Jewish faith question-Would someone be able to explain to me as simply as possible

[OnTheBrink]

Who the heck is tagging this as anti-semitism? There are no "anti-Jew" posts in this thread. :001_rolleyes:

[Impish]

Who the heck is tagging this as anti-semitism? There are no "anti-Jew" posts in this thread. :001_rolleyes:

Apparently some feel that the term "Messianic Jew" is anti-Semitic.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

For years there has been an organization called "Jews For Jesus" whose mission is to convert Jews to xianity. Jews started their own organization called "Jews for Judaism" to protect their own from what they consider anti-semitic activity.

 

They consider it an affront to try to destroy their faith and culture by converting to something else. Co-opting Jewish rituals does not make you Jewish.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

That is discrimination against a religious group!

 

 

 

No.....calling a Jew "incomplete" because they don't share another person's belief.....THAT is discrimination against a religious group.

[Spy Car]

Bill, OT prophecy is full of references to a coming messiah. Why do you think the Jews don't believe in messiah? Read Isaiah, or any of the prophets.

 

Religious Jews do believe in a messiah. But they don't believe in the messiah as god incarnate. That is a Christian concept, not a Jewish one.

 

Further, many Jews believe a potential messiah is born in every generation, and that if people behave rigorously that person will become the "king" and the messianic age will begin. And that if the conditions are not met (as till now) that potential messiah will pass. This is not "universal" in Judaism.

 

And, I think it's a stretch to say that MJ's calling themselves MJ's is somehow laying claim to the obliteration of the Jews. That's not the goal and according to biblical prophecy, won't happen even if it were. Again, that would be contrary to what they believe.

 

Saying Christianity is Judaism or "completed" Judaism or that those who worship Jesus as a God are practicing Judaism pretty well negates the Jewish faith as far as Jews see it.

 

Bill

[OnTheBrink]

Apparently some feel that the term "Messianic Jew" is anti-Semitic.

 

I think some want to create drama where there is none. People can disagree on MJ's without them being anti-Jew. Sorta like not liking what the president says and it not having anything to do with his race.

[specialmama]

I think you make my point. If a group believes in a divine messiah (a concept unknown in Judaism), and they claim (rightly) not only to be "ethnic" Jews, but further claim that their religion is Judaism, then they lay claim to obliterating the Jewish faith in the process.

 

And this is exactly why Jews are so troubled by the use of the term.

 

Don't you see that?

 

Bill

 

Don't I see what? That you do not know your facts? Sure I see that.

The idea that "they lay claim to obliterating the Jewish faith" is simply hogwosh and ignorant. That's WHY they choose to a different name: Messianic Jews.

As for a divine messiah, who says a divine Messiah is unknown in Judaism? Again, one group believes this, one group believes that... to say it is unknown strikes down Messianic Jews. Don't you see that?

[Earth Yarn]

I disagree, Spy Car. So if there is a Jew who is a Christian, why aren't they considered a Messianic Jew?! Same belief, they just believe Jesus was it.

 

No one I know, who calls themselves Messianic Jews, are doing it to be rude or insulting, or "use the term knowing full well it cause the gravest insult to Jews, because the term inherently negates the Jewish faith". That is just astounding to me. :confused:

 

 

Because if you believe Jesus was it then you are not Jewish simple as that. ;)

 

Being a Jew myself and having majored in archeology and theology there is a very distinct difference.

 

There are other other religions that have branched off of Judaism but have not carried over the term Jewish because of differences in belief and those differences are much more subtle then belief in Jesus. Namely Islam. Islam and Judaism are very very close. They share the same dietary habits, believe much of the same things, pray in very similar ways but Jews do not accept Mohamed as a prophet. That is the main difference. There are Christians who do keep the same dietary habits as Jews, incorporate Hebrew prayer into their services and what not and they are called strict Catholics, orthodox Christians ect.

