S/O of S/O I've noticed that when adults correct behavior in other kids

[lionfamily1999]

My point is that when I know up front that I'm going to be in that sort of situation, I let them know. Or if it comes up unexpectedly (the unexpected unburdening of the soul), I let them know gently at that time. I do not think it is fair to make them guess at whether they will be welcomed by adults. And I don't think it is fair to expect that they will get subtle cues and to be annoyed if they don't. There are polite ways to let them know that while they aren't welcome right now, it is a special situation that doesn't mean that they should never interact with adults.

Sure. I dare say the rudeness was assumed (not by you).

[Snickerdoodle]

My point is that when I know up front that I'm going to be in that sort of situation, I let them know. Or if it comes up unexpectedly (the unexpected unburdening of the soul), I let them know gently at that time. I do not think it is fair to make them guess at whether they will be welcomed by adults. And I don't think it is fair to expect that they will get subtle cues and to be annoyed if they don't. There are polite ways to let them know that while they aren't welcome right now, it is a special situation that doesn't mean that they should never interact with adults.

 

Exactly.

 

What I meant by subtle cues Jean, is imagine if you and I were sitting on a bench talking and your child came and started prattling away about her stuffed animal collection. After a few minutes you notice that I am smiling and saying, "How lovely!" but not really trying to know more about the minutiae of said collection.

 

Wouldn't you then say something to your child along the lines of, "Thanks for sharing dear. Run along and play"?

 

This is what I was getting at. I have been in situations where the parent does not intervene and let their child drone on and on. Instead they think that everything that comes out of their mouth is profoundly interesting and wonderful.

[EmilyK]

If a child wants to talk to you why would you not want to talk to them?? Why would you not want to model good behavior? If there are children in the vicinity what is it that you would be saying or doing that is so important that you couldn't take the time to be courteous? After all, "a person's a person, no matter how small." - Horton the Elephant

 

I am not trying to be snotty, I would truly like to understand this. My ds7 is very outgoing and makes friends everywhere we go. Occasionally an adult refuses to engage in conversation and ds asks why. I usually tell him the person may be shy, having a bad day or is just plain rude depending on the impression I got. Overwhelmingly the response is that people will carry on a conversation with him and tell me how smart he is. Of course I can't take credit for that, he was born that way.

 

I guess this is the issue I would really like guidance on, and maybe the answer is "people are different". I have a mature, well-behaved, almost 12 year old who has lots of friends his age. (And I'm not talking about a park day where it has a "moms take a break" feel.) But if we're in a mixed age social setting where he doesn't have a particular friend -- often with relatives, could be with friends -- he might want to join a conversation that my husband or I are having with someone, just as I might walk up and join a conversation my husband is having. (Obviously I don't do that when someone is talking in hushed tones or it is otherwise clearly private, but all the time I might join a conversation that he (or others) are having when it seems otherwise appropriate.) So it is hard to explain to my son why he isn't necessarily welcome. The good news is that no one involved seems irritated, and my husband says it is all in my mind to worry. We never bring our kids to an adult only social occasion, and my husband feels if it is all ages (especially family) that people should be comfortable with my son's presence. But reading comments here make me cringe all over again. I'm just not sure how to tell whether people care, and how to "clear" his presence once he's already there.

[Nestof3]

Wow! What you just described sounds so different than what the OP started with. It doesn't sound like you disagreed, but it does sound like you have misunderstood her.

 

Sorry to say, but I disagree.

 

When I am at the library, I have occasionally corrected the behavior of someone else's child. Perhaps my personality does come to bear, but I cannot abide with having someone's completely uncontrolled child racing through the library, shouting at the top of their little lungs, swinging around the ends of bookshelves dumping their contents onto the floor, all the while Mother stands idly by and dispassionately drones, "Sweetie, don't do that...", which has absolutely no effect on little Sweetie at all.

 

The library belongs to all of us and I will not have our shared space and property treated so poorly. So after several minutes of watching Mother not take control, I stepped out into Sweetie's path and firmly said, "Excuse me, but this is not how we act in a library. No running, no shouting, and no knocking books on the floor. The children's section is over here and you will find many great books there. Please try to be more respectful of the library from now on." After the lady and Sweetie checked out in a huff, I got a standing ovation from the librarians and the other patrons.

 

Just because I could not tolerate that child's behavior does not mean that the only reason I corrected him was because we have different personalities. He was clearly in dire need of correction. His mother wouldn't, the librarians aren't allowed, the other patrons were afraid.

 

I, on the other hand, often consider myself "mommy to many" if their parents aren't available. If a child gets hurt and needs a bandaid, I am quick to provide one. If a child needs help reaching something or holding a door open to get to where they need to be, again I am quick to help them. When I am in a crowd and see a child that seems lost, I waste no time in asking if they need help. So IMO, it is just natural that if a child needs corrected, I will step up to that task also. No, I don't respond to every little infraction, but I will address those that involve significant health and safety issues or the destruction of property that also belongs to me or the community at large.

