Hypothetical yet very interesting question...

[asta]

No, I'll never walk away from my faith. I don't care what irrefutable proof is provided.

 

I expect the "irrefutable proof" to come forth at just about anytime really. So while the question seems interesting and perhaps even entertaining to consider, I think Christians need to be honest with themselves. It's a very serious thing to consider really. What will the Church do if some "irrefutable proof" comes forth? Well, I know what I'll do. I'll go to the Bible and there I'll find the answer because it contains the Words of Eternal Life and it will carry me through. Because, my faith is based on the Bible alone and not what any man can ever give to me.

 

And yet, despite how many times people wish to assert the "guided by the holy spirit" line, the bible was written by men, it was copied, laboriously, often by hand, by men, who were taking dictation from men a solid 25+ years after the events had occurred.

 

Mistakes happen.

 

 

a

[asta]

If you are talking about Muslims converting to Christianity (or other faiths), that is called "apostasy" in Islam is the supreme sin a Muslim can commit.

 

Apostasy is a "death-penalty" offense. It may not always be enforced, but that's not always the case in areas where fundamentalists control the situation.

 

Even in relatively liberal places like Malaysia, a missionary puts a potential convert at great risk, to say nothing of the danger to the missionary, school or institutions abetting the conversion of Muslims. It makes one a magnet for attack, and even a terrorist target.

 

Be very careful. This is playing with fire.

 

Bill

 

Yep. And in the whole "who dies first" department, apostates go before infidels. (having committed the greater sin by knowing Allah and choosing to leave as opposed to never having known him at all)

 

 

a

[Kate in Arabia]

I have written and deleted so many posts it's not even funny. But I feel compelled to say something.

 

On the issue of apostates and infidels, I have never felt the texts have called for indiscriminate killing. I have never personally known anyone who has supported the killing of apostates and infidels. In my understanding of Islam (and that of many scholars) this is foreign, and my interpretation is just as valid as that of any other Muslim. So to ascribe these ideas to "Muslims" or Islam at large I find offensive, just as some would were one to choose one interpretion of Christianity and declare that to be "Christian teaching". Yes, I am sensitive on this subject because it goes against my personal beliefs, and I have been accosted and interrogated more than once by complete strangers on the street in the US, who are convinced I have some nefarious plot to assassinate those who disagree with me.

 

And regarding nefarious plots, I must say that I find it very disturbing, and not laudable at all, for people to enter countries under false pretenses, whether it be Christians seeking to "enlighten the natives" or Muslims seeking to make the US an Islamic Caliphate.

 

I'm clicking send before I can delete yet another post.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Kate in Arabia

[krystal70]

Odd as this may seem, this question/thread popped into my mind during church this morning and it occured to me that the only proof, one way or another, is going to only come with my death. Either God is waiting for me or I am just dead. At that point, there will be no chance for questions as all answers are before me.

[keptwoman]

And regarding nefarious plots, I must say that I find it very disturbing, and not laudable at all, for people to enter countries under false pretenses, whether it be Christians seeking to "enlighten the natives" or Muslims seeking to make the US an Islamic Caliphate.

I feel the same. There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of their god.

[shadowcat]

I feel the same. There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of their god.

 

I've been lurking on this thread off and on, but I had to chime in here because I completely agree.

 

In response to Sunshine (and I hope my answer doesn't offend):

I do believe that Jehovah exists, in that I think people created all the gods. I had the rather odd experience of talking to him once, and it seemed as real as any other spiritual experience I've had. I don't worship him. I don't particularly remember that bit of the Bible, but even if I were convinced that your god actually said that and didn't contradict it anyplace else, that doesn't mean I'd believe him.

 

But let's say, for the sake of the discussion, that I did believe him, and decided to become a Christiansimply out of fear of what would happen to me later--I'd never be able to respect myself again. I can't imagine that kind of convert is what Christians want, either, though not being one its probably not my place to say.

Edited October 18, 2009 by shadowcat

[Heather in Neverland]

And regarding nefarious plots, I must say that I find it very disturbing, and not laudable at all, for people to enter countries under false pretenses, whether it be Christians seeking to "enlighten the natives" or Muslims seeking to make the US an Islamic Caliphate.

 

.

 

I appreciate your perspective. I truly do. I don't know of any way to make it seem like it's NOT a nefarious plot except to say that ...you know how there are the 5 pillars of Islam, things that are imperative to Muslims? Spreading the Gospel is an imperative for Christians. We are called by Christ to "go into ALL the nations" and tell them the good news about Christ. People have died and still die trying to fulfill this imperative, whether it is telling a Muslim about Jesus when it is illegal or smuggling Bibles into places where they are outlawed or conducting secret church services for those who have no other way to go to church...we are compelled by the Scriptures and it is born out of love (or at least it should be...I know some make a mockery of it and I am sorry.)