 

Just as if a Christian or someone of another faith were to convert to Judaism they would no longer be called Christian. A person who is Jewish and converts to another faith can no longer be called Jewish. You do not hear of any Judianic Christians do you?

 

In the Jewish faith their are strict signs of the messiah given in the texts and they were not met when Jesus Christ entered into history. so to Jews he is not the messiah thus if you believe him to be the messiah you are not Jewish.

 

With that all stated I am not in any way offended by the term Messianic Jew. In fact it takes a whole lot in this world to offend me period. It does bother me however when anyone does not bother to thoroughly think out things like facts, terms and whatnot before they put a label on any group of people that may not be 100% accurate.

[specialmama]

 

 

Saying Christianity is Judaism or "completed" Judaism or that those who worship Jesus as a God are practicing Judaism pretty well negates the Jewish faith as far as Jews see it.

 

Bill

NOT as far as Jews who believe in Jesus see it. Period.

[Sputterduck]

Because if you practice Christianity and you claim your religion is Judaism ("completed", Messianic, or otherwise) you are saying traditional Judaism is inauthentic.

 

Bill

 

I've never come across a Christian or a Christian resource or MJ person or resource who were ever even come close the thinking that Judaism in it's traditions is inauthentic. Quite the opposite.

[QueenCat]

I know people who call themselves "Messianic Christians". They are not of Jewish ethnicity. They believe in Jesus as the Savior and practice most Jewish customs, along with honoring most of the festivals and high holy days.

[Spy Car]

Funny how at the synagogue I learned Hebrew at they told me that Jews waiting for a messiah was a Christian thought and that Jews aren't and never were. They were Reform though, and didn't exactly care about sticking to things word for word. I thought it was odd, but they all asserted it strongly.

 

That's why I said "in the main". Because, as you rightly suggest, in Reform Judaism the importance of a messiah is strongly down-played as opposed to Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox groups where there may be a strong belief in a coming messianic age.

 

Bill

[ciyates]

 

Just don't fail to understand that the term "Messianic Jews" causes outrage in the Jewish community. And if you, or groups self-identifying as such, use the term that it does cause grave insult to Jews.

 

Just so you are aware.

 

Bill

 

I just spoke to a rabbi who (by his proclamation) and Orthodox Jew and he says this is not insulting to Jews. He explained (as previously stated) it is a group of Jewish people who maintain all the laws of Moses however they believe that Jesus is the Messiah. According to him it does not cause any friction within the very strict Jewish community he belongs. The term is not derogatory or insulting.

[Spy Car]

I've never come across a Christian or a Christian resource or MJ person or resource who were ever even come close the thinking that Judaism in it's traditions is inauthentic. Quite the opposite.

 

Not in it's "traditions", the MJ's embrace many of the traditions and the rituals.

 

But it is another story when they claim their Christian beliefs are religious Judaism. And that's where the problem is.

 

Bill

[Erica in PA]

To ask the question regarding secular Jews as offensive to practicing Jews for the act of self identifying as Jews makes clear that the differences between their world view and your own are vast.

 

I don't know what you mean here... would you mind clarifying a bit? It is my understanding that Jews believe in God, the God of the Old Testament... and yet there are many Jews who are Jews culturally who do not accept this-- who actually reject it completely. They are still Jews. So a Jewish person can have no spiritual beliefs at all and be a Jew, but not believe in Jesus and be a Jew? Why is that? And why does asking that question clearly show a vast difference in worldview?

[Spy Car]

I just spoke to a rabbi who (by his proclamation) and Orthodox Jew and he says this is not insulting to Jews. He explained (as previously stated) it is a group of Jewish people who maintain all the laws of Moses however they believe that Jesus is the Messiah. According to him it does not cause any friction within the very strict Jewish community he belongs. The term is not derogatory or insulting.

 

Really? Because I've had a radically different experience, and witnessed the outrage innumerable times.

 

If you are suggesting a rabbi has little or no problem with people (ethnic Jews included) following the laws of Moses (even if they happen to believe in the divinity of Jesus) that I believe. That is what I would expect.