[EmilyK]

When I was growing up, we learned how to be involved in discussions of religion, philosophy, the arts etc. by being included in adult conversations. Of course, only those who could legitimately add to those conversations were really welcome. To me, this would include "young adults" or teenagers. If we were discussing something and someone added a non sequitor, it would have been a signal that that child was not old enough to join in that particular conversation. The parent would have gently redirected the child and perhaps asked him to listen only or to go play with the other children. If you come to my house, this is the way it is at our dinner table or around the coffee table in our living room. Children are encouraged to take part in the "grand conversation" or at least to learn from it. I actually am more dismayed at parents who bring their kids and then dismiss them as if my kids are then supposed to entertain them exclusively without being able to learn from the adults.

 

Now if it is a co-op situation or a church fellowship were people are standing around in groups talking, there is a certain etiquette. If you notice two people deep in discussion in a corner, even adults should not barge in (though I've known those who do). If a child or an adult came up to me with a genuine need, I might answer them quickly or direct them to someone who could help them. If a child or an adult came up to me just to chat when we were already having a serious discussion, I would gently tell them that now was not a good time.

 

There is also a certain etiquette if groups are standing around talking about nothing in particular. In that case, whoever comes up to join is fair game. If the socially awkward mom came up to join us, we would graciously include her even if there might be an inward groan. Same for a child or young person. I want my children to be welcome to join in such groups to learn the social dynamics of group interactions.

 

If I've invited a harried mom over for a specifically "Moms only" time, then I make it clear to all the children at the start. I will tell them, "The moms are going to talk right now. We just need some time to be by ourselves. Please play but do feel free to call me if you really need me." I would not consider it fair to not let the children and young people know the social rules of this particular situation.

 

I clearly should have read everything first because this post of Jean's says it better than I could have, and this is exactly what my husband thinks. I guess I'm struggling a bit with the implementation. I totally know when it is a "mom needing to unburden moment" and shoo away. I guess I'm thinking about the semi-awkward (maybe for me because I'm introverted) neighborhood block party, or extended family BBQ. We leave our kids home if not invited but if they are, my husband feels, "well, they're family, and they learn by conversing". But does that bug people? or is it just the "mom time" conversation?

[Nestof3]

My Dad still remembers the saying, "Children should be seen and not heard." This is how he was raised. It is almost assumed that children have nothing beneficial to talk about and that adults are the only ones who can teach.

 

I see this with Nathan. He is very bright, very knowledgeable, and very comfortable talking to strangers. He brings magic tricks to restaurants to amuse waiters who are taking a break and such. We thought about forbidding him to do so, but we decided to let the the waiters decide for themselves. He likes to join in when he hears adults talking about something he knows a lot about. People immediately dismiss him because they assume he has nothing to contribute. They are wrong. He is able to store info regarding just about anything he has read or listened to.

 

Sure, I need to remind him to speak more quietly because he gets very excited, but what he has to say is still worthwhile.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Exactly.

 

What I meant by subtle cues Jean, is imagine if you and I were sitting on a bench talking and your child came and started prattling away about her stuffed animal collection. After a few minutes you notice that I am smiling and saying, "How lovely!" but not really trying to know more about the minutiae of said collection.

 

Wouldn't you then say something to your child along the lines of, "Thanks for sharing dear. Run along and play"?

 

This is what I was getting at. I have been in situations where the parent does not intervene and let their child drone on and on. Instead they think that everything that comes out of their mouth is profoundly interesting and wonderful.

 

I totally agree. But I see the onus there on the parent not the young child.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I guess this is the issue I would really like guidance on, and maybe the answer is "people are different". I have a mature, well-behaved, almost 12 year old who has lots of friends his age. (And I'm not talking about a park day where it has a "moms take a break" feel.) But if we're in a mixed age social setting where he doesn't have a particular friend -- often with relatives, could be with friends -- he might want to join a conversation that my husband or I are having with someone, just as I might walk up and join a conversation my husband is having. (Obviously I don't do that when someone is talking in hushed tones or it is otherwise clearly private, but all the time I might join a conversation that he (or others) are having when it seems otherwise appropriate.) So it is hard to explain to my son why he isn't necessarily welcome. The good news is that no one involved seems irritated, and my husband says it is all in my mind to worry. We never bring our kids to an adult only social occasion, and my husband feels if it is all ages (especially family) that people should be comfortable with my son's presence. But reading comments here make me cringe all over again. I'm just not sure how to tell whether people care, and how to "clear" his presence once he's already there.

 

I agree with your husband. And I feel a bit hot under the collar at the idea that I should have to "clear" my young adults presence or his appropriate addition to a conversation.

[Rebecca VA]

Going back to the issue of whether to correct a child directly or speak to his parent, I generally vote for correcting the child directly. Most children don't mind being corrected; they usually say OK and settle down somewhat. No harm done and everyone's happy.

 

It's a lot harder to deal with a mom. First you have to locate the mom, then you have to interrupt her conversation (because if she's letting her child run wild it's almost certain that she's deep in conversation). Then you have to deal with her anger and disbelief that her child did anything wrong. I have seldom approached a stranger about her child and gotten a sincere and kind apology. She's far more likely to give me a nasty look and either ignore the situation or yank her child off in a huff to go home.