 

I know this probably doesn't make it sound any more palatable to you but I just wanted you to know that it isn't a nefarious plot. :grouphug:

[Robin Hood]

Using words is not my gift and I make big jumps mentally before words come out of my mouth, so please, bear with me.

 

[quote name='Heather in NC;1260969

- Jesus Christ is NOT the son of God

 

- Mohammed was insane and had no part of the Quran

 

I'd like to see you rework this question for me' date=' because the claims in the Bible, New and Old Testament, point to the need for a redeemer beginning in Genesis and prophesy of One who will be throughout. He even showed up a few times before He got here. (omniscient? omnipresent? ) If it is not Jesus, then that puts Him in the insane department and it must be somebody else and we missed it or the One is still yet to come. Or are you saying the Bible is useless literature, or a fun fairy tale maybe. If Jesus is not who He says he is, then to imitate Him and live by the Great Commandment is a joke. I cannot separate Jesus from the Bible.

 

Then definitely do not take any graduate-level apologetics courses because you will deal with questions like this all day.

 

Here is another question posed during the series: Do you believe that God is Omnipresent and Omniscient?

 

I think it is a VERY relevant question.

 

Are you saying that people who do not take graduate level apologetics courses are unable to consider and ponder the great questions?

[stripe]

In contrast, in the US we try on religions for size, discard them, try a new one, as quickly as we change our underwear. We don't lose everything if we try something new. Sure, people might think you are a little weird but that's about it. There isn't much real sacrifice involved and the conversion itself is easy (repeat these words after me...).

Maybe, but it depends.

 

If you've known someone who converts to a very different religion, or who throws themselves into that religion, I would not agree.

 

For example, I know a lady who converted to Judaism before her marriage to a non-religious Jewish man, and she was pushing him to participate in religious activities. I think she felt that she had sacrificed something in order to gain something else, and she wanted to actually feel that she had gained something (e.g. community, celebrations, public / shared worship, etc).

 

Those who change to a religion that is not considered "cool," or a level of practice that is not "cool" because it's too much (whether it's becoming a Jehovah's Witness and carrying around tracts, or going from a partygirl to a nun, or starting to keep kosher, or going from a frat boy to a teetotaling, church / mosque attending man) --well, it is NOT always a breeze for them, where people think that's fine, another flavor of ice cream, the more diversity the better. Even in one's own family -- where the kids become noticeably more or less religious than the parents, there can be tension.

 

Once a college classmate was disturbed by a (gay) classmate who was heavily involved in his church and feed the homeless type activities, who had invited us to his church's weekly dinner, and she said that she thought we were too old for being involved that type of thing (religious activities). ?! Religion is only for kids who are forced into it?

 

I also think that if one considers the effect that trying to change one's ethnicity, what that would be like (seeing it from the American point of view), that may be how best to visualize it in most other countries where multiple ethnic groups and/or religions coexist. Everyone can coexist because they are so secure in their identity as an X, so it is quite jarring to have someone seem to become someone else, reject their family tradition, and put someone else first.

 

It is an interesting question, the whole "lying to advance one's own personal agenda or personal convenience." I, for example, cannot stand those who enter into green card marriages.

Edited October 18, 2009 by stripe

[Earth Angel_79]

I know that it wouldn't be possible to refute Christ, for one. God would have to stop speaking to me like He does and doing miracles in my life and the lives of others around me. I'd be more likely to doubt the "proof" than to doubt Christ. He is who He is, and ultimately it would be some fallible human who came up with the proof, so...

 

This goes along with a question I wanted to ask of those who would give up their faith if given "irrefutable proof". Of course, Christians base their beliefs on the Bible and the tenets of Christianity as Heather put forth earlier. Ultimately, this all springs out of what is written in the Bible....so really, the only question would be if someone proves the Bible is a hoax (hmmmmm.....that has already been "done" according to some over and over). But what about other aspects of your faith...what about God's faithfulness, His answering of prayers, etc. Our relationship with God is not just reading the Bible...it has other aspects. Would you just chalk those up to some sort of spiritual hooboo that is spooky and coincidental?