 

If the rabbi is saying it's fine for these people to call their religion and the worship of Jesus as a god "Judaism", that I don't believe for a moment is true.

 

Bill

[Erica in PA]

 

And the problems arise from calling a variation of the Christian faith "Jewish" and not from converts to Christianity maintaing their Jewish ethnic identity.

 

 

 

Maybe that's partly why I see it differently... I think when I hear Messianic Jew: "a follower of Jesus who has a Jewish ethnic identity."

[Sputterduck]

That's why I said "in the main". Because, as you rightly suggest, in Reform Judaism the importance of a messiah is strongly down-played as opposed to Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox groups where there may be a strong belief in a coming messianic age.

 

Bill

 

Yeah, I was just kinda shocked by it. They seemed to be completely unaware that Any Jews were waiting for a messiah. It was an awesome time though with some very awesome people that I'll never forget.

[Aubrey]

How do you not distinguish the two?

 

Jews (who practice Judaism) don't believe in a divine moshiach or messiah. They don't hold to the idea this "anointed one" will be a "son of God" or a component part of a divine god-head. Jews see the Moshiah as a great political leader but one who is "human" and only human.

 

And you know what Christians believe. It's not the same thing. These are two separate belief systems, that diverged thousands of years ago.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you are saying, but the so-called "Messianic Jewish" movement is a modern one. There were some antecedent "Hebrew-Christian" groups in the nineteenth century, but in the main this movement started in the 1960's as a way of converting Jews to Christianity.

 

It is not an ancient movement.

 

 

 

I would suspect many Christians would take issue with this. Would an Italian not be a Christian in the same way a Sunday-morning Baptist is a Christian. Why is it different for an ethnic Jew?

 

 

 

Huh? If an ethnic Jew believes that Jesus was the messiah, then how is he (or she) not a Christian?

 

And in any case they are not practicing Judaism.

 

 

 

Unfair? How is it unfair? A person pretty much has to choose if they are a Jew, a Christian, or a Muslim, as these faiths have some mutually exclusive ideas.

 

 

 

No one has said a Jew couldn't "follow Jesus" and thereby become religiously Christian. They just couldn't become a Christian, and at the same time claim they were practicing Judaism. Not without causing grave offense to the Jewish community.

 

I would think that you are sensitive and intelligent enough to understand to understand the problem Jews have with this.

 

All the best,

 

Bill

 

Bill,

 

A lot of what you are saying reminds me of denominational rifts within the Christian church. People could point to the same differences between Catholicism & Protestantism that you're using to differentiate between Jews & ... Christian Jews?

 

I understand that some Jews could be really offended by other Jews' acceptance of Jesus as Messiah, just as some Christians are offended by other Christians' reverence for Mary. Some even go so far as to say that Catholics cannot be Christians because by honoring the saints, they are worshiping multiple gods.

 

My point is that division is sort of the nature of religion. I would say that Christian Jews, Messianic Jews, whatever term is acceptable, are a sect of Jews, generally speaking, in the same way that I would say that Catholics & Protestants are both Christians.

 

I understand what you're saying about Jews not looking to a divine Messiah, too, but neither were Jesus' disciples. They were disappointed that Jesus had not come to instigate a revolution. It's a different understanding than what they were expecting, sure. But the disciples were able to come to that different understanding while still holding to the faith of Abraham.

 

Fwiw, the problem I have seen in discussions like these is that when some people refer to the Jewish faith, they mean the part that's in the Bible, the...oh, I forget what it's called, but the written part. Other people, though, mean tradition--all of the *interpretation* of those written laws over the ensuing...um...years.

 

Again, though, doesn't that remind you of the difference between Protestants & Catholics? Catholics embrace tradition, where Protestants aim for text-only, or text-supreme?

 

And if this argument--whether or not Christian Jews can be Christians & Jews at the same time--is like the argument regarding whether or not Catholics & Protestants practice the same faith--well, I don't see everybody agreeing any time soon.