 

It's sad that children can be more reasonable to deal with than adults.

[Penelope]

oops.... it took 7 pages to figure out this thread is a moldy oldy.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Penelope

[HRAAB]

I just spent the weekend with family whose children interrupted and threw in comments (often inappropriate because they did not understand what the adults were talking about) constantly. Drove me absolutely CRAZY! There's a time for adult only conversation and there's a time for adult/child conversation. My dh and I talk with our children frequently throughout the day, about many different topics, but I have no problem with telling my child, "go play elsewhere". They know this means I am having an adult conversation with another adult and they are not included. When dh would come home from work we would go outside or to the living room with a drink and talk. The girls know that's it's grown up talk and they go elsewhere. Maybe some parents think I'm mean or not treating my children with respect, but I disagree. Children also need to learn to respect boundaries. Besides, I spend much more time talking with my children than I do other adults so they're hardly getting cheated. Sometimes it's just nice to have an adult conversation without children involved.

 

And I have a dd who has an extremely outgoing personality and is quite the conversationalist. Telling her to leave us (adults) alone while we talk hasn't seemed to stunt her in the least.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I just spent the weekend with family whose children interrupted and threw in comments (often inappropriate because they did not understand what the adults were talking about) constantly. Drove me absolutely CRAZY! There's a time for adult only conversation and there's a time for adult/child conversation. My dh and I talk with our children frequently throughout the day, about many different topics, but I have no problem with telling my child, "go play elsewhere". They know this means I am having an adult conversation with another adult and they are not included. When dh would come home from work we would go outside or to the living room with a drink and talk. The girls know that's it's grown up talk and they go elsewhere. Maybe some parents think I'm mean or not treating my children with respect, but I disagree. Children also need to learn to respect boundaries. Besides, I spend much more time talking with my children than I do other adults so they're hardly getting cheated. Sometimes it's just nice to have an adult conversation without children involved.

 

And I have a dd who has an extremely outgoing personality and is quite the conversationalist. Telling her to leave us (adults) alone while we talk hasn't seemed to stunt her in the least.

 

Those adults did not teach their children how to socialize properly - ie. to respect other people and to converse properly. I am talking about children who have been socialized properly. I am also primarily talking about young adults (some people call them teenagers) who should be learning to navigate the adult world in the warm embrace of social situations with family and friends.

[HRAAB]

Those adults did not teach their children how to socialize properly - ie. to respect other people and to converse properly. I am talking about children who have been socialized properly. I am also primarily talking about young adults (some people call them teenagers) who should be learning to navigate the adult world in the warm embrace of social situations with family and friends.

 

I think I need to go back and read the entire thread.

 

You're correct that it's the parents who are at fault. Because it is a difficult family member, I did not feel comfortable correcting their child - especially since the parent was right there! Also, I'm talking primarily about children 13 and younger. I'm pretty comfortable with older teens/young adults involved in conversations. In fact, I enjoy listening to their ideas and giving them an opportunity to express themselves as long as the topic is appropriate. I thought we were talking about children joining in adult conversations.

[Mrs Mungo]

Exactly.

 

What I meant by subtle cues Jean, is imagine if you and I were sitting on a bench talking and your child came and started prattling away about her stuffed animal collection. After a few minutes you notice that I am smiling and saying, "How lovely!" but not really trying to know more about the minutiae of said collection.

 

Wouldn't you then say something to your child along the lines of, "Thanks for sharing dear. Run along and play"?

 

This is what I was getting at. I have been in situations where the parent does not intervene and let their child drone on and on. Instead they think that everything that comes out of their mouth is profoundly interesting and wonderful.

 

I totally agree. But I see the onus there on the parent not the young child.

 

I agree with your husband. And I feel a bit hot under the collar at the idea that I should have to "clear" my young adults presence or his appropriate addition to a conversation.

 

Jean, I don't think our ideas about this are in conflict at all.

 

Let's take neighborhood BBQs as an example. Most of our friends who are our age have children that are *young*. Conversations are totally over the heads of their kids. Therefore, the fact that my kids are older is often not on their radars and they don't always watch what they say as a result. So, there are times I *suddenly* have to say "okay, you guys need to run on." They just have to understand that not all conversations are age appropriate.

 

Going back to the issue of whether to correct a child directly or speak to his parent, I generally vote for correcting the child directly. Most children don't mind being corrected; they usually say OK and settle down somewhat. No harm done and everyone's happy.

 

It's a lot harder to deal with a mom. First you have to locate the mom, then you have to interrupt her conversation (because if she's letting her child run wild it's almost certain that she's deep in conversation). Then you have to deal with her anger and disbelief that her child did anything wrong. I have seldom approached a stranger about her child and gotten a sincere and kind apology. She's far more likely to give me a nasty look and either ignore the situation or yank her child off in a huff to go home.

 

It's sad that children can be more reasonable to deal with than adults.

 

I agree. My neighbor recently found a 4 year old at our park picking glass bottles out of the trash and throwing them into the street. There was no adult present, so she asked the girl where she lived. She walked the girl to her house, the mom opened the door, grabbed the girl, pulled her inside and shut the door in my neighbor's face without saying anything or letting my neighbor say anything.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Jean, I don't think our ideas about this are in conflict at all.

