do Algebra yet (still working on fractions, for eg). There are lots of cool math things that you can do in the interim, though, to help prevent going around in circles, that don't involve Algebra. None of mine were through everything they needed to do Algebra when they hit that logic stage. Then there's the maturity aspect of it; I have one doing Russian math right now because she wasn't mature enough to sit still long enough for Algebra, but she's getting a good brain workout with some of that stuff because it's approached differently and there are some cool challenges.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Karin

[KAR120C]

Right. So far, my dc have started Algebra before 12. However, there is quite a difference between doing something like Jacob's or LoF and something like Gelfand's. While both involve those skills, Gelfand's takes a lot more in the thinking and theory end of it. However, there are some logic and thinking skills that, even in dc who can do Algebra at that age many not have yet, and those skills can develop over time.

 

I agree that you can be wildly brilliant and not have made the leap to those type of thinking skills. You can also have those thinking skills but not enough mathematical prowess to do Algebra yet (still working on fractions, for eg). There are lots of cool math things that you can do in the interim, though, to help prevent going around in circles, that don't involve Algebra. None of mine were through everything they needed to do Algebra when they hit that logic stage. Then there's the maturity aspect of it; I have one doing Russian math right now because she wasn't mature enough to sit still long enough for Algebra, but she's getting a good brain workout with some of that stuff because it's approached differently and there are some cool challenges.

In this particular case he wasn't "one of my math kids" until the 3rd year... :) I was meaning that more as an illustration that this Stage idea represents a change in thinking and not a smart/not smart thing. (And you'll see I've not yet reached the stage where I'm eloquent... LOL) If I'd been involved at the beginning we would have done gobs of problem solving (MathCounts, Math Olympiad, etc.) while we waited for everything to click into place.

 

And I agree that there's algebra and there's algebra. Gelfand is my personal favorite, but I would venture to say that there are a large number of people who are never ready for that - whether developmentally or by preference. He comes at it in a way that won't appeal to everyone, but it suits me down to the ground. But that's another case of all the different aspects of being "ready for algebra" -- when we started algebra, DS did use Gelfand, but not every day. He understood it perfectly, he could discuss it fine, he made the connections and enjoyed it, but he could burn out on it too -- it's challenging! And on the stylistic end it's not warm and fuzzy at all. And warm and fuzzy counted for something at that age. So NEM was our primary text and Gelfand was a supplement. We got about 2/3 of the way through it then. But now, 2 1/2 years later, I think he would find Gelfand much easier. I wouldn't say he's in a whole different stage, only that kids are always a moving target... The idea of the stage is a good one for making broad generalizations, but doesn't cover every bit.

[lionfamily1999]

Based on my experience, in my family, I deem them ready for the logic stage when they move beyond cramming in and regurgitating information to the actual act of synthesizing and connecting the information, with a beginner level skill of being able to form their own conclusions in basic essay form (a paragraph or two, a journal assignment, just something in a tangible form that I can evaluate). :)

Would you, then, start them in Logic once they could do that? Would you, also, move their other subjects ahead. Meaning, would you use TWTM's format for logic stage, making history waaaay more work :p , or would the other subjects be taught the same, with the addition of logic?

[AuntieM]

Would you, then, start them in Logic once they could do that? Would you, also, move their other subjects ahead. Meaning, would you use TWTM's format for logic stage, making history waaaay more work :p , or would the other subjects be taught the same, with the addition of logic?

 

Well, I am not sure I would make a sudden jump into much more difficult expectations just out of the blue. It may work fine at the start of a new school term, when they can be made to realize that with a higher grade designation comes a larger work load. But otherwise, they may balk. (Then again they may not, you know your kids best).

 

What I have done is to just dribble in additional assignments along the way, add more depth to conversations, give them a journal for free writing, etc. That's the "frog on a slow boil approach," before you know it all their work will be taking place on that Logic Stage level. But I wouldn't rush... once they do get there, I feel it sort of snowballs as they gain confidence, and they seem to nearly bring themselves along to the rhetoric stage! At least I can see how that has happened with my oldest and his peers. What I would add, if you haven't already, is something to teach critical thinking skills, perhaps formal logic if they are ready for it. Can't remember what age TWTM recommends Fallacy Detective and The Thinking Toolbox (both by Bluedorn), but we've enjoyed those, along with Critical Thinking Company materials and lateral thinking puzzles from various sources. I believe TWTM places Introductory Logic in 7th grade? Someone correct me here...