 

But we wouldn't like someone saying "How DARE you call yourself a Christian!?" to a Catholic/Protestant. Likewise, it seems unfair to say the same to a person calling himself a Messianic Jew. Whether or not other sects of Judaism like this sect, it does seem like an accurate description of the person's faith.

[specialmama]

.............................................*insert Charlie Brown "waaah waaah wah wah"............................

 

Bill

 

:svengo:

[specialmama]

Bill,

 

A lot of what you are saying reminds me of denominational rifts within the Christian church. People could point to the same differences between Catholicism & Protestantism that you're using to differentiate between Jews & ... Christian Jews?

 

I understand that some Jews could be really offended by other Jews' acceptance of Jesus as Messiah, just as some Christians are offended by other Christians' reverence for Mary. Some even go so far as to say that Catholics cannot be Christians because by honoring the saints, they are worshiping multiple gods.

 

My point is that division is sort of the nature of religion. I would say that Christian Jews, Messianic Jews, whatever term is acceptable, are a sect of Jews, generally speaking, in the same way that I would say that Catholics & Protestants are both Christians.

 

I understand what you're saying about Jews not looking to a divine Messiah, too, but neither were Jesus' disciples. They were disappointed that Jesus had not come to instigate a revolution. It's a different understanding than what they were expecting, sure. But the disciples were able to come to that different understanding while still holding to the faith of Abraham.

 

Fwiw, the problem I have seen in discussions like these is that when some people refer to the Jewish faith, they mean the part that's in the Bible, the...oh, I forget what it's called, but the written part. Other people, though, mean tradition--all of the *interpretation* of those written laws over the ensuing...um...years.

 

Again, though, doesn't that remind you of the difference between Protestants & Catholics? Catholics embrace tradition, where Protestants aim for text-only, or text-supreme?

 

And if this argument--whether or not Christian Jews can be Christians & Jews at the same time--is like the argument regarding whether or not Catholics & Protestants practice the same faith--well, I don't see everybody agreeing any time soon.

 

But we wouldn't like someone saying "How DARE you call yourself a Christian!?" to a Catholic/Protestant. Likewise, it seems unfair to say the same to a person calling himself a Messianic Jew. Whether or not other sects of Judaism like this sect, it does seem like an accurate description of the person's faith.

 

Aubrey, I want you to know that if I ever have a baby girl, I'm naming her after you.

[Sputterduck]

How is this really any different than Protestants be offended by JWs and Mormons calling themselves Christian? Those are new movements, and they diverge quite radically from traditional Christianity, yet people are all over Protestants who don't want JWs and Mormons using the term Christian.

[LibraryLover]

Here is what Relgioustolerance.org has to say about the opostition:

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mess_jud4.htm

[Sputterduck]

Here is what Relgioustolerance.org has to say about the opostition:

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mess_jud4.htm

 

"Liberal and mainline Christian groups generally believe that Jews, as God's chosen people, will be saved according to God's permanent covenants with them, as explained in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). There is no need for them to accept Jesus Christ. Thus they view attempts by conservative Christians to evangelize Jews is a wasted effort, and insulting to Judaism."

 

This, from that link, is just plain not true. The first people to be converted were Jews, and that's not because Jews didn't need to be converted. Although maybe they're referring to Jews not needing to be adopted into the family.

[Aubrey]

How is this really any different than Protestants be offended by JWs and Mormons calling themselves Christian? Those are new movements, and they diverge quite radically from traditional Christianity, yet people are all over Protestants who don't want JWs and Mormons using the term Christian.

 

That's what I mean: the same willingness to listen to ea other might be welcome in both discussions. Maybe *ought* to be welcome? Maybe...would be helpful/a good idea? Hm.

 

Let me try again. My faith is very different, imo, from a Mormon. But to look that person in the eye & tell them that I know w/out a doubt what the God of the Universe thinks of them would be...hubris.