 

 

I don't think our ideas about this are in conflict either. I just like to talk. . .;)

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't think our ideas about this are in conflict either. I just like to talk. . .;)

 

Ditto! :D

[Danestress]

I guess I'm thinking about the semi-awkward (maybe for me because I'm introverted) neighborhood block party, or extended family BBQ. We leave our kids home if not invited but if they are, my husband feels, "well, they're family, and they learn by conversing". But does that bug people? or is it just the "mom time" conversation?

 

I think if you can't deal with kids being part of the conversation, don't go to parties with kids. I don't think it's polite at all to expect to only have to talk to half the people or to make other guests feel unwelcome mingling.

 

I don't particularly want to spend my time at the park or a coffee shop having a seven year old engage me in a long conversation. I didn't go there to talk. Or maybe I went there with my kids (or husband or friends) to have time with them. I don't feel like it's rude not to want wandering strangers to invade my mental space and conversations even in public places. I don't have to talk to everyone at the coffee shop, even if they are cute and smart.

 

But I think it's sort of weird to get together with a friend and her children but expect not to have to interact with the children or to discuss something really personal that I don't want kids to hear. I think it's weird to go to a party and expect not to have kids be part of the crowd if it's a family event.

 

I do think adults or kids who are tedious, boring, and monopolizers of conversations are irritating. But when you are a guest, you deal with other guests even if they are irritating. You don't just tell them to get lost.

 

Edited to add that per usual, I overstated my case:) Obviously no one is advocating telling kids to "get lost."

Edited July 22, 2010 by Danestress

[Jean in Newcastle]

.

 

I don't particularly want to spend my time at the park or a coffee shop having a seven year old engage me in a long conversation. I didn't go there to talk. Or maybe I went there with my kids (or husband or friends) to have time with them. I don't feel like it's rude not to want wandering strangers to invade my mental space and conversations even in public places. I don't have to talk to everyone at the coffee shop, even if they are cute and smart.

 

 

 

If you mean random strange children then I do agree. I remember going to a Japanese restaurant for a sanity break from my kids. They sat me right next to a table of really whiny obnoxious kids. I made them move me to another spot:D

 

On the other hand, I seem to be a magnet for random strange children who are ignored by their parents. I spent 4 hours of a 5 hour plane ride entertaining a young 4 year old. Then I wanted to nap so I told him, "Now it is time for your mom to entertain you." I never did get my nap because she threw a toy at him and retreated to her IPod.:glare:

[Geek]

Well, obviously you are allowed to do what ever you like. "Go play kids, time for grown-up talk," seems to be a perfectly reasonable request. A few posters just gave me the impression that they have to listen to their kids all day so at no point do they want to have to listen to other children babble.

There is a world of gray between the two extremes of feeling obligated to listen to everything children say, and calling it all babble.

 

That wasn't the impression I got from the posts *at all*. The point I got from the posts was "I talk to kids all day every day, when I'm around grown-ups I should be allowed to have an adult conversation without my own child or another child butting in." I think that is a valid wish. Even when I'm with a group of extremely smart, well-educated, well-mannered teenagers the moms sometimes shoo them away so that the moms can talk.

Thank you, Mrs Mungo.

 

I am anti-social, bi-polar and don't play well with others but I don't wear a sign advertising the fact. Most normal adults are able to figure it out fairly quickly and keep their distance. Your precocious 7 year probably won't and I am quite sure you don't want me explaining it to him. I am not trying to be snarky either but people have their reasons for not wanting to engage with other people and children do need to be socialized to that fact.

WSS.

 

My point is that when I know up front that I'm going to be in that sort of situation, I let them know. Or if it comes up unexpectedly (the unexpected unburdening of the soul), I let them know gently at that time. I do not think it is fair to make them guess at whether they will be welcomed by adults. And I don't think it is fair to expect that they will get subtle cues and to be annoyed if they don't. There are polite ways to let them know that while they aren't welcome right now, it is a special situation that doesn't mean that they should never interact with adults.

I think there are at least two different social situations being visualized in this thread. 1) gatherings that involve entire families, including the men; and 2) gatherings during the day when home school moms and their kids are present.

 

The rules at each of these are quite different. I am far more tolerant and even appreciative of other people's children at family gatherings. But when I'm wearing my home school mom hat, my tolerance for other people's children is much lower. Their conversation is more likely to feel like babble to me at those times, and as KidsHappen said above, kids need to be socialized to these differences just as most adults seem to know the differences.

 

Exactly.

 

What I meant by subtle cues Jean, is imagine if you and I were sitting on a bench talking and your child came and started prattling away about her stuffed animal collection. After a few minutes you notice that I am smiling and saying, "How lovely!" but not really trying to know more about the minutiae of said collection.

 

Wouldn't you then say something to your child along the lines of, "Thanks for sharing dear. Run along and play"?

 

This is what I was getting at. I have been in situations where the parent does not intervene and let their child drone on and on. Instead they think that everything that comes out of their mouth is profoundly interesting and wonderful.