Our conversion to Christianity involves more than just an understanding of the Gospels -- it is a dramatic changing of the heart. You are BORN AGAIN...seeing life with new eyes, a changed soul. This is why it confuses me to read that so many can say that if offered some type of "irrefutable proof" they would be shopping around. That proof would have to apply only to what your mind could understand. I can relate to what the students in your class of other religions said more easily, because my faith isn't "all in my head" understandable thing. It is my entire essence, my relationship with God completes me....makes me whole.

Gosh...I hope I'm making sense. This thread is fascinating and I have never had the opportunity to express some of my thoughts on this (or maybe I've avoided it over the years, so thank you for giving me a place to sort it out and gain some strength)...and the contributors here (whether I agree with them or not) are just excellent at making their views understandable. :001_smile:

[Earth Angel_79]

 

Are you saying that people who do not take graduate level apologetics courses are unable to consider and ponder the great questions?

 

I don't think she was insinuating that...:grouphug:

[Firefly]

Hmmm, I guess I don't really have anything to "disprove"... no holy book that I follow, no deity that I "worship", though I do believe in the divine, whatever a person chooses to call it (I am pagan, FTR). So for me I guess the converse would be, "what if you had irrefutable proof that no divine source existed?" If presented with such proof I would have to believe it were true. But I still would find tremendous joy in life and live happily.

[Lovedtodeath]

And yet, despite how many times people wish to assert the "guided by the holy spirit" line, the bible was written by men, it was copied, laboriously, often by hand, by men, who were taking dictation from men a solid 25+ years after the events had occurred.

 

Have you actually researched this? For one thing, if God wanted the Bible written he could guide the transcribing, copying, etc. to keep it accurate. For another, when older scrolls or codexes are found than what was previously available, scholars are astonished at the accuracy that the copies and translations have maintained. In addition to this, there have been numerous times and places in history that have attempted to destroy the Bible, yet it has still made it through all of that, in its entirety, and is now available to us. It is astounding to say the least.

[KarenNC]

It's a one-man mission :D

 

No, Bill, I'm right there with you and have been for years:).

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Have you actually researched this? For one thing, if God wanted the Bible written he could guide the transcribing, copying, etc. to keep it accurate. For another, when older scrolls or codexes are found than what was previously available, scholars are astonished at the accuracy that the copies and translations have maintained. In addition to this, there have been numerous times and places in history that have attempted to destroy the Bible, yet it has still made it through all of that, in its entirety, and is now available to us. It is astounding to say the least.

 

Well, if god wanted the Bible written s/he could have also made it magically appear.

 

And there are different versions of the Bible, based on ancient scrolls that some Christians accept and others don't (for instance, Protestants don't accept the Catholic Bible?) So, I think the accuracy of the text is also something that Christians take on faith. There is also much debate amongst Christians themselves (as evidenced on these boards) regarding which parts of the Bible are to be interpreted literally. Of course, this is a rabbit trail from the original question, which I find fascinating.

[KarenNC]

Well, I basically did--not "denounce" so much as realize that I could no longer pretend to go along with something that I knew did not mesh with my experience of spiritual reality. I tried for decades to find some way to stay in the (very) Protestant Christian religion and culture in which I was raised, but in the end could no long feel honest about pretending that I believed monotheism was an accurate description of the spiritual reality I had been experiencing all my life.

 

As a polytheist, I have no problem with the concept that there might be other beings in the class "God" with whom I do not have a worship relationship but others do. So, the Christian God/Jesus may well exist, but my experiences have clearly shown me that He/They is/are not the only God and He/They is/are not the one/ones who speak to me.

[Spy Car]

No, Bill, I'm right there with you and have been for years:).

 

I'm for an alliance :001_smile:

 

Bill

[Robin Hood]

Are you saying that people who do not take graduate level apologetics courses are unable to consider and ponder the great questions?

 

I don't think she was insinuating that...:grouphug:

 

Not to worry. I did take it personally because I am not a school oriented person, (I almost flunked high school and never went to college), but it did not hurt my feelings. I am on the other side of the question now, and in hindsight, think that it's like asking if the sky is blue. That it is being asked makes it relevant, and in more thinking, even John the Baptist asked the question of Jesus. But that question implied so much more to me that it seemed too simplistic. It's a good place to start, though.

 

My own questioning of who Jesus is, is related to and not separated from the Bible. I was considering Heather's question in relation to my first doubts of the Bible 16 years ago when I discovered that some ancient writings mirrored those of Moses and I wondered who influenced who. I delved into finding out, praying all along the way, dating doubt, but staying awfully close to faith at the same time, because if one bit of the Bible isn't true, none of it is. I put God to the test. If the Bible stands true, then there must be a savior, if not Jesus, it's someone else. Some other person must be God's son. It's all related and I don't think the question can be asked without assuming that there is a son of God because the Bible assumes it.