 

So instead, I try to put myself in the shoes of those who have a different faith, different set of experiences, whatever. And I try to think about why a person would believe the way he/she does & how I would want to be treated in such a case. (Not like I'm stupid, not like I'm a heretic, not like I have plague or I'm out to offend someone by the mere mention of my faith.)

 

In the end, it makes me sadly uncertain of so many things, but my main goal is to not *add* hurt to anyone's life. I figure there's enough of that already.

[Spy Car]

I understand that some Jews could be really offended by other Jews' acceptance of Jesus as Messiah, just as some Christians are offended by other Christians' reverence for Mary.

 

It's not the conversion of ethnic Jews to Christianity that's the issue, it's calling that religious faith "Judaism" that causes the big problems.

 

No group likes to lose "membership", let's not deny that, but the extreme offense taken with MJs comes with the expropriation of the name "Judaism". I don't know why any fair-minded person wouldn't understand this.

 

Some even go so far as to say that Catholics cannot be Christians because by honoring the saints, they are worshiping multiple gods.

 

I understand the rap on Catholics as Mary-worshippers, and understand some non-Trinitarians see the concept of a Triune God as polytheistic. But I don't understand what these inter-denominational differences have to do with differences between two distinct faiths.

 

My point is that division is sort of the nature of religion. I would say that Christian Jews, Messianic Jews, whatever term is acceptable, are a sect of Jews, generally speaking, in the same way that I would say that Catholics & Protestants are both Christians.

 

I don't comprehend how you could suggest people practicing Christianity are practicing Judaism.

 

Would you say Muslims are practicing a form of Christianity? After all Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet of God. Would you go for this? Muslims are "completed" Christians? I rather doubt it.

 

Fwiw, the problem I have seen in discussions like these is that when some people refer to the Jewish faith, they mean the part that's in the Bible, the...oh, I forget what it's called, but the written part. Other people, though, mean tradition--all of the *interpretation* of those written laws over the ensuing...um...years.

 

Again, though, doesn't that remind you of the difference between Protestants & Catholics? Catholics embrace tradition, where Protestants aim for text-only, or text-supreme?

 

There are differences between Jews just as there are differences between Christians. But all Christians believe Jesus was the savior (as far as I'm aware). Jews (who practice Judaism) don't share this belief. It's pretty a simple line of demarcation.

 

And if this argument--whether or not Christian Jews can be Christians & Jews at the same time--is like the argument regarding whether or not Catholics & Protestants practice the same faith--well, I don't see everybody agreeing any time soon.

 

A person can be ethnically Jewish and be a believer in the Christian faith all at the same time. A person can be Italian and a Muslim all at the same time. But I don't believe one can be an Italian and a Christian AND a Muslim all at the same time, and anyone claiming they are religiously Christian AND Muslim at the same time is likely to run into hostility from both faith communities.

 

Bill

[Sputterduck]

There are differences between Jews just as there are differences between Christians. But all Christians believe Jesus was the savior (as far as I'm aware). Jews (who practice Judaism) don't share this belief. It's pretty a simple line of demarcation.

 

 

Some people would say all Christians believe that Jesus is God and that is a pretty simple line of demarcation and since JWs and Mormons don't they aren't Christian.

[Aubrey]

...anyone claiming they are religiously Christian AND Muslim at the same time is likely to run into hostility from both faith communities.

 

Exactly. This is the plight of Christian Jews. You explained it wonderfully!

[elizabeth]

I don't know what you mean here... would you mind clarifying a bit? It is my understanding that Jews believe in God, the God of the Old Testament... and yet there are many Jews who are Jews culturally who do not accept this-- who actually reject it completely. They are still Jews. So a Jewish person can have no spiritual beliefs at all and be a Jew, but not believe in Jesus and be a Jew? Why is that? And why does asking that question clearly show a vast difference in worldview?