I think that is a possible explanation. Another possible explanation is that the mother isn't picking up on your subtle cues. At some point it's your responsibility to end the conversation with this child and stop assuming that subtlety is understood equally. I tend to think that those gifted with subtlety have a harder time understanding that some of us (myself included!) had to struggle to learn how to play that game.

[Geek]

I guess this is the issue I would really like guidance on, and maybe the answer is "people are different". I have a mature, well-behaved, almost 12 year old who has lots of friends his age. (And I'm not talking about a park day where it has a "moms take a break" feel.) But if we're in a mixed age social setting where he doesn't have a particular friend -- often with relatives, could be with friends -- he might want to join a conversation that my husband or I are having with someone, just as I might walk up and join a conversation my husband is having. (Obviously I don't do that when someone is talking in hushed tones or it is otherwise clearly private, but all the time I might join a conversation that he (or others) are having when it seems otherwise appropriate.) So it is hard to explain to my son why he isn't necessarily welcome.

 

The good news is that no one involved seems irritated, and my husband says it is all in my mind to worry. We never bring our kids to an adult only social occasion, and my husband feels if it is all ages (especially family) that people should be comfortable with my son's presence. But reading comments here make me cringe all over again. I'm just not sure how to tell whether people care, and how to "clear" his presence once he's already there.

It's one thing for a mature child of that age to stand quietly and keep his participation to listening only, and another thing entirely if he begins talking.

 

I clearly should have read everything first because this post of Jean's says it better than I could have, and this is exactly what my husband thinks. I guess I'm struggling a bit with the implementation. I totally know when it is a "mom needing to unburden moment" and shoo away. I guess I'm thinking about the semi-awkward (maybe for me because I'm introverted) neighborhood block party, or extended family BBQ. We leave our kids home if not invited but if they are, my husband feels, "well, they're family, and they learn by conversing". But does that bug people? or is it just the "mom time" conversation?

I think you've hit upon a key difference I pointed out above. Family time gatherings play by different rules than mom time gatherings.

 

I do disagree with you on one point, though: they don't learn by conversing. They learn by listening. They can practice their conversing skills with immediate family, Grandma and Grandpa, and close friends. Obviously this shifts as they get older.

 

My Dad still remembers the saying, "Children should be seen and not heard." This is how he was raised. It is almost assumed that children have nothing beneficial to talk about and that adults are the only ones who can teach.

 

I see this with Nathan. He is very bright, very knowledgeable, and very comfortable talking to strangers. He brings magic tricks to restaurants to amuse waiters who are taking a break and such. We thought about forbidding him to do so, but we decided to let the the waiters decide for themselves. He likes to join in when he hears adults talking about something he knows a lot about. People immediately dismiss him because they assume he has nothing to contribute. They are wrong. He is able to store info regarding just about anything he has read or listened to.

 

Sure, I need to remind him to speak more quietly because he gets very excited, but what he has to say is still worthwhile.

This isn't about whether or not he has something to say that you think is worthwhile. This is about whether or not it's appropriate for him to say it in all situations. My uncle may have the right to smoke, but he doesn't have the right to smoke where I am and I have the right to ask him to refrain from doing it or to politely excuse myself from the situation.

 

Learning boundaries is a matter of learning where I end and you begin.

 

On the other hand, I seem to be a magnet for random strange children who are ignored by their parents. I spent 4 hours of a 5 hour plane ride entertaining a young 4 year old. Then I wanted to nap so I told him, "Now it is time for your mom to entertain you." I never did get my nap because she threw a toy at him and retreated to her IPod.:glare:

I'm rather surprised that you did that. I would have spoken directly to the parent within five minutes of that nonsense. Just because she doesn't feel like engaging her child doesn't mean that child is my responsibility. Of course I would be polite and wouldn't rebuff the child, but if the mother insisted upon shirking *her* responsibility to *her* child, I would ask the flight attendant to be moved.

[Nestof3]

And it's all about whose boundaries they are. Many boundaries come from deep-rooted ideas that children should be seen and not heard. That they are meanial. There were times when the same view was held of women and of blacks. I have been at dinner tables where the children do not speak -- especially when other adults are present. I do think adults need to hp children learn what is appropriate, though. I think if adults want private conversation, they should set things up to be this way. I make it clear to my boys when I want to talk to my friend alone for a while, for example. We will often have the children eat at another table from the adults, for example.

 

I think all people should have boundaries, not just children. I have seen adults come into clearly private conversations before. I see adults who never stop talking -- who don't understand the give and take of conversations. I think it is important to include children when the conversation warrants it, and I think it is important to show them that they have something to add. I think this is one of the problems with teens. They desire to start acting more adult- like, and we expect them to start acting more adult-like, but we tend to ignore them during conversation and brush them aside. I like talking to kids. I ask them questions and enjoy having them tell me about things they are interested in.

 

You cannot possibly think I mean that children should just talk whenever they feel like it or that they should be able to just interupt people's conversation. But I have noticed an overwhelming viewpoint of "run along now and get out of our hair" attitude toward children.

 

This is one of the reasons I like family-integrated churches.