 

Is Heather asking if there is such thing as a son of God or does she mean that there is a son and is or is not Jesus the man?

 

 

ETA ~ I referred back to Heather's original Question and realize I latched onto only one part of it. Does that change things?

Edited October 18, 2009 by Robin Hood

[Spy Car]

I have written and deleted so many posts it's not even funny. But I feel compelled to say something.

 

On the issue of apostates and infidels, I have never felt the texts have called for indiscriminate killing. I have never personally known anyone who has supported the killing of apostates and infidels. In my understanding of Islam (and that of many scholars) this is foreign, and my interpretation is just as valid as that of any other Muslim. So to ascribe these ideas to "Muslims" or Islam at large I find offensive, just as some would were one to choose one interpretion of Christianity and declare that to be "Christian teaching". Yes, I am sensitive on this subject because it goes against my personal beliefs, and I have been accosted and interrogated more than once by complete strangers on the street in the US, who are convinced I have some nefarious plot to assassinate those who disagree with me.

 

Kate, I realize after re-reading my post, that your points are very well taken.

 

In my haste, and out of fear for the safety of Heather and her family (which remains), I spoke overly broadly. "Apostasy" is a very grave sin, but most Muslims (from my best understanding) would leave the judging of individuals and their punishment to God. I sincerely regret my post implied other-wise.

 

It never-the-less remains a reality that there are people who call themselves "Muslims" who would take it upon themselves to meet-out punishments in God's name, and thereby usurp God's prerogative. And their numbers, unfortunately, are not inconsiderable.

 

You might say these people are twisting Islam into an unrecognizable ideology that violates the very premises of Islam, and I would agree.

 

I did not mean to leave an impression that Muslims of good-will are bent on killing "Apostates" or missionaries. That would not be true. Still an average Muslim, I suspect, would view the "conversion" of a family member as a very serious eventuality.

 

It would also be quite fool-heartily to underestimate the danger posed from the "rogue" elements who have proven themselves attached to violence.

 

A school that seems like a front for the conversion of Muslim children takes a very grave risk of becoming a target for so-called "jihadist" groups, or even retribution from a lone radicalized person or family.

 

I don't want to inflame bigotry, not a bit. But Heather's post makes me fear-full. If this school is a "missionary center" it is (to my mind) a well-grounded fear.

 

I'm sorry to tread in these waters at all. But I would feel "unethical" in the extreme if I remained silent and something tragic happened.

 

People may choose to be martyrs (or potential martyrs) for their faith, and call that a high duty. One just better have their eyes full open to the dangers involved.

 

Again my apologies for being careless in my earlier post. I had no intention of causing offense, or promulgating wrong thoughts about Islam, and I'm afraid I did both. I am sorry. I should have been much more careful.

 

 

And regarding nefarious plots, I must say that I find it very disturbing, and not laudable at all, for people to enter countries under false pretenses, whether it be Christians seeking to "enlighten the natives" or Muslims seeking to make the US an Islamic Caliphate.

 

I agree.

 

Peace to you,

 

Bill

Edited October 18, 2009 by Spy Car

[asta]

(re: Robin) Well, that, and the fact that it really wasn't Heather's question, it was her professor's. She thought it was interesting and thought provoking, so she shared it.

 

I think sometimes on these boards we tend to personalize ideas. eg: posters toss out concepts or "what do y'all think about..." questions - honestly looking to see what a community of people *think* about things - not unlike what one would do in a seminar style class - and instead, some of the replies end up being written to or at the poster, rather then in response to the idea.

 

I found the OT to be a great example of what SWB is trying to get across in her books - how to teach ourselves, and our kids, to think through what we read, what we believe, etc.

 

 

a

[PineFarmMom]

Our conversion to Christianity involves more than just an understanding of the Gospels -- it is a dramatic changing of the heart. You are BORN AGAIN...seeing life with new eyes, a changed soul. This is why it confuses me to read that so many can say that if offered some type of "irrefutable proof" they would be shopping around. :001_smile:

 

This is precisely why those who aren't believers can't possibly have any understanding of the workings of the Holy Spirit and why believers believe the way that we do. If it's not experienced then it's not experienced. It's an area they have no idea of. It's a fruitless argument, most times. If I'm arguing to change the heart of the person who doesn't believe, I need to make sure I'm doing God's business and not my own push to make them agree with me. Ultimately, He is the one who has to lead people to the truth. My words just won't do it.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Texas T

[Marylou]

So if someone came and said to me "this is the truth, here's the proof" I'd probably say "well how about that, blow me down, someone did figure it out after all"

 

 

 

Someone did come, but he was crucified for calling himself "The Truth".