Glad to try again. There are many, many Jews who are agnostics. Yes a Jew can self identify as Jewish based on culture not religious beliefs. why ?/Because Jewishness is much more than a religion one can take or leave as the mind ses fit. One can only be born a Jew by being born of a Jewish mother or converting. It is a substantive religion in which diet, ritual, everyday life is infused with Jewishness that is a state of "being " Jewish rather than other or gentile. Asking that question assumes that the end goal of Judaism is the same as that of Christianity. It is not there is no resurrection of the body, no need for belief in a God that provides salvation as for most if not all Jewish believers the end is just that . To ask the question is to reveal that there is not a basic understanding of the Jewsih faith, culture or worldview. The here and now is it for most Jews. No afterlife, certainly no resurrection of the body etc. This vast difference accounts in part for the fact that the Jewish people have separate cemeteries , burial rituals and the like. Thus to ask the question of what a Jew must believe in order to count as a Jewish person is to assume that the end goal of being a self identified Jew is the same as those who claim identification with the Christian community. I am sorry if I am unclear. It is not a good day for me to try to "speak" as I am on massive doses of steroids for an autoimmune issue. Please accept my apologies for what I am sure are garbled words.

[Spy Car]

Exactly. This is the plight of Christian Jews. You explained it wonderfully!

 

You kind of dodged my questions.

 

Would you say Muslims are practicing a form of Christianity?

 

Bill

[Sputterduck]

Glad to try again. There are many, many Jews who are agnostics. Yes a Jew can self identify as Jewish based on culture not religious beliefs. why ?/Because Jewishness is much more than a religion one can take or leave as the mind ses fit. One can only be born a Jew by being born of a Jewish mother or converting. It is a substantive religion in which diet, ritual, everyday life is infused with Jewishness that is a state of "being " Jewish rather than other or gentile. Asking that question assumes that the end goal of Judaism is the same as that of Christianity. It is not there is no resurrection of the body, no need for belief in a God that provides salvation as for most if not all Jewish believers the end is just that . To ask the question is to reveal that there is not a basic understanding of the Jewsih faith, culture or worldview. The here and now is it for most Jews. No afterlife, certainly no resurrection of the body etc. This vast difference accounts in part for the fact that the Jewish people have separate cemeteries , burial rituals and the like. Thus to ask the question of what a Jew must believe in order to count as a Jewish person is to assume that the end goal of being a self identified Jew is the same as those who claim identification with the Christian community. I am sorry if I am unclear. It is not a good day for me to try to "speak" as I am on massive doses of steroids for an autoimmune issue. Please accept my apologies for what I am sure are garbled words.

 

 

Wait, what? Jews don't believe in any kind of afterlife?

[Ibbygirl]

 

I don't comprehend how you could suggest people practicing Christianity are practicing Judaism.

 

 

I don't want to speak for anybody else, but perhaps she is meaning the fact that Christianity came out from Judaism.

[WishboneDawn]

Wait, what? Jews don't believe in any kind of afterlife?

 

Nope. That's a notion Christians picked up from the Greeks.

[Sputterduck]

hmm, elizabeth, this says traditional Judaism does believe in an afterlife and resurrection.

 

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

[Spy Car]

I don't want to speak for anybody else, but perhaps she is meaning the fact that Christianity came out from Judaism.

 

I wouldn't argue with that. Nor with the idea that Islam arose out of Judaism and Christianity. But they are distinct faiths. All with internal disputes about whose way is "correct" and with blurs at the margins. But all with articles of faith that are basic and fundamental to be belief system.

 

If one believes Jesus was the son of God and the savior, one is a Christian. Right?

 

Bill

[Ibbygirl]

Nope. That's a notion Christians picked up from the Greeks.

 

Oh wow. I've never heard that before either. What about Psalm 23?? David ends the psalm by saying "surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all of my days and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever." Dwelling implies being alive and forever...well means forever doesn't it? I'd love to hear the Jewish perspective.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Ibbygirl

[Ibbygirl]

I wouldn't argue with that. Nor with the idea that Islam arose out of Judaism and Christianity. But they are distinct faiths. All with internal disputes about whose way is "correct" and with blurs at the margins. But all with articles of faith that are basic and fundamental to be belief system.