 

This isn't about whether or not he has something to say that you think is worthwhile. This is about whether or not it's appropriate for him to say it in all situations. My uncle may have the right to smoke, but he doesn't have the right to smoke where I am and I have the right to ask him to refrain from doing it or to politely excuse myself from the situation.

 

Learning boundaries is a matter of learning where I end and you begin.

 

 

[MamaJo]

I agree.

 

I don't think it's necessarily a matter of making the outgoing, confident child be someone else. It's a matter of teaching him or her boundaries. They have every right to be themselves, and I have every right to not have my ear talked off by someone else's child. My own children exhaust me and I really don't want to have to deal with someone else's, and when I'm having an adult conversation I'd like it to remain an adult conversation. When outgoing, mature children start hanging on to the adults (and even interjecting comments from time to time), I am sure my irritation shows on my face more than I'd like.

 

I'm not entirely sure that's what you meant, though, Lisa R.

 

I agree with this. Sometimes kids just are not invited into an adult conversation even if they could hold their own end quite well.

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

I'm rather surprised that you did that. I would have spoken directly to the parent within five minutes of that nonsense. Just because she doesn't feel like engaging her child doesn't mean that child is my responsibility. Of course I would be polite and wouldn't rebuff the child, but if the mother insisted upon shirking *her* responsibility to *her* child, I would ask the flight attendant to be moved.

 

I've thought about this thread a lot lately. I realized that I'm probably coming at social interactions (whether planned or thrust upon me) from a different place than many people. I am a Christian, I view my social interactions as a time to "be Christ" to those in my periphery. What this means in more direct terms is that I want to see all people as worthwhile creations of God who share something of God's image. So I do not want to marginalize anyone.

 

That doesn't mean that I won't and don't set boundaries. I didn't set really firm boundaries in the plane flight situation because even though I knew within 5 min. that the mom was shirking her responsibility, and it did inconvenience me somewhat, I was willing to do so for their sakes even though they were strangers.

 

As far as children and teens go, I believe that old adage that more is "caught than taught". Yes, this can mean that they learn a lot from listening. But it also means that they learn from the subtle attitudes that adults have toward them too. I do not want my children to learn that they can turn away from people just because they are wearying to listen to, or because they are immature or because I have "better things to do" or "more interesting people to interact with". (Not quoting anyone here. The quotes are for emphasis).

 

I used to go to one of those homeschool mom and kid's park days. I stopped going very quickly because the moms all congregated to the side and had no interaction at all with the kids. This bothered me on a fundamental level because even though there was clear bullying going on that I could see at 50 paces, no one other than me was willing to interact with the kids so as to stop it and to encourage other more wholesome behavior. There was this "if you require even a modicum of my energy to interact with you it's too much bother" attitude from both moms and kids. I saw many kids and moms too pushed to the side because they were shy or slightly different from the pack. No thanks, this was not the attitude that I wanted my kids to catch. I did stay for many months hoping to subtlely make a difference but I realized that instead the group was having a not so subtle influence on my children. So we left.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Jean in Newcastle

[Jenny in GA]

If a child wants to talk to you why would you not want to talk to them?? Why would you not want to model good behavior? If there are children in the vicinity what is it that you would be saying or doing that is so important that you couldn't take the time to be courteous? After all, "a person's a person, no matter how small." - Horton the Elephant.

 

This reminds me of something that happened several years ago when I had one child, a baby. I was at the libary and on the computer near the door. The baby was in the stoller or something, and two kids that were about 8 and 10 came in and happily started talking to me and the baby. Okay, that was great. But after a minute of two of that, I went back to Whatever I was doing on the computer.

 

One of the children, a boy of about 9 or 10, just kept talking to me and talking to me .... about his collections, his video games, etc. I would give a slight smile, nod, and face the monitor and continue typing, as a way of politely dismissing him. He just continued to talk. I would try it again, and he would continue to talk. I did not see a parent anywhere in sight.

 

I guess in retrospect I should have said, "I can't talk anymore. I'm working on something!" But it seemed so obvious that I was working on something that I'm not sure it would have done any good. Plus, it just annoyed me that this child was talking endlessly to me in a public place. I felt trapped. And I kept thinking that surely the parent would come over and intervene any minute, but he/she never did. I guess eventually I left, or the kid did.

 

Want to hear the funny part? The kids had told me they were homeschooled. Remember, at the time my oldest was a baby. I remember distinctly thinking, "Homeschooled parents always say their kids are so mature and articulate and can get along 'with all age groups.' I guess this is what they mean. No thank you!"

 

Jenny

[In2why]

I despise when people take it upon themselves to parent my kids. Even if my kids are in the wrong or behaveing poorly. This infuriates me!!!!

 

Now when someone comes up to me and says, "I'm not sure you realize that your son is climbing the shelves...having a water fight in the drinking fountain..." I respect that...and will quickly get my children under control.

 

It is my belife that unknown adults have no buisness talking to children without first talking to the parent.