[Marylou]

Heather, You might be interested in Tearing Down Strongholds and Defending the Truth by R.C. Sproul Jr.

[funschooler5]

Well, lovedtodeath's post just below yours illustrates part of the point I am going to try to make here.

 

Even if your god existed, that still would not follow that I would necessarily worship it. Exactly what of your god is true then? Because even just here on these boards of relatively few representations of persons who say they believe in this god, there are vastly differing interpretations on what the nature of this god actually is. Is the fear-mongering god paradigm, the loving god paradigm, the somewhere-in-between god paradigm? Is it the god of the Jews, the Muslims, the christians? And which version of those gods is it?

 

It would depend entirely on what the "irrefutable proof" reveals of said god as to whether I would decide to worship it or not.

 

However, like I said earlier... this is probably a separate question than Heather intended, so I won't derail it any further.

 

I hope no one minds further derailment :001_smile:. I think this thread and its tangents are facinating.

 

I agree with Audrey here. As an unbeliever, if someone were to prove the existance of God, whether or not I would worship Him would completely depend on what the proof was. To me, I see a big difference between the God that is depicted in the Bible and the kind, loving God that my Christian friends talk about. If the Bible were to be found completely, literally true, I don't think I'd be able to worship that God wholeheartedly. I'd probably give it a try out of fear, but I doubt it would "stick" because it wouldn't be very sincere. Now, if the kind, loving God that I hear about was proved to exist, I might be able to worship Him completely.

 

Of course (to start another tangent), how would God feel about people who chose not to believe in Him out of faith, but only started to worship Him because we found proof?

[Tea Time]

I feel the same. There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of their god.

 

Can we stop all evil in the world by ending belief in god/God? Because there are some vocal folks out there these days that seem to think so. They are greatly misguided.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of science.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of politics.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of the environment.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of greed.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of power.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of the Devil/demons.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of laziness.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of marketing and sales.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of EDUCATION.

 

Perhaps the worst of all are done in the name of your own good.

[Lovedtodeath]

Can we stop all evil in the world by ending belief in god/God? Because there are some vocal folks out there these days that seem to think so. They are greatly misguided.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of science.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of politics.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of the environment.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of greed.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of power.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of the Devil/demons.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of laziness.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of marketing and sales.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of EDUCATION.

 

Perhaps the worst of all are done in the name of your own good.

:thumbup:[:iagree::iagree::iagree::thumbup1:

 

In addition, there are several scriptures that indicate that many people are not practicing their religion correctly. What if only one religion were the right one? We would be getting rid of it in our efforts to get rid of all of the others.

[Tea Time]

In addition, there are several scriptures that indicate that many people are not practicing their religion correctly. What if only one religion were the right one? We would be getting rid of it in our efforts to get rid of all of the others.

 

Or even if they practiced it a wee bit better! I recall when I was a little kid, in my childish thoughts, I used to wonder why it was that people could not just try to obey the "biggie" commandments. I knew, in my childish way, that even if every single person obeyed the "do not kill" commandment for a single day, then we would have NO MURDERS for one day. I could not figure out how people could fail to do that when it was so obvious! I guess I still childishly wonder that now. :(

[Heather in Neverland]

Are you saying that people who do not take graduate level apologetics courses are unable to consider and ponder the great questions?

 

Of course not. I was replying to the poster who essentially said the entire question was pointless and a waste of time and not worth even discussing. My point is that my class is full of what if questions...that is essentially what apologetics tries to do...answer the what if questions for skeptics.

[Heather in Neverland]

A school that seems like a front for the conversion of Muslim children takes a very grave risk of becoming a target for so-called "jihadist" groups, or even retribution from a lone radicalized person or family.

 

I don't want to inflame bigotry, not a bit. But Heather's post makes me fear-full. If this school is a "missionary center" it is (to my mind) a well-grounded fear.

Oh my goodness. I am sorry I wasn't more clear. The school I work for is a registered CHRISTIAN school. Parents have to sign a document stating that they are aware that we teach Christian beliefs. This school has been here for 30 years and operates completely on the up and up.

 

I do, however, come into contact with MANY missionaries that are here from missionary organizations...missionaries who have to keep that fact about themselves hidden. I meet them at the Christian church we all go to (which is also on the up and up). They DO have to keep their mission somewhat secretive as they ARE allowed to witness to Buddhists and Hindus of which there are many in Penang. But some also witness to Muslims which is illegal.