 

For my kids, they've each been ready for higher expectations in some subject areas before others. That went according to their individual strengths and personalities. I was willing to move along when they were ready. Adjunct subjects, like history and science, got bumped up when their language arts skills were sufficient to the task.

 

FWIW, I think of the rhetoric stage as when they can create written and oral compositions that are not only "elegant," as another has mentioned, but that also logically defend the position they hold and propose in their works.

 

So, a nutshell recap-

Grammar Stage - learn it - what - knowledge

Logic Stage - synthesize and connect the dots - how - understanding

Rhetoric Stage - eloquent defense - why - wisdom

 

Though I may misinterpret, this is the understanding that has guided our schooling years. And, though others may have different experiences, I think that the lines between stages are often wide and blurry. It would be nice to have been able to follow TWTM exactly as spelled out, year after year; for those who can do this, I imagine the results are great and the steps between stages are easier to see. However, our frequent-relocation lifestyle has forced us to be more.. flexible? (Maybe I am looking for a nice way to say "incomplete"!) I've not been able to precisely teach to each stage, but do use the characteristics of each to help me select curriculum, choose activities, and set realistic expectations for each student.

Edited October 29, 2009 by AuntieM

[lionfamily1999]

We use Mind Benders, but I'll look into the Fallacy Detective stuff and logic class. He does not have the writing endurance, iykwIm, to write long papers. We're working on paragraphs where his handwriting is consistent for now ;)

 

Thanks for all your help. It's hard to figure out what to do in general when they start to move ahead. For math, we started using remedial lessons for high schoolers that are available at our library. So, he's doing some algebra, but he doesn't know it. Reading and the rest, we just move with his level. When it comes time, though, to bump up everything... that's when I panic and want to revert back to typical old 3rd grade :p

[AuntieM]

want to revert back to typical old 3rd grade :p

 

LOL! I totally understand. I have just started K again for my youngest, it seems sooooo easy now! How could I have ever thought that first year was so hard? But a decade down the road.... ah, perspective ;)

[Storm Bay]

In this particular case he wasn't "one of my math kids" until the 3rd year... :) I was meaning that more as an illustration that this Stage idea represents a change in thinking and not a smart/not smart thing. (And you'll see I've not yet reached the stage where I'm eloquent... LOL) If I'd been involved at the beginning we would have done gobs of problem solving (MathCounts, Math Olympiad, etc.) while we waited for everything to click into place

 

Yes, I understood it, but wrote in haste.

 

And I agree that there's algebra and there's algebra. Gelfand is my personal favorite, but I would venture to say that there are a large number of people who are never ready for that - whether developmentally or by preference. He comes at it in a way that won't appeal to everyone, but it suits me down to the ground. But that's another case of all the different aspects of being "ready for algebra" -- when we started algebra, DS did use Gelfand, but not every day. He understood it perfectly, he could discuss it fine, he made the connections and enjoyed it, but he could burn out on it too -- it's challenging! And on the stylistic end it's not warm and fuzzy at all. And warm and fuzzy counted for something at that age.

Exactly. I'm not so sure that all three of my dc are going to do all of Gelfand's. My eldest is going to work on finishing it when she's 15, but I have no idea if my middle one will ever do much if it, although I'd like her to at least do the beginning. My eldest and I really enjoy the theoretical aspects of it, and that is definitely not everyone's cup of tea. I also agree about the warm and fuzzy counting for something at certain points, which is why we've added LoF to our Algebra collection (well, it certainly appears to be growing into a collection, although we're not going to use all of the books--at least not for each dc!).

 

So NEM was our primary text and Gelfand was a supplement. We got about 2/3 of the way through it then. But now, 2 1/2 years later, I think he would find Gelfand much easier. I wouldn't say he's in a whole different stage, only that kids are always a moving target... The idea of the stage is a good one for making broad generalizations, but doesn't cover every bit.

 

:iagree:

[Storm Bay]

So, a nutshell recap-

Grammar Stage - learn it - what - knowledge

Logic Stage - synthesize and connect the dots - how - understanding

Rhetoric Stage - eloquent defense - why - wisdom

.

 

I like this. I also think that there isn't necessarily a sudden leap from one to the other.