 

If one believes Jesus was the son of God and the savior, one is a Christian. Right?

 

Bill

 

 

Well, I would technically call them a "believer". To be "Christian" means to be "Christ like".

[Spy Car]

Well, I would technically call them a "believer". To be "Christian" means to be "Christ like".

 

Would you stretch it to a "believer in the Christian faith"?

 

Bill

[Impish]

Because if you practice Christianity and you claim your religion is Judaism ("completed", Messianic, or otherwise) you are saying traditional Judaism is inauthentic.

 

Bill

That makes about as much sense as saying someone that practices Buddhism, Wicca, or is Muslim makes Christian traditions inauthentic. What another person's faith is does not invalidate someone else's in their heart, mind, soul.

[Spy Car]

That makes about as much sense as saying someone that practices Buddhism, Wicca, or is Muslim makes Christian traditions inauthentic. What another person's faith is does not invalidate someone else's in their heart, mind, soul.

 

It does if you are practicing "Wicca" but calling your church Christian. You can do it, it's "legal". But you might upset people. KWIM?

 

Bill

[WishboneDawn]

How is this really any different than Protestants be offended by JWs and Mormons calling themselves Christian? Those are new movements, and they diverge quite radically from traditional Christianity, yet people are all over Protestants who don't want JWs and Mormons using the term Christian.

 

Those groups grew out of Christianity. They're a branch of the Christian Tree. Messianic Judaism is more of a graft. Sort of like taking an apple tree, grafting on a few pear branches and then claiming it's a applelish pear tree. No, it's an apple tree with some pear branches.

[Michelle T]

Will give you all the info you need.

 

 

Jews for Jesus is an organization funded and promoted by evangelical Christian churches, primarily Southern Baptist, as a way to convert Jews to Christianity. Their founders and many of their "rabbis" are Christians who are trained in ways to convert Jews without scaring them off.

 

Evangelical Christians donate much, if not most, of the money to the Messianic/Jews for Jesus movement. It's nothing but a covert missionary program to convert Jews who don't understand either Judaism or Christianity.

 

So many Christians seem to think Judaism is just some sort of Christianity without Jesus. It's not. It's a totally different religion, with a different outlook on life. The basis of Christianity is not found in Judaism, nor is it compatible. You cannot be a Jesus-believing Jew. If you are, then you are not a true Jew, who very firmly believes that God is ONE, not a trinity, a human being, someone who walks around on earth, or a spirit.

 

Michelle T

[Michelle T]

To describe people who practice Christianity? That term would be Christian. Messianic Jews are Jewish people who recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

 

True Jews know that Jesus wasn't the messiah. That's why they aren't Christians. People who believe Jesus WAS the messiah are correctly called Christian. Just because you follow another religions holidays doesn't make you that religion, anymore than participating in a sweat lodge makes you a Native American.

Michelle T

[Michelle T]

Yes, I understand where you're coming from. However, as a follower of Christ I do not want to resent Spy Car or anyone else. I don't know his faith. The Jewish people gave us Jesus. Now we who follow the Messiah desire to give Jesus BACK TO THEM!

 

Please remember that most Jewish people do not teach Jesus to their children. Children grow up and it becomes cyclical.

 

I just sent an email to a Messianic Jewish man at the temple I attend on occassion. He is the cantor. When I read his testimony he "resisted" anything Jesus until his sister shared Yeshua with her brother. Beautiful!

 

So, thank G-d that your dh knows Jesus as L-rd! He can now share Messiah with others!! :001_smile:

 

 

Most Jewish people "don't teach Jesus to their children"? Yeah, that's because that would be another religion.

 

Most Christians don't teach Allah to their kids, right? Why not? That's no different than what you are suggesting.