 

We only have a very small percentage of students at our school who are Muslim and they attend primarily to get an American education and learn English as they have plans to attend university in the states.

 

I'm sorry if my lack of details caused you any alarm. :grouphug:

 

 

Bill

.

[Elaine]

 

 

You're confusing religion with Truth. You're confusing religion with God. They are not the same thing. Truth is a constant. Religion changes throughout time to accomodate the cultural group currently practicing the religion; therefore, religion is not a constant and cannot be truth.

 

HTH-

Mandy

 

Very well said.

[Spy Car]

Oh my goodness. I am sorry I wasn't more clear. The school I work for is a registered CHRISTIAN school. Parents have to sign a document stating that they are aware that we teach Christian beliefs. This school has been here for 30 years and operates completely on the up and up.

 

I do, however, come into contact with MANY missionaries that are here from missionary organizations...missionaries who have to keep that fact about themselves hidden. I meet them at the Christian church we all go to (which is also on the up and up). They DO have to keep their mission somewhat secretive as they ARE allowed to witness to Buddhists and Hindus of which there are many in Penang. But some also witness to Muslims which is illegal.

 

We only have a very small percentage of students at our school who are Muslim and they attend primarily to get an American education and learn English as they have plans to attend university in the states.

 

I'm sorry if my lack of details caused you any alarm.

 

If these missionaries who are illegally proselytizing Muslim children (under Malaysian law) are somehow associated with your school, if their children attend your school, they worship at a common church, or they are just a part of the local Christian "community" there, then their activities put you, your family, the students, faculty, and fellow administrators at grave risk.

 

You really need to understand how serious a situation this could be.

 

I hope the Church leadership and the school have really though this through.

 

Bill

[keptwoman]

Someone did come, but he was crucified for calling himself "The Truth".

Well you see that's your paradigm of truth, it's not mine. Herein lies the argument. Please don't try to convince me, I grew up in a Christian home, been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Edited October 19, 2009 by keptwoman

[coopers4him]

Can we stop all evil in the world by ending belief in god/God? Because there are some vocal folks out there these days that seem to think so. They are greatly misguided.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of science.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of politics.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of the environment.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of greed.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of power.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of the Devil/demons.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of laziness.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of marketing and sales.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of EDUCATION.

 

Perhaps the worst of all are done in the name of your own good.

 

:iagree:

 

Well said.

[Lovedtodeath]

Well you see that's your paradigm of truth, it's not mine. Herein lies the argument. Please don't try to convince me, I grew up in a Christian home, been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

You don't believe that someone called himself the Truth and was crucified for it?

 

Or you don't believe that he was what he said he was?

 

If it was the second, then the quote that you are replying to is still historically accurate.

 

Do you think your tone is just a little much?

[PineFarmMom]

Can we stop all evil in the world by ending belief in god/God? Because there are some vocal folks out there these days that seem to think so. They are greatly misguided.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of science.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of politics.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of the environment.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of greed.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of power.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of the Devil/demons.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of laziness.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of marketing and sales.

 

There are a lot of interesting and disturbing things done by people in the name of EDUCATION.

 

Perhaps the worst of all are done in the name of your own good.

 

That is one of the best, most dead-on posts I've read!! :D:D:D

[sunshine]

I've been lurking on this thread off and on, but I had to chime in here because I completely agree.

 

In response to Sunshine (and I hope my answer doesn't offend):

I do believe that Jehovah exists, in that I think people created all the gods. I had the rather odd experience of talking to him once, and it seemed as real as any other spiritual experience I've had. I don't worship him. I don't particularly remember that bit of the Bible, but even if I were convinced that your god actually said that and didn't contradict it anyplace else, that doesn't mean I'd believe him.

 

But let's say, for the sake of the discussion, that I did believe him, and decided to become a Christiansimply out of fear of what would happen to me later--I'd never be able to respect myself again. I can't imagine that kind of convert is what Christians want, either, though not being one its probably not my place to say.

 

 

No offense taken at all. I posed this question because I was curious to see what the answers would be. I know that the one True God did not and will not have His people come to him through fear. He doesn't have to. But knowing that some people have the misconception that Christians use the fear of hell to convert and don't get me wrong I have sat under that kind of preaching before and never went back. I should have come back to the forum sooner as it may look as though I am of that persuasion.