 

I see where you are coming from but as an adult that is often in an "authority" position....soccer coach, football VP, Tiger Den leader, and so on...there are often times when I will correct someone else's child and if the parent doesn't know me (and the only way they couldn't is if they never come to practice/meetings/events) then it might come across as not appropriate. It is actually funny to me that so often parents are afraid to say something when they see a child doing something destrcutive or dangerous because they don't know whether the parents would like it or not. These kids have us seriously out numbered and as long as no one is disciplining my children I am happy when they show them the right path when I am not there. Today at VBS a wonderful woman brought a lot of animals to share with the kids and some older boys were actually going to the caged animals and putting their fingers inside, moving the crates around and being excited but careless....Mom was taking pictures of them while they did it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

This reminds me of something that happened several years ago when I had one child, a baby. I was at the libary and on the computer near the door. The baby was in the stoller or something, and two kids that were about 8 and 10 came in and happily started talking to me and the baby. Okay, that was great. But after a minute of two of that, I went back to Whatever I was doing on the computer.

 

One of the children, a boy of about 9 or 10, just kept talking to me and talking to me .... about his collections, his video games, etc. I would give a slight smile, nod, and face the monitor and continue typing, as a way of politely dismissing him. He just continued to talk. I would try it again, and he would continue to talk. I did not see a parent anywhere in sight.

 

I guess in retrospect I should have said, "I can't talk anymore. I'm working on something!" But it seemed so obvious that I was working on something that I'm not sure it would have done any good. Plus, it just annoyed me that this child was talking endlessly to me in a public place. I felt trapped. And I kept thinking that surely the parent would come over and intervene any minute, but he/she never did. I guess eventually I left, or the kid did.

 

Want to hear the funny part? The kids had told me they were homeschooled. Remember, at the time my oldest was a baby. I remember distinctly thinking, "Homeschooled parents always say their kids are so mature and articulate and can get along 'with all age groups.' I guess this is what they mean. No thank you!"

 

Jenny

 

But see, I think you should have said something. Without a parent there, you were the adult in the situation. (I'm saying this more as a principle than as a condemnation of you in this particular situation).

 

I had something similar to this happen to me in an adult to adult situation. I was making small talk with someone at an event. I knew the person and was trying to make the person feel included because they were on the very periphery of the group. I am fairly socially savvy and do get subtle social cues in normal life, but he did not give any subtle social cues that I saw. All of a sudden while I was in mid sentence, this man turned his back to me and picked up a magazine. I obviously got this very nonsubtle but very rude cue and excused myself and left him alone.

 

It takes two people to make social interaction. If the other person does not pick up on cues it is the other person's responsibility to pick up the slack in being more direct while maintaining politeness. Last night I had to put this in action. A neighbor was over asking for medical advice. My husband and I had helped her as much as we could and it was our dinner time. The subtle social cues were me excusing myself to finish up the supper which needed attention on the stove, setting the table etc. When she did not get the subtle cues, I said with a smile, "I'm going to have to kick you out now because we need to eat our dinner. Call us if you need to talk more." She left happy.

[Laura Corin]

Exactly.

 

What I meant by subtle cues Jean, is imagine if you and I were sitting on a bench talking and your child came and started prattling away about her stuffed animal collection. After a few minutes you notice that I am smiling and saying, "How lovely!" but not really trying to know more about the minutiae of said collection.

 

Wouldn't you then say something to your child along the lines of, "Thanks for sharing dear. Run along and play"?

 

This is what I was getting at. I have been in situations where the parent does not intervene and let their child drone on and on. Instead they think that everything that comes out of their mouth is profoundly interesting and wonderful.

 

At ten he is capable of picking up those signals (they are quite specific - if an adult says 'Uh-huh' or similar more than twice in a row, then change the topic, ask them something specific to involve them in the conversation, or leave politely). When he was younger, I constantly rescued adults whom he had pinned down.

 

Laura

[Parrothead]

 

 

 

I agree. My neighbor recently found a 4 year old at our park picking glass bottles out of the trash and throwing them into the street. There was no adult present, so she asked the girl where she lived. She walked the girl to her house, the mom opened the door, grabbed the girl, pulled her inside and shut the door in my neighbor's face without saying anything or letting my neighbor say anything.

Well, no wonder the child has no home training. The mother doesn't either!

[Snickerdoodle]

At ten he is capable of picking up those signals (they are quite specific - if an adult says 'Uh-huh' or similar more than twice in a row, then change the topic, ask them something specific to involve them in the conversation, or leave politely). When he was younger, I constantly rescued adults whom he had pinned down.

 

Laura

 

I think this is good parenting. Kids need to learn social cues. I sometimes wish someone would rescue me from one of my own kids who talks just to hear the sound of his voice. ;)

 

I'm still working on, "Be aware of your surroundings (aka don't stand right in the middle of everyone's way esp. in the grocery store)."

[EmilyK]

 

I'm still working on, "Be aware of your surroundings (aka don't stand right in the middle of everyone's way esp. in the grocery store)."

 

I guess this is a new topic but I'm working on that one and it is not going well.:tongue_smilie:

[In2why]

:confused: Kids are ALWAYS around. "Go play kids, time for grown-up talk," is a phrase I often use with my kids. Am I not allowed to have friends or talk to them just because I have kids?