:Michelle T

[Michelle T]

Again, you sound all wise, but you've got it wrong. The religion they are practicing is Judaisim, with the prophesies fulfilled in Jesus.

Christians (meaning those who believe in Jesus but are not of Jewish lineage) have been adopted (or grafted) into the family (or tree). Messianic Jews have (by means of the promise to Abraham and lineage) retain their Jewish roots and many customs, including feasts (albeit more purposeful in light of Yeshua's coming). They have always been in the family, always on the tree. Christians do not need to run out and get circumcised, they do not need to adhere to OT law, they do not need to become Jewish (religion and/or culture). I think you're getting way too confused on this one. See, if a Jewish person (by religion and culture) sees Christ as the Messiah, he does not become Christian as we understand it. He does not get grafted on the tree, he's already there. He retains his Jewish roots (culture and religion, only with Christ as the Redeemer.)

 

 

Jesus may have fulfilled the prophecies Christianity made, but he certainly didn't fulfill any of the Jewish ones. Take a look around you. Is there still war in the world? Cruelty? Poverty? Anything bad? Then the messiah hasn't come, and Jesus wasn't him. Judaism tells us that the messiah will be a regular human being, not god, not divine, not some miraculous birth. He won't need two comings to do his job. All the Jews will be back in Jerusalem. The whole world will worship the one God. Plenty of others, these are just a few. It's pretty clear that according to Jewish tradition, Jesus didn't accomplish what a messiah was to do.

Michelle T

[Michelle T]

Bill, I don't understand. If there were Jews in Jesus' time that accepted him as the Messiah, which the New Testament clearly indicates that there were, then how could the concept of a divine messiah be unknown in Judaism? No snark, just trying to understand what you're saying.

 

Jesus was said to be divine long after his death, not by his followers.

Michelle T

[Cammie]

See...this is why I like Hinduism! I can be a Hindu and believe that Jesus was the son of god and believe that Mohammud was a prophet of god and believe that the trinity is actually Shiva-Bhrama-Vishnu! Ahh the joy of inclusivity - makes like much easier - no need to choose between anything! (Just trying to keep things light folks!)

[Michelle T]

What is the difference btw. a Messianic Jew and Orthodox in terms of belief? Is there a simple resource to explain this? I would really appreciate your helping me gain understanding in this area!

 

Please go here and learn all you need about this subject.

Michelle T

[WishboneDawn]

Or from Jesus.

 

Whose lived in and whose story was written in a world heavily influenced by Greeks.

 

Don't mistake me saying there's a Greek influence on Christian beliefs for saying that those beliefs have no foundation or were simply swiped to prop up a faith.

 

Augustine was quite aware that the Greeks had an influence and he himself was influenced by Plato. His explanation for this was that pagans could be privy to truth from God, that they had some truth, though not all, revealed to them.

[Michelle T]

That may have been true, until Jesus came. He and all of His Jewish followers were still Jews! People can be Jews by heritage, sorry. Look up the definition of a Jew... there are several. I already posted the link several pages back.

 

Main Entry: Jew

Pronunciation: \ˈjü\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French ju, jeu, from Latin Judaeus, from Greek Ioudaios, from Hebrew Yĕhūdhī, from Yĕhūdhāh Judah, Jewish kingdom

Date: 13th century

1 a : a member of the tribe of Judah b : israelite

2 : a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the sixth century b.c. to the first century a.d.

3 : a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people

4 : one whose religion is Judaism

 

Merriam Webster Dictionay

 

By your logic, Martin Luther and all his followers are still Catholic. They started a different religion.

 

While Jesus and his followers may have originally been Jews, they started a different religion, and their later/current followers certainly aren't Jews.

 

By the way, I don't need a definition of Jewish or Judaism. I AM Jewish. Sure, there is Jewish heritage, but Jews for Jesus or Messianic Jews are practicing the Christian RELIGION under the guise of Judaism. They say their version trumps Judaism. They aren't just hanging onto heritage.

Michelle T