 

I do however believe every word of the Bible. Literally. I know that when it is a parable it is stated that it is a parable. We don't get to choose which ones we think are parables. Just as we don't get to choose what is true and what is not. It is not our book, it is God's and He makes the rules. The clay does not say to the potter, make me thus. Isaiah 29:16. So, as it does say that there is a literal hell, with a lake of fire, a place of complete darkness and a gap that cannot be crossed, I believe it utterly. God chooses who He will (Romans 9:21) and I am completely humbled and in awe of His mercy.

 

I find it odd that you would say you spoke to Jehovah. What did He say? If you had truly spoke to Him, and not a demon masquerading as Him, I don't think you would be as ambivalent toward Him as you seem. Of course I see that through the eyes of a believer and do not understand the heart or mind of an unbeliever. It is not meant to offend and you have not offended me at all. I hope I haven't offended you.

[Lovedtodeath]

No offense taken at all. I posed this question because I was curious to see what the answers would be. I know that the one True God did not and will not have His people come to him through fear. He doesn't have to. But knowing that some people have the misconception that Christians use the fear of hell to convert and don't get me wrong I have sat under that kind of preaching before and never went back. I should have come back to the forum sooner as it may look as though I am of that persuasion.

I am glad you cleared that up.

 

I definitely believe in the Bible as the literal truth. We certainly have that in common.

 

The Jerusalem Bible has a footnote marking The Rich Man and Lazarus as a parable. If it is literal then: Would one drop of water make it to the rich man, or would it be evaporated? If it would make it there, would it actually relieve some of his suffering? Could a man in the fiery depths of hades really see and talk to someone in heaven?

 

Some notable scriptures on the subject of hell:

Job 14:13; Job wished to be concealed in Hades as relief for his suffering.

Revelation 20:13,14 People are resurrected from hades.

Ezekial 18:4, Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 The dead are not concious.

Romans 6:7, 23 Death is the payment for sin, nothing more.

[sunshine]

I hope no one minds further derailment :001_smile:. I think this thread and its tangents are facinating.

 

Of course (to start another tangent), how would God feel about people who chose not to believe in Him out of faith, but only started to worship Him because we found proof?

 

Hmmm, great question. I think that the Bible states that when God is revealed to all at the final judgment, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Philippians 2:10-12. Although this states that all will acknowledge that God is God of the Universe and beyond, it does also state that some peoples hearts will not turn toward God. They will continue to curse Him as they are thrown into an eternity without Him. So, no I don't think that people will choose to worship God when they see proof. It was clear to the enemies of Israel in the days of the prophets that there was a living God that protected Israel and yet they did not worship Him. They continued to worship their idols and mythological gods. Even after seeing miraculous things. God does not need us, we need Him.

[Lovedtodeath]

Hmmm, great question. I think that the Bible states that when God is revealed to all at the final judgment, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Philippians 2:10-12.

I was thinking the same thing. The "Great Day of Jehovah" is when all will know, and some of us may not die before then.

 

I have always wondered... those that believe all good people go to heaven upon death... what is the judgement day for then, and what changes afterwards?

[sunshine]

I am glad you cleared that up.

 

I definitely believe in the Bible as the literal truth. We certainly have that in common.

 

The Jerusalem Bible has a footnote marking The Rich Man and Lazarus as a parable. If it is literal then: Would one drop of water make it to the rich man, or would it be evaporated? If it would make it there, would it actually relieve some of his suffering? Could a man in the fiery depths of hades really see and talk to someone in heaven?

 

Some notable scriptures on the subject of hell:

Job 14:13; Job wished to be concealed in Hades as relief for his suffering.

Revelation 20:13,14 People are resurrected from hades.

Ezekial 18:4, Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 The dead are not concious.

Romans 6:7, 23 Death is the payment for sin, nothing more.

 

I am so glad I cleared that up too!! I went back and read my late night post (which most of mine are), and realized that it sounded like I was the Fire and Brimstone Gal!:D

 

The hell thing: I believe in a literal hell because it is so aptly described in the Bible. That our bodies die is a result of sin. Death is described as a first and second death. So they are both a form of death. Hell was made for the fallen angels and Satan. But Revelation 20:15 states that anyone whose name was not found in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. After the great white throne judgment.

 

I remember when Saul sought the sorceress to call back Samuel and he got on to Saul for disturbing his rest. This seemed to point to consciousness in death. Also at the transfiguration of Christ, Elijah and Moses were present.

The passage in Ecclesiastes is speaking of the dead who were not in Paradise, which was where the covered Jews were sent until Christ released them when He died. They would be in a state of unconsciousness until the Great White Throne judgment where the unrighteous will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Whew. that took some referencing and reading. But remember, I am no scholar. And I am trudging through all of this complexity. I kinda just want to wear a shirt that says "He said it, I believe it and that's that":D

 

but my curiosity and questioning nature gets the best of me each time!:tongue_smilie:

[sunshine]

I was thinking the same thing. The "Great Day of Jehovah" is when all will know, and some of us may not die before then.