 

:iagree: This made me laugh....It is a rare event that I can get together with just my GF's, and usually that is in celebration for something so we rarely talk about sensitive stuff then. If I didn't vent, rage, joke, laugh, and remember I was an adult woman with my friends while the kids were somewhere around it would never happen.

[2squared]

I've been thinking about this thread lately. I think the answer is that everyone is different. My dad could talk to a brick wall, and he enjoys all people. He loves to talking to children, teenagers, adults, dogs, whatever. He gets energy from those interactions.

 

Me? Not so much. I love the rare adult conversation, but talking to children (even others' mature, articulate, wonderful teens) wears me out. When I'm conversing with kids, I'm in Mom mode. Mom mode is work since the conversation is almost always (no matter how wonderful, intelligent, knowledgeable, etc the kids are) me giving and giving and giving. When I am in an adult conversation, it is much more likely to be a give-and-take situation. And, if it's not, I can use my social skills to get out of the conversation successfully.

 

Now, conversations with kids within a family setting are different yet again. Although still work, those conversations don't leave me drained.

[Jenny in GA]

But see, I think you should have said something. Without a parent there, you were the adult in the situation. (I'm saying this more as a principle than as a condemnation of you in this particular situation).

 

It takes two people to make social interaction. If the other person does not pick up on cues it is the other person's responsibility to pick up the slack in being more direct while maintaining politeness. Last night I had to put this in action. A neighbor was over asking for medical advice. My husband and I had helped her as much as we could and it was our dinner time. The subtle social cues were me excusing myself to finish up the supper which needed attention on the stove, setting the table etc. When she did not get the subtle cues, I said with a smile, "I'm going to have to kick you out now because we need to eat our dinner. Call us if you need to talk more." She left happy.

 

You're probably right. But my beef is, Why was I the adult in this situation? I didn't ask to be in charge of this child who I didn't even know. Why were the parents letting the kid pester stranger on and on and on in a public place?

 

Your post reminds me of something that happened to me in college. Two mutual friends sat down and had a talk with me about some things they had been discussing together that bothered them about me.

 

One of them was that I had been in Friend A's room one evening (which was down the hall from me in my dorm), and we were hanging and chatting and (I thought) having a good time. At one point, Friend A changed into her pajamas, and we continued to sit and chat for a while. I stayed til maybe 11:00 pm, which seemed didn't seem like an unusual thing to me, in a dorm setting.

 

Well when they both came to see me, Friend A had told Friend B this story and Friend B was appalled that I had been so rude. According to both of them, I should NOT have stayed there as late as I did, and they couldn't believe that Friend A had changed into pajamas and I still didn't leave!

 

Well, I didn't think a thing about the pajamas. It was a dorm at night. I thought she was just getting comfortable!

 

I thought (and still do), "My gosh, couldn't you have just said, 'Well, this has been fun, but I need to go to sleep now. See you tomorrow'?" To run and talk to the other friend about me, then get all riled up together and confront me together .... My goodness! Why couldn't you have just said something then??

 

Jenny

[Jean in Newcastle]

I thought (and still do), "My gosh, couldn't you have just said, 'Well, this has been fun, but I need to go to sleep now. See you tomorrow'?" To run and talk to the other friend about me, then get all riled up together and confront me together .... My goodness! Why couldn't you have just said something then??

 

 

 

I agree totally. I think sometimes we get so caught up in not "offending" someone that we offend them even more by not treating them as someone who is capable of understanding our needs as well.

 

Even a child can understand to some degree that "Mommy needs to talk to her friend alone now" if it really is a genuine need. I think the "conflict" that you see in this thread (ie. a conflict of ideas not :boxing_smiley:) is that in these situations you often have multiple needs. Yes, mom needs time to talk alone with her friends. But also little ones need time to share with Mommy's friend too. (I don't mean that they need to be crawling all over everyone who comes to the door and interrupting etc. But they do need to be acknowledged as important people. Peela said it well in the other S/O thread that "children need to be really connected with".) And teens have a need to feel like they can spend some time at the "grown-ups" table discussing stuff with the adults.

 

So how do you balance these needs? If it is a get-together that is a number of hours long, like perhaps a bbq, then over the course of the evening you can often meet all of these needs in turn. If it is a short visit while Mom's friend drops off some hand-me-downs, sometimes everyone's needs can't be met. But you can acknowledge that by saying "This is a short visit, so Mommy's friend can't spend the time looking at your latest picture. But she'll be back soon and I promise then that your picture will be the top priority." (And then follow through next time, of course.)

 

I guess the crux of some of what I'm saying in this post is that simply acknowledging each other as people with needs and ourselves as people with needs can often go a long way. But just focusing on your own need for grown-up conversation (as valid as it is) while ignoring the child and teen's genuine need (which often is not expressed clearly or appropriately) is a form of selfishness. Yes, many parents have not met their children's needs for attention and boundaries and social instruction. And it isn't the guest's responsibility to solely provide all of that. But I do think that in society we are each others "neighbor" and that we do have some responsibility to everyone present in a situation.

[kdeno]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Jean in Newcastle]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

:blushing: Ah, thanks!