 

I have always wondered... those that believe all good people go to heaven upon death... what is the judgement day for then, and what changes afterwards?

 

 

they probably don't believe in Judgment Day. It wouldn't line up with that way of thinking. Sometimes it kills me to see such sweet people reject Christ, but then I have to remember that I just see them through a dark mirror. God sees the heart.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

The hell thing: I believe in a literal hell because it is so aptly described in the Bible. That our bodies die is a result of sin. Death is described as a first and second death. So they are both a form of death. Hell was made for the fallen angels and Satan. But Revelation 20:15 states that anyone whose name was not found in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. After the great white throne judgment.

It also says that hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire, and that the Lake of Fire means the second death. I understand that to mean a death from which there is no hope of resurrection.

[sunshine]

It also says that hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire, and that the Lake of Fire means the second death. I understand that to mean a death from which there is no hope of resurrection.

 

Yes and death is thrown into the lake of fire too. So no more death.

[shadowcat]

I find it odd that you would say you spoke to Jehovah. What did He say? If you had truly spoke to Him, and not a demon masquerading as Him, I don't think you would be as ambivalent toward Him as you seem. Of course I see that through the eyes of a believer and do not understand the heart or mind of an unbeliever. It is not meant to offend and you have not offended me at all. I hope I haven't offended you.

 

No offense taken, not even close.

 

No, I never said Jehovah talked back, and I hope I didn't give the impression of thinking I'm Little Miss Spiritually Enlightened. I'm a polytheist, so I have no reason to think your god isn't as real or unreal as any other, and it doesn't change my beliefs at all. I have my own set of morals and beliefs. Christianity doesn't match them, so its not for me.

 

The flip side of the OP's fascinating question is, if there were absolute proof that religion X was correct, would you join it? If I had proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'd burn in hell for eternity unless I became a Christian, I'd become a Christian. But I'd be a really lousy one. I'd probably have to become a Catholic so I could repent at the last minute.

 

I can't really turn that question around very well to my own path, because we don't have anything like hell. But would you become a Muslim if you had some similar proof?

[HRAAB]

But I'd be a really lousy one. I'd probably have to become a Catholic so I could repent at the last minute.

 

 

Huh? Every day should be lived as though it 'were your last minute'. Even Catholics.

 

Janet

[unsinkable]

No offense taken, not even close.

 

No, I never said Jehovah talked back, and I hope I didn't give the impression of thinking I'm Little Miss Spiritually Enlightened. I'm a polytheist, so I have no reason to think your god isn't as real or unreal as any other, and it doesn't change my beliefs at all. I have my own set of morals and beliefs. Christianity doesn't match them, so its not for me.

 

The flip side of the OP's fascinating question is, if there were absolute proof that religion X was correct, would you join it? If I had proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'd burn in hell for eternity unless I became a Christian, I'd become a Christian. But I'd be a really lousy one. I'd probably have to become a Catholic so I could repent at the last minute.

 

I can't really turn that question around very well to my own path, because we don't have anything like hell. But would you become a Muslim if you had some similar proof?

 

Catholics actually come under fire with other Christians because they believe "good works" are part of salvation.

 

God knows our hearts. Planning to repent at the last minute is something He'd know. WHat He'd do about it, I don't know.

[Lovedtodeath]

Planning to repent at the last minute would likely not be repentance in the heart at all, and be treated thusly.

[unsinkable]

Planning to repent at the last minute would likely not be repentance in the heart at all, and be treated thusly.

 

But since you're not God...;)

[Earth Angel_79]

I kinda just want to wear a shirt that says "He said it, I believe it and that's that":D

 

but my curiosity and questioning nature gets the best of me each time!:tongue_smilie:

 

Amen! and :iagree: Again, thank God for His infinite patience in us. I always get so aggravated by how many times I must tell my children to put their dishes in the sink, pick up dirty clothes, etc and I have to remind myself that God must feel the same thing times a billion (really more) with His children.

[HRAAB]

Planning to repent at the last minute would likely not be repentance in the heart at all, and be treated thusly.

 

Well, I'm certainly not God and don't know God's mind, but I tend to :iagree:. I personally find it very presumptuous to assume we're going to have the opportunity at the very last minute - think car accident or something similar. Of course, since I've never died, I don't know what happens at that very moment. Big sigh yet again.

 

